Journal of the House of Commons: Volume 10, 1688-1693. Originally published by His Majesty's Stationery Office, London, 1802.
This free content was digitised by double rekeying. All rights reserved.
Martis, 29 die Decembris; 3° Gulielmi et Mariæ.
A PETITION of Wm. Molineux, Gentleman, was read; setting forth, That, by a Decree in Chancery, so much of the Lands that were in Possession of the Petitioner's Brother Hugh Molineux, should be sold, as would raise Two thousand Pounds for Payment of the Portions of the Petitioner's Brother and Six Sisters, with Interest at a Day since past: But that his said Brother being dead, and the Lands come to the Petitioner, who is willing to perform the Decree (the which he cannot do without Sale of some Part of his Lands), and praying that Leave may be given to bring in a Bill for the Purposes aforesaid.
And it is referred unto Mr. Harcourt, Mr. Burdet, Mr. Preston, Mr. England, Mr. Christie, Mr. Waller, Mr. Bickerstaffe, Sir Rob. Edon, Sir Rich. Temple, Mr. Hedger, Sir John Manwaring, or any Five of them, and all the Members that serve for the Counties of Chester and Lancaster: and they are to meet this Afternoon at Four of the Clock in the Speaker's Chamber.
Albury, &c. Lands enfranchisement.
An ingrossed Bill from the Lords, intituled, An Act for enfranchising several Copyhold Lands and Tenements holden of the Manor of Albury and North Mims, in the County of Hertford, was read the Second time.
Resolved, That the Bill be committed to Sir John Jennings, Mr. Etterick, Mr. Blowfeild, Mr. Thornhaugh, Sir Jos. Tredenham, Sir Jervas Elwes, Mr. Bertye, Mr. Mountague, Mr. Osbourne, Sir Rob. Edon, Mr. Bickerstaffe, Sir Rich. Temple, Mr. Freeman, Mr. Christie, Mr. Freke, Mr. Fuller, Sir Wm. Cook, Sir Wm. Honywood, Sir Ralph Carr, Major Beke, Sir Bowch. Wray, Mr. Biddolph, Mr. Carter, Sir Wm. Cooper, Mr. Hedger, Sir Tho. Pope Blunt, Sir John Dorrell, Mr. Bertye, and all the Members that serve for the County of Hertford: And they are to meet this Afternoon, at Four a Clock, in the Speaker's Chamber.
A Bill to enable Antho. Eyre, Esquire, to sell Lands in the County of Chester, for the Payment of his Debts, and for the settling of Lands in the County of Lincolne, in lieu thereof, was read the Second time.
Resolved, That the Bill be committed to Sir Rob. Cotton, Mr. Waller, Sir Jos. Tredenham, Mr. Biddolph, Sir Rob. Davers, Mr. England. Sir Rob. Edon, Mr. Beke, Sir Wm. Yorke, Mr. Price, Sir Cha. Windham, Mr. Burdet, Sir Wm. Honeywood, Mr. Shackerly, Sir John Guise, Mr. Brewer, Sir Rob. Cotton, Mr. Tredenham, Sir Rob. Henley, Mr. Kynaston, Sir Hum. Forster, Mr. Weld, Sir Tho. Samuell, Mr. Cooke, Serjeant Trenchard, Serjeant Blincowe, and all the Members that serve for the Counties of Chester, Lancaster, and Lincolne: and they are to meet this Afternoon at Four of the Clock in the Speaker's Chamber.
Westminster Small Debts.
Ordered, That the Committee to whom the Bill for the Recovering of small Debts, and for Relieving of poor Debtors in Westminster, and the Liberties thereof, . . . . . be revived; and do sit To-morrow Morning at Eight of the Clock.
Mr. Serjeant Trenchard, reports from the Committee of Privileges and Elections, to whom the Matter touching the Election for the Borough of Lymington, in the County of Southampton, was referred, the Case, as it appeared to the Committee: The which he delivered in at the Clerk's Table, in Writing: Where the same was read; and is as followeth, viz.
