House of Commons Journal Volume 1: 21 April 1621

Sabbati, 21o Aprilis

Rates of Corn, &c.

L. 1a. AN Act for the better increasing of the decayed Rates of Corn, Cattle, and other Country Commodities, by Repeal of some Branches of the Statute made 5o Ed. VI. against Regrators, &c.

Irish Cattle, &c.

L. 1a. An Act against the Importation of Irish Cattle into England, and the Exporting of Coin out of England into Ireland.

Bishop of Coventry.

L. 2a. Coventry. - Sir H. Poole. - This Bill long. - Against the Body of the Bill. - Committed to Knights and Burgesses of Warwickshyre, Mr. Weston, Sir Jerome Horsey, Mr. Coucher, Sir Tho. Puckering, Mr. Taylor, Mr. Writtington, Mr. Noye, Mr. Carvyll, Citizens of Coventry and Lichfield, Sir Geor. Moore, Mr. Attorney Duchy : - Tuesday next. Exchequer Chamber.

Apparel.

L. 2a. An Act concerning Apparel, and the Waste of Gold and Silver used therein, -

Mr. Brooke : - That Rapiers, gilded, may be worn by Knights, as well as Spurs. - To commit it.

Sir Geor. Moore: - That here no Difference made of Apparel.

Mr. Alford, - Against the Seizing of their Apparel. -

Committed to Master of the Wards, Mr. Brooke, Sir Geo. Moore, Mr. Alford, Sir Je. Horsey, Sir Phil. Cary, Sir H. Poole, Mr. Wm. Spencer, Sir Pet. Fretchwell, Sir Francis Popham, Sir Hamond Strange, Sir Myles Sands, Sir Ro. Askew, Lord Wriothesley,Mr. Gifford, Mr. Crew, Sir Edw. Sackvyle, Sir Edw. Mountagew, Sir Cary Reynolds, Sir Geor. Manners, Sir Tho. Row, Sir H. Withrington, Sir Guy Palmes, Sir Wm. Fleetewood, Sir Tho. Barrington, Sir Francis Darcy, Sir Edw. Cecill, Sir Tho. Hinton, Sir Tho. Holland, Mr. Nevill, Sir Jo. Jepkson, Mr. Cooke, Sir D. Digges, Sir M. Fleetewood, Sir Nath. Rich, Mr. Pelham, Mr. Carye, Mr. Towerson: - Wednesday next, Court of Wards.

Cloth Trade,

L. 2a. An Act for the better venting of the Cloth of this Kingdom. Sir Jo. Jephson : - Hard, to make a Law, whereby we shall not know our Wives from our Chamber-maids.

Sir Edw. Sackvyle: - That this will be a Hindrance to the Bringing in of Silk, gold and silver Lace, &c.

Mr. Towerson: - To be added, that none, under the Degree of a Baron, should mourn in any thing but Cloth. - _

Committed to the same Committee.

Informers, &c.

Sir Edw. Coke reporteth from the Conference; which weighty of itself, and in respect of some Circumstances. -

At their coming to the Conference, Lord Treasurer began, gravely and discreetly, no ways hindering the Proceedings of the Bill: - That the Lords had received, from the King's learned Counsel, some Objections. -

That the Extent of the Words might extend further, than the Intention here. - That the Lords made no Objections, but as from the King's learned. Counsel. - Hortensius melius dixit, quam scripsit. -

Lord Treasurer, as from the King's learned Counsel, delivered Eleven Objections; and Mr. Attorney added Four more: So as he was to answer 15 Objections of the Counsel of the King. - At a Mote-case never useth Writing, nor did now. -

1. That, as the Bill penned, all Treasons, Felonies, and Praemunires, not longer triable in Westmynster Hall, but in propria com' before Justices of Assise, &c.

2ly, The greatest Part of the Jurisdiction of the Star-chamber. -

3ly, A Subterfuge for a Delinquent never to be punished : As, if an Offender in Norfolke slipt into Suffolke, not to be meddled with.

4ly, That the King's Attorney-general restrained, except he will go over all England; and yet he sueth pro Domino Rege.

