House of Commons Journal Volume 1: 29 April 1607 (2nd scribe)

Mercurii. 29o Die Aprilis, 1607

Southampton Charter.

1. Reading: - B. For Confirmation of some Part of a Charter granted to the Town of Southampton by King H. the Sixth, and for Relief of the said Town.

Debts.

Sir Barn. Whytston. - Satisfying of due Debts; - Temple, Saturday.

Mounpesson.

Mounpesson: - Friday.

Smyth's Estate.

2. Reading: - B. For Confirmation of certain Lands to the Warden and College of the Souls of all faithful People deceased, of Oxon, and of other Lands to Sir Wm. Smyth, Knight: - Mr. Solicitor, Mr. Recorder, Sir Edw. Grevill, Sir Rob. Wingfield, Burgesses of Oxford and

Cambridge, Mr. Fuller, Sir H. Poole, Mr. Martin, Sir Rich. Bulkley, Sir James Perrott, Mr. Hyde, Sir Wm. Skipwith, Knights and Burgess of Leicester, Sir John Heigham, Sir John Peyton, Sir Geo. Moore, Sir John Townsend, Sir Fr. Fane, Sir Herbert Crofts, Sir Tho. Freak, Sir Wm. Strowd, Sir Edw. Mountague, Mr. Bullingham, Sir Edm. Ludlowe, Sir Jerome Horsey: - Saturday, Middle Temple.

City of London Estates.

1. Reading: - B. for the Securing and Confirming of the Lands, Tenements, and Rents, heretofore granted, devised, or conveyed, to several Companies within the City of London, and to the Mayor, and Commonalty, and Citizens, of the City of London.

Mr. Alford: - A dangerous Bill. It may reach as far as St. Michael's Mount. The Saving doth not help.

Mr. Recorder satisfied the House amply.

Union with Scotland.

Sir Rob. Wingfield beginneth the Dispute. -

Puisne, in Consultation, begin first; so he in this Assembly. - An Hindrance to Huntsmen to have a fresh Hare a-foot. -

Courses propounded:

Unperfect, with Restraint:

Perfect:

Collecting Reasons:

Conference. -

If the Going forward with these Particulars, in the Instrument, were a Hindrance to the Perfect, he would never give Consent.

That we might have Bills.

Mr. Fuller: - A good Plot by Sir Edwyn Sandys: A good Difference of unum and unitum. -

Though the Laws be One, not sufficient, if the Government be not One; the Law making One. -

If the Preparations - Hindrances on both Sides. -

On our Sides. -

If we shall give them Liberties, they having already greater than we; give them Wealth, and Commerce withal; what will they then desire more?

Not unite in Government, but in Love and Affection: Do nothing, that may hinder that. If they shall have more than ourselves, and we want; - breed Hatred. -

The Trade at Diepe wholly in their Hands. -

Let the Right and the Left Arm enjoy their proper and natural Privileges, and no more -

No Man, in all this Time, advanced in Scotland; many Scotts in England. -

The Good on their Side: Let them begin first. Why should we begin first, and they they over-reach ? -

If it be held, that post-nati are - then the Judges will interpret, that no Law binds Prerogative: Much more in this, than in the Matter of Purveyance; having a necessary Ground. -

A Motion, for a select Committee, to set down the Reasons; that all Posterity may see, upon what Ground we do it against the Judges Opinion. -

Hostile Laws to go forward in a Bill. Reasons to be collected, and delivered to the Clerk, touching Naturalization. -

Denizens not capable of Place in Parliament.

Mr. Martin: - Question, whether a Cpnference; or set down the Reasons, touching the perfect Union, and deliver it by Message. -

That would have an Union: The Perfect. - No Union, no Commerce. - An Union again that is hostile Laws. -

Provision may be made, that a Prerogative may be bound; he hath been made to understand. -

The Cases of Pardoning of Felons, and Bringing in of Denizens, not like this Case.

To give Privileges to a Nation, that must undergo the same Charge. -

Against the new Project: Now unseasonable.

Mr. John Alford: - Not to make perpetual, and then to take away any from them, how bitter.

Better to proceed in the Perfect, than Unperfect and Temporary; which being taken from, will grow bitter.

Sir Fr. Bacon: - No elaborate Speeches in -

In the first and last Act of the Union a Concurrence :

Hostile Laws, and unus grex: - Differ in the mean Conveyances, or middle Terms. - Quest. Commerce and Benefits should precede, or follow.

Object. Hope better than Memory. Not. -

Bills may be so penned, as it may include a Restraint, if not a perfect Union. -

Perfect Incorporation a Work of an Age: How we stand in the mean time, the Interim. -

Commerce very loose, and unsettled: therefore, if you do nothing, much Danger to the Merchants of England. -

If Commodities be carried to Aberdyne, there, upon a little Custom, exported, no Remedy. -

Case of Purveyance, and this, differ. Power of the King, in the Matter of Purveyance; in this, the Capacity of the Subject.

Digression, and not Diversion; for ex candore animi.

An excellent Digression; as in Poets Digressions, the best and most beautiful Parts. -

That of Review of Laws, an excellent Work inTime of Peace : Rare, but hath been done in divers Kingdoms. -

That we might digest Bills.

Sir Roger Owen: - The perfect Union the King's Intention, our Intention. No Objection can be made against this Union, if it be understood.-

In his Book, Letters of Steel: In his Coin, " Faciam eos in gentem unam:" In another, " Henricus rosas, Jacobus regna:" Therefore plainly the perfect Union intended by him. -

Never any Precedent, but that of Scotland and France, of the instrumental Union. -

Though the Wine be lost, the Vessels broken, yet the Vineyard remains: Therefore no Disreputation. -

No Inconvenience or Objection against the Perfect, that is not more against the instrumental. No Instance of any Objection.

A right Line, brevissima extensio a puncto ad punctum: A perpendicular, or linea curva. -

Comparison of Paradise, not so good: They will gather our Flowers, not our Weeds.

First to shew our Reasons for the Perfect; and, if we cannot satisfy the King, and the Lords, then to proceed with this particular Union,

Mr. Recorder - Quest. Order in Proceeding: Whether to begin with a Perfect. -

In Aragon and Castile a Participation of Particulars a long time before a Perfect. -

If we do not provide in Matter of Commerce, we are at a great After-deal. -

That a Committee may be appointed, for Bills.

Mr. Attorney: - The perfect Union out of Season. -

How we stand bound by the Acts of the Commissioners. - Not only their Acts. -

We vary from ourselves: We cross ourselves. -

The Act gave an Intimation, that they should not meddle with the fundamental Laws: If now we proceed to the Taking away of all, cross ourselves by our own Direction. -

All Conferences, of Two or Three Years, against it; never in Debate before. -

Have they not more Reason to suspect this new, than the old? -

The Construction abroad, that this is but a Stratagem, to evade, and do nothing.

The King's Desire expressed, not to have a perfect Union; therefore we cross the King's Desire. - " Faciam in gentem unam, " in the future Tense. -

Unfit to gather Reasons, without the Privity of the Lords, who have had Part in all our Conferences: Therefore now to collect, with making them acquainted. -

In the Framing of these Laws, to restrain, as they may forfeit, if they do not go on. -

Therefore to go on with Bills.

Mr. Speaker: - The Opinion of Sir Edwyn Sandys, and Sir Herbert Crofts, Sir Roger Owen, to collect Reasons, and present them; if they do not satisfy, then to proceed with the other. -

The other Side, That we should proceed by Bills.