House of Commons Journal Volume 1: 07 February 1621

Mercurii, 7 Februarii

Member makes Election.

Mr. Dr. Gooch chuseth to serve for Cambridge University, and waveth Truro in Cornewayle.

Bills of last Parliament.

Sir Nath. Rich moveth, the Clerk may look up all the Bills, the last Parliament, and present them to the House : And ordered, upon Question.

Sabaoth.

Sir Walter Erle delivereth in the Bill of the Sabaoth.

Bills of First Parliament.

Sir Wm. Fletewood likewise moveth for the Survey of the Bills of the first Parliament.

Reading of Bills.

Sir Tho. Trevor: - To have no Bill read the second Reading, till Nine of the Clock.

Passing of Bills.

Mr. Alford: - No Bill to be put to pass, till past Nine of the Clock; and Notice to be given, a Day before, that Bills shall be passed the next Day. - And both ordered.

Paynesewicke Manor.

L. 1. A Bill concerning Mr. Jernegan, and the Copyhold Tenants of the Manor of Paynesewicke, within the County of Gloucester.

Brewers, &c.

L. 1. An Act to restrain common Brewers and Tiplers, to be Justices of Peace within any County, City, or Town-corporate, within this Realm.

Redferne.

L. 1. - Redferne.

Sir E. Sands.

Sir Edw. Sands to be sworn, and come into the House.

Elections.

Sir Geo. Moore reporteth, from the Committee of Privileges, meeting Yesterday, first in the Exchequer Chamber, and from thence into this House. - Seven Choices, for Seven Counties, debated; others offered; not ripe ; and respited.

1. The Return of Gatton in Surrey. One Smyth, a Burgess for that Town, and a Son of Mr. Copley, appeared. - That a Precept, from the Sheriff, to the Constable, the principal Officer of the Town: He delivered it to the Minister: He published Wednesday after for the Election. Mr. Copley, Lord of the Town, a Recusant convict, with Six of his Lessees, no Freeholders, made their Choice the Tuesday before; the Freeholders made Choice, on the Wednesday, of Sir Tho. Gresham, and Sir Tho. Bludder.

This being confessed to be true, all the Committees of Opinion, the Election undue, the Return void.

2. For the Knight for Hertfordshyre, Lord Faulkeland of Scotland, made so after his Election; that, because rare, and without Precedent, left to the House.

3. All of Opinion against. ... a Clerk, returned; because had, or might have, a Voice in the Convocation-house; therefore not fit to be admitted here: And would have fined the Town, but for their Poverty.

4. For the Attorney-general, now in the Lords House; because, by his Majesty's Allowance, an Order last Meeting, against any Attorney-general being after of this House, thought fit, a new Writ.

5. Thought fit, a new Choice for Lord Beauchampe, who called to the Lords House.

6. For Grimesby; though Mr. Pelham absent beyond Sea ; because may return before the End of this Session, thought fit to continue him according to former Precedents.

7. For the Knights of Leycestershyre; where, after the Proclamation, and Writ, read, the Choice of Sir Geor. Hastings made by 1250, and Sir H. Hastinges; and Sir Tho. Beaumond questioned about being chosen, the Sheriff adjourned the Meeting till Two of the Clock that Afternoon; where those Two Gentlemen again chosen, as testified by the Certificate, and by the Under-sheriff, present with the Cornmittee: Against this, Sir Tho. Beaumond, present, objected, many of the Electors,

Copyholders; and Sir Geor, no Inhabitant in the County, nor Freeholder to his Knowlege; and that Force used, to with-hold some on the other Part, by Sound of Drum, and Staves, &c. That, the Indenture sealed by Seventeen of the principal Electors, and the Under-sheriff, the High-sheriff made Return of Sir Tho. Beaumond. The Committee fully resolved, the first Return, for Sir Geor. and Sir Henry, to be certified; and the Sheriff to be sent for, and to abide the Censure of this House.

1. For the first, of Gallon; Sir Henry Brittayne offering to speak in his own Case; Resolved, He ought not to speak in his own Case; but ought to go out, during the Dispute concerning himself.

