Journal of the House of Commons: Volume 10, 1688-1693. Originally published by His Majesty's Stationery Office, London, 1802.
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Sabbati, 20 die Decembris; 2° Gulielmi et Mariæ.
THE House took into Consideration the Amendments made by the Lords to the Bill, intituled, An Act for the settling a Charity given by Robert Aske, Esquire, deceased, to the Company of Haberdashers of London. And the same being once read throughout, are as followeth; viz.
Privilege-Abuse of Witness for giving Evidence.
A Petition of John Mallett, Esquire, a Prisoner in the Common Side of the King's Bench Prison, was read; setting forth, That, for his being examined before the Committee appointed to inquire into the Complaints of the said Prison, . . was, on Monday last, by the Order of Mr. Farrington and Briggs, dragged out of the Master's Side; and, after several Oaths, sworn by Mr. Briggs, against this House, he was thrown into the common Ward; so dark and damp a Hole, that his Life, if not suddenly retrieved, is in Danger: And praying the Relief of the House in the Premises.
Ordered, That the Examination and Consideration of the said Petition be referred to the Committee to whom a Petition of several Prisoners in the said Prison was formerly referred: And they to report the Matter, with their Opinions thereupon to the House, upon Monday Morning next: And that the said Farrington, Briggs, and Mallet, be brought to the said Committee.
Mr. Brewer reports from the Committee to whom the Bill for Relief of poor Prisoners, was committed, That they had agreed upon several Amendments to be made thereunto; which they had directed him to report to the House: And which he read in his Place, with the Coherence; and afterwards, delivered in at the Clerk's Table: Where the same were once read throughout; and then a Second time, one by one; and all of them, but one, upon the Question severally put thereupon, agreed unto by the House.
A Clause was offered to be made Part of the Bill, That the Bill do not extend to the King's Debtors, nor to any Person in Prison for above One hundred Pounds: Which was twice read; and, upon the Question put thereupon, greed unto by the House.
Supply Bill; Wine Duties, &c.
Mr. Speaker, The Lords have agreed to the Bill, sent up from this House, intituled, An Act for the Continuance of several former Acts therein mentioned, for the laying several Duties upon Wines, Vinegar, and Tobacco, without any Amendments: And also to the Bill, intituled, An Act to enable Thomas Sheafe to sell Lands, for Payment of Debts; and making Provision for his Wife, according to an Agreement for that Purpose.
The House being informed, That the Matter touching the Breach of Privilege against Sir Carbury Price, formerly complained of, was composed; and that Sir Carbury Price was willing, that John Price, Thomas Lewis, John Knowles, and Rice Vaughan, Gentleman, in Custody of the Serjeant at Arms attending this House, for such Breach of Privilege, should be discharged out of Custody, without being brought to the Bar of this House;
Act of Navigation respecting English Seamen.
Sir Matthew Andrews reports from the Committee to whom the Bill for suspending during the War with France, that Part of the Act of Navigation which obliges English Ships to sail with English Seamen, . . ., That they had agreed upon the Clauses, which were recommitted to the said Committee: And he read the same in his Place; and afterwards delivered the same in at the Clerk's Table: Where the same were twice read; and, with some Amendments proposed and agreed to, upon the Question put thereupon, were agreed unto by the House.
Royal Assent to Bills.
An Act for granting to their Majesties certain Impositions upon all East India Goods and Manufactures, and upon all Wrought Silks, and several other Goods and Merchandize, to be imported after the Twenty-fifth Day of December 1690.
An Act for paving and cleansing the Streets in the Cities of London and Westminster, and Suburbs and Liberties thereof, and Out Parishes in the County of Middlesex, and in the Borough of Southwarke, and other Places in the Weekly Bills of Mortality in the County of Surrey, and for regulating the Markets therein-mentioned.
An Act for the better enabling Jane Bray, Widow, the Relict and sole Executrix of the last Will of Reginald Bray, Esquire, deceased, and others, to the speedier raising the Portions already appointed for her Daughters, by the said Reginald Bray.
The King's Speech.
I MUST repeat to you, upon this Occasion, how sensible I am of your good Affections to Me, and of your sincere Endeavours to promote the true Interest of your Country in continuing to provide further Supplies towards defraying the Charges of the War: And as I am very secure, that you will not fail, on your Part, to do all that shall be necessary, in order to that End; so I assure you, I shall not be wanting, on Mine, to see that there be a diligent and a strict Application of the Supplies you give Me, to these Uses only, for which you intend them.
