House of Commons Journal Volume 1: 10 August 1625

Mercurii, 10 Augusti

Deligne's Nat.

L. 1a. AN Act for Naturalization of Sir D. Deligne, Knight.

Bave's Nat.

L. 1a. An Act for Naturalization of Samuel Bave.

Message from the King.

Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer delivereth a Message from his Majesty. - Forborn, till the House fuller.

Petitions read.

A Petition, from Mr. Burlimachi, read.

Sir Ro. Pye moveth, a Committee, to con ......

Another Petition from Mr. Hart, read.

Publick Expenditure.

Sir Tho. Hobby, moveth, the Knights and Burgesses may meet, and set down, what Money is disbursed by the Country. - Agreed.

Sir Tho. Wentworth, Sir Ro. Pye, Sir Francis Barrington, Sir Ch. Morrisom, Sir Jo. Stradling, Sir Rich. Newport, Sir Ro. Cholmeley, Sir Al. St. John, Lord St. John, Sir John Jephson, Sir Tho. Hobby, Sir Geor. Goring: Every one, that will come, to have Voice : - Friday, Two Clock, Arithmetick Schools.

Message from the King. - Supply.

Mr. Chancellor : - That his Majesty, having taken Notice, that this House intendeth to enter into Consideration of divers Heads, concerning King, and Commonwealth, hath sent by him this Message: That he was well pleased with their good Intentions; but desired them to consider his Affairs require a speedy Dispatch : 2ly, The Season far past, yet seasonable: 3ly, If the Plague should happen in the Navy, the Action would be lost: 3ly [b], If any here should be touched, the like would be. Therefore desireth a present Answer about his Supply. - If not, will take Care of our Health, more than we ourselves; and will make as good Shift for his present Occasions, as he can. If will now give, giveth his Royal Word, that in Winter, at what Time we shall chuse, we shall meet again, and hold together, till we have perfected all these Things for the Commonwealth, and the King, which are now in Conception ; and give such Answer thereunto, as dutiful and loving Subjects may expect from a gracious and religious King. Desireth us to consider that is the first Request he ever made unto us.

Supply.

Master of the Wards: - Qui tarde dat, diu noluit. - l. The Reputation of King and Kingdom, in Point of Honour; the War, now in Preparation, moving from Parliament. 2. The Consideration of the disasterous Estate of the King's Royal Sister. 3. The common Cause of Religion in great Danger Abroad, and suffereth at Home; which greatly prospered whilst we free from Idolatry here. - Many Miseries upon us, sithence Connivency at that. - 4. Consideration of our Confederates abroad ; who will fall asunder, if our King hold not them together. 5. The Danger, of King, Lords, and us all, by the Sickness, by longer Continuance.

Mr. Alford moveth, the Order for a Committee may proceed. - But the Vote of the House, that this inter-venient Message is first to be debated in the House.

Mr. Maynard. - To decline the Word Engagement, and Subsidy in Reversion. - That the King's Speech was maximum in minimo, the other Speeches minimum in maximo. - Moveth, One Subsidy, Two Fifteens.

Sir S. Weston . - To repeal now the Two Subsidies, and add to them, as the House shall think fit: So no Subsidy shall be granted in Reversion.

Conference.

A Message from the Lords, by Mr. Attorney and Dr. Eden; That the Lords desire the Committees, Yesterday about the Petition, may meet in the same Place, at Three Clock this Afternoon, if it may stand with the Conveniency of this House.

Resolved, accordingly: And so delivered to the same Messengers.

Supply.

Sir Ro. Phillippes: - The Point being now, by this Message, reduced short to this ; either to give presently, or else, that in respect of our Danger, he will adjourn us to some other Time. -

The Arguments for giving, Honour, Necessity, Safety. - Honourable Actions, grounded upon sound Counsels. Necessity the continual Argument of Supply in all Parliaments. The Counsels, which have put the King, and this great Action, into this Hazard, by Necessity, have (whosoever they be) to answer this. - 10o R. II... H. IV. 28o H. VI. - Act of Resumption passed Ten or Twelve Kings Reigns together. - Fraunce, Spayne. - Impositions, 80,000l. per Annum - Tonage and Poundage 160,000 l. per Annum.

Moveth, the present Necessity may be supplied by some other Means, rather than so dangerous a Precedent to be brought in. Moveth, Sir Ro. Mansell may deliver his Opinion of the Designs in hand ; and a Committee, to consider of a fit Answer to his Majesty, why we cannot now give; and yet to give him Assurance, we will, in due Time, supply all his honourable and well-grounded Designs.

Relief of London.

Mr. Attorney-general and D. Eden bring another Message from the Lords; That the Lords have commanded them to return to this House, with this Addition; That the Lords desire, this House will give the same Committee Power to accept from the Lords some Propositions, for the Relief of London, and the Parts adjacent. - Resolved. And so delivered to the same Messengers.

Supply.

Sir Roger North: - Is now for giving; against which he was, but is now altered, by his Majesty's most gracious Answer to Religion. 2ly, That this the King's first Request. 3ly, The Consequence of an ill Parting, this Parliament ; which would be so acceptable to the Papists. - Is for Two Fifteens to the Two Subsidies.

