House of Commons Journal Volume 1: 01 March 1624

Lunae, 1 Martii

Stanniere's Nat.

L. 1a. AN Act for the Naturalizing of David Stanniere.

Best's Nat.

L. 1a. An Act for the Naturalizing of Jaques de Best.

Ministers.

Scandalous Ministers, to be provided.

Preacher thanked.

Sir Arthur Ingram: - Some One or Two to give Thanks to Doctor Bargrave, for his Sermon Yesterday ; and also to desire him to put it in Print.

Ordered, Sir Edw. Villiers, and Sir Arthur Ingram shall do it.

Wales.

Wales. L. 1. An Act -

Jeofayles.

L. 1a. An Act for the further Reformation of Jeofayles.

King's Tenants.

L. 1a. An Act for Relief of Patentees, Tenants, and Farmers of Crown Lands, and Duchy Lands, in Cases of Forfeiture for Non-payment of their Rents, or other Service or Duty.

General Issue.

L. 1a. An Act to admit the Subject of the General Issue, in Informations of Intrusion.

Negotiations with Spain.

Sir Benjamin Ridiard: - Seeing the Prince hath made a Posting Journey into Spayne, for Discovery, let not us be slow to apply a Remedy. Since this Treaty with Spayne, the Palatinate -

Let our principal Care now be salus reipublicae. If we go on, we shall be caught in a Net; the poorest and basest Way of being destroyed. - Not likely they will alter a Ground of State for a Compliment. Let us look on the Face of Christendom now abroad. For the Palatinate -

To advise his Majesty, humbly, to break off both the Treaties; and to intreat the Lords, to join with us to his Majesty. - To do this speedily. -

To secure Ireland by Soldiers : Really and roundly, to assist the Low Countries: By a diversive War. -

Sir Geo. Moore: - This a Cause of the greatest Weight, that ever he knew within theseWalls. - In such Businesses, to go on with a slow Pace. To begin with One first. - God having managed all this Business, and miraculously brought home our Prince again- -

Sir Ro. Philips: - To endeavour, what we have lost by prejudicial Treaties, to recover by a manly and English Way. - The Cause, that moved the Prince to his Journey. 2. The Success he had there. -

We find, that the last Prince of Wales, that came out of Spaine, loaden. with Arms, and Victory; this, with Safety, and Security. -

Blessed be God, that gave us such a Prince; and God, that gave such Affection to him. - The Marriage: - Whether to advise his Majesty to proceed in it, or no. -

No advised Man will think this to be fitting: But grant we might have it; whether fit, or no. -

This Treaty the best Army the King of Spaine hath had these many Years. We have lost our Friends abroad, ourselves at home, and almost God Almighty. This being so, let us make no long stand, but conclude, we think not fit to continue this Treaty any longer. -

2ly, The Palatinate. - Can hardly name it, but with Sighs and Sobs. - Routed all our Party in Germany: Occasioned more Loss of Christian Blood, than Charles the Vth lost: Lost our Reputation. - To cover this, not to go thither. - Spaine first got it, and still defend it. He the first Mover: The great Wheel, that moves all the little ones. - Thinks, they never intended the Palatinate, in regard of the necessary Use they have of it. - Rome and Spaine good Friends : Laugh, and weep, together.

- No Choice, but to recover it by a diversive War. - Our Enemy, the State of Spaine. - To desire a Conference with the Lords.

Sir Miles Fleetwood: - Hopes, this Parliament will prove like the Mount Pisga, from whence Balaam blessed Israel. - Observes some Passages in this Treaty; - The Persons, by whom we have suffered; the Ministers of Spaine: They pretended a Marriage, but never intended.

- The Persons we are honoured by: The Prince first. - We may admire his Constancy, that would not forget the Songs of Jerusalem in a strange Land. He the Hopes of our succeeding Happiness. 2. The Duke of Buckingham, who much to be honoured for his Employment. -

1. Against Religion : . . . The Honour of the King: 3. The Peace of our State, l. Against Religion. That like the Ark of God among the Israelites. - Qui non videt, caecus est; qui non agnoscit, ingratus. - Against the Honour of our King, whose Honour it hath been to be the Defender of the Faith. - Against the Peace of the Kingdom.- - What Peace can be expected from them?

- To be humble Suitors to his Majesty, to proceed in no further Treaty.

Sir Fra. Seymour: - As we are One Body, so let us, with One Heart and Affection, give Counsel and Advice to his Majesty. We have found, though contrary to his Majesty's Intention, that our Religion hath lost much by means of the Spanish Agents here. - Have not left unattempted the Prince his Highness, and the Duke. In the Midst of this Treaty, the King of Spaine hath turned our King's Daughter, and her Children, out of Doors. In the third Place, this Match can be no Ways beneficial to this Kingdom. - No Benefit of Alliance; for they hold us for Heretiques : - If Portion; that turned into a Pension, and a few Jewels, which may hap to be counterfeit. - To have a Period forthwith put to this Treaty :

- And, that his Majesty would be pleased, to treat no longer of the Palatinate, but leave that to the Care of his loving Subjects. - Doubts not, but we shall either restore them, or change for the better. -

And to put in Execution good Laws against Recusants, and to banish Popish Priests.

Sir Jo. Elliott: - Fitter for us to do, than speak. - Signified to us at the last Conference, that our Ships stayed in Spaine. - To advise his Majesty, for setting forth his own Fleet, to require of the Recusants, a present Supply of Money.

Mr. Pym: - Debate a Preparation to Judgment. - To bring this to a Conclusion. To give our Advice, for both negatively; and to desire a Conference with the Lords.

Serjeant Hicham: - If in the Case of a private Person, to be deceived Two or Three Times, an Imputation to his Judgment, to trust again. - This Matter so clear and evident, that no Man questions it. If Gundomar himself

present, would neither put himself upon God, nor the Country: Of Two Evils, his safest Course to have a Judgment against him, upon Nihil dicit. -

To do Right to our Judgments ; that it may be said, so soon as ever came in Parliament, it was over-ruled.

Duke of Buckingham.

A Message from the Lords, by Serjeant Crue, and Attorney. -

The Lords have sent this Message: That, whereas on Friday last they sent to this House, to intimate to us, that they had cleared my Lord of Buckingham by a general Vote, and purposed, by a Committee, to represent it to the King; they desire to explain themselves thus far, that they did not mean to divide or go apart from this House, in regard delivered before both Houses : - To proceed together.

Mr. Alford: - To have a Report made first from the Committee for this Purpose.

Answer: This House doth give Thanks to their Lordships, for their good Correspondence ; and will speedily, this Forenoon, return Answer by Messengers of their own.

Mr. Solicitor reports from the Committee, appointed to take into Consideration the Dishonour done to my Lord Duke, and this House. - Resolved there to go singly by ourselves, and by the Mouth of the Speaker. Directions set down in Writing.

The Directions read.

Sir James Perrott: - Quod dubitas, ne feceris. - Thinks it more convenient, to have this done jointly by both Houses, than of ourselves. Excepts against the Word, " reflecting."

Sir Rob. Philips: - To have a Message, to intreat the Lords to appoint their Number, Time, and Place.

Sir Edw. Sands: - One thing omitted. - To acquaint the Lords, how we have, with an unanime Consent. -

The former Committee, for this Business, sent to the Lords with this Message ......

Conference.

Another Message from the Lords, by Lord Chief Baron, Master Rolls, and Mr. Attorney : -

In the great Business, wherein his Majesty desires the speedy Advice of both Houses, the Lords intreat a Conference, of a Committee of both Houses, To-morrow, at Two a Clock, in the Hall at Whitehall; or else as soon as can be.

Sir Dud. Diggs: - Not to go To-morrow,

Sir Rob. Philips: - In our Care to save Time, we use the Means to lose Time. - As our Affections carry us apace, so to proceed likewise with Judgment. - To return this Answer: That our Care and Affection shall make all the Speed may be : If we can prepare Business, will meet them To-morrow; if not, shall hear . . us To-morrow.

Mr. Alford: - The Lords provided : Divers here not spoke; nor no Heads agreed on. - Then to chuse Six or Eight to speak, and answer, at this Conference. - Not to be engaged. If To-morrow ready, to send to the Lords.

Chancellor Duchy : - Unfit for a Conference. - Meeting, and Conference, often mistaken.

Mr. Glandvyle: - The Lords sat a Saturday, and are grown to a Conclusion : - Therefore aforehand with us.

Answer to the Message: This House hath a Care and Affection to speed this great Business : If with Conveniency they can, they will be ready to meet the Lords To- morrow; if not, they shall hear from us To-morrow.

Duke of Buckingham.

Answer sent to the Lords by the Committee of our House, appointed to consider of the Dishonour done to the Duke of Buckingham, and this House. Sir Rob. Philips to deliver it.

Ld. Keeper.

Secretary Calvert: - A Message from the King. - The Two Secretaries commanded by him: - That he takes Notice of some Informations in this House against my Lord Keeper. - The Keeper ready to answer these : - But desires, this House not too ready and apt to entertain Complaints against such Officers, unless it be for Matter of Corruption.

To meet in Afternoon.

Sir Hen. Mildmay: - So long as Life, there is Hope. - To appoint the Speaker to meet here this Afternoon, to prepare his Business.

Conference.

