Diary of Thomas Burton Esq: Volume 3, January - March 1659. Originally published by H Colburn, London, 1828.
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Wednesday, February 16, 1658–9.
Mr. Bulkeley was speaking, and it seems he first stirred it, having been put on by three ministers, who, it seems, heard Mr. Neville speak words to the same purpose; but there was no information in writing.
Sir Arthur Haslerigge. You ought to be very tender of a member. The charge ought to be certain as to time and place; else it is in vain to produce witnesses to clear a man. He knows not what to plead to.
Mr. Attorney-general. This gentleman has had ill fortune. Not long since, he was accused here of another crime. I would have a time appointed when, for your own honour, and the honour of the gentleman, you will hear this business at the bar; and let the charge be brought in certain, as to the circumstances of time and place, in the nature of an indictment; that the gentleman may know how to make a certain defence.
Colonel Bennet. It is reasonable that an accusation should be certain. The world pass by the circumstances in cases of this nature, and only take a charge subscribed by some person. Godly opposites are apt to consider one another as monsters, and heretics. Let us all live by a law, whatever a man be. He has but an accusation upon him unproved. For a member to be guilty of atheism and blasphemy, you cannot in honour let it go. Let the accusers post down their names, and as to time and place in positive terms; not ambiguous and doubtful, but certain, and appoint a day of hearing. In the meantime, we ought to look upon the person as innocent.
Major-general Kelsey. Consider how to vindicate your own justice. The charge is high, but it becomes you that the charge be certain, and the persons accusing, to affix time and place; and not to appoint a Committee, but to hear it at the bar, and have witnesses on both sides heard.
Mr. Onslow. I would have your members have as much benefit of the law as another. This is not ripe for your judgment. I am sorry it puts out the orders of the day. The charge ought, to have been certain. You ought first to have a charge before you that may circumstantiate time and place. Here is no formal accusation, nor signed. The accusation may slide off.
Mr. Scot. I would have the gentleman that brought in the charge, put it into such a form as he will now abide by. If every thing spoken in discourse be taken from persons, it is hard. What can you have more than a clear renunciation, and an acknowledgment of faith.
Sir Henry Vane. No member of the House ought to take notice of the charge, till it come in writing, subscribed by the accuser. The charge comes not certainly in. It neither comprehends certainty of time, place, fact, or person. When they could accuse our Saviour of nothing else, they brought in blasphemy. (fn. 4) Till this certainty be made out, he ought not to answer.
Mr. Lechmere. It is impossible for any man to make an swer to a charge of this nature; neither time, place, nor person certain. It is your honour that your door is open to formal and regular charges. I would have you lay it aside, till it come in formally.
Major Beake. You have made two precedents. (fn. 5) There was nothing in those two cases but the information of two members. Records were said to be against them, but none were produced. I have observed a great deal of tenderness to this person in all the debate. Have equal respect to all your members.
Order the gentleman that brought in the accusation, at a certain day to bring in a charge; and then order a day to hear both sides. You cannot pass off a matter of this nature without a strict inquiry.
Mr. Steward. I am not to have it laid aside. It is either a great crime or a great calumny. Appoint a time to bring in a formal charge of the crime, and if it come not in that day, then call it a calumny. When the charge is certain, then appoint a day of hearing.
Mr. Mauley. I cannot down with that doctrine that punctilios should be waved. General terms in an accusation will not carry. I shall offer that worthy case of Susanna, (fn. 6) who was acquitted by assigning certainty of time and place. To be accused of words after so long, they had need to be certainly assigned.
Mr. Bulkeley. I am sorry to see this charge compared to Susanna and the monsters of the elders. You will never have a charge of this nature, if you tie persons to sign the charge, and if they prove not all things punctually, then to be left to be undone. They may fail in circumstances, and yet prove the substance.
As I would not have you encourage trivial complaints, so I would not have matters of this nature discouraged. Encourage those that aim at God's glory in their complaints, and distinguish such from mal.cious and light accusations. I cannot assign a time.
It is said, Why not an indictment at law ? I would be tender of life; (fn. 7) but to be capable of sitting in the House, I would not have it passed by. Manifest your prudence at this time. I would have as much charity as any man, if I could hear the gentleman say he did it in heat of discourse.
Sir Anthony Ashley Cooper. A matter of this nature ought to be made clearly out. To make a man an offender for a word, is hard. Manifest and open offences may be punished with more severity. I would have the charge clear, that the defence may also be clear and certain.
Sir Arthur Haslerigge. Here is a high breach of privilege, the highest that ever was but that of the King. (fn. 8) A charge against a member and no hand to it. I would have this considered when you come to speak of your privilege. Therefore I would have no notice taken of it at present; but to vindicate your honour and that of the gentleman, appoint a day when you will be ready to hear any charge against this gentleman. It is a huge breach of your privilege to take notice of this in your book, that further charges shall come in, and yet no charge made.