Mr. Chancellor of the Duchy : - Nor to despise Precedents, nor to adore them as Gods. - First, Two Subsidies granted in King James' first Parliament, and Four Fifteens; within a Month after, One Subsidy more granted in the same Session. - Mors in olla. - If all Our greatest Enemies here, they would refuse to give. - To give now, because we cannot else give at another Time to supply.

Sir Francis Seymor: - That the Commons of England should be called hither for Supply of 40,000 l. sheweth the great Necessity of the King. - An Act of Resumption of the Crown Land: 140,000l. raised by Places of Honour : Places of Justice sold: Serjeants Places sold. - None of the Lords to use Arguments to the Commons, to give. For that proper, to the Lords.

Mr. Chancellor Exchequer: - To leave now our Fears, Jealousies, and Disgusts, at home, and to rely upon his Majesty's Promise for our Meeting to reform these Things. - The Disorders, complained of, not happened in the King's Time. - That our King now, both in his Father's Time, and his own, hath assured us of his Desire and Resolution to reform these. - Moveth the Question, whether we will give at this Time or not.

Sir Guy Palmes: - Fidem qui perdidit, perdere ultra nihil potest. - Moveth, a Committee to pen something, to satisfy his Majesty, that, at our next Meeting, we will supply him, to his Content.

Sir Geor. More: - Precedents have always changed with the Times. - To give: That the first Question : De modo, will speak after.

Sir Tho. Grantham: - Not now to give; but thus far to engage ourselves, that, at our next Meeting in Winter, we will respect his Majesty's Occasions, as shall be fitting for dutiful and loving Subjects.

Mr. Drake: - The Time too late for going out of the Fleet. - Danger of Enemies, foreign, domestical; Infection at home; Fear of a Famine. - Is for giving, so it be in a parliamentary Manner.

Sir Ro. Pye, - for giving - Mr. Mallory, contra; in respect of the Precedent. - Mr. Ch. Price is for giving.

Sir Tho. Wentworth: - The Engagement of a former Parliament bindeth not this. - Feareth, the Pressing of this Precedent, for so small a Sum, is to take Advantage of it for greater hereafter. Is against present giving, yet most ready and willing to give in due Time.

Mr. Recorder: - Granting of Subsidies in Reversion, as the Clergy have done, is to bind, and give for, our Executors, as they have done for their Successors. - Disliketh our drawing hither; and wisheth we may never hereafter be put upon these Rocks. -

Is for giving now in respect of the King's Answer to Religion; the rather, because he hath promised Execution; and, because he said, he did it not to draw us on. - Yet to do this with a great Caution, to be entered in the House.

Mr. Rolls, contra. - That his Majesty cannot but have Credit, without our Grant, for 40,000 l. - If the Necessity for Money now so great, this our Time to press for Redress our Grievances - Turkish Pirates take our Ships, and Men : Endanger our Coasts; for Defence whereof, they now driven to arm.

Sir H. Mildmay: - That a Navy appointed, to secure our Coasts at home, as soon as this great Fleet gone. -

Not only the Pressing of 40,000l. the Cause of our drawing hither, but the Giving Answer to our Petition for Religion. - To give now, with a Protestation, never to do the like, upon any Necessity hereafter.

Sir W. Tichborne: - To resolve to give: And to go to the Question.

Sir Ro. Crane: - To give now.

Mr. Glanvyle: - To be wary of putting this to the Question. - Doubteth this giving now, so pressed. - The Money, now desired, not worthy of a Parliament. - Moveth, a Committee, to consider of a satisfactory Answer to his Majesty; with some Protestation (without Engagement) that we will, in due Time, supply.

Sir Wm. Spencer: - It hath been said, bis dat, qui cito dat. - If we give quickly, we may be called again to give so again. - To let the 360,000 l. in the Treasurers Hands, be paid towards the Setting out of the Navy.

Sir Edw. Coke: - Two Leaks to drown any Ship: l. A bottomless Sieve: 2. Solum et malum consilium. - An Officer should not be cupidus aliaenae rei: Parcus suae avarus reipublicae: 4. Super omnia expertus - Misera servitus est, ubi lex incerta, aut incognita. - 15 H. III. Hubert de Burgo, Chief Justice, advised the King, Magna Charta was not to hold, because the King under Age at the Time of Act. - Created Earl of Kent 13 H. III. - disgraded for this 15o H. III.

18 H. III. Rot. Pat. n. 19. Segrave, Chief Justice, sentenced, for sole giving Counsel to the King, against the Commonwealth.- - Malum consilium, to press more Subsidies, when we have given Two. - To bring us hither for 40,000 l. - Offereth to give rather out of his own Estate 1,000l. than to give any Subsidy now.

Sir Tho. Hobby desireth to be satisfied, what more Reason to press an Enlargement of Two Subsidies now, than the 10th of July - Not now to give.

Sir Ro. Mansell: - Is now against putting this to Question, because would have One negative Voice.

Mr. Wandesford: - A Committee of the whole House to take Consideration of all the Business propounded in general.

Sir Tho. Puckering - That this Committee may hold itself to the Point of the King's Message.

Resolved, A Committee of the whole House, at Eight of the Clock To-morrow Morning, to consider what Return to make to his Majesty's Message delivered this Day.