The Committee having examined the Merits of that Election. And the Question was, Whether the Right of Election was in the Mayor and Burgesses, or in the Mayor, Burgesses, and Commonalty of Lymington: For if it was in the former, it was admitted, the Sitting Members were duly elected; if in the latter, the Petitioners were duly elected.
Christopher Cleeves, said, He had known Lymington Sixteen or Seventeen Years: And that, in his Time, the Mayor and Burgesses always elected; and particularly has known Mr. Burrard elected Four or Five times by them; and never knew the Commonalty elect.
It was also alledged for the Sitting Members, That in the Reign of the late King James the Second, a QuoWarranto was brought against the Corporation of Lymington: To which the Mayor and Burgesses pleaded, That they were a Corporation by Prescription: And thereupon the King's Counsel did not think fit to proceed any further in it.
And that, upon the whole Matter, the Committee came to several Resolutions: The which Mr. Serjeant Trenchard read in his Place; and afterwards delivered the same in at the Clerk's Table: Where the same were read; and are as followeth;
Resolved, That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution, That the Mayor and Burgesses of Lymington only have the Right to elect Burgesses to serve in Parliament for the Borough of Lymington.
Mr. Serjeant Trenchard also reports from the said Committee of Privileges and Elections, to whom the Matter touching the Election for the Borough of Banbury in the County of Oxon was referred, the Case, as it appeared to the Committee: The which he delivered in at the Clerk's Table, in Writing: Where the same was read; and is as followeth;
And that the sole Question was, concerning the Right of Election: For if the Right was in the Mayor, Aldermen, and Capital Burgesses, as they are called, Then the Sitting Member was duly elected; if in the Burgesses at large, John Hawles, Esquire, was duly elected.
The Charter takes Notice of the great Service the Inhabitants of Banbury had done Queen Mary against the Rebellion of the Duke of Northumberland; and grants, That the Town of Banbury shall be a free Borough; and incorporates them by the Name of The Bailiff, Aldermen, and Burgesses of the Borough and Parish of Banbury: And that they the Bailiff, Twelve Aldermen, and Twelve Burgesses, shall be one Body Corporate and Community: And provides, That, in case of the Death or Removal of an Alderman, one of the Capital Burgesses shall be chosen in his room: And that the Serjeant at Mace belonging to the Borough should be chosen by the Bailiff, Aldermen, and Capital Burgesses. And the Charter names the Bailiff, Twelve for Aldermen, and Twelve for Capital Burgesses: And, in several other Places of the Charter, there is Mention made of Capital Burgesses. Then afterwards, the Profits of the Markets and Fairs is granted to the Bailiff, Aldermen, and Burgesses: And the Privilege of sending One Burgess to Parliament is granted to the Bailiff, Aldermen, and Burgesses, and their Successors. So that the Word "Capital" being left out of the Grant of sending a Burgess to Parliament, made the Doubt upon the Charter, Whether this Borough should choose in their Corporate Capacity by the select Number, or by the Burgesses at large.
John Austin: Who produced an Indenture, with about Forty Names, purporting an Election of Mr. Hawles; and said, It was signed by the several Persons whose Names were thereto put: And that they had demanded of the Mayor to be polled; but were refused by him; saying, The Precept was directed to the Mayor, Aldermen, and Capital Burgesses.
Samuel Tateham, aged about Threescore and Fourteen Years: Who said, He was a Freeman; but had no Vote: That he remembred the Election of Nath. Fynes, Esquire, in the Reign of King Charles First: And that the Mayor, Aldermen, and Capital Burgesses only voted; and no other claimed a Vote: Neither did any other vote in the Election of Sir John Holman, Anno 1661; though since they have claimed a Right.
And that, upon the whole Matter, the Committee came to several Resolutions: The which Mr. Serjeant Trenchard read in his Place; and afterwards delivered in at the Clerk's Table: Where the same were read; and are as followeth; viz.
Resolved, That it is the Opinion of this Committee, That the Right of Election of a Burgess to serve in Parliament for the Borough of Banbury is in the Mayor, Aldermen, and Capital Burgesses of Banbury only.
Resolved, That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution, That the Right of Election of a Burgess to serve in Parliament for the Borough of Banbury is in the Mayor, Aldermen, and Capital Burgesses of Banbury only.