I have lately told you, That the Posture of Affairs Abroad would not admit of deferring my Journey to the Hague much beyond this Time; and I put you in mind of it again now, in hopes That Consideration will prevail with you, to use all possible Dispatch in what still remains to be done, for the more vigorous Prosecution of the War.
I must not conclude without mentioning to you, Gentlemen of the House of Commons, That, if some annual Provision could be made for the Augmenting of the Navy, and Building of some new Ships of War, it would be a very necessary Care, at this Time, both for the Honour and Safety of the Nation.
Supply Bill; Low Wines.
Resolved, That this House will, upon Tuesday Morning next, at Ten a Clock, resolve itself into a Committee of the whole House, to consider of the Bill for laying several Duties upon Low Wines, or Spirits of the first Extraction.
Navy and Army, Estimates, &c.
Then the House proceeded upon the Report formerly made from the Committee to whom the Consideration of the Estimates and Accounts relating to the Army, Navy, and Treasury, were referred, concerning the Army.
And Mr. Foley reported further, from the said Committee, That they had considered of the Earl of Ranelagh's and Mr. Foxe's Answers, delivered in to the Observations of the said Committee upon their Accompts; and had prepared Replies thereunto: Which he read in his Place; and afterwards, delivered in at the Clerk's Table: Where the said several Answers and Replies were read; and are as followeth; viz.
The particular Payments which make up the Sum of Sixteen thousand Four hundred Fifty-one Pounds Five Shillings and One Peny Three Farthings, charged by the Earl of Ranelaugh, as paid to the Garisons, in the Abstract of his Receipts and Payments from the Fifth of November 1688, to the Twenty-ninth of September 1690; delivered to the House of Commons the Eighth of November 1690.
A particular Accompt to whom the Sum of Twentythree thousand Four hundred Seventy-three Pounds Thirteen Shillings and Eleven-pence was paid, which the Earl of Ranelagh hath charged to Accompt of Contingencies, in his Abstract of Receipts and Payments delivered to the House of Commons the Eighth of November 1690.
1st. The Report of the Committee stated the Poundage according to the Earl of Ranelagh's Receipts; because they found nothing in his Payments but what might be included within the Warrant for the Deduction thereof, unless the contrary had appeared to them; which did not: Yet the Committee queried, Whether any of the Sums were to be paid without that Deduction; and now leave it to the House to be satisfied therein.
The Payment of the Dutch Forces comes per Annum to above Four hundred thousand Pounds; and the Committee were not informed of any Reason to differ them from the English in this Point of Poundage: If his Majesty's Pleasure therefore appear to the House, as the Lord Ranelagh asserts in his Answer, the Committee submits the same to the House.
The Committee thinks fit to observe, that the Warrant produced by Mr. Harbord, by virtue of which he charged himself with above Twelve thousand Pounds, deducted for Poundage, doth not direct him, How to distribute the same, either for Payment of Exchequer Fees, Chelsea College, or by Direction from the Treasury: And if the Earl of Ranelagh had made appear to the Committee any such Warrant, they would have considered thereof: But though it is Fourteen Days since the Committee delivered in their Accompt to this House, in which they excepted that the Lord Ranelagh had not allowed the Poundage, and much longer since the Committee resolved the Poundage ought to be deducted: yet the Lord Ranelagh hath not thought fit to produce to the Committee any of those Warrants he mentions in his Answer, by which he is directed to pay any Regiments, without deducting the Poundage, or to distribute the Poundage to any other Uses than to pay the Army.
Navy and Army Accompts.
The Committee must submit to the House the Accompt of the Distribution of Poundage, as it is given in by the Earl of Ranelagh, nothing being before them by which they can examine the same, or receive any Satisfaction from it; and the rather because the several Parts of his Answer do not agree well with one another: One Part concluding, that no Poundage ought to be deducted; another Part of his Answer concluding, that what remains, after other Uses satisfied, shall be applied to the Army; and another Part seeming to decline the giving any Answer to this House, by averring he is, in this Point, only accountable to his Majesty.
2. The Establishments of the Regiments differ: Therefore, without a particular Accompt of the Establishment for each Regiment, and of the Days and time from whence the Pay commenced and ended, it is utterly impossible for the Committee to examine the Accompts exactly.
