The Diary of Thomas Burton: 9 March 1658-9

Pages 90-111

Diary of Thomas Burton Esq: Volume 4, March - April 1659. Originally published by H Colburn, London, 1828.

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Wednesday, March 9, 1658–9.

The House met, at almost twelve.

Mr. Speaker took the chair.

Mr. Scot stood up to speak to the debate about the Scotch and Irish members, but was taken down.

Mr. Trevor, to the orders of the House. I move that for your safety, you would, till you recover your health, for a week's time appoint another in your place. I move for Sir Lislebone Long.

It was moved that it was never used to appoint another Speaker, while another was in the chair.

Mr. Fowell said that in the case of Sir Thomas Widdrington, another was chosen while he was in the chair; but that case differed. It was upon his desire. (fn. 1)

Mr. Speaker. I desire to be discharged. I am sorry I should retard your business one half hour. (fn. 2)

Sir Arthur Haslerigge. I move that by no means he be discharged; but only for a time, to recover his health.

It was always the care of this House to choose one that was no way influenced by the Court. I shall name a fit person (though not of the Long Robe) Mr. Knightley.

Mr. Knightley. I am of the wrong Robe; this is more like a weed than a garment that I have. I have worn a gown at the University and the Inns of Court, but never had the honour. (fn. 3)

I make it my humble motion that you would not put that burthen upon one of so short a robe and so short a measure. He that made that chair made it with strong arms, knowing the weight of it. I have both infirmity of mind and body to make me incapable.

Mr. Speaker, by leave of the House, left the chair, and went home to his own House, (fn. 4) very ill.

Sir Anthony Ashley Cooper. I move that, till mace come in, none can speak.

Others moved, that last Parliament, and this Parliament, the House did choose their Speaker before the mace was on the table.

Others again said, "You are a House without a Speaker."

Sir Arthur Haslerigge moved again for Mr. Knightley.

Colonel Fitx James put the question for Sir Lislebone Long, but was denied.

Sir Lislebone Long. I know no incapacity upon me to serve you as a member, but many incapacities to serve you in that chair. I am beholden to Sir Arthur Haslerigge, that told me of my incapacity.

The person propounded has much more experience than I; and if he decline it, there are many fitter than I.

Sir Anthony Irby moved for Sir Lislebone Long.

Sir Anthony Ashley Cooper. As Sir Lislebone Long was first propounded, he must be first put. Therefore I would have the question put for his supplying the chair for a week.

Mr. Bulkeley. Seeing you are agreed of the person, put the time indefinite; viz. till the Speaker shall be in a condition to serve you there again.

Mr. Scot moved against it.

Sir Arthur Haslerigge. I was against Sir Lislebone Long's coming to the chair; but we must look to him as well as we can.

No member can put any question other than for taking the chair, and the person pitched upon ought to obey the sense of the House, and of himself, without the ceremony of leading, to go to the chair.

Sir Walter Earle. The ceremony of leading is not Parliamentary.

Sir Lislebone Long, in obedience thereunto, was coming along to the chair, but Mr. St. John and Mr. Gerrard came up and led him, and he took the chair at one.

Sir Arthur Haslerigge moved to enter this order, viz:—

Ordered, that in respect of Mr. Speaker's indisposition of body, and at his earnest request, Sir Lislebone Long be desired to take the chair in his absence, occasioned by his said indisposition of health, until he shall recover his health, and no longer. (fn. 5)

It was moved to adjourn for an hour.

Mr. Scot. I move to adjourn till to-morrow, else to hear me speak to the question upon which the House was in debate before, about the Scotch and Irish members. I hope those gentlemen sensible of their inconveniency by intruding into our legislature.

In the Long Parliament all monopolizers were turned out. (fn. 6) We are not come to rags and papers, but we are already come to stones, sand, and ballast. (fn. 7)

The claim of this question was made the first day, (fn. 8) and has been often claimed upon several occasions.

The question is, if it be not now seasonable to settle this.

I am of opinion that Scotland and Ireland should be repre sented, nor do I except against the distribution. I would have Jamaica (fn. 9) represented, and all the parts of England equally represented, better than now. (fn. 10) We are little beholden to the last Parliament, to leave us to such an unequal election and distribution.

It is said, it is not ingenuity now to question it If I find not ingenuity, I am not so obliged.

First you would have a single person bounded; and then let go the bounds. (fn. 11) The like of another House; thus gaining from bough to bough, till they be out of the distance of our recovery.