Resolved, That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution, That Sir Robert Dashwood, Knight and Baronet, is duly elected a Burgess to serve in this present Parliament for the Borough of Banbury.
Mr. Serjeant Trenchard also reports from the said Committee of Privileges and Elections, to whom the Matter touching the Election for the Borough of Calne in the County of Wilts was referred, the Case, as it appeared to the Committee: The which he delivered in at the Clerk's Table, in Writing: Where the same was read; and is as followeth;
Robert Dyer, Tho. Richards, William Jones, testified, That the Burgesses Inhabitants had only a Right to vote: That Hen. Foreman and Rich. Ryder, who were Burgesses, and afterwards went and lived out of Town, were refused their Votes at the Election, wherein Sir Edward Baynton stood, Anno 61; and testified, That Oliver Harman, one of the Voters for the Sitting Member, lived out of the Borough, about a Stone's Throw, at the Time of Election.
Alex. Orchard, a Bailiff, testified, That a little before the Election, he was spoken to by Rich. Seager, one that voted for the Sitting Member, to arrest Robert Dyer; and promised him, That if he would but stay and arrest also Blake, Langton, and Swaddon (which Four voted for the Petitioner), and secure them, that they might not have their Votes, he should have Four or Five Guineas: That Dyer was arrested (but got off before the Election Day) for a Debt wherein he stood bound with Seager, to one Parsons.
Goddard said, That he was spoken to by Colonel Chivers, to vote for Mr. Wyndham: And that Haskyns the Steward promised him to give him a Guinea out of his own Pocket, and procure him the Lady Bainton's Custom, if he would vote for Mr. Windham.
Thomas Fowler: Who delivered in a Poll; which, he said, he took by Order of the Steward: Which Poll agreed with the before-mentioned Poll produced by Walter Foreman; only John Goddard's Name, that was taken in the other Poll for the Petitioner, was omitted in This; and said, That Goddard and Swadden, Two of the Petitioner's Voters, were disfranchised; and produced the Town Book wherein their Disfranchisements were recorded.
There was also a Conviction of Forgery produced against Swaddon: And, as to Dyer, another of the Petitioner's Voters, Fowler said, That he was disfranchised; and he had seen it recorded in the Book; but that Dyer had got the Book into his Custody; and the Leaf was torn out.
That, upon the whole Matter, the Committee came to a Resolution: The which Mr. Serjeant Trenchard read in his Place; and afterwards, delivered in at the Clerk's Table: Where the same was read; and is as followeth; viz.
Resolved, That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution, That Wm. Windham, Esquire, is duly elected a Burgess to serve in this present Parliament for the Borough of Calne in the County of Wilts.
Lord desire a Conference.
Mr. Speaker, The Lords desire, a Conference with this House at One a Clock, in the Painted Chamber, upon the Subject Matter of the last Conference, touching the Amendments to the Bill for regulating of Tryals in Cases of Treason.
Call of the House.
Ordered, That the Call of the House be adjourned until This-day-sevennight: And that such Members of this House, as shall not then attend, be sent for in Custody of the Serjeant at Arms attending this House.
Privilege of a Member in a Suit.
