House of Commons Journal Volume 1: 11 March 1624

Jovis, 11 Martii

Bishop of Coventry.

L. 1a. AN Act of Explanation of a former Statute, made in the 23th Year of the Reign of the late Queen Elizabeth, intituled, An Act for Assurance of the yearly Rent of 82 Pounds and 10s. to the Bishop of Coventry and Lichfeild, and his Successors for ever, out of certain Manors, Lands, Tenements, and Hereditaments, thereby assured to Edward Fisher Esquire, and his Heirs.

Morgan.

L. 1. Morgan's Bill.

Duchy of Cornwall.

Sir Edw. Cooke reports the Prince's Bill. - Some Alterations made in it: - Which being twice read, the .....

Supply.

Sir Benjamin Ridiard: - To cherish his Majesty's recovered Inclination to Parliament. - The ill Success of Parliaments hath been the Cause of all the Ill to this Commonwealth. -

We advise the King to break off the Treaties; he proposes to us, how it may be done. - Spaine fears no State. -

To constitute a Committee of both Houses, in Nature of a Council of War, for the Securing Ireland, strengthening our Forts, furnishing the Navy, and assisting the Low Countries.- -

To make some Proportion presently, for his Majesty's own Supply, to sweeten Parliaments.

Sir James Perrot: - Before we enter to this Resolution, to have a Committee of 20 or 30, to consider of Two, equally to be balanced ; State of the King, and Kingdom.

Sir Hen. Mildmay: - To defer no longer the Expressing That we all intend, but to cut off the malignant Hopes of all the Popish Party in this Land. - Nemo laeditur, nisi a seipso.

Mr. Wentworth: - Four into Consideration : Whether not a Necessity of sending Men into Germany: 2. What Number: 3. What Money: 4. What the best Means to raise it with most Speed. For the first, Four Motives : 1.

The present Danger of that Place, considering the many Armies ready to be poured down upon them. Admitting this, the second Motive, the Consideration of their Nearness in Situation : 2ly, In Amity and Confederation. 3. Vinculum inter Deum, et homines, Religion. 4. The Preservation of the noble Queen of Bohemia, and her Issue. The Part of this Kingdom. 5. The Consideration of our own Welfare, - Tum tua res agitur, paries - To resolve speedily on this.

Secretary Conway : - To go upon short Lines in this Business. - To go to the Business. - These Things, of the Low Countries, after the King's Declaration. - To consider now the State where we are. - If the Treaties go, the Low Countries lost; if not go on with them, must needs have a War. - Then what to do ? - To give the King such an Answer, as that he may declare himself: The rest will follow in their Time.

Mr. Currington : - To go to some Declaration to his Majesty. The first Thing to be considered, whether we should not now need send such an Answer to his Majesty as was formerly proposed.

Sir Edw. Cecill:- - We have given Advice to his Majesty : He hath sent a wise Answer : Ventured his Son, his Estate; Spent more in Treaty, than all the War, he can make this Year, will come to. A Vanity in us to desire him to war, if not assured necessary, and just. - Remember the Reputation of the House: Go upon our first Grounds. - Not possible for them to give the Palatinate.

- Knows, how weak Spaine. - 10,000 Men will go through Spaine. - To desire a Committee with the Lords.

Mr. Alford: - For going to the Lords, not yet ready ; nor for making a Committee. Many Motions. - Will divide the Question : - For the War, and King's Debts.

- To tie ourselves to one Point. - War the most necessary : - To tie ourselves to that Point, for a Supply for that. To proceed first with this, whether a Supply to be made for a War, or no.

Sir Edw. Sandys : - No greater Enemy to Consultation, than Precipitation; nor to Action, than Delay. - To proceed lento pede. To go this Day but One Step : Not presently to rush into a War. - Not a necessary immediate Consequence. - Bellum non recte geritur, nisi rebus repetitis et declaratis. - First to demand a Restitution. - For to return this Answer; that, if he will be pleased to take our Advice, we will not fail him, but assist him, according to our Abilities : Then will come fitly into Debate, the Consequence of this. -

Likely, this Advice, when embraced by his Majesty, and come to be put in Execution, will draw a great Charge upon the Subject. -

As necessary to enable the People to make Supply, as to give, by taking away Grievances ; but doubtful, whether to make mention of this at this Time. - To have it, according to the Measure of our Abilities, - To send to the Lords, that we have taken into dutiful Consideration the Answer : That we desire a Conference with their Lordships, what Answer to give to his Majesty.

Mr. Brooke: - Find now true, that this Court a Council of State. The Report made of the King's Wants, not to amuse, or amaze, any Man here; but, to let us know, he is not able to disburse any more. - Not to go to the Lords To-day, nor to a Committee presently. To consider wherein the Charge will lie.

Sir Hen. Anderson: - To put the Question now, sedente Curia, whether we will not make good our Advice to his Majesty.

Sir Ed. Coke : - To single out the Point of War. - We ought to have War, if we break off the Treaties. England never prospered so well as when Wars with Spaine.

- Humores moti, et non remoti, ladunt corpus. - Thinks this a just War. - No Process of Law to recover the Palatinate ; therefore must be by Cannon Shot. King hath demanded the Palatinate, and they have not delivered it: That a Denial. - Not ripe for a Message to the Lords. - Now the Time that Kings go forth to Battle. - Delay wounds this Cause. - If Ireland secured, the Navy furnished, the Low Countries assisted, will not care for Pope.

Turk, Spaine, nor all the Devils in Hell. - Take the Way to persuade the King to declare. This will not be by Generalities. - To-morrow Morning to read the King's Proposition. And then to consider our Answer. - Nec quies gentium sine armis.