We are not to compliment now, when the life and liberty of the nation is at stake. Paul thought, when his life lay at stake, he might lawfully make a division in the council by saying he was a Pharisee. (fn. 12)

Salus populi is above all rules. I may take hold of that to save a sinking perishing nation.

We all say the Protector is Chief Magistrate in exercitio, possession, and occupancy. It is not owned that he is in by the Petition and Advice. It appears not so to you. You have the best title, being in possession, and you may give him the best title that ever King of England had.

Because there is an intimation in the Petition and Advice to summon members for Scotland and Ireland, therefore it is said, they must be called to sit here. By the same rule, there was an intimation to have a House of Lords, therefore a Lords' House was called. Therefore it is a good Lords' House, and therefore those gentlemen are good members, by the same rule.

I cannot understand that the law should be by any such intendment. Again:—I would have none to serve either for England, Scotland, or Ireland, but natives; not but that they can speak the language. I say not otherwise.

My motion therefore is, that those gentlemen may withdraw till this question about the other House be passed; and then I shall as freely as any man give my vote to declare their right of sitting with us. (fn. 13)

Mr. Drake. That motion is disorderly, incongruous, and disingenuous, that the persons who have attended this debate nine days should withdraw; after you had called all out of the chambers.

It is proceeding without an example, to fall into new matter when a question is half put.

It is irregular. While you are debating about members of another House, you fall into debate who are members of your own House.

Sir Arthur Haslerigge. Nought is so proper in the midst of any debate. I appeal to you, now you are in the chair. If I see but one man in this House that ought not to sit, it is a fundamental order to examine that person's fitness before you do any thing.

I was, in the interval of a Parliament, called up to another House. I durst not go without your consent, nor will I go out from hence unless you beat me out; I mean, command me out.

Consider the case of King (fn. 14) and Mr. Sadler. (fn. 15) This is the same case. If this be not to the order of the House, then the House is without order, which cannot be. Is it fit that those that have no right nor foundation should legify amongst us ? As was moved before, by the same rule that sixty are brought in now, three hundred may be brought in next time.

Colonel Fielder took him down, but it was not admitted; for he did speak to the orders of the House, and he began with it, and would conclude to the orders of the House. He cited the case of the five members. (fn. 16)

Mr. Trevor. It is a constant order of the House, that no new matter should come in, in the midst of a debate. It is utterly unseasonably moved. I beseech you, go on to the question that is before you.

Sir Richard Temple. Last night I gave you my reason why this was not irregular, by a precedent frequently exercised here. (fn. 17) If any gentleman come in between affirmative and negative, any gentleman may move that he withdraw. This is as to a rightful member; a fortiori, he that is no member, or his being a member disputable. Any thing offered you concerning your privilege, is never unseasonable.

There are divers gentlemen that sit here that have no right to sit. Formerly it was waved, because we were unanimous in our debate, and but a few of those members yet come over. (fn. 18) The best authority they have is but by implication. If the affirmative were put, you might, even before the negative were put, fall into debate of your privilege, it being a fundamental order. Besides, another question, touching your being called to the chair, has intervened, so that any man is free to make any new motion.

Mr. Knightly. Vigilantibus, non dormientibus, subveniunt leges. The addition of one destroys as well as the substraction of one. Add one to 11, and it destroys the number, as well as to make them 19.

This debate about the Lords has been a great rock, and will be, till we come to a constitution.

These members come here without any semblance of a law. There is no colour of law for their distribution.

The Chief Magistrate may create a borough.

There are six boroughs in Northamptonshire that have no right to send members: viz. Wellingborough, Kettering, &c. I would have these persons, to have a right to sit here, or else to have Parliaments of their own. I will reflect upon none. Many persons that sit here for those places are very worthy and have done great service. I shall deliver no opinion in this case, but the debate is proper before you.

Colonel Cromwell. Mr. Scot has reflected upon them as rubbish; ballast, &c. (fn. 19)

The debate was improperly moved. Some exception lies against persons that now sit here. Besides. those members, one I see in my eye (fn. 20) that has no right to sit. Again, divers have not taken the oath. (fn. 21) I would have this debate waved, and the question put.

Mr. Scot. I meant not of the persons, but that there was monopoly upon the ballast. I honour the persons.

Mr. St. Nicholas. I am but a learner of your orders; yet I take it to be according to a constant order that this debate comes properly before you. Did you not, in the case of Mr. Jones, (fn. 22) declare that a case of privilege should be preferred before any other debate.

