House of Commons Journal Volume 1: 20 February 1607 (2nd scribe)

Veneris, 20o Die Februarii

Cavendish.

CAVENDISH. - Tuesday, Chequer Chamber.

Trelawnye's Estate.

1. Reading. - B. For further Assurance to the Purchasers of certain Lands, late Sir Jonathan Trelawnye's, Knight, deceased, &c.

Pelham's Estate.

2. Reading. - B. - For the better Enabling of Herbert Pelham, Esquire, to make Sale of the Manor of Swynsted, alias Swynshead, in the County of Lincolne, &c.

Committed to Sir Gam. Capell, Sir Geo. Fleetwood, Sir Geo. Moore, Sir Mich. Hicks, Sir Wm. Twysden, Sir Wm. Wray, Sir Barnard Whyston, Sir Rob. Oxenbridge, Mr. Staughton, Mr. Fr. Moore, Mr. Fuller, Mr. Irby, Sir H. Poole, Mr. Tate, Sir John Ackland, Sir Tho. Waller, Sir Tho. Darrell, Sir Tho. Walsingham, Sir Fr. Fane, Mr. Serjeant Shirley, Sir Geo. Rivers, Mr. Alford, Mr. Bullingham : Tuesday, Chequer Chamber.

Bathyrst and Bourchier.

Mr. Overbury reports the Bills of Bathyrst and Bourchier -

That all the former Estates, granted by the first Patents, are void. -

The Will of Mr. Dodge. -

To be re-committed to the same Committees.

Privilege.

Mr. Speaker moveth, that one Hawkins, Prentice to one Towerson, a Merchant; who being put from his Master, and much Endeavour used to reconcile him to his Master; who obstinately refused to take him, left him to his Friends to dispose of him. Sir Warw. Heale retained him : Since, his Master hath arrested him upon an Action of 8000 l. - A Warrant for an Habeas Corpus. - Serjeant to be warned : - Towerson.

Bathyrst,&c.

To-morrow, Temple Hall, - Bathyrst, Bourchier.

Prisoner discharged.

Hutchins, the Serjeant, committed for arresting Mr. James, came to the Bar, and, upon his Submission, and Confession of his Fault, acknowleging the Favour of the House, was discharged, paying Fees to the Serjeant.

Prisoner to be brought up.

Bateman's Petition read ; and ordered, he should be brought to the Bar.

Sir Wm. Maurice beginneth the Dispute of the Union. -

Union with Scotland.

If I were Alexander, I would do one Thing : If I were Parmenio, I would do another. -

Sorne, that spoke before, spoke Logick; some, Sophistry. -

Sir Henry Jenkins: - 1. Prays, that he may speak nothing impertinently : That the House will hear him with Patience, and Attention, -

A Citizen. -

Romaynes had divers Territories; Africk, Palestina, Juries; subject to the Romaynes: All Citizens: No Alteration of Laws. -

A Citizen, whether by Conquest, whether by Marriage, if not admitted by Parliament, cannot purchase; is not naturalized.

Upon the Marriage of Queen Mary with the King of Spaine, all Benefices ecclesiastical were especially reserved, upon the Treaty [a]. -

No Welchman had Voice in Parliament, until 27 H. VIII. that they were enabled by Parliament.

Sir Geo. Moore : - This Matter within the Compass of all our Cares, though not of their Knowlege. -

Concerns Two Persons; English, Scotts. - Between us, as Brethren ; Friends. -

Salom. " A Friend nearer than a Brother." -

Alter idem: Sed alter tamen. -

We are trusted by many. - Not betray it. -

The Case not between England and Scotland; but he looketh upon the whole Island.

Two Eyes of One Body; Two Sides of One Body: If it look another Way, it is a Squint. -

The Causes, Two. - Because ad fidem, he thought them not Aliens ; but he thinketh them now in aliena republica. Not altogether Strangers : To some respects natural; to buy, to purchase : Whether to all respects, he doubts. -

The Fool fears nothing : The wise Man fears. A Time to doubt, a Time to resolve. -

They will live with us. If a Stranger sojourn with us, thou shalt not grieve him. -

Not to look upon them, as Spanyards, &c. - More than Strangers. We must love them, if we will have them love us. -

The Romaynes had Municipes, so soon as they extended their Government -

To win Strangers unto us; as France, and other Nations. -

Moveth, that there should be no Order in, and Resolution in, the House, to declare them not naturalized. - The Cross of the King's Proclamation.