3. It appears by the Earl of Ranelagh's Answer, That he hath paid Ten thousand Eight hundred Fifty-two Pounds Eight Shillings and One Peny to Forces that never were in his Majesty's Service, except the Scotch Regiment, for a short Time; and that Seven thousand One hundred Eighty-six Pounds Eleven Shillings and Elevenpence, is Part of the Arrears he makes due to the Army: Which last Sum he demands as an Arrear due to the Regiments disbanded before their Majesties Accession to the Crown; but produceth no Warrant for the same.
4. The Answer to the Fourth Observation is very obscure in this; That the Earl saith, That when he cleared, he paid all by Muster Roll: But when he had Warrant to the contrary, and so far as he had Rolls, the Committee thinks it requires no Answer: For it appears not to them, When he cleared any, or what Warrant or Muster Rolls he had or used: But they think it strange, that all the Respits should amount to no more than Five hundred Pounds; and suppose, upon Examination, it will appear otherwise, and also that much more is by him charged as paid to several Regiments, than the Establishment within the time of his Accompt comes to, amounting in the whole to a very great Sum: Which Charge the Committee is ready to prove, whensoever this House shall order the same.
5. and 6. The Answer to the Fifth and Sixth Observation doth consist in the Earl's producing new Accompts: To which the Committee can make no Reply, until they be examined and considered of; but they relate to Sums which were not brought or charged by the Committee to sink the Arrears: The Committee bring back these new Accompts to the House, that when they be read, the House may please to declare its Pleasure thereupon.
7. The Seventh Observation, relating to the Earl of Ranelagh, was designed by the Committee to know, What was in his Hand just before the Accompt be brought in of Receipts from the Exchequer; that so it might have appeared, Whether he had Money or no to pay the Forces that were disbanded before their Majesties Accession to the Crown, over and above the Monies that were received by him from the Exchequer, within the time of his Accompts delivered in to the House: To which he hath given no Answer; but that, Eleventh December 1688, the time of the late King's going away, he had then (as he saith) in his Hands very little; and what he had was included in the Receipts of his Accompts, and therein accounted for: But, without an Accompt appears for some time before the Fifth November 1688, it will not be possible justly to settle the Accompt now brought in, unless the Earl agree, that all the Money by him paid was due betwixt the Fifth of November 1688, and the First Day of October 1690.
The Committee, notwithstanding the Earl's Reply as to the Tin (wherein there was a Mistake in the Transcribing of Five thousand Pounds), are of Opinion, That the Produce of it should be applied to the Sinking of the Arrears of the Army, because it is charged by him as paid to the Army, and in Discharge of Part of the Money received by him out of the Exchequer.
The last Answer of the Earl of Ranelagh's, relating to the Dutch Forces, excepts against the Accompt from the Committee concerning the Dutch Arrears, because Thirty-one Thousand Seven hundred Twenty-three Pounds, owned to be paid them in Ireland since the First of June 1690, was not deducted out of the Arrears delivered in by the Earl of Ranelagh to the House: To which the Committee replies, That they have allowed the same in a greater Sum, being Forty-eight thousand Five-hundred Thirty-nine Pounds Seventeen Shillings and Three-pence Farthing in Mr. Foxe's Accompt; who paid the same; and therefore did put it in its proper Place to sink the Arrears.
The Answer of Charles Fox, Esquire, to the Report, Observations, &c. of the Committee of Accompts, so far as they relate to himself, and Thomas Coningsby, Esquire, the present Paymasters of the Army in Ireland.
First, The Committee in their Report say, That it appears by an Accompt made up by Mr. Fox, there was an Arrear of Six hundred Forty-eight thousand Sixty Pounds Fourteen Shillings and Eight-pence Farthing due to the Army under the Care of Mr. Harbord, Mr. Fox, and Mr. Cognisby, the First October 1690.