I move to do justa, juste. Many exceptions have been made against laws passed in this House. Let us have no more. The claim was made before; (fn. 23) I would have you now proceed upon it, being properly before you. If you please, I would have a bill brought in to declare their rights.

Colonel Birch. If this question had not been moved before, it had been otherwise. This was made when you were in debate of the single person; and then it was waved, when the question was not half put. For the very cause that was moved in the case of Paul, (fn. 24) he thought it prudence to raise a quarrel in the council; this comes in bare-faced as a quarrel. I hope he (fn. 25) does not compare this council to that council.

Colonel White. I am glad this debate comes before you. I wish it had not come unseasonably, but I am sure it is now seasonably before you. If you admit them to sit, it is destructive to the very foundation of this House. If they sit, neither by that common law nor custom, how can they sit ? It destroys your being.

If this vote be carried, and the consequence prove bad, or prove it good, it will be said it was done, coram non judice, by persons that had no right to sit. I would have you, before you put any other question, put this question, whether the members for Ireland and Scotland have any right to sit here.

Mr. Bodurda. If this debate be admitted, where will it end ? The next debate will be, about those that have not taken the oath. Then, about those whose elections are questionable.

Almost sixty of England are in dispute, and some of them determined by your Committee of Privileges, which is your greatest Committee. All those reports must be taken in, before you proceed.

It may be added, that charges are depending against some members, and charges ready to be offered against others. This cannot be denied more than the other.

I hope none of these attempts to divide this House will prevail. Attempts to divide this from the other House; none of those have yet prevailed. I hope none of these will.

Mr. Morrice. It will be an inexcusable thing in you to admit a vote to those that have no tongue.

This question has been long in the womb. I wish it may not prove, when it is born, like Richard III. born with teeth.

First settle your own House before the other.

The wisdom of prevention is better than that of remedy. We ought first to clear the fountain.

Many sit here to whom we may say, as the king said to him not having his wedding garment on. (fn. 26)

It may be, they will not be speechless, but say they come in on the Petition and Advice.

Not one gentleman of the long robe has categorically said this Petition and Advice is a law. They have argued, ab incommodo, which is no argument.

If I should undertake to determine law, I should be checked with a ne sutor ultra, crepidam.

Admit it, ex hypothesi, to be a law, yet if the distribution— (fn. 27)

Sylvius, his Empleden, has taught me to wish that those three sticks were all bundled together.

If we are inseparable, we are insuperable, but it must be an Act of Parliament that must settle them. And I question whether it must not also have an Act of their own Parliaments.

I look upon his Highness as a planet of most high and benign influence.

Periculosum est, facere quod non decet.

If the Chief Magistrate may arbitrarily and absolutely call whom he pleases, he may call what number, and from what place he pleases.

It is the Pope's policy to have as many Bishops in Italy as in any other place, to carry on his interest.

There is no law either of God or man for these persons to sit. I would have them withdraw, till you have passed this question.

Serjeant Maynard. My learned countryman has made you a fine posy this morning. I grant inseparable is insuperable: but how this is applicable to Scotland and Ireland, if you exclude them, I understand not.

When an addition is put to a question, you can put nought, till the main question be put. You ought to proceed to the question.

I am one of those that are very tender to affirm the Petition and Advice for a law, but I say it is as much a law as any that have been made of late. It is a Parliament must determine this. Judges upon their oaths, and Justices of Peace upon their oaths, act upon these laws. You come hither upon that law. I know no honest man can, otherwise, without future hazard, act upon any of these laws.

Whether what I offer please or displease, it comes from a heart that intends it for your service.

Have not you called yourselves the Parliament of England, Scotland and Ireland? Have not you called your Chief Magistrate so ?

You are a Parliament by remitter. You take upon you to bind those nations by the laws you make here. Will you have none here to represent them? Is this just ?

Anciently, kings sent to Scotland to send burgesses hither. (fn. 28) Whether they sat or no, I know not. So from Calais and Anglesea. Both Houses sat together. (fn. 29) The Chief Magistrate might call who he pleased. In the 33 Edward I. he called from Ireland.

These are called by writ. They are united to us: Scotland and Ireland, I mean.

Such a confusion is upon us, I know not, for my part, how to get out of it. Let us go to peace; not to contend with one another.

Interest will lead very far.

You outed forty monopolizers. (fn. 30) Many things have been done. Divers persons have turned out members in a strange way. I shall not stir up; but press unity. I have not said all that I might say. I cannot tell what they say of us abroad. (fn. 31) We have put ourselves into such a condition, that we know not which way to go. I know not to what misery and misfortune we are going.

I know no other remedy but to put the question to the vote, as it is before you, and wave these collateral debates.

Lord Lambert. That which the Serjeant did boldly affirm was, that the Petition and Advice was as much a law as any law of late. I doubt this argument goes a great way to restore Charles Stuart. The Petition and Advice is a felo de se, as to this very point.

I grant it is not proper to interpose in a debate between two questions; but, in a matter of this nature, I hope it is not unseasonable. As to that argument, that all that is done already is void if you exclude those; it is no such matter.

If any member be cast out, being unduly returned, surely that law is a law, though made while he was here. If a report come in a Committee, you will receive that report without asking whether such persons that were of the Committee were present at it.

This differs from that case, which is moved by Mr. Bodurda. (fn. 32) This is not about persons, whether Thomas or Robert, but whether such a borough shall send members. You had one borough sent two members that had right but to send one.

I move to put this into a way of debate, before you put any other question.

Mr. Solicitor-general. This question is not likely soon to be determined, and you may as well determine all reports from your Committee of Privileges. (fn. 33) If I knew that that Committee had voted a member out, that sits now, or two or three more that have no right, if I knew this, I may interpose in any of your debates, and say this must be determined, in regard it concerns your privilege, and all other business must stand. Is this ingenuous ?

My motion is to put the natural question, "to transact," &c.

Colonel Terrill. I move that those members withdraw.

Admisso uno absurdo, mille sequuntur. You are come to that, then, that either we must be slaves or freemen. There were two sorts of villains. He that confessed himself a villain, it was entailed upon his heirs. We have been slaves to our servants. Let us not be slaves by our own records.

Whenever writs went to those places, (fn. 34) it was only to consult of things concerning that nation, and no otherwise. Shall we make ourselves slaves by the votes of those that have no right to sit with us.

There was never any order of the House in this case. This is primœ impressionis. A number of persons, sixty, sit amongst us, that have no right. Six or seven carry a cause now. It concerns us to look about us. I must say, under favour of that Serjeant, (fn. 35) that the Petition and Advice is not law. Bring in the Record, and see.

Any man that can but read English will say they had no right to be called here.

We sit not by that. (fn. 36) Our writ is as it was anciently. If otherwise, we could no more question them than they us.

We have voted two Houses. (fn. 37) It is a plain implication that it was not a House before, but of our constitution. If this business be not now seasonable, it is never seasonable. It is said we are in confusion if we do it. I am sure we are confounded if we do it not.

I beseech you on behalf of all the people of England that you would not pass this. Not that I am against their sitting, but not without a law. Take it into debate how they may sit by a law. In the mean time I desire those persons may be so ingenuous as to withdraw, while our own freedoms are in debate.

If Serjeant Maynard had not well understood the law, he had not been a Serjeant now.

Mr. Swinfen. I like not that reflection about being Serjeant. He might be Serjeant to —. (fn. 38) He well deserves it.

I am not much moved with his noise of our being enslaved. To reject those things which tend to the setting up and building a constitution, is to bring us into slavery indeed.

That gentleman not long since did determine that the Lord Protector, by right, had no power to call this Parliament. (fn. 39) If you be no Parliament, I know not that there is any civil power. Then the army does enslave us.

Consider whether we cast ourselves not absolutely under a military power, by rejecting all the civil power we have now in being.

I hear divers confess this debate is not ingenuous nor orderly, but our being is concerned.

This case is no more than that of those that sit upon an undue election. All that is done, while they are here, is effectual. It differs from the case of a stranger. Sitting by writ, they are members, de facto, till the contrary be adjudged.

This objection was never offered before in all this debate, Since they were admitted all along to the debate, why should they now be excluded ? You never cause any to withdraw, till their cases be determined.

If you please, adjourn the debate about the other House, and take it up to-morrow.

Mr. Hobart. We have the worst fortune that ever Parliament had. First, about bounding the single person; then about bounding the other House. Now it is denied that you are judges of your own members. To clear this, as to your own foundation, is the most material. It was never told you that the Petition and Advice was a law.

It is told (fn. 40) you that writs were sent for Ireland, but tbat was never but in cases of their own to consult. That case of Edward I. was so. England was always jealous to incorporate with any.

When King James came to the crown rightfully, by joining both Houses, he moved for an union of both nations, but the Parliament were jealous then. The King was apprehensive of their jealousy, and moved that the Commons in both places might be called. They came, and what did they do, but consider to repeal laws that had provided towards an union ? (fn. 41)

Vindicate your own right, and take care of incorporations: and while you are in this debate cause the persons concerned to withdraw.

Mr. Trevor. The question offered was, whether you will now take this matter into consideration. I would have you put that question.

Mr. Attorney-general. It is an easy matter to suggest aught to be matter of weight and consequence, and easy to find persons to second it; and, if it lay on life and death, this must come in.

If these men come not here, I doubt they will have Parliaments of their own.

Put the question whether you will at this time admit this debate.

Mr. Fagg. Any person may offer an addition to this question.

It is a standing order of the House, that if any member come in between affirmative and negative, he must withdraw. Divers returns for Ireland are not made. You are not so near a question as is moved to you. I think it is very regular to proceed upon the matter now in debate.

Sir Walter Earle. If you will look into your books, you will find no adjournment of the debate. The books were found accordingly.

Mr. Speaker reported the debate.

Sir Thomas Wroth. I move to adjourn this debate till tomorrow.

Mr. Steward. If you had any debate before you, I should not be against an adjournment; but you have no debate regularly before you. The debate yesterday was at an end.

Mr. Knightley. If I had a report to offer you, concerning bringing in any member, I would be bold to offer it; though you had ordered to adjourn, and nought to intervene.

Colonel Morley. If that gentleman have liberty to speak every second man, pray let me have my turn.

I think the debate comes properly before you. I find no colour of law for their sitting. If you please to adjourn this debate till to-morrow morning.

Sir Henry Vane. I could not attend you yesterday in your great debate.

If I understand any thing of order, you have been out of order ever since you sat. Till this was cleared you ought to have done nought but choose your Speaker.

It arises thus to me. As your question was, last Parliament, whether you would keep out so many members (fn. 42) as that those that were in, might make the Petition and Advice; now, the question is, whether you shall take in so many as are not members that may confirm it; or for you to transact with those persons here that have no foundation, to transact with persons that have no law to be another House. By this means you have subverted your own foundation. Your wisdom will be concerned in it, to part with a prize in your hands that you know not how to manage. Again, it must be considered that they should withdraw, while this debate is afoot. Otherwise, they will hang upon you perpetually as a negative. As you lay your foundation, so will the weight of it be. You will look for peace and have none.

The vote for the single person passed with the greatest unanimity that ever was. When a man is asleep, he finds no hunger till he wake. I doubt the people of England will be hungry when they awake.

A greater imposition never was by a single person upon a Parliament, to put sixty votes upon you. By this means, it shall be brought upon you insensibly, to vote by Scotch and Irish members, to enforce all your votes hereafter.

Mr. Bayless. It is against the orders of the House, to call the House in the midst of a debate; for this is a calling of the House.

Mr. Bodurda. I move, that your question be whether, at this time, you will take this business into consideration.

Sir John Northcote. I move to adjourn. I know what sad fate attended one night's debates. I wish it may not be our fate. There has been nought but breaking orders of the House these four days. I would have the debate adjourned at large.

Mr. Attorney-general. I move, to propose a question, and then adjourn.

Mr. Neville. The first must be, whether, when the question comes, they must withdraw; for if persons concerned may vote in their own cause, then it is as broad as long.

If ever there was a cause for this debate in this world, it is now; for you are, for aught I know, going to give away the nation; so that there is a necessity of determining if they will withdraw.

Serjeant Maynard. I move to adjourn the debate generally. The night will overtake you, before you can settle where to fix. Take it up in the morning, and debate it out.

Colonel White. Adjourn the debate upon the question proposed.

Colonel Cromwell. I move, not only to take this into debate, about the Scotch and Irish members, but also to determine about those that sit, and have not taken the oath. (fn. 43)

Sir Arthur Haslerigge. Very well moved.

Mr. Trevor. Make your question certain, and then adjourn.

Sir Arthur Haslerigge. I would have this debate ended before we rise. We are upon the unum necessarium. When I went to dinner, you were upon this debate, and have been three hours upon it. Whoever say that they (fn. 44) are upon a right foot, are surely not of the Long Robe, nor ancient Parliament men.

We are the sole judges of our own members. No writ from without can bring in members upon us. The Petition and Advice cures that vice.

I am well provided to sit it out till nine, ten, twelve; till it be determined; and till then, I shall not be satisfied with any vote. I shall lay my claim, constantly and continually.

He was full of jests, and in great heart to day. He turned from the Chair, and they called him to speak to the Chair. He said:

I am not bound always to look you in the face like children, to see if you have a penny in your forehead. The gentleman that cried, "Speak to the Chair," is behind me. We are now upon a new foot; we have a new Speaker. A new debate is now come in; so that we cannot return to the old debate. If you please to adjourn, I shall not take any advantage, though I am well provided for it.

Sir Anthony Ashley Cooper and Sir Richard Temple moved that the persons concerned might withdraw. They claimed it as their privilege.

Mr. Lechmere. The question now is, whether the interloping question shall prevail. I move, that you would state a question.

Captain Baynes. It is too late to state a question now.

Mr. Speaker was going to leave the chair, and adjourn it generally.

Mr. Trevor very angrily said, he ought not to leave the chair, without directions of the House.

Sir George Booth. Leave the debate generally without a question, and it is fair for all sides.

Colonel Mildmay. I would not have any question put, till the members (fn. 45) be withdrawn.

Captain Whalley. By that rule, if two or three members stand up, and charge half the House, then must they all withdraw. I would have it first determined, what shall be the matter of your debate. The proper question is about the other House.

Mr. Scot. Whether is it more ingenuous to dispute it now, or when the law is passed ? Will you leave the nation to dispute it afterwards ? That is not so ingenuous.

Colonel Birch. You are now upon another debate, whether you will put any question at all. If you thus rise without a question, you are where you were in the morning. You are now doing that which was never done in Parliament before; but, before you rise, put this question, what shall be your debate to-morrow.

Colonel Okey. I move that the persons withdraw.

Mr. Starkey. This is a begging the question, to move that they shall withdraw. It is not to the persons, but to the things; to the right of the places that sent them.

Mr. Hewley. This is a division from part of the question, like the division of the harlot's child. (fn. 46) This is not the unum necessarium, thus to divide and dismember a question.

Mr. Young. I move that the members withdraw. The last Parliament, the House adjudged the case in the ab sence of the persons, above one hundred that were kept out. (fn. 47)

Sir Henry Vane. Of necessity you must first come to that question, whether they shall withdraw: else you break all orders. They will never suffer themselves to be brought to the question. They will keep off all questions.

Mr. Knightley. In the call of your House, I told you one borough sent two members that had right but to send one. The modesty of those gentlemen was such that both withdrew. I hope these gentlemen will in modesty withdraw. They may be at the debate, but they must of necessity withdraw before the question.

Sir Walter Earle agreed what was last moved to be orderly.

Mr. Goodrick. They ought not to withdraw. Put the question, whether you will have any question to intervene.

Sir Anthony Athley Cooper. They ought to withdraw. (He cited Mr. Danvers' case. (fn. 48) ) If they may have a vote in this case, it will be in their power to keep this vote off themselves all the Parliament. They are most worthy persons; but let us consider the consequence.

Colonel Cox. These members were never questioned when they sat upon the Instrument of Government, (fn. 49) Then they came again upon the Petition and Advice, and sat, and were never questioned. They have sat now upon the Petition and Advice. I would have this debate waved.

Sir Arthur Haslerigge. We sat upon another foot before. (fn. 50) The Protector is sworn to call Parliaments according to law. Here is a law for an English Parliament; but none for Scotland nor Ireland.

He was taken down, having spoken.

Mr. Bulkeley. The consequence will be dangerous, to throw out, not only the members, but the union, for want of a formality. I am not of opinion that this debate is well timed, now.

I shall sit down under any event, whatever it be. You are upon a great point.

These persons have formerly contributed to your settlement, and have done you faithful service here and elsewhere. I had rather you should put off the other question than go on in this.

It will male audire abroad, to cause sixty members to withdraw, and go very far to annul whatever you have done this month. I shall offer an expedient.

I desire to carry my eyes in my head, and in carrying on my duty to have an eye to my danger. We have been broken often, and may be hereafter: You are a free, a full Parliament. Look not back. Let all nations, soldiers and others, know by your declaration, that it shall be high treason and confiscation to attempt any thing upon the person of your Chief Magistrate. It may conduce to your quiet, be very much for your service, in justly carrying on the debate.

Mr. Knightley. Put it in two questions. I shall not be against it.

1. That it shall be high treason to attempt aught upon the person of his Highness.

2. That it shall be high treason to attempt upon this House.

This was done in January 41, when the Committee of Parliament adjourned to Grocers' Hall. (fn. 51)

Sir Henry Vane. Keep to your debate. You have two hares a-foot You will lose both. What can you do, but declare? You cannot make it a law.

Sir Arthur Haslerigge. I like this vote very well. I have exceeding fidelity to his person. If we stick together, if we were turned out naked, we should deal with all the world. That it may be high treason also to dissolve this House. I am ready to give my affirmative to both. I hope the question was well digested before it was offered. If we two unite, and the representative of the people, who can balk us ? This will secure your fears.

Sir Anthony Ashley Cooper. I like the thing very well, but it comes not in seasonably. Be the thing never so good, it ought not to break in upon this debate. Divert not upon this question.

Colonel Terrill seconded that motion.

Mr. Goodrick moved to third the motion, that the question be put, to make it high treason to attempt upon his Highness, or upon any member of this House.

Mr. Sadler. This last motion is not seasonable. It is the greatest compliance to fear to express your fears. I have heard it said, that but for distempers in the body it would be immortal. It is not your vote that will secure you. It must be wisdom and justice that must secure. More Babylon is within us than without us, by falling upon petty babbling things.

This question last moved, my heart goes along with it, but I think it is not seasonable now. Nought should divert you from this debate about your own foundations.

The case now in hand does vastly differ from my case (fn. 52) or any particular case. I should not have stirred the question; but now it is stirred, it concerns you. I think there is much more for their sitting here than has been said; but the question now is, whether this question be offered regularly.

To lay down a general rule, that no other question should be put, is against all orders. Any addition may yet be offered. Admit it had been put, that no addition should be put.

The very words of the question would have put you on this debate. This House, it is not complete. If a gentleman has shut the gallery door upon six score of your members, you are not a House then. The same argument if six score were brought in, and thus were added two Houses together.

When your question was put, divers were withdrawn. I asked them why. They ingenuously said, why should they give their votes, in a matter of this consequence ? If you should leave it to their prudence, I believe they would withdraw. My reason is, that I believe they knew all the laws of nature and man were against being judges and parties. It is clear they ought to be at the debate to say all they can for themselves and the nation, but not to be here at the question.

Serjeant Maynard. I move to adjourn upon that question before you, as to the right of the Scotch and Irish members. Many of us want refreshment.

Mr. Chaloner. We sit, still. Many have gone put before, to dinner; and now I believe some are going out to supper, and we sit, still. I pray we may adjourn.

Serjeant Maynard. I would have no question put, and then no man is prejudiced; for it will be an admitting them to have votes who are now in dispute.

Mr. Trevor. I have as much reason to move to adjourn as any man. I would have you order it and put no question. It may be moved, their withdrawing, to-morrow, notwithstanding this question.

Sir Arthur Haslerigge moved to adjourn the debate generally.

The debate was adjourned at large accordingly, till tomorrow, at eight in the morning. And the House rose at past five.

I went to inquire of Committees sitting, but none sat, it was so late; only the grand Committee of Grievances adjourned till to-morrow.


