Journal of the House of Commons: Volume 10, 1688-1693. Originally published by His Majesty's Stationery Office, London, 1802.
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Jovis, 19 die Novembris; 3° Gulielmi et Mariæ.
A MESSAGE from the Lords, by Sir Miles Cooke and Dr. Edisbury;
Mr. Speaker, The Lords have passed a Bill, intituled, An Act for Sale of the Manor and Lands in Wittering in the County of Northampton, and the Advowson of the Church of Wittering aforesaid, late the Inheritance of Wm. Stydolph, Esquire, deceased, late Father of Sigismond Stydolph, Esquire: To which they desire the Concurrence of this House.
Lords desire a Conference.
Also, that the Lords desire a Conference with this House, this Morning at Eleven a Clock, in the Painted Chamber, upon the Subject Matter of the last Conference.
And then the Messengers withdrew.
Resolved, That this House doth agree to a Conference with the Lords, as their Lordships do desire.
And the Messengers were called in again; and acquainted therewith.
Resolved, That the Persons who managed the last Conference do manage this Conference.
Mr. Christie, according to Order, presented to the House a Bill for Registering of Servants that shall go to the Plantations, pursuant to Letters Patents granted for that Purpose. And the same was received.
The Bill was read the First time.
Resolved, That the Bill be read a Second time.
Conference on intercepted Papers.
Then the Managers appointed went up to the Conference: And being returned;
Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer reports, That the Managers appointed had attended the Lords at the Conference: And that the Duke of Bolton began the Conference; and said, That the Lords were willing to maintain a good Correspondence always between the Two Houses, especially in Matters of this great Importance; and should be glad to join with this House at any time in the Discovery of any Designs against the King and King dom, of which this House were the true Representatives; and were very well satisfied with the Respect of this House to them: And the Reason why they did not send to this Conference Yesterday was, because this House was up before they had received a full Account of the Matter to communicate: But that now the Lord Kiveton (formerly called the Lord Danby) had been there; and had given his Information: Which their Lordships gave to the Managers in Writing, viz. an Examination they called it: That their Lordships also delivered the Papers, which were taken by Sir Ralph Delavall; and the Letter from him to the Earl of Nottingham: That the Papers came to them sealed, as they now are delivered to the Managers: That they were sent up by Sir Ralph Delavall to the Earl of Nottingham: But that the Earl of Nottingham did not receive them from the Messengers; but appointed, that the Messengers should attend at the Door of the House of Lords: Who was afterwards brought by the Lords Direction into their House: Where he delivered the same: And that he was sworn that he delivered them as he received them.
That, in the said Examination of the Lord Danby, is mentioned Copies of Two Letters, one from Monsieur de Ginckle to Sir Ralph Delavall, the other from the Earl of Nottingham to Sir Ralph Delavall: But that when the Packet came to be opened, there could be found but one of those Papers; viz. the Copy of a Letter from Monsieur de Ginckle: But that the Lord Rochester said, That Sir Ralph Delavall's Letter to the Earl of Nottingham said, That he had sent all that he had taken.
That the Lords did desire, That when this House had made what Use they thought fit of those Papers, they would let them have them again: And that they said further, That they had sent for Four other Persons to be examined in this Business, which are not yet come; viz. one Martyn, Mr. Battyn, and the Captain of the Ship that was taken, and the Captain of the Ship that took them.
And then Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer delivered in at the Table the Packet sealed up, and Information of the Lord Kyveton, and Letter from Sir Ralph Delavall.
The said Information or Examination of the Lord Kiveton, dated 18 November 1691, was read; and is as followeth; viz.
18 Die Novembris 1691.
The Lord Kiveton saith, That he was in Company with a noble Peer of this House, and Two Members of the House of Commons: The noble Peer shewed his Lordship a Letter; the Postscript of which gave Intelligence, That Sir Ralph Delavall had taken a French Packet Boat bound for Ireland; in which there was found a Copy of Sir Ralph Delavall's Instructions: And his Lordship was asked by that noble Peer, and those Gentlemen of the House of Commons (amongst other Questions, about News) Whether the Postscript of that Letter was true: And his Lordship answered, That there was no such Thing as a Copy of any Instructions that his Lordship had seen; but that there was Copies of Two Letters, the Titles of which, one of them, was a true Copy of General Ginckle's Letter to Sir Ralph Delavall; and the other was titled, A Copy of the Lord Nottingham's Letter to Sir R. Delavall. His Lordship says, He had not Time to read any more than the Beginning of General Ginckle's Letter; which seemed to wish for Sir Ralph Delavall's expediting his Voyage to the Coast of Ireland. Sir Ralph Delavall told his Lordship, He wondered to see Copies of Letters, when the Originals never came to his Hands.
