House of Commons Journal Volume 1: 10 May 1614

Martis, 10o Maii

Lake and Deane.

L. 1. AN Act for Confirmation of a Decree in Chancery, between Lake and Deane.

Privilege.

Mr. Duncombe moveth, for Privilege to be granted to Mr. Jo. Harrys, who hath a Cause to be heard this Term, in the Star-chamber: And Ordered, He shall have the

Privilege of the House therein; and Mr. Speaker to make the same known, by Letter, to my Lord Chancellor.

Monmowth Alms-house.

L. 1. An Act to confirm and enable the Erection and Establishment of an Alms-house, a free Grammar-school, and a Preacher in the Town of Monmowth, intended to be done and performed by the Master and Four Wardens of the Fraternity of the Art or Mistery of Haberdashers, in the City of London, at the only Costs and Charges of Wm. Jones, Merchant-adventurer, a Member of the said Fraternity, and now resident at Hamboroughe in the Parts beyond the Seas.

Excommunication.

L. 1. An Act to reform the Abuses of Excommunication in divers Cases.

Privilege - Interference in Elections.

Divers of Mr. Chancellor of the Duchy his Letters, divers Affidavits.

Mr. Wm. Fanshawe : That the Chancellor hath no Power in Elections. That the Chancellor, in his younger Time, of good Service; now, in his Age, abused by bad Servants. That these Letters written by one that will sell his Master, and all, for 20s. - Loveday; who causeth Mr. Chancellor, not only in this, but in other Things, concerning the King's Profit in his Woods, and in many other Things. - Declareth many Particulars. - Moveth, he may be examined; and thinketh, it will fall out that the Chancellor free, save only, for setting his Hand to that which Loveday brought to him; and that he, and others of his Men, had undertaken, for Money, to have put in divers Names, not returned.

Sir Geo. Moore moveth, in respect of the Chancellor's Age, and former Service, Consideration may be had of his Age and Service; and his Man to be questioned, who thus misleadeth him; and to give him a Time.

Sir Jo. Strangways: - Sorry to see and hear that he doth this Day. - Lamentable, that this State governed by a Counsellor that governed by his Man.

Sir Jo. Sammes: - That, till the Time of H. IVth, no Chancellor of the Duchy. That that Court established only by H. IV. fearing the joining it to the Crown might prove prejudicial to him, doubting his Title to the Crown, That the Officers of the Duchy 1,500l. per Annum - Would have no Court of Equity, or Discretion, but the Chancery. - Moveth the annexing of the Duchy to some other Court of Record.

Mr. Francis Moore .- - That Mr. Chancellor Knight of the Shire, where he born, and dwelleth. Justice and Mercy commendable, and oft necessary. Liketh not to examine the Servant, how far hath misled his Master. Liketh not the Alteration of the Courts of Equity. - Not possible to defend the Cause ; but extenuateth the Fault, by committing Shaflyn for the ill Usage of the Surveyor, in Execution of his Office. - If the Custom of the Duchy to bind to the good Behaviour, and to appear in the Duchy, then that sufficient Warrant. - Moveth consideration of his Age, Service, &c.

Sir Ro. Phillippes: - That preposterous to excuse before condemn him. - His Letters, his Acts. - To condemn, by publick Act here, this Proceeding. - To exclude him for a Time : Then a Time for Excuse.

Mr. Hoskins: - A Prescription of the Chancellor's Power in Election, against the Right of this House and Kingdom. - State. - Greater Power than able to resist. - Elected, not to be received. - That these Letters brought to the Chancellor ready written. - Moveth, his Man may justify whether he had Instructions from his Master in these Points.

Mr. Attorney: - Alloweth the Carelessness and Earnestness of the House in these misbegotten Elections : For whosoever entereth not well, sitteth not well. Liketh not stumbling at the Threshold. Liketh the House's feeling of their own Power, yet proceeding with Moderation; speaking sharply, but concluding mercifully.

Considereth the Person: A Counsellor of State, representing the Person of the King, as we here the Commons; an Ambassador in Fraunce: - Good Success in the last Treaty in Fraunce: - A Counsellor's Son of great Age. - The House in Disposition noble and generous. - We live

not in Plato his Commonwealth, but in Times wherein Abuses have got the upper Hand. - The Prescription of the Chancellor to have the Nomination of One of the Burgesses in every of the Duchy Towns. - Yet hath been so in his Remembrance. - Blanks: - Yet ancient. - Error temporum. - A Bill to reform all these Abuses; whereat he, though not a Committee, yet attended : for attributeth all his Fortunes to his Means by this House. - Moveth an Entry. -

A Censure of Sequestration. - A great Part of Greatness to remit. - Velle, et posse, nobile.