5ly, That the Party grieved, no Power to complain, but in the Country; where else, might have complained here.

61y, A great Clog to the Subject, instead of Ease: For no Power given here to make an Attorney in those Courts; and peradventure is sick, cannot come.

7ly, Liberties of the Universities, Cinque Ports, &c. taken away.

8ly, Almost an Impossibility to punish any : For the Informer is to be sworn; who knoweth it not, but hath it by Relation of another: And One cannot be Informer, and Witness : So would take away his Testimony.

9ly, If Extortion be committed in Westmynster Hall Courts, that not to be tried there, but by Commission by Oyer and Terminer.

10ly, Sheriffs, and Justices of the Peace, now may do what they list.

11ly, All Informations, concerning Coin, are to be determined in the Country, not here.

12ly, Newgate in One County, yet serveth also for another.

13. Some Offences made dispunishable : As, if one engross in One, and sell in another, County : For this indivisible, and must needs be coupled together.

14. The Law shall relate to the Beginning of the Parliament; and so, though made not to take Effect till the End of the Session, yet all Offences, meane, are within the Bill.

15. That this Law, making so great a Change, is at the first made perpetual; where should have been made but a Probationer.

- That, when he had heard the Lord Treasurer, and King's learned Counsel, he said, he ever looked for many Opposers to this Bill; because many benefit by -

That he laboured also to divert it from the King's learned Counsel; for the Attorney-general as constant an honest Man, as ever any ; and therefore laid it upon the Officers of Courts, whose the Gain; many whereof, he said, had Places, Seven Times as much more worth as the Puisne Judges. - That in many Years the King had received little Profit by these Informers. That the Informers maintain the Officers. -

1. For the first; - Out of the Intention and Words of the Bill. The Title sheweth it: - Troublesome Persons, called Informers: - And the Preamble sheweth it; which is only for common Informers: - And if he should compound for Treason, Felony, or Premunire, he incurreth the same Penalty. So as the Composition sheweth, it was never intended. - " For Remedy whereof," sheweth it. - Old Statutes short, and better for Interpretation. - Never knew an Informer inform for Treason, Felony, or Premunire, - Cannot sue or prosecute a Traytor, Felon, &c. for must be indicted.

2. For the Star-chamber ; confesseth, he thinketh, it keepeth all England in Order. - That, sithence at Yorke, Wales, &c. Riots punishable, dismisseth, for his Opinion, divers of them thence. But Riots are at the Common Law, and not by Statute; which this Law extendeth only to.

Ob. That Forgeries and Perjuries are by Statute Law provided against, and examinable in Star-chamber.

Resp. That pars gravata only hath the Suit in both those Cases, by Statute: And no Suit there by common Informers, but for the King only ; and he may pardon any thing informed there. If a Suit in the Star-chamber, by Information. -

7o Eiiz. -

Ob. That this Bill taketh away the Jurisdiction of King's Bench, Common Place, and Exchequer.

Resp. This Bill meddleth with no Information, which is appointed to be determined in any of those Courts (Courts of Record, intended in Statute, One of the Four at Westmynster) but only, where an Informer hath an Election, to sue above, or in the Country, confineth him to his Trial in the Country, and so taketh his Election away.

3. If J. S. commit an Offence, and will run out of the Country, it is well rid of him : But besides, may be outlawed, and that Outlawry sent up.

4. Thinketh indeed the Attorney-general restrained from informing here; but may in the Country, and appoint his Deputy there.

But, if he at Liberty, all Informations may be brought in his Name, if an ill Attorney.

5. The.....

6. The Court may assign an Attorney, if Cause of Sickness, by Affidavit. - This out of the Quiver of some Officer of the Crown Office, or Exchequer.

7. Would not hinder the Jurisdiction of the Universities, &c. The Word "Liberty," in the Bill, extendeth to all these, in his Opinion; but, if they doubted, would agree to an Explanation.

8. The Oath of the Informer necessary. - 31 Eliz. a good Law, to confine the Informations to the County; but the Pleading to an Information, laid in another County, costly: Therefore to prevent this by Oath. 2 H. IV. 5 H. IV. an honest Plaintiff is to swear; therefore reasonable, a false Informer should.