His Lordship further saith, That he asked the Commander of this small Vessel, Who was then on board Sir Ralph; Whither he was going, when he was taken: And he told him, He was going to the French Squadron, under the Command of Monsieur Chesteau Renaut. His Lordship asked him, From whence he came: He told him, From Brest: And also his Lordship asked him, Where he left Monsieur Chesteau Renaut: And he told him, to the best of his Lordship's Memory, He left him near the Coast of Ireland: And his Lordship also asked him, What Strength he had with him: And he said, He had Eighteen Sail of Men of War fit for the Line of Battle; and that Monsieur Chesteau Renaut himself was in a Three-decked Ship of Eighty odd Guns; and that none of those Eighteen Ships were of less Force than of Fifty Guns: That they had about Fifty Sail of Merchantmen with them, laden with Arms for Thirty thousand Men; and all manner of Ammunition and Stores for the same. His Lordship asked him, How he came to fall in with the English Fleet: He said, That he, not knowing that the English Fleet was at Sea, believed it might be their own Fleet drove so far to the Leeward of their Station; which he said was to have been West-south-west from Scilly Fifteen Leagues: That, when he saw his Error, he made the best of his Way from the English Fleet he could, but was taken by one of the English Cruisers.
His Lordship says, He had this Discourse, and much more of little Importance, which he doth not well remember, with this Commander, before he had seen the Copies of those Letters.
His Lordship further says, That he heard Sir Ralph Delavall, and some of the other Officers then on board, say, That this Man had owned he had a Packet which he had thrown overboard, when he found he could not escape; saying, That they could not blame him for it, it being his Duty, and what he believed any of them would have done for the Service of their Prince; and that these Papers were not so ready, being Papers, as he thought, of less Consequence. He told his Lordship, That Monsieur Chesteau Renaut his going out was designed for the Relief of Lymerick. His Lordship says, That the aforesaid Papers were taken out of a Vellum Case, in which there was several other Papers: And that Sir Ralph Delavall did say to his Lordship, That he did not know, but that they might be Papers of Consequence.
The Letter from Sir Ralph Delavall to the Earl of Nottingham, dated November 16, 1691, was read; and is as followeth; viz.
I Received yours, dated the Fourteenth instant 91; and, according to your Desire, have sent you every Paper that came to me by Captain Gillam, who took the Prize: If I had believed them of any Moment, I should not failed of transmitting them to your Lordship by the first Opportunity; nor can I apprehend how these Reports should arise. It is true, at That Time Captain Gillam brought the French Captain on board with these only Papers, my Lord Danby and several Commanders were on board: My Lord read them, as understanding French, which I do not; and so did several others, but could not believe there was any thing in them that should give Ground for such Report: Yet, when I consider, how much I find I am traduced for not doing an Impossibility, or rather not obeying an Order I never received, I do not wonder. I wish the Opinion of the Dutch Flags, as also of the Captains that are Seamen with me on this last Cruize, were asked, Whether I have acted according to Reason, and like a Seamen: And shall presume to say, That, if I were now to go on the same Service, I would not run such Hazards as I did. But I must submit; and rest
Your Lordship's most obedient Servant,
16 Nov. 91.
To the Right honourable the Earl of Nottingham Principal Secretary of State, London.
And the Packet was opened: Wherein was included Eighteen Papers numbered, inclosed in a Piece of Vellum.
Resolved, That the Perusal, Examination, and Translation of the said Papers and Vellum Cover, be referred to a Committee: And that they do report their Opinions therein to the House.