Mr. Currington, accordant. - To prepare ourselves to meet the Lords To-morrow. - A Conference will not conclude us.

Negotiations, with Spain.

Sir Jo. Strangewaies: - The first Mover in this Business moved. - To do with the greatest and potentest King in the World. - First, to secure ourselves at home; and after, to maintain a War abroad. - To secure the Kingdom. - A fair Precedent.

To confine the greatest Recusants here. - This will take away a great deal of his Party. - To have Order for the Providing of the trained Soldiers. - Come to 100 and 60 thousand Men. - To settle these; then to have such Fortifications made on the Sea-coasts, as formerly. This for home. - To have the Penalty of the Statute put in Execution against Recusants.

Sir Dud. Diggs: - To have a Committee this Afternoon. - Ibi recte consulitur, ubi propositio consult a controvertitur.

Sir Edw. Sandys: - The Original of our Consultation now from his Majesty. - To restrain our Answer directly to his Majesty's Propositions: Neither to come short, nor exceed. At this Time to go no farther than the King's Proposition, whether it may be fit for him to continue any longer his Treaties with Spaine. - Treaties, the Spanish Game. We have played long with them at their own Game. - Cum cancrem reges et proelia, Cynthius aurem vellit. - To give the Lords a Reason, why to break these Treaties. - Do as Counsellors should do. - First, this Afternoon, to debate, whether -

Conference.

Sir Rob. Philips reports from the Lords. - The Lords do take in very good Part the Disposition of this House.

- The Number, Twelve; the Place, Painted Chamber; the Time, instantly.

Ordered, That double the Number of our House shall presently meet them : - 24 of the former Committee.

Committee to sit, &c.

Ordered, That a Committee of the whole House shall sit this Afternoon, to debate the great Business; and Mr. Speaker to be here at Twelve a Clock.

King's Message.

Sir Edw. Seymour: - To have Mr. Secretary's Message from the King better explained.

Mr. Alford: - To appoint some Time, after this great Business ended, to return a fair Answer to his Majesty.

- Ordered.

Names.

Sir Pet. Hayman: - To take into Consideration, whether any Man's Name shall be set down before this Motion, or no.

Journal.

Ordered, That the Committee of Privileges shall take this into Consideration; and search ancient Precedents, in what Manner the Clerk of this House hath used to take Notes, and make Entries; and to report the same to the House.

Petition to the King.

A Copy of the Petition preferred to the King the last Parliament, to be brought after Dinner.

Mariners,&c.

Sir Edw. Seimour : - Five Ships now going to the Indies, wherein 1,000 Mariners, 800 Barrels of Powder. - To have the House take Notice of this. - All the Shipping of the West Country at Newfound-land, a fishing.

Mr. Abbot: - True, Four Ships prepared for the Indies: Intelligence from thence, Eight Galeons, and Two Carracks, made ready for those Parts : A Ship or Two at home, of 800 Tun a-piece. If these Ships stayed, a great Prejudice [to] the Kingdom.

Duke of Buckingham.

Sir Edw Coke reports from the Lords. - A great Correspondence between the Lords and us. - Lord of Canterbury delivered the very Vote of this House ; that the Matter, delivered by my Lord of Buckingham, did lead him to speak what he had. - They had cleared him from Blame, and thought him worthy of Honour and Thanks. We agreed with them in all; and said also, how sensible this House was of these undue Informations. -

Thanked us for this : - Were examining of who were the Authors of this; and desired us to do also.

The Words : - That the Matter led my Lord of Buckingham to speak what he did ; and that he was so far from deserving Blame, that he deserved Honour and Thanks from both Houses, from the King and Commonwealth. -

The Lord Keeper to signify so much, from both Houses, to the King, at his next coming to Town.

Negotiations with Spaine.

Speaker went into his Chair; and Sir Edwin Sands reports from the great Committee. - They have, with an unanimous Consent, resolved, that this House should give the King Advice, to break off both Treaties. They also think fit to have a select Committee, to draw certain Grounds and Reasons, to fortify their Advice and Opinions.

Agreed, upon Question, That this House shall give Advice to his Majesty, to break off both Treaties with Spaine, both concerning the Marriage, and the Palatinate.

Agreed also, upon Question, that a select Committee of Twelve shall be named, to set down and collect their Reasons, to fortify this Opinion of this House, at the Conference with the Lords: - Presently. Court of Wards; and To-morrow, at Nine Clock, to report to the House. -

Sir Edw. Coke, Sir Edw. Sandys, Mr. Recorder, Sir Nath. Rich, Sir Edw. Cecill, Sir Rob. Philips, Sir Rob. Mansill, Sir Dud. Diggs, Sir Ben. Ridiard, Chancellor Exchequer, Secretary Calvert, Chancellor Duchy, Mr. Solicitor.