House of Commons Journal Volume 10: 19 August 1689

Page 268

Journal of the House of Commons: Volume 10, 1688-1693. Originally published by His Majesty's Stationery Office, London, 1802.

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Page 268

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Lunæ, 19 die Augusti; Primo Gulielmi et Mariæ.


Recovery of Tythes.

A MESSAGE from the Lords, by Sir John Franklin and Sir Rob. Legard;

Mr. Speaker, The Lords have commanded us to acquaint this House, That they have agreed to the Bill for the more speedy and easy Recovery of small Tythes; with some Amendments: To which Amendments they desire the Concurrence of this House.

And then the Messengers withdrew.

The Amendments were read the First time through; and are as follow;

In the Title, after "Tythes," add "and for the Repairs of Churches."

1 Skin, Line 23, after "then," add "it shall be lawful for."

Line 24, for "shall or may," read "to."

2 Skin, Line 11, after "with-held," add "together with such Costs and Charges."

Line 29, for "retain to themselves," read "pay to the Party grieved."

Line 31, instead of "together with," read "retaining to themselves."

Line 33, for "rendering," read "shall render."

4 Skin, 28 Line, leave out "Prescription."

5 Skin, 16 Line, after "Judgment," add "or against whom any Judgment shall be obtained."

18 *, for "shall," read "may."

6 Skin, Line 5, after "Inhabitants," add "at any Parish Meeting, whereof Notice hath been given at Church on the Sunday before."

Line 6, Leave out "at any Parish Meeting."

Line 21, after "Disbursements," add "chargeable by virtue of this Act."

Line 26, after "same," add the Proviso marked (A);

"Provided, that nothing in this Act shall extend to take away, or diminish, the Power or Jurisdiction of the Bishops, Archdeacons, and their Ordinaries: But that, in their Visitations, they may proceed in all Matters of Church Repairs and Dilapidations, as they might have done before the passing this Act."

7 Skin, Line 21, leave out from "aforesaid," to the End of the Bill.

Resolved, That they be read a Second time presently.

The first Thirteen of the Amendments were read, one by one, a Second time; and agreed unto by the House.

Proviso (A) was read a Second time:

And the Question being put, That the House do agree thereunto;

It passed in the Negative.

The last of the said Amendments being read a Second time;

And the Question being put, That the House do agree to the said Amendment;

It passed in the Negative.

Resolved, That a Committee be appointed to prepare Reasons, to be offered at a Conference with the Lords, why this House doth not agree to the said Amendments.

And it is referred to Sir Tho. Littleton, Mr. Bickerstaffe, Mr. Hawles, Sir John Brownlow, Mr. Sacheverell, Mr. Attorney General, Mr. Arnold, Sir John Mathews, Sir John Trevor, Sir Edw. Hussey, Sir Hen. Goodrick, Mr. Paul Foley, Mr. Ettericke, Mr. Solicitor General, Mr. Gwyn: And they are to withdraw into the Speaker's Chamber; and prepare the said Reasons.

Mr. Hawles reports from the said Committee, That they had prepared Reasons accordingly: Which he read in his Place; and afterwards, delivered the same in at the Clerk's Table: Where the same were read; and, upon the Question put thereupon, agreed unto by the House: And are as followeth; viz.

Reasons to be offered at a Conference, for disagreeing with the Lords in the Amendment in a Clause marked (A), to the Bill for the more speedy and easy Recovery of small Tythes;

1st. It is conceived, that the said Proviso is needless, for saving the Jurisdiction of the Spiritual Courts, as to the Matter of the Repairs of Churches; there being no Words in the Bill, which takes away the Jurisdiction of those Courts in that Matter, although another Remedy is given, by the Bill, for such repairs.

2. It is conceived, the said Proviso is needless, for saving the Jurisdiction of those Courts in the Matter of Dilapidations, for the Reason aforesaid; and also, because nothing in the Bill meddles with Dilapidations.

3. It is conceived, that the leaving out the last Clause in the Bill is contradictory to the Design of the Bill; which was to give a quicker and less chargeable Way of recovering small Tythes and Oblations; and to disable those, who would be litigious, from putting Persons to extravagant Charges in recovering such Tythes; and, for that the leaving out the said Clause makes the Subject liable to a double Jurisdiction for the same thing.

The Question being put, That a Message be now sent to the Lords, to desire a Conference upon the said Amendments;

The House divided.

The Yeas go forth.

Tellers for the Yeas, Mr. Done, 33.
Mr. Gwyn,
Tellers for the Noes, Lord Wm. Pawlett, 46.
Mr. Arnold,

So it passed in the Negative.

And then the House adjourned till To-morrow Morning, Nine a Clock.