9. All Extortions, against the Common Law; and better thus, than by Statute. Many penal Laws are but Snares to the People.

10. The Under Sheriffs commonly not so well beloved, but may be sued; but already provided for by 31 Eliz. which tieth it to the County.

11. Never any Informer informeth upon Treason, Felony, &c.

12. Wisheth, there were fewer Sessions at Newdigate. - Preventing Justice better. But, if their Justiceship of Gaol-delivery extend to both, then they proceed in either.

13. No great Harm, though Suits, now depending, be within this Law : The Charge of the Pleading not great.

14. .....

15. The Perpetuity fit enough, for any Thing he knoweth. -

That Mr. Attorney-general would have replied; but he answered, though he of Opinion, as aforesaid; yet would agree to an Explanation. - Ever afraid of a Commending Adversary. - Qui tollit medium, destruit finem. - That the Prince called him again, saying, they wished another Meeting; and to have Authority on both Parts, from the Houses, to set down some Heads of Explanation. - That the Lords, that spake, shewed their great Liking of this Bill. -

That the Prince said, they should not meet again till Tuesday; and therefore desired, the said second Meeting might be then, at Two of the Clock in the Afternoon. -

That a grave Bishop made an Objection; whereto he answered, that, when People brought low by Vexation, and diminished, &c. -

This, by a general Consent, confirmed.

Resolved, To send a Message on Tuesday Morning.

Sir Edw. Coke, Mr. Crew, Mr. Noye, Mr. Recorder, Sir Jo. Walter, Sir Sam. Sands, Sir H. Poole, Mr. Glanvyle, Sir Edw. Sands, Mr. Hackwyll, to prepare for this Conference in the mean time : To meet on Monday Morning, in the Committee Chamber.

Sir J. Perrott: - That, if any Lawyer, or other Member of this House, conceiveth any further Doubt, he will inform the Committee of it.

Carriage Purveyance.

Sir Wm. Fleetwood: - To speed the Business for Carriages; which One of the King's Offers, the last Convention in Parliament. - This a greater Burthen, in many Places, than an annual Subsidy. - Tendereth a Petition from the Grand Jury of the County of Buck.

L. 2a. .....

Sir Geor. Moore: - That this Bill over-much clogged, and hard to be executed. - Moveth, that the Purveyors may, at the Quarter Sessions, bring in the Numbers of the Carriages, which have served. - And, to take some Light herein. -

Sir Charles Morryson: - That Ro. Birchmore, Bingham, and Slingesby Gray, to be sent for, for taking. -

Mr. Wentworth: - That this Bill interfereth with the Bill of Informers.

- Sir Edw. Coke, Sir Geor. Moore, Sir Wm. Fleetwood, Sir Jerome Horsey, Sir Francis Darcy, Sir Edw. Peyton, Sir Ro. Phillippes, Knights'and Burgesses of Cambridge, Suffolke, and Norfolke, Sir Ro. Moore, Sir D. Digges, Sir

Francis Barrington, Sir Charles Morrison: All, that will come, to have Voice : - Thursday next, Exchequer Chamber. - Any of the King's Officers, that will come, to be heard at the Committee.

Ingrossed Bills.

The Ingrossed Bills to be read upon Monday, at Nine of the Clock.

Charge of Bribery agt Bennett.

The Witnesses, whose Names are now given in by Cilvert, to be here.

The Order, and Heads, for Sir Jo. Bennett, to be sent him.

Mr. Alford, Mr. Mallory, Sir Geor. Moore, Sir Rich. Tichborne, Sir D. Digges, Sir H. Withrington, Mr. Pymme, Sir Francis Seymor, Sir Guy Palmes, Mr. Hackwill, Sir H. Poole, Mr. Sherfeild, Sir Tho. Row, added to the former Committee : - To meet this Afternoon, in the Star-chamber.

Patent for Alehouses, &c.

Mr. Mallory remembereth the Patent of Alehouses ; Which a great Grievance.