Mr. Swinfen. If I were now just come into the House, I should not know whether you were proceeding against the person accused or accusing. You seem to lay all upon the accusers, without hearing them. In the accusations against two members, no circumstance of time or place was assigned. You have cast out two members (fn. 9) and committed an accusation against another, (fn. 10) without any circumstance at all, only upon general terms.
Mr. Reynolds. Those members were accused of matters-offact that were upon record. Every man may read it. These are but words. Those gentlemen confessed the facts. That against the other gentleman was by way of petition of some eminent person. Those cases differ clearly.
Mr. Bulkeley. I know the persons that informed me of this so well, that I durst venture to make it good; not that I desire to add fuel to fire, but rather to pass it by, seeing the gentleman seems to disclaim it. I shall acquiesce or proceed, as you please. I know nothing of it myself, but believe it as much as I do any thing that I did not see.
Sir John Lenthall. I am as great a stranger to the gen tleman as to any that I have long known by sight. If you pass by this, I doubt it is not for your honour. It is fit every person should know his accuser; and that all punctilios and circumstances should be as well observed in this House, as in Westminster Hall.
If you cast dirt somewhat will stick. This is as much as ever was laid upon any member. It is likely he might argue in the third person, as I have often done. Let your doors be open to all complaints, but let things of this nature come in formally; so that if the accuser fail, either this House may give us satisfaction, or else we may have it in Westminster Hall, against such clamours.
Sir William Wheeler. I am sorry to see time spent about words. Clamour is a good word. (fn. 11)
The House must be possessed of something, but you are possessed of nothing. There must either be a charge, viva voce, in the House, or in writing from without doors. The gentleman can say nothing. You ought to make no order at all in this case, because not possessed of it.
Colonel Allured. This is a high breach of privilege, to accuse an honourable member. Westminster Hall would not receive such a charge. I suspect it, because the gentleman said he kept it in his pocket a fortnight. It may be out of design to dishonour his great business to-morrow. There is no certainty.
Colonel Birch. I am of opinion that this is not before you. I would have it laid aside till it come in formally; and go to the business of the report from your treasury. I am glad the word charged can admit of so candid an interpretation. I always understood it in the worst sense. I shall now take it in the best sense.
Lord Lambert. I could pass by an atheist, a drunkard, &c., in Westminster Hall, or any other place, but not sit with him here. I would have nothing done or said in this House that may exclude just complaints against any member, be they brothers, or never so near. I have not much known the gentleman, but have heard well of him. Strong conclusions have been drawn from disputes, even by pious men, as the minister told you. I have known a charge brought in, and no particular time nor place. I shall not mention it. It wanted both circumstances. I would have you lay aside the debate till the charge come formally before you.
Mr. Bodurda. I would have it ordered that a week's time be allowed to bring in a formal charge against this gentleman; and that the gentleman that informs you, give notice to the gentleman that informed him, to be here.
Mr. Disbrowe. I would have had all reflections spared. It tends to grieve the spirits of one another. I would have no question put, lest it be understood that you shut your doors against complaint. I would have the question, if the question shall now be put.
Mr. Onslow. Consider the consequences, to lay aside the debate. A member singly accuses a member of atheism and blasphemy, and he denies it. You pass it by. Either he shall go away as a guilty person, or else you shall be strangely thought on without doors.
Lord Lambert. I should be loth that this should be carried in the negative. If in the affirmative, it will be a kind of proclamation to all to come in and accuse your members; an invitation to all inquirers.
Mr. Reynolds. There are five hundred members, and every member might have such a charge against him. They would take up every one a day, and then the Dutch might indeed give you 2000l. a day, as it was moved before. (fn. 12) I would have you go to the orders of the day. This gentleman's business (fn. 13) is to come in to-morrow. I would not have that to be shut out by any other business.
Sir. Henry Vane. This business came unfortunately upon you, to hinder the orders of the day for money. I would have Mr. Neville's business, that should have been heard tomorrow, give way to the business of the Accounts, and appoint another day for Mr. Neville's other business.
It was ordered to be heard on Saturday next, between him and the late Sheriff of Berkshire. (fn. 14)
As to the charge against Mr. Neville, (fn. 15) it fell asleep after five hours' debate, nobody knows how. Mr. Neville was present all the time.
It was moved, that the Accounts from the Commissioners of the Army and Navy, &c., be brought in in the morning, and it was ordered accordingly. (fn. 16)
The order of the day was read in relation to the great debate adjourned. Ordered to be resumed to-morrow morning. (fn. 17)