  • 1. See vol. i. p. 369.
  • 2. "Mr. Speaker, being in the chair, and very much indisposed in his health, acquainted the House, that he came to the chair with a great desire to serve the House; but their sittings had been so extraordinary, and their business such, and so requiring it, that he was utterly disabled to serve them as he would, for the present. That it was a great grief of mind to him to retard the public business, though but for one half hour, or more, as it had been this morning. That he found himself grow weaker and weaker; and therefore humbly prayed he might be totally discharged; or otherwise, that he might have so much respite, at least, granted to him, as that, by the blessing of God, he might recover some better measure of health, and be enabled to return again to their service." Journals.
  • 3. Of being a barrister.
  • 4. "The Serjeant attended him witch the mace, out of the House, to his coach, and afterwards brought the mace back, and placed it below, under the table." Journals.
  • 5. "Mr. Chute, their worthy and impartial Speaker, finding himself indisposed, and tired out with long debates and late sitting, desired to be dismissed the service; but the House having a great value for him, would not accept of his resignation, but dispensed with his attendance until he should recover his health, by withdrawing into the country, or otherwise, as he should think it, and to supply his place, in the mean time, Mr. Longe, Recorder of London, was made choice of." Brief Narrative, pp. 347, 348.
  • 6. "Sir John Culpeper, of Kent, a person of great reputation," says Rushworth, "and who afterwards, during the war, was with the king at Oxford, said, in the Parliament (1640); that these monopolists and projectors were a nest of wasps, or swarm of vermin, and like the frogs of Egypt, had got possession of our dwellings, scarce a room free from them. "They sup in our cup (wine), dip in our dish (licence to dress in taverns),| sit by our fire (coals), are in the dye-vat, wash-howl (soap), and powdering-tub (salt), and share with the butler in his box (cards and dice). They have marked and sealed us from head to foot, and will not bate us a pin. (Beavers, felts, bonelace, &c. pins.) We may not buy our own clothes without their brokage." Hist. Coll. (1706), iii. 40. "Nov. 9. 1640. The House resolved that all projectors and unlawful monopolists, and such as lately had a share in, or now receive benefit from any project or monopoly, or have procured any warrant to molest such as refuse to comply with them, be disabled by order of the House to sit therein. It was ordered that Mr. Speaker should issue out writs to choose new members in their room; and that if any member knew of such, he should discover them." Ibid. pp. 267, 268. "The Commons," says Catharine Macaulay, "having secured the two notorious offenders, Strafford and Laud, mortified the Church, and put the ecclesiastical affairs of the kingdom in some train of reformation: they took into consideration the general beads of their civil grievances. They cancelled all the patents which had been granted for monopolies, as contrary to express statutes; declared every one concerned in them delinquents; and expelled all their members who were monopolists or projectors." History (1769), ii. 389. "Jan. 21. 1640–1. The Commons excluded four of their members, Mr. William Sandys, Sir John Jacob, Mr. Thomas Webb, and Mr. Edmund Wyndham, for being monopolists, according to a former order of that House." Part. Hist. (1763), ix. 92.
  • 7. See infra. Among the "Licences," which "the King" recalled by a "Proclamation at York, April 9, 1639," is one for "gathering of rags." Rushworth, iii. 39, 40.
  • 8. See vol. iii. pp. 28, 29.
  • 9. See ibid. p. 102, note *.
  • 10. See ibid, p. 74, note.
  • 11. Mr. Bethel, contrasting the "most open" with the "more prudent," says, the latter "waved bounding of the Chief Magistrate, under pretence of first settling the constitution of the Government." Brief Narrative, p. 344.
  • 12. Acts, xxiii. 6.
  • 13. See vol. iii. p. 71, note †.
  • 14. See ibid. pp. 76, 77.
  • 15. See ibid. pp. 560, 580.
  • 16. See ibid. pp. 92, 93.
  • 17. See supra, p. 87.
  • 18. See vol. iii. p.325, note †.
  • 19. See supra, p. 93.
  • 20. Probably Sir A. Haslerigge.
  • 21. See vol. iii. pp. 68—70.
  • 22. Ibid. p. 233.
  • 23. See supra, p. 93.
  • 24. See supra, p. 94.
  • 25. Mr. Scot.
  • 26. "How earnest thou in hither ?" Mat. xxii. 12.
  • 27. Blank in the MS.
  • 28. See infra, p. 101.
  • 29. See vol. ii. p. 349, ad fin.
  • 30. See supra, p. 93.
  • 31. Ibid. p. 87.
  • 32. See supra, p. 98.
  • 33. Ibid.
  • 34. Ibid. p. 100.
  • 35. Maynard, supra, p. 99.
  • 36. The Petition and Advice.
  • 37. See vol. iii. p. 366.
  • 38. Blank in the MS.
  • 39. See vol. iii. p. 223, 224, 581.
  • 40. See supra, p. 100.
  • 41. See Parl. Hist. (1763,) v. 90– 97.
  • 42. See vol. i. p. 262, note ‡.
  • 43. See vol. iii. p. 68, note §.
  • 44. The Scotch and Irish members.
  • 45. For Scotland and Ireland.
  • 46. 1 Kings, iii. 25.
  • 47. See vol. i. p. 262, note ‡.
  • 48. See vol. iii. p. 241, ad fin.
  • 49. Art. ix. See Parl Hist. (1763), xx. 250, 306, 307.
  • 50. See vol. iii. p. 74, note.
  • 51. See Rushworth's Hist. Coll. (1708), iv. 240.
  • 52. See vol. iii. pp. 560, 580.