Sir Francis Seymour: - The Patent condemned. - To question the Referees. To clear the King's Honour in it, who trusted these Referees in his Honour in it. They informed the King, this Patent good by Law. The Pretence, the Reformation of Abuses: The Intention great. - The Patentees, Dixon and Almond, Servants of the Referees; Companions, not fit for this Trust; where Justices of Peace neglected. - That they durst not have adventured this, without Animation of their great Masters. - No Judge, but the Chief Justice alone, meddled in it. - They sell the several Shires. - This done, by their own Confession, by their Masters Incitation. - The Great Seal, 5 l. 10s. the Chief Justice Warrant, 5 s. the Scire Facias, 2s. 6 d.

Sir Ed. Gyles: - Sithence we have begun. -

Sir H. Hastinges: - Hath some Warrants concerning this Business, which will bring to the Committee.

Mr. Noye: - That he hath done nothing in it, as yet, without Warrant.

Mr. Mallett (after Leave given him to shew his Reasons) - The End of questioning this Business at first, Reformation,and not Destruction. - If the Parties, questioned, have offended, sithence the Matter questioned here, or sithence the Proclamation, to punish them. - Doubteth, it will discontent the King, to offer to punish these Offences.

Sir H. Withrington: - To proceed in this Business, as in the other for Inns. Not to doubt good Success, both from the Lords, and King. Having already ordered it, not to suffer it to die.

Sir Ro. Phillippes: - To consider hereof till Monday.

Sir Tho. Row: - No Desire to prosecute these Offenders : Yet not to let it sleep. - Not to have the Patent taken away only by a Proclamation, but to be condemned by a Parliamentary Course.

Sir Geor. Moore: - The King having taken away this already, to move this to the King, to know his Pleasure.

Sir Edw. Sackvyle : - The King hath condemned this by Proclamation; but better have stood, than that it should be only taken away by Proclamation. To do it now by a Parliamentary Course.

Mr. Alford: - To proceed to take this away by Act of Parliament. - 35 H. VIII. an Act of Parliament, to take away the Interest gotten by the Great Seal, upon Kirkhams counterfeiting the Attorney-general's Hand.

Master of the Wards : - To go on in a Parliamentary Manner.

Sir Edw. Coke : - That no Law could overthrow that Estate to Kirkham; but, if a Thing be granted under the Great Seal, which is void in Law, otherwise, - Fit to make good to the Lords, what we have done here; viz. to condemn the Patent. - To proceed to the Punishment of the Offenders for the Offences past. The King's Proclamation is for the future; and of great Grace. - To damn it in a Parliamentary Course.

Sir. J. Horsey:- GreatExpectation of this in theCountry.

Sir D. Digges: - The King's Grace in the Proclamation. - The King, in the Proclamation, hath made good our Judgment here, in condemning it. - Because therefore justified above, to stand with Law, to proceed upon that Ground; and to let so much be made known to the King, by the Master of the Wards, as from himself.

Upon Question, to go on and proceed, according to the former Order, in the Manner concerning Alehouses; without One Negative.

Sir Edw. Coke, Master of the Wards, Sir Francis Seymor, Sir Ro. Phillippes, Sir Edw. Payton, Sir Geor. Manners, Sir M. Sands, Sir Francis Goodwyn, Sir H. Hastinges, Mr. Crew, Mr. Hackwill, Mr. Alford, Sir Edw. Gyles, Sir A. Ingram, Sir Geor. Moore, Sir Tho. Hobby, Sir H. Withrington, Sir Tho. Row, Sir D. Digges, Sir Edw. Sackvyle, Sir J. Horsey, Mr. Noye, Sir Edw. Cecill:

- Monday Afternoon, Two of Clock, Court of Wards. - Authority to send for any they shall think fit; and particularly, for the former Persons nominated upon the last Order.

Sir Edw. Coke: - The Lords have Power to judge this Patent void, and not proceed by Bill.

Statutes.

Mr. Noye moveth, to divide the Committees for Statutes, and this Committee, at their own Election.

Resolved, The Committee for Statutes shall not, this Afternoon, meddle with the Branch of Repeals; because Mr. Noye is to attend the Committee for Sir Jo. . . .