And it is referred to Mr. Bridges, Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Hutchinson, Lord Marquis Winchester, Lord Brandon, Sir Jos. Williamson, Sir Cha. Rashleigh, Mr. Mountague, Sir Rob. Clayton, Sir Jos. Tredenham, Mr. Paul Foley, Sir Christopher Musgrave, Colonel Granville, Mr. Dolben, Sir Rob. Davers, Serjeant Trenchard, Sir Rob. Rich, Earl of Bellamont, Mr. England, Mr. Clarke, Sir Jervas Elwes, Mr. Gott, Sir Rob. Cotton, Sir John Guise, Lord Digby, Mr. Wharton, Sir Tho. Dyke, Sir Edward Hussey, Mr. Gwyn, Mr. Price, Sir Cha. Windham, Lord Castleton, Sir Thom. Mompesson, Mr. Traverse, Sir Ralph Carre, Mr. Buscawen, Sir Tho. Clargis, Mr. Fuller, Lord Norreis, Mr. England, Mr. Burrard, Mr. Fawkes, Mr. Bedding feild, Sir Cha. Sidley, Mr. Niccolas, Mr. Fox, Sir John Wynn, Mr. Tredenham, Lord Pawlet, Sir Rob. Cotton, Mr. Norreys, Sir Sam. Bernardiston, Mr. Bathurst, Sir John Cotton: And they are to meet on Friday next, at Four of the Clock in the Afternoon, in the Speaker's Chamber: And are impowered to send for Persons, Papers, and Records.
Oath of Supremacy in Ireland.
A Message from the Lords by Mr. Justice Gregory and Mr. Justice Eyres;
Mr. Speaker, The Lords have agreed to a Bill, sent up from this House, intituled, An Act for the abrogating the Oath of Supremacy in Ireland, and appointing other Oaths; with several Amendments: To which they desire the Concurrence of this House.
And then the Messengers withdrew.
Then the Order of the Day, for the House to resolve into a Committee of the whole House, to consider further of the Supply to be granted to their Majesties, in relation to the Land Forces, was read.
The Lord Ranelagh acquainted the House, That he was commanded by his Majesty to lay before the House a Distribution of the Land Forces mentioned in the Estimate, formerly delivered in to this House: The which he read in his Place; and afterwards, delivered in, in Writing, at the Clerk's Table: Where the same was read; and is as followeth; viz.
Of which, One thousand Four hundred and Forty Horse, One thousand Eight hundred Dragoons, and Twentythree thousand Six hundred and Thirty Foot: And so remains to be transported beyond Seas Six thousand Six hundred and Thirty Horse, One thousand Six hundred and forty Dragoons, and Twenty-nine thousand Seven hundred and Eighty Foot: In all, Thirty-eight thousand and Fifty Men.
Resolved, That the Consideration thereof be referred to the Committee of the whole House; who are to consider further of the Supplies to be granted to their Majesties, in relation to the Land Forces.
Then the House, according to the said Order of the
Day, resolved itself into a Committee of the whole House,
to consider further of the Supplies to be granted to their
Majesties, in relation to the Land Forces.
Mr. Speaker left the Chair.
Mr. Solicitor General took the Chair of the Committee.
Mr. Speaker resumed the Chair.
Mr. Solicitor General reports from the said Committee, That they had agreed upon a Resolution; which they had directed him to report to the House: The which he read in his Place; and afterwards delivered in at the Clerk's Table: Where the same was read; and is as followeth;
Resolved, That it is the Opinion of this Committee, That an Army of Sixty-four thousand Nine hundred Twenty-four Men is necessary for the Service of the Year 1692, in order to the securing the Peace of the Kingdom, and the carrying on a vigorous War against France.
The said Resolution being read a Second Time;
Resolved, That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution, That an Army of Sixtyfour thousand Nine hundred Twenty-four Men is necessary for the Service of the Year 1692, in order to the securing the Peace of the Kingdom, and the carrying on a vigorous War against France.
Mr. Solicitor General also acquainted the House, That he was directed to move the House, That the Committee may have Leave to sit again.
Resolved, That this House will, upon Monday Morning next, at Ten a Clock, resolve itself into a Committee of the whole House, to consider further of the Supply to be granted to their Majesties, in relation to the Land Forces.
Ordered, That all Committees be adjourned
And then the House adjourned till To-morrow Morning, Nine of the Clock.