Sir Samuel Sands: - No Member, a Delinquent, to be present here at the Treaty of the Business. Otherwise, [when] the Default in others, not in them; as here; for [here] else no body can inform the House.

Sir Tho. Trevor, accordant. - To hear him first, and then to let him go out, before the Question.

Sir Jerome Horsey : - That he Yesterday taxed the Committee, because not understood.

Mr. Finch: - To exclude him; for so in all Courts.

Sir Ro. Phillippes concordat cum Sir Tho. Trevor; and that Mr. Finch mistook Sir Tho. Trevor.

Mr. Glanvyle, accordant. - To hear him, because accused of no Crime: So to hear him as an Informer; and then not to let him sit here, either to observe others, or to he a Judge.

Resolved, He shall be heard.

Sir H. Britayne: - As to the Objection, that the Choice of him before Wednesday; he unknown to them. The Writ directed, Burgensibus; and delivered to Mr. Copley. The Town but of Seven Houses; all, but One, Copleye's Tenants. That the Election by them good, being not by Freeholders. That they agreed upon their Election in Gatton, and sealed it casually in Rygate. That this Election good in Law. That all the Freeholders, except One, dwelt out of the Town, and only held of the Manor within the Town.

This spoken, he went out.

Sir Wm. Cope: - That the hearing him thus, a Wrong to the Committee.

Sir Edw. Mountague, accordant. - Never heard any such Contestation against the Committee. - Held there long. - 1. The Election made in Rigate, as confessed by Mr. Copley; and prescribed Use in chusing there. 2. The Precipitation in chusing made it. - Moveth, a Warrant, for a new Election,

Sir Edw. Coke: - The Orders of the House, of all Things, most precious. - 1. Common Law fined, and refined, well, 2ly, Act of Parliament, which is to be made by ourselves. Anciently, the Committee, like a Jury, for Matter in Fact; which veredictum, and that not to be questioned against; but Question de jure, upon that Fact, may be made, and disputed here. - Commendeth the Report of the Committee. - That the Finger of God, this Man should not be of this House.

Mr. Alford: - This Precedent, of tying to the Committee, dangerous, Friends oft to the Committee. The Committee oft agreeth ; yet, after, the House directly against it. - Voucheth Two Precedents.

Sir Samuel Sands: - A double Question raised: 1. Of the Fact: 2ly, [Of] the Right. Veredictum a Conclusion in Fact. -

The Return veredictum. - A sufficient Warrant to appear, take his Oath, and enter into the House. -

For the Point of Right, as to the Precipitation; the Warning, by the Minister, not good, not legal; therefore their Meeting after, by Force of that, not good. The Election returned. For the Place; if the Dean and Chapter agree upon a Grant in the Chapter-house, and seal in another Place, good. - To do him Justice, and not to put him out, for this Cause. - Thinketh, there will be other Causes to put him out. No Out-dweller, in County or Borough, an Elector, either by Law, or Usage.

Sir Edw. Giles: - That this toucheth not our Privileges. Oft others, upon like Questions, thrust out. The Notice, by the Minister, good. - Not done in Time, or Place; therefore to put him out.

Sir Wm. Strowde, accordant.

Sir Tho. Rowe, - That the Election in another Place, for some special End. That averred at the Committee, that but One Freeholder, a Recusant, and a Fugitive. The Suspicion, in regard the Election procured by Copley, a Recusant. - To put him out.

Mr. Hackwyll: - That this Place officina legum. As all Instruments, made by the Hand; so the Parliament House lex legum: To keep it therefore pure. - Dangerous to be bound, or not to examine the Sheriffs Returns.

- Satisfied by the Report of the Committee. - To put him out,

1. Q. As many, as hold this Election good, say, Yea:

- Not One Yea.

As many, as hold it naught, say, No : - General Voice, No.

Sir H. Poole, - against a new Election, in respect of Danger from Copley.

Sir Humfrey May, contra.

Sir Jo. Strangwayes, cum Sir H. Poole.

Sir Edw. Coke: - No Question, but the Sheriffs Returns to be examined here. -

The Election of Sir Tho. Gresham, and Sir Tho. Blodder, to stand; and the Sheriff to be commanded to bring in the Indenture of their Election. - And ordered, upon Question.

2. For Viscount Fawkeland, elected Knight for Hertfordshyre, before he was a Baron of Scotland.

Sir Ro. Phillippes, because the Precedent rare, moveth to refer it till To-morrow. -

Sir Samuel Sands explaineth himself. He never intended to speak against the Examination of Sheriff's Returns.

Mr. Price: - That we should take no Notice here of his Honour in Scotland, which a distinct Kingdom; and he but, in England, as One of the Commons.

Mr. Alford, accordant: For else shall be neither of the Upper House, nor Lower House here. - Is not to be tried here per pares Viscounts.

Mr. Hackwyll, accordant: For the Reason of not serving [here,] because a Voice, or attendeth, above; Clerks [of] the Convocation, &c.

Mr. Crew: - Whether the Question now only for this Particular, or generally, for all Lords of Scotland, or Ireland. - To have this determined.

Sir H. Poole: - No Englishman, but to be either of the Upper or Lower House. - Continueth a Subject of this Kingdom still.

Sir Edw. Coke: - Cannot be silent in this. - Excellent Learning to determine it genere. Trial here per pares. For Nobility, not by Dukes, for Dukes; but by the Nobility. - Either of the Upper or Lower House, except some few Cases. - A Knight not to be tried by Knights. Every Englishman not of Upper or Lower House. Nowell put out, because had Voice in Convocation. A Bannerett cannot serve here, in respect of the Honour he hath at Funerals, &c. - Past his reading, therefore will not read of it. -

In this Particular, could wish him to be of the House.

- In his last Quarter: In the Wane of the Moon. - If a Duke of Scotland, sued by the Name of an Esquire here. 20o H. IV. Ocorcke, an Earl of Ireland, tried here by Gentlemen. A Duke of Britayne no Addition to an English Earl, in Suit, 20 Ed. IV- - A worthy Gentleman, of excellent Qualities. Putting him out may break our Privileges. He chosen, when no Viscount. The Matter ex post facto, not to put him out. No Disgrace to Scotland, or Ireland; for a Nobleman there, none here.

Mr. Mallett concurreth for Point of Law; but this House an House of Counsel. - That the Reason of severing from the Higher House, Freedom of Delivery of our

Minds, when further from the Lords. - No Exception to this Particular; yet a leading Case, and the Precedent may increase. - Therefore moveth a deferring.

Mr. Amnerst accordant.

Sir Edw. Mountague; - By Law, to serve; but a Council to foresee what fitting. Mr. Attorney not to serve here. - A Gap, to open A Way to all Noblemen of Scotland, naturalized, to sit here, and thrust us out.

Sir Tho. Rowe: - To consider, whether he, chosen, being a Knight, and no Lord, at the Election, shall be received. - As in the Case, last time, of Mr. Attorney.

Sir Christopher Hildyard, accordant.

Resolved, To stay, to be further advised upon, upon the Question.

Member returned without his Consent.

Mr. Alford: - In respect the Time spent, to proceed no further in the Report this Day; and therefore to hear Sir Edw. Sands : Which ordered accordingly.

Sir Edw. Sands: - That sent for, come: Sworn. - Neither Ease, nor Unwillingness to serve the: King, Country, and this House, kept him away ; but the great Haste of a Business of Weight, lying upon him, made him absent. -

Chosen by a Borough, without his Consent, or Privity; annexed a Condition to it, to come down, and be sworn a Burgess: He refused it. - Prayeth to be spared, either wholly, or in Part, for the other Service.

Resolved, Not to spare him at all; but to leave him in State, as all other Members of the House.

Member makes Election.

Mr. Treasurer, elected for Bewdley and Dorchester, electeth to serve for Bewdley.