House of Commons Journal Volume 1: 05 May 1621

Sabbati, 5 Maii

Watermen.

L. 1a. WATERMEN.

Women not attending Church.

L. 1a. An Act for the more speedy Levying of the Penalty of Twelve Pence, forfeited by any married Woman, for not repairing to the Church, to hear divine Service.

Priests.

Mr. Langston preferreth a Petition against the Pursevants, that compound with Priests. Moveth, this Petition may be considered by the Committee, Yesterday appointed for Recusants. - Ordered.

Bankrupts.

Bankrupts : - Tuesday next. Exchequer Chamber.

Larceny.

L. 1a. An Act concerning petit Larceny, and the Manner of Punishment of Offenders therein.

Moor-burning.

L. 1a. - Moor-burning.

Coal Patent.

Mr. Snelling: - That a Patent granted to Sir... Boyle, for Survey of Sea-coals; which suspended by the Lords of the Council. That a new granted to Roger Langford. - Moveth, this Patent may be brought in to the Committee for Grievances ; and may proceed no further, till determined here. - Ordered: - Upon Friday next.

French Patent.

The French Patent to be brought in upon Monday next.

Chancery.

The Committee, for regulating the Chancery, to be upon Tuesday next peremptorily, in the Star-chamber.

Jurors.

Bill of Jurors, - Wednesday next. Exchequer Chamber.

Cloth Trade.

L. 2a. - Clothing. -

Sir H. Poole : - This Bill made at the Clothiers Suit, and at their Request. The worst, the Length; which may be helped at the Committee. The Scope good. - Let the Merchant have time, till Friday Noon, to buy; after, all others to have Liberty to buy.

Sir Geor. Moore: - To give a Pre-emption to the Clothier, for the Encouragement. - That Clothiers, in some Respects, good Members; in other, not: For give not the Poor competent Wages: - 3 d. a Day, and no more, to divers. -

Committed to the Two former Committees for Clothing : And all, that will come, to have Voice: - Wednesday next, Star-chamber : And the other Two Bills for Clothing, at the same Time; the same standing formerly committed. - The Petition, to be delivered with it, delivered in by Mr. Clench.

Colchester Paving.

L. 2a. - Colchester - Sir H. Poole: - That this Bill will not be good for the Town of Colchester, by reason of the great Impositions upon Merchandizes. - Is against the Body of Bill ; because imposeth upon Merchandizes, and so hindereth free Trade. - That Paving both worthy a Parliament.

Mr. Alford: - Precedents, not for paving, and imposing, by several Acts of Parliament. -

Committed to Mr. Alford, Knights and Burgesses of Essex, Sir George Moore, Sir Edw. Peyton, Sir D. Digges, Sir Ro. Askew, Sir Ro. Payne, Mr. Noye, Sir Wm. Strowde, Sir Tho. Low, Mr. Bartlet, Sir Tho. Bartlett, Sir Nath. Rich, Mr. Mallory, Knights of the Shire and Burgesses of Suffolke, Burgesses of Port Towns, Burgesses of Cinque Ports: - Thursday next, Star-chamber.

Tewkesbury Bridge.

L. 2a. - Teukesbury. -

Mr. Langston, - for the Body of the Bill. - That Gloucester a County of itself, extending 7 or 8 Miles round about; and, if they be left out, will have much Benefit, some Part of the said Towns being within Three Miles of Tewkesbury. - That therefore they may contribute.

Mr. Berkeley: - That this Bill against Law and Equity.

- By Law, all Towns corporate to bear their own Charge of Bridges. - That Tewkesbury standeth near Three other Counties, which have more Benefit, than Gloucestershyre. That they use it not almost at all. That they are able enough to do it.- - Gloucestershire never yet charged with it. - That they are able to do it; for now in hand with a Work, which will cost 3,000 l. That they offer many Wrongs to the County - Bohemia Gathering, and the Subsidy now.

Sir D. Digges: - Sorry, the Town hath offended this Gentleman. - No Cause to desire an Act of Parliament, but that the Act of Parliament mentioned is against them. - Not able.

Sir Edw. Coke: - To commit the Bill. - Commendeth both these Two last Speakers. - There must be great Cause to alter a Law - He, that hath the Benefit, is to bear the Charge.

Mr. Guy; - Not against the Body of the Bill: Against the Clause, to except Bristow, as Part of the County of Gloucester; which no Part. - Not to have the Extent into all Parts of the Shire, Part whereof 45 Miles from Tewkesbury. - Not to exceed 10 Miles from thence.