To which Mr. Fox answers, That there was a Paper by him delivered in to this House the Eighth of November last, intituled, A State of the Debt due to the Army in Ireland, from the First May 1689, to the First October 1690. By which it appeared, that the Sum of Four hundred Six thousand Three hundred Thirty-seven Pounds Nine Shillings and Eight-pence was due to the said Army before the First June 1690, till which time Mr. Harbord was Paymaster, who made up the said Accompt; and Mr. Fox was not at all concerned either in the Computing or Stating thereof: And that the further Sum of Two hundred Forty-one thousand Seven hundred Twenty-three Pounds Five Shillings and One Farthing was due to the said Army from the First of June aforesaid, when Mr. Fox and Mr. Cognisby entered on the Office of Paymaster, to the First October last; both which Sums of Four hundred Six thousand Three hundred Thirty-seven Pounds Nine Shillings and Eight-pence, and Two hundred Fortyone thousand Seven hundred Twenty-three Pounds Five Shillings and One Farthing, make together the beforementioned gross Sum of Six hundred Forty-eight thousand Sixty Pounds Fourteen Shillings Eight-pence and One Farthing: But he also affirms, That in the said Paper there are Memorandums of Fifty-two thousand Five hundred Pounds paid by Mr. Harbord, which reduced his Arrear of Four hundred Six thousand Three hundred Thirty-seven Pounds Nine Shillings and Eight-pence; Three hundred Fifty-three thousand Eight hundred Thirty-seven Pounds Nine Shillings and Eight-pence; and of Seventy-seven Thousand Nine hundred Thirtyeight Pounds Six Shillings and Sixpence Halfpeny, paid by Mr. Fox, which brought down his Arrear of Two hundred Forty-one thousand Seven hundred Twentythree Pounds Five Shillings and One Farthing to One hundred Sixty-three thousand Seven hundred Eighty-four Pounds Eighteen Shillings and Five-pence Three Farthings: Both which Sums of Three hundred Fifty-three thousand Eight hundred Thirty-seven Pounds Nine Shillings and Eight-pence, and One hundred Sixty-three thousand Seven hundred Eighty-four Pounds Eighteen Shillings and Five-pence Three Farthings, being added together, make the Total of the Arrear to the First of October aforesaid, as appears by the said Paper, to be Five hundred Seventeen thousand Six hundred Twentytwo Pounds Eight Shillings and One Peny Three Farthings; which he conceives ought particularly to have been taken Notice of in the said Report: But, since the Committee have thought fit to state the Accompts, in a different Method from the said Paper, Mr. Fox objects to the Sums brought by them in Abatement of the Arrear, so far only as concerns his Accompt; as follows; viz.
To the Sum of Three thousand Two hundred Pounds, Part of One hundred Twenty-nine thousand Five hundred Thirty-six Pounds Eighteen Shillings and Sevenpence Three Farthings, deducted out of the said Arrears, being Money paid to Monsieur Averquere for Recruit Horses;
To the Charge, in the said Report, of Twelve-pence in the Pound for the Sum of Two hundred Forty-three thousand One hundred Eighty-five Pounds Eight Shillings and One Peny Halfpenny received by Mr. Fox, and which amounts to Twelve thousand One hundred Fiftynine Pounds Five Shillings and Five-pence;
1st, That the Twelve-pence in the Pound is ordered to be deducted by his Majesty's Warrant inserted in the Establishment of Ireland, to be disposed of as his Majesty shall direct: And the Act of Parliament against Mutiny and Desertion, declares the said Twelve-pence in the Pound shall be disposed as his Majesty by his Warrant shall direct.
2dly. That a great Part of the Sums issued by the present Paymasters of Ireland hath been paid without any Deduction by his Majesty's particular Directions; and most of the Remainder being paid on Account, there could not be a Deduction thereout, because the said Poundage is never stopt but upon Clearings; and if, upon the said Clearings, any thing of the Poundage shall remain after a Deduction of the Exchequer Fees, and the Charge of the Office, his Majesty will dispose thereof by his Warrant; and therefore he conceives the said Poundage is not applicable to sink the said Arrear.
That he found all the Regiments, mentioned in the said Paper delivered in by him the Eighth of November last; established the First June 1690, when he entered on his Office, except that of Roscommon, Drogheda, Ingolsby, and Zanky; and since the said First June none have been disbanded.
To the 4th Article in the said Observations, he answers, That, from the said First June to the First October last, there has been no Muster taken of the Forces in Ireland; so that he was obliged to compute for that time according to the Establishment: But his Majesty having taken a Review of them after the Battle of the Boyne, when the said Arrear shall be cleared the Payments will be regulated according to the Numbers at the said Review.