Mr. Britayne: - Feareth Scilla and Charibdis - Si non fieret justitia, periret Anglia. - The greater the Person, the more the Offence. - Moveth a Sequestration, and then a further Consideration.

Mr. Davys: - Sorry of this Question here; yet, sithence questioned, wrong to the House if we take not Advantage of it. - Three good Effects : Caution to great ones hereafter how to write: Encouragement to Freeholders to use their own Right in Elections : A good Precedent for future Ages, that this shall be punished, in any, how great soever. -

Aggravateth the Circumstances out of the Letters. - An express Act of Parliament against these Letters by the King himself (11 R. II.) to the Prejudice of the Realm, or Hindrance of the Proceedings of Law. -

Punishment of the Party, as moderate as shall please. - The Parties wronged to be righted: 1. Mr. St. John, 2. Satisfaction to the Electors, for their Costs and Damages. A Memorial of this to be entered in the Books. - Not to meddle with the Secretary.

Mr. Brooke: - An Act to be entered here, with a Recital of what hath been done, shewing our Detestation of this Offence. -

To be sequestered for a Fortnight, or longer; the rather, because he hath written to Mr. Speaker, and not acknowledged any thing, but justifieth any thing. Satisfaction to the Parties wronged by Mr. Chancellor, or some other. - To free them from all Arrests now, and till they come home. - Disliketh proceeding against the Secretary.

Mr. Serjeant Mountague: - Ex malis moribus bonae leges. This a fit Subject for a necessary Law. In R. II. Time all Elections made by Letters, which hindered all due Elections. That produced the Statute of E. IV. to make them ineligible, which were not resiant in the Towns. - Wisheth all made incapable that should come in by Letter, for the only Way to bring in Servitude. - Were his Father would censure him. Suspended the House, for what Time shall please. - To right the Parties, by Restitution, without further Motion.

Mr. Ashley: - Joy to the Just to do Judgment; more acceptable than Sacrifice. - What Respect to Mercy, now the Question. - That confessed by the Complainants, the Chancellor merciful; but, if Arrest by a Pursivant, and all the other Extremities used, Mercy; he desireth Judgment, not Mercy. - Great Persons break through the Laws, little ones catched. - This not fit for Law-makers: An ill Precedent. - Moveth (for so much as Sequestration not proportionable to the Offence, nor will give the Country receive Satisfaction) that he answer it, as an Offender, as another Person.

Mr. Attorney of the Duchy : - Thought to speak partially, therefore shortly: Justifieth, that these Parties not sent for about the Election, but for abusing his Majesty's Commissioners and Commission. Moveth an Examination of this, before Mr. Chancellor censured, or Restitution awarded.

Sir Roger Owen: - That the Eyes of Mr. Attorney his Understanding may be sealed up by his Place. That this a kind Undertaking. That the Premises good, the Conclusion not suitable. That his own Hand condemneth him in his Letters. That One of the Causes of the deposing R. II. the * [a] Knights and Burgesses. So in H. IV. Time, when he would have excluded all Lawyers. So H. VI. So Cromwell, in H. VIII. Time. - Justifieth Sir Jo. Sammes his Speech for the Duchy. - God not

unjust, respecting Persons; for can judge of them : - Contrary for temporal Gods. - * of our Lives and Understandings. - Moveth, that the least Punishment, to have a new Writ, and he to be excluded. - [Mr. Attorney] the Heir apparent of Eloquence. -

Quitteth Sir W. Cope and Sir H. Wallopp; yet -

Moveth, a new Writ may go out for a new Election; and then, may be, they may be chosen again. - That Penalties upon the Sheriff take not away the Power of the House; but may put them out, which are falsely returned. Mr. Fuller: - That the Chancellor prayed Time, and hath now written it: yet thinketh fit he should have Time. - Aggravateth the Fault of the Bailiff.

Sir D. Digges: - That when Mr. Speaker standeth up, the other standing up, ought to sit down.

Sir H. Crofte: - That - giveth all Reverence to Mr. Chancellor. That most have gone too tenderly, none to the Quick, but Sir R. Owen; with whom he concurreth.

- Aggravateth the Offence. - Sequestration too small a Punishment. - Moveth a new Writ, for a new Election in his Place: So a new Writ, to chuse in Sir W. Cope and Sir H. Walloppes Case. - To shew Mercy, for the King's sake, not to send him to the Tower, and not in hearing him at the Bar, where only must be heard. - The Bailiff, that hath forged the Return, to be also punished.