Mr. Wyld, - for the Bill; and for the Extent through all the County of Gloucester; that no Part of Worcestershyre to be charged, because have a great Charge of a Bridge near at hand.

Sir Wm. Cope, - against the Committing.

Mr. Robinson, contra. -

Committed to Sir D. Digges, Knights and Burgesses of Gloucester and Worcestershyre, and Stafford, and South Wales, Sir Edw. Baynton, Mr. Langston, Mr. Smyth, Mr. Nicholas, Sir M. Fleetewood, Mr. Pye, Sir A. Ingram, Mr. Connesby, Sir Tho. Low, Sir B. Hickes, Mr. Cooke :

- Thursday next, Exchequer Chamber.

Imprisonment.

Magna Charta.

L. 2a. An Act for better Securing of the Subjects.

Sir Tho. Low:- - Knoweth not, how far this Bill extendeth, to the Prejudice of London, and Corporations,

Sir H. Poole: - Wisheth well to this Bill; yet wisheth Consideration of Matters of State.

Mr. Serjeant Ashley ; - Glad of this Bill. - To have it extend to Corporations ; who take too much Liberty. - Magna Charta provideth only against Commitments against Law : Now Imprisonment by Monopolists, Proclamations, &c.

Sir Edw. Coke: - Wisheth well to the Generality of this Bill; yet feareth, as penned, will not pass. Concurreth with Serjeant Ashley - Magna Charta 32 times confirmed in Parliament. - Great Cause of reviving this Statute. - Never so many falsely imprisoned, as of late. - Power of Imprisonment by Charters. - Power for Corporations to imprison, for want of Performance of a By-law, void. - If a Monopoly, and a Proclamation upon it, worthy to be punished, that advised it. -

That divers Matters of State, which not to be comprehended in the Warrant; for then may be disclosed. - Will never pass above. - Morrys put in the same Bill, which rejected. - One committed by the Body of the Council, not bailable by Law. Resolved so by all the Judges, in Wraye's Time, upon a Commitment by King, or Body of Council: For this out of the Statute of Magna Charta. - Adviseth London, and Corporations, how they commit free Men. - No Man can commit by Discretion :

- May commit him for the good Behaviour. - Not to commit upon a By-law. - To have this extend no further than Magna Charta.

Committed to Mr. Treasurer, Sir Edw. Coke, Sir Wm. Fleetewood, Sir Rich. Tichborne, Sir H. Poole, Citizens of London and Yorke, Sir Ge. Moore, Sir Francis Darcy, Sir Ro. Phillippes, Sir Geor. Manners, Sir Edw. Sands, Sir Edw. Mountague, Sir Wm. Spencer, Serjeant Ashley, Sir P. Fretchwell, Mr. Noye, Sir Wm. Strowde, Sir 0. Luke, Sir Nath. Rich, Sir M. Fleetewood, Sir Edw. Peyton, Sir G. Gerrard, Sir J. Horsey, Sir D. Norton: - Tuesday next Star-chamber, Sir Wm. Fleetewood to take care of this Bill.

Light-houses.

Sir Ed. Coke moveth for the Reading of the Bill for Light-houses.

Privilege.

Sir Ro. Phillippes moveth for Sir Jo. Strangwayes, for Stay of a Matter against him, upon an Ejectione firmae, for Lands concerning him. - Resolved, A Warrant to issue, under Mr. Speaker's Hand, to the Party, for Stay of those Proceedings.

Sea-marks.

L. 2a. - Sea-marks.

Sir Geor. Moore: - That this Bill, in Substance, once resolved to sleep, ought not to be received in again.

Dr. Zouche. - This to stay till Monday,and then to have thePrecedence.

Jurisdiction of Parliament- Punishing Floyde.

Mr. J. Doddridge and Mr. J. Hutton bring a Message, from the Lords, in Writing; which read by Mr. J. Doddridge ; desiring a Conference about Floyde's Business.

The Messengers said, they had Power to read it, as often as we would, or to give it us, to let us take a Copy of it; but must return it back. Whereupon a Copy taken by the Clerk.

Mr. Alford: - The Message fair. - To return the like.

- To hold the Time.

Sir Edw. Sands, accordant.

Sir J. Perrott: - Monday in the Afternoon.

Mr. Chancellor of the Duchy: - To meet now, to hear, and report to the House.

Sir Edw. Cecill, and Sir Tho. Hobby: - To return Answer by Messengers of our own; and to hear now only.