Sir John Crook, Sir Edward Stanhope, bring a Message from the Lords: - The Lords have sent to renew the Message, concerning the Continuance of the Conference, touching the Matter of the Union. - Two Points debated ; with a Promise, that the other should be. Their Lordships, desirous to expedite this Business, and wholly intending it, hoping (for which, principally, this Session is called) of Concurrence in this House, with the same Zeal and Care, expect an Answer from this House, with such Speed, as they should think fit.

The Messengers retired.

Answ. Sir Edw. Hobby: We have, and do still endeavour, to consider of the Matter with as much Speed as we can ; with Desire to prepare ourselves, as much as we can.

The Message sent by the same Messengers : Which was thought fit, for saving of Time. Mr. Speaker delivereth it to the same Messengers, to be carried to the Lords.

Ditto.

Sir Rich. Spencer proceedeth. -

Great Councils sometimes pleased to hear, and follow, the meanest Conceits. -

The like Motion by a Latin Ambassador. The Consuls fell into a passionate Speech : Yet Time, the best Character of these Things, made them change their Opinion, and admit them ad aequum jus civitatis, but not a general Participation. -

Whether those, born since, be made free Denizens. -

Sovereignty is either absolute, or conditional. - Ei, et in eum, omnem potestatem committimus: - The Nature of Sovereignty. Sovereignty hath a Relation to Subjection. All Sovereignty doth but extend to a Particular. -

The Subject cannot look for Protection, but where the Protection -

Sovereignty bound to defend the Laws of One State: That State must needs be several. -

Where the Sovereignty is tied to the Laws, there must the Subject be guided by those Laws, and no other. -

His Opinion, not naturalized.

Mr. May: - He will speak, as he thinketh; and in Point of Convenieney he will speak. -

He that denieth the Parts, is against the whole. -

Never any Thing universally good. -

By doing an Act, run into such an Inconvenience; by not doing, avoid a Mischief. -

1. Whether this present Accession be Accession of Glory, Greatness, and State. -

The ancient Parliaments would have thought, it a great Glory. -

Labour, for the Marriage of the King's Mother, and King E. VI.

The very Points of this Union offered, upon that Marriage, with fewer Limitations. -

If, in point of State, we mean to keep it, no other Way but this. -

By Love, the best; by War, too chargeable. -

Spayne fain to flatter his States; to give them Pensions; to use all Means to keep them in Obedience. -

This a Consumption, a Hurt to our State. -

France, upon the Marriage with the Scottish Queen, gave all Privileges to the Nation of the Scotts.

We never got the Hearts of Welchmen, until we did incorporate them. -

The Cause of Irish Rebellions; that, to be born an Irishman, is a Bar against them. They are not thought worthy, &c. -

Naturalization not merely a Favour, but grounded upon Equity and Justice. -

If War happen with any Nation, they must fight with us ; they must feel Adversity with us, against all Men; therefore their Case shall be miserable, if they must forsake all, and enjoy nothing with us.

Sir Herbert Crofts: - We must draw ourselves to this Point, Whether all, born since the King's coming, be naturalized.

Alieni a fide, quoad Scotland. - He of Opinion, they are not naturalized. -

To declare, that they are not naturalized, first. Sir Wm. Strowd: - We must of Necessity go to Question, Whether we should not declare, that they be not naturalized.

Sir Nath. Bacon: - That the former Lawyers Speeches may first be answered, and then to Question.

Sir Wm. Twysden: - That the Matter may be determined in the House, not declared.

Sir Rob. Wingfield; - That we may hear the Lords; hear the Judges; and return, and resolve.

Sir Rob. Cotton: - That we may hear the Civil Lawyers; because jus gentium is in it; or else, by a Committe.

Mr. Martin. - For a Committee.

Mr. Speaker remembereth, that there was a Promise of Conference. - Not to grow to a Question, and determine of it, before we confer.

Sir Herbert Crofts: - That he meant, the Question should be. Whether the major Part be determined.

Mr. Attorney: - That, if we go with a Resolution, we lose our End. We leave it to the Judges, when we are parted hence. We cannot make a Law alone: They will not join with us.

Mr. Tate: - That we cannot determine; because it is a Point of the moral Law of Nations; because it rests upon the Opinion of the Parliament of Scotland.

Mr. Secretary Herbert, - for the Civilians to dispute it at a Committee; and, in the mean time, to prepare themselves. -

Quaestiones juris: explorati,controversi -

To refer it to a Committee, to collect the Reasons of both Parts.

Mr. Solicitor: - That some, one Day; some, another.

No Question to be made in this.

The great Committee read, and the Matter referred, this Afternoon, at Two a Clock, in the House. - To hear, prepare, and collect all the Reasons.

Nicholas Hawkins, Servant: William Towerson. - Counter in the Pultrie.

This Matter stayed by Mediation the next Day.