Sir Nich. Smyth: - That Mr. Chancellor justifieth his Letters by his Letter this Day. That, till he acknowlege his Error, no Mercy to be shewed.

Mr. Thorpe concurreth with Sir H. Croftes.

Sir Tho. Lake: - Now in hand with the Punishment only. - First to be heard at the Committee; upon Report of that, to be heard at the Bar.

Mr. Finch: - That Justice to hear him. - That that which he requireth Time for, is a By-matter; viz. Binding over, and not the other Matter, which appeareth. - us in his Letters. - Agreeth, that not fit to remain a Member of this House. - That apparent Mr. St. John lawfully elected. - Wisheth all Good to either of them elected: Wisheth either of them that shall miss it, to have his Place. Moveth, Mr. St. John may be returned.

Mr. Hitchcocke: - That Justice requireth he should be heard, why we should not give Judgment against him ; which ever done, upon Verdict, or Confession, in case of Treason, or Felony. - For the King's sake, not to have him come to the Bar.

Mr. Glanvile differeth from Mr. Hitchcocke. - That he must come to the Bar.

Sir A. Cope: - That he may be first heard in his Place, e'er called to the Bar.

Sir H. Poole: - That One of the Letters read in his own Presence, and not denied. That he ought to have Justice : Must speak at the Bar: But wisheth, first he may be heard at a Committee.

Sir Wm. Walter moveth, he may receive an exemplary Punishment. That he may be disabled from this, and all other. Parliaments; which, he hopeth, his Age will, of itself, take Order with.

Mr. Whitson: - That Sir Stephen Proctor, the French Company, and Monopolizers of Glass, heard at a Committee. - Moveth the like for him. Sir Jo. Hollys - Not fit for any Man here to vow Silence. - The Faults sufficiently understood; whereof, thinketh, cannot clear himself from One. His first Letter, and his Letter this Day, prove it. - Not here as a Counsellor, but as a Knight of a Shire; yet would not have him brought to the Bar, - That if he shall desire to be heard, he come to the Bar, else not to come, in respect of his Age and Place.

Sir Edw. Hobby: - Not to hear him, except he desire it.

Sir Edw. Mountague: - To have the Order, general, whether he shall be heard, or no; and then it to be at his Choice, if he will be heard, when he understandeth that he must be heard at the Bar.

Sir W. Cope: - That the Chancellor desireth to be heard; and that, till that be done, no Censure can justly be made.

Sir Geor. Moore concurreth with Sir Edw. Hobby.

Sir Francis Goodwyn: - To have the Question, whether he shall be excluded.

Mr. Serjeant: - That the first Question to be, Whether he shall be heard. Secondly, Whether at the Bar, or Committee.

Sir Sam. Sands: - That Persons near the Chair have, as Delinquents, answered it at the Bar. - Never heard that any in this Place, as a Delinquent, hath answered for himself, but at the Bar.

Mr. Secretary acknowlegeth the Fault foul, unworthy of the Committee: - That his Place and Service aggravate his Offence. That his Majesty hath heard of it, and much grieved; the Lords of the Council ashamed of it. That the King, out of the Unworthiness of the Action, thought this Morning to have punished him ; and will be found, that the Punishment will be greater than here mentioned. A Message from him, that, if this House will remit it to him, he will punish it so, as, if this House shall not intercede for him, he will so punish him.

Sir Edw. Gyles: - That fit to have him punished here, and not to remit it to the King.

Mr. Duncombe: - That Mr. Secretary's Message, favouring of Grace, trencheth much to the Prejudice of the Liberties of the House.

Sir Robert Phillippes moveth, he may be ordered to be heard here To-morrow, at Nine of the Clock, at the Bar; and if he do not so, then to be cast out of the House, and a new Writ to go out.

Sir Jo. Bennett: - Not to deny to hear him, if he require it; yet tender, not to have him heard at the Bar. - If he come not at that time, to sentence him, as contumacious.

Sir H. Croftes : - Not unmannerly to be silent upon the King's Message. - Moveth a Message to the King, to shew our Thankfulness to his Majesty for his Message.

Ordered, upon the Question, That the final Censure of this Business shall be deterred till Nine of the Clock To-morrow in the Forenoon :

And that Mr. Secretary deliver a Message from the House to the King, to shew the thankful Acceptation of the House, of his Majesty's Message; and that the House thinketh, notwithstanding, fitting, to proceed here to the Censure of him.