To the 5th Observation, the said Paymaster answers, That he has paid but Two thousand Nine hundred Ninetyeight Pounds Twelve Shillings and One Halfpeny for Contingencies, the Particulars of which he hath annexed to this his Answer; but what Payments have been made on that Account by the other Paymasters, he knows not.
To the 6th Observation, he saith, That he has paid Thirteen thousand Pounds, as appears by his Accompts for Transports; but what Mr. Harbord has paid for that Use will appear by his Accompts, which Mr. Fox is not concerned in.
1. The First Article admits the Arrears to be stated by Mr. Fox himself, according to the Report of the Committee; but excepts against that Report, because the Committee did not take particular Notice of Two Memorandums in the Paper delivered in by Mr. Fox, by which he says, Fifty-two thousand Five hundred Pounds was paid by Mr. Harbord, and Seventy-seven thousand Nine hundred Thirty-eight Pounds Six Shillings and Sixpence Halfpeny, was paid by Mr. Fox, not included in the Accompt, which would sink the Arrear: But this Exception is only to the Method of the Accompt, which Mr. Fox admits to be true; and the Reason of the Committee's Method was, because they found that both Mr. Fox and Mr. Harbord had paid more than those Sums on the Account of the Army, besides what was stated in the Accompt brought in by Mr. Fox, and so have allowed in their Accompts at once in general all paid by them for Subsistence Money, in which these Sums are included.
2. Mr. Fox excepts against Three thousand Two hundred Pounds paid to Monsieur Overkirk for Recruit Horses, being, as he saith, in lieu of Recruit Money; and ought not to be applied to the Sinking of the Arrears.
This Matter was debated in the Committee: Who found, in all the Accompts, great Sums paid for Levy Money, and also very great Sums for Horses, amounting, in the Whole, to above Sixty-five thousand Pounds; and no Warrants pretended for the allowing this to the Army.
Upon Consideration whereof, and that the Accompt of the Irish Army then before them was made up according to Establishment, it was their Opinion, That so much of the said Sum ought to be charged to the Army as was laid out for Recruit Horses, leaving out the Carriage Horses: So that this Exception is only Mr. Fox his Opinion against that of the Committee's: Which is submitted to the House.
3. Mr. Fox conceives the Poundage is not applicable to sink the Arrears, because being by the Warrant for the Deductions thereof to be disposed of as his Majesty shall direct: He saith, A great Part of the same, issued by the present Paymasters for Ireland, hath been paid by his Majesty's particular Directions, without any Deduction; and the Remains cannot be stopped, but upon clearing; and then, after Deduction of the Exchequer Fees, and Charge of the Office, is to be at his Majesty's Disposal.
The Committee see the Warrant for the Deduction of Poundage from the Army in Ireland, which direct the same to be disposed, as his Majesty, by his Warrant, should direct; but neither Mr. Harbord nor Mr. Fox did produce any Warrant to pay any one Regiment, without the Deduction of Poundage; so nothing appeared to them, Why the Poundage should not be deducted; and it was all one, as the Committee conceived, if the same is to be deducted, whether the Money was in the Hand of Mr. Fox, or the Army; because so much less was due to the Army, as the Poundage came to: And his Majesty having ordered the Accompts to be brought before this House, and not directed by any Warrant to dispose of the Poundage, the Committee suppose his Majesty did not expect this House should supply his Majesty to pay the Arrear of the Army, when there appears Money which he might direct to pay such Arrears; and to say, that the Paymasters are accountable to the King, is not only to avoid giving Satisfaction to the House, but a Refusal to give that Account they are required to make by his Majesty.
The rest of Mr. Foxe's Paper needs no Reply to it: He owns, That he hath computed the Debt of the Army according to the Establishment: Which he excuses, because he saith, No Muster hath been taken since he entered upon the Office, to the Time of the Accompt.
Commissioners of Accompts.
Then the House, according to the Order of the Day,
resolved itself into a Committee of the whole House, to
consider of the Bill for appointing and enabling Commissioners to take the Publick Accompts.
Mr. Speaker left the Chair.
Sir Wm. Whitlock took the Chair of the Committee.
Mr. Speaker resumed the Chair.
Sir Wm. Whitlock reports from the said Committee, That they had gone through the Bill; and agreed upon several Amendments thereunto; which they had directed him to report to the House.