Sir Will. Herbert: - To reduce the Business to a Point.

Sir Will. Strode: - Nothing to do at this Time, but to procure a Declaration from his Majesty. - To prepare a Committee, to meet with the Lords. - Nothing to do, but,

we would be ready to make good our Advice.

Sir Rob. Harlo : - To go to the Question, whether, in the first Place, in all these weighty Matters -

To make a Manifestation, that, if the King will declare himself, we will support him.

Mr. Glanvyle:- - The Work of this Day Twofold : 1. To give Advice, how it may stand with his Conscience and Honour. - Not resolved on War: But as much in Effect will put no Scorn on us. - Nor brook a Furrow of Land. -

Hath suffered to be here declared, how the Spaniard hath dealt with him. -

For the Point of his Honour and Conscience ; thinks, we may safely advise the King in it. -

2. Doubt, that he shall not be able to through with it. - To go to the Question upon these Two Points : 1. Whether the King may not -

Mr. Solicitor: - The King's Honour and Conscience not put to us. - To fix ourselves, as yet, upon the general.

Sir Rob. Philips : - The Proposition of War not now seasonable. Fit now for us to justify our Advice, that, in case his Majesty will break the Treaties, we will assist, &c. - To resolve this Point, that we will assist his Majesty, as far as shall be convenient.

Sir Nath. Rich :- - Two Questions. -

Nothing in the King's Doubts, which should retard his Majesty's Resolution to declare. - All is weak now, will be much weaker hereafter. - Not to put to the Question, whether we shall assist his Majesty in our Advice : To have it done by a general Acclamation, because such Rumours abroad, of our Backwardness to come unto it.

Mr. Recorder : - The King gives God Thanks, with all the Faculties of his Mind, for our Advice ; no Doubt therefore, but he will follow it. - Not to enter into a Question, not warranted by the Speech. - War not our Question now; nor, whether the King may make War, with Honour and Conscience. Hopes the King's Conscience will agree with all our Consciences. - To have the Question single. - That we should make an Answer, that, if he declare to break off the Treaties, we would be ready, to our best Abilities, to assist him.

Resolved, upon Question, That, in Pursuit of our Advice, we will be ready, upon his Majesty's Declaration to break off both the Treaties, to assist, both with our Persons and Abilities, in a parliamentary Manner. This done with a general Acclamation, without any One Voice to the contrary.

Sir Rob. Philips: - To have a strict Injunction upon every Member of the House, not to declare what hath been done here to To-day, upon Pain of being turned out of the House.

Chancellor Duchy : - Not fit to silence what is here done To-day. - Let it go to Rome.

Ditto.

A Message from the Lords, by Attorney, and Sir Will. Bird: -

The Lords have sent this Message : That whereas, upon Report made to their Lordships this Day, by the Lord Treasurer, of his Majesty's Estate, they conceive, the like here done ; Doubts there arise ; they think, the like may be here ; they desire a Meeting, with all convenient Speed ; where the Prince will be, to clear all Doubts. -

Their Number 24. - No Place, nor Time.

Chancellor Exchequer : - To return Answer, that no Doubts here.

Sir Edw. Sandys : - If we give them a Meeting, we give them an Audience, and no Conference, Their Doubts

may breed some Impediment to the Resolution. - To signify to them, that the like Relation hath been made here ; but no Dispute here of any Doubts.

Answer : This House hath taken into Consideration the Message: Will give the Lords a Meeting, with a proportionable Number, at such Time, and Place, as their Lordships shall appoint.

Mr. Treasurer, Two Secretaries of State, Chancellor Exchequer, Sir Edward Coke, Sir Edw. Sandys, Sir Jo. Savyle, Sir Dud. Digs, Sir Rob. Philips, Sir Will. Herbert, Sir Nicolas Tufton, Sir Jo. Epsley, Sir Geo. Moore, Mr. Solicitor, Mr. Comptroller, Sir Fra. Cottington, Sir Ben. Ridiard, Sir Tho. Savyle, Mr. Alford, Lord Candish, Sir Fra. Seymour, Sir Alex. St. John, Sir Guy Palmes, Sir Isaac Wake, Sir Rob. Harley, Sir Rob. Pye, Sir John Ellyot, Mr. Recorder, Sir Natha. Rich, Sir Will. Strode, Chancellor Duchy, Sir Fra. Barrington, Sir Miles Fleetwood, Sir Hen. Poole, Sir John Hobart, Sir Lewis Watson, Sir Tho. Lucy, Sir Roger North, Sir Edw. Villiers, Sir Peter Hayman, Sir Edw. Cecill, Mr. Drake, Mr. Glanvill, Sir Hen. Fane, Sir Will. Spencer, Sir John Scudamore, Sir Percy Herbert, Mr. Selden.

Message from Lords.

A Message from the Lords, by the same Messengers; -

The Lords desire the Meeting presently, in the Painted Chamber.

Answer: Our Committee of 48 will presently give their Lordships meeting.

Report deferred.

Mr. Secretary: - Cannot make Report: Was not near- -

To have the Committee go into the Committee Chamber, and agree of the Report.

Resolved, Upon Question, To defer this Report till Tomorrow Morning; and the Committees to meet this Afternoon, and confer their Notes together. Mr. Chancellor, and the Two Secretaries to make the Report.

Sir Ed. Coke, Chancellor Duchy, Sir Tho. Jermyn, Recorder, Solicitor, Mr. Glandvyle, Mr. Cooke, Sir Jo. Savyle, Sir Natha. Rich, Sir Will. Fleetwood, Sir Ben. Ridiard -