Answer : That we have received this Message with a great deal of Contentment and Comfort; and that will . . . Messengers of our own, sitting the Court.

Sir Ed. Mountague: - To send to the Lords, that we will confer, so far as to hear, but not presently to answer.

Sir Sam. Sands: - Embraceth the Message with great Alacrity. - To do this really, as well as formally in Words.

- That the Lords desire not to expostulate. - By forbearing thus, we deny truly to confer. - That the Issue will be, 1. Whether we a Court of Record. 2ly. Whether we Jurisdiction. - To grant a Conference, as is desired. - That, what we can produce for us, will be rather upon Reason, than Precedent.

Sir Edw. Coke: - That the Lords, in the Conference, are to begin ; we then to make some probable Answer; and, if Cause, then to require further Time.

Mr. Alford, accordant; Sir J. Perrott, contra; Mr. Brooke, cum Sir Edw. Coke.

Sir Wm. Strowde: - Not to restrain the Conference.

Master of the Wards :- First to send the Message, and then to debate.

Master of the Wards sent with the Message ; wherein he directed, first to shew the Comfort of the House in the Lords Message, and Correspondency with them; and then. -

Sir Geor. Moore . - That, this a Court of Record, and have Conusance of this Cause. That, we may judge this Cause, without Oath, as we do in divers other Cases. - Have fined, and imprisoned, in divers Cases, and yet done it, without Oath.

Sir Sam. Sands: - That this Question grown upon a particular Fact; therefore, by no Propositions, to be drawn from this to any other Matters. - To handle, the Heads here to justify our Privileges, 1. That this a Court of Record, in ancient Reputation; and so used, and proved to be so, by divers Effects.

Dr. Gouch : - This House may give Oath : - Not necessary, every Judgment should be given upon Oath. -

1. May proceed by Qath, incident to every Court of Record: No Precedent to the contrary, 2ly, Not necessary to all Judgments to give an Oath: As, when the Thing notoriously, known, or confessed : Where, coram non Judice, void: Where unjust; yet good, till reversed : So still here good. 3ly, We have proceeded here by Oath; the greatest Oaths of the Witnesses, that could be. The tendering of the Book not necessary. Abraham's Servant swore, by putting his Hand under Abraham's Thigh. No Exception to be taken to Want of Solemnity, where a sovereign Court (as this) from which no Appeal.

Sir Edw. Sands : - The Lords End being to accommodate, thinketh, they will neither question our being a Court of Record, nor the Matter of giving an Oath. The proper Question will be, whether the Subject be within our Conusance. This a doubtful Question. - Propoundeth a Narration to be made of the whole Matter. - This came hither accidentally : - That it concerning the King's Blood, we thought not fit to mix any other Thing with it. - The King present here, and in all Courts. - Not to enter into any solemn Debate. 2ly, To make a Protestation to the Lords, that we intended not, in this, to encroach upon the Liberties of their House.

Mr. Hackwill: - That this Judgment justum, and juste.

- i. This a Court of Record; confessed so by the. King, in the first Session of Parliament, and by the Statute 6 H. VIII. 2ly, A Consequent, and Incident to a Court of Record, to give an Oath. - That, we have done, equivalent to an Oath. - That, if any Man shall here speak upon his Allegiance, and falsly, we may send him to the Tower, and fine him. -

That 15o Ed. II. in the Judgment of the Spencers, the same, being after, 28o Edw. III. questioned, was reversed by the King, Lords, and Commons. That 4 Ed. III. a Judgment given against Mortymer, Earl of March: That questioned 28o Ed. III. and reversed by the King, Lords, and Commons [a].

Mr. Alford - many Heads. - Mr. Hackwill, Mr. Noye, Mr. Glanvyle, Mr. Brooke, Dr. Gooch, - Point of Law; and to acquaint Sir Edw. Coke with it: Point of Reason,

- Sir Edw. Sands, Sir Sam. Sands, Sir Ro. Phillippes, Sir D. Digges, Sir Edw. Coke, Mr. Hackwill, Mr. Brooke, and the rest, to meet with him at Two of the Clock, in the Court of Wards.

Master of the Wards : - Like, the Questions will be, whether we be a Court of Record, or not; and whether we have Conusance of any thing of this Nature. - Wisheth, if we put upon those Straits, to take Time of Advice.

Sir Edw. Coke: - First the State of the Cause to be related, as a Narrative.

Sir Sam. Sands: - To meddle with this particular, not go to generals.