A Petition of John Lord De La Warr was, according to Order, read; setting forth, That the late Lord Charles, the Petitioner's Father, Eleventh February 77, contracted a Debt of Ten thousand Pound unto Sir John Cutler, a Member of this House; for Security whereof, the Petitioner's Father mortgaged to him several Manors and Lands in Com. Southampton: and died about Christmas 87; when the Petitioner applied himself to Sir John to pay off the Mortgages: But Sir John, claiming a Debt of Thirty-five thousand Seven hundred Twenty Pounds, by virtue of a pretended stated Accompt of June 87, refused to discover the Items thereof: Whereupon the Petitioner brought a Bill against him, to be relived against the said Accompt as fraudulent, and to discover the real Debt; and that, on Payment thereof, he might have a Redemption of the mortgaged Estates: But Sir John, insisting on his Privilege for about Two Years, refused to answer the Bill: But he afterwards consented to wave his Privilege, the Cause came to be heard Twenty-seventh April last, before the Lords Commissioners of the Great Seal; who were satisfied that the said Accompt was erroneous in many Instances, particularly in one Item of Six thousand Three hundred Sixty six Pounds Principal: Whereupon it was decreed, That the Accompt of Thirtieth June 87, and all other Accompts since that of Ten thousand Pounds of Eleventh February 77, should be laid open; and that Sir John should make out what Money he hath since lent to or advanced for the Petitioner's said Father; and, on the Petitioner's paying what should appear due, Sir John was to re-convey the mortgaged Premises, prout Decree: And that, in pursuance of the said Decree, the Petitioner, Sir John Cutler, and their Agents, have attended the Master in Chancery, to whom the Matter is referred: And Sir John's Agents having obtained Time to bring in the Accompt, promised to do so on Twenty-fourth November last; when he was pleased, by a Note under his Hand, to give Notice to the said Master, and Petitioner's Counsel and Agents, that he insisted upon his Privilege as a Member of this House, notwithstanding he had before waved the same; whereby the Petitioner's Proceedings are stayed, to his great Prejudice, he having raised Money to pay Sir John what shall appear to be due unto him; the which he refusing to accept, the Petitioner and his Family are likely to continue under the Difficulties wherein they are now involved, unless Sir John may be by this House obliged not to resume his Privilege: The which he hopes the House will be rather inclined to do, in respect of Sir John's great Age, by whose Death the Petitioners Case will meet with much greater Difficulties: And praying the House would please to order the said Sir John Cutler to wave his Privilege, so that the Petitioner may be at Liberty to prosecute the Decree, in order to have the reality of the Debt ascertained; and that, upon Payment thereof, the Petitioner's Estate may be discharged from the same.
Then a Petition of Sir John Cutler concerning the same Matter, was read; setting forth, That Charles late Lord De la Warr being greatly indebted, applied to the Petitioner to supply him; who lent him Six thousand Five hundred Pounds: And some Mortgages of some Part of his Lordship's Estate . . . assigned to him, for Security thereof, with Interest at Six per Cent.; and for such other Money he should afterwards lend him.
Tenth February 77, That by the Six thousand Five hundred Pounds, and other Monies lent, the Debt was increased to Ten thousand Pounds; which was then acknowledged by his Lordship, by Writing under his Hand and Seal.
That his Lordship having obtained a Decree against one Mr. Huddleston for Ten thousand Pounds; but agreed to accept Six thousand Three hundred Sixty-six Pounds, which was secured by a Statute and Mortgage of the Equity of Redemption of his Estate in Com' York and Oxon, then in Mortgage to Sir Tho. Byde, and others, for Three thousand Pounds; to serve his Lordship, the Petitioner lent him Two thousand Pounds more; and took an Assignment of that Security for the same, Twelve March 80: And thereupon his Lordship agreed, the Six thousand Three hundred Sixty-six Pounds should be deducted out of his Debt; and his Lordship's Debt then adjusted at Eleven thousand Six hundred Fifty Pounds, and acknowledged to be due.
Twenty-seventh February 81, That the Petitioner haveing paid One thousand Pounds for his Lordship, to take off another Mortgage; with other Monies lent, and Interest, the Debt was increased to, and agreed to be, Sixteen-thousand Nine hundred Fifty Pounds.
That, as the Petitioner had not received any Interest since the Debt began, so he did not receive any for that Debt of Twenty thousand Seven hundred Twenty-one Pounds Fifteen Shillings, in Three Years.
And in July 1687, at his Lordship's Desire, the Petitioner lent him One thousand Five hundred Pounds more; and sunk the Interest to Five Pounds per Cent. Whereupon the Accompt being stated between them, there appeared, and was agreed to be due to the Petitioner Thirty-five thousand Seven hundred and Twenty Pounds: And his Lordship gave a new Statute to the Petitioner of Twenty thousand Pounds for a further Security; and it was agreed his Lordship should have Three Years time to pay it in: And the Petitioner was to accept of the Money at any time, on Six Months Notice.
That this Accompt, as well as all the former, was fairly adjusted and stated by his Lordship, and his Agents; and all the Writings drawn by his Lordship's Counsel, and no Objection made thereto during his Lordship's Lifetime; and the now Lord La Warre privy to almost all these Transactions: But that the Petitioner never refused to accept his Money; and if he did . . . ., to discover the Particulars, he conceives he might; the same being so adjusted, That the now Lord La Warr, after his Father's Death, exhibited his Bill, stuffed with the usual Pretences: But the same being upon the Revolution, the Petitioner did not answer for some time; but afterwards he did; and thereby set forth all the Accompts fairly stated, and insisted thereon, and submitted to accept his Thirtyfive thousand Seven hundred and Twenty Pounds, and Interest, and re-convey; as also that he had paid the Six thousand Six hundred Pounds, and Interest; and to Mrs. Huddleston, and Sir Wm. Cooper her Administrator, the Three thousand Pounds, which ought also to be paid him.
Twenty-seventh Apr. 91, That the Cause coming to be heard, some Matters were insisted on, which the Petitioner was not then apprised of; but which he, if permitted, can sufficiently answer. The Lords Commissioners did Order not only the last Accompts of June 87, but all the precedent Accompts, since February 1677, to be laid open; and referred it to a Master, to examine the Particulars thereof, and to state the Matter upon Byde's Mortgage; and that the Petitioner should make out what Money he had so lent and advanced since February 1677: Whereat the Petitioner, being aggrieved, as well for that the stated Accompts are set aside, as for that no Provision was made for his being satisfied the Three thousand Pounds paid to Mrs. Huddleston, and Administrator, and so, by Consequence, must lose it; that although the Petitioner, in due Time and Method, petitioned the said Commissioners for a Rehearing of the Cause, in August last; when he doubted not to have satisfied their Lordships in many Matters they were not before satisfied in; yet they refused to grant him the same; but permitted the Decree to be signed and inrolled: Whereupon the Petitioner, supposing a speedy Prosecution, was advised, and did sign a Writing, insisting upon his Privilege for his Agents to make use of, when any Proceeding should be upon the Decree.
That the Lord La Warr's Agents did not stir upon the Decree, till towards the End of last Michaelmas Term; when they took out a Warrant to attend the Master; and when the Master only ordered the Petitioner to bring in his Accompt and Charge, pursuant to the Decree, by the Twenty-fourth November: And the Petitioner did not wave his Privilege, but only by his voluntarily answering, and permitting a Proceeding to Hearing, as before. And the Petitioner being, by the Decree, like to be deprived of Ten thousand Pounds of the Debt; and, as a Member, in no Capacity of Redress, by Appeal; he hath thought fit to insist upon his Privilege: And, for that Purpose, his Agent, on the Twenty-fourth November, before any further Proceedings on the Decree, gave a Copy of the said Writing to the Lord La Warre's Agents. And praying, That the Premises may have the Consideration of the House; and humbly submits, whether the House will give him Leave (without which he cannot do it) to bring an Appeal in the House of Peers, against the said Decree.
Trials for Treason.
Mr. Mountague reported, That the Duke of Bollon managed the Conference for the Lords: And that the Lords observe, That in the Reason offered by the Commons for their disagreeing with them in the Clause marked A, in the Bill, intituled, An Act for the better regulating of Tryals, in Cases of Treason, they do not object against it as unreasonable in itself; but as it is of a different Nature from the Intent and Purport of the Bill.
The Lords look upon it to be quite otherwise; and cannot conceive how any thing should be thought foreign to the Bill, that doth so naturally agree with the Scope of it; which is, the Protection of all innocent Men, who shall, at any time hereafter, happen to be accused of any of the Crimes therein mentioned: The Ground of this Bill is, That every Man who shall be prosecuted for Treason, or Misprision of Treason, shall have a fair and equal Tryal for his Life. So that, in what respect, or by what Circumstance soever, as the Course of Proceedings now is, an innocent Man's Life, Estate, or Liberty, may be unduly exposed by his being prosecuted for the Crimes above expressed. It is very fit there should be a Remedy: And therefore, if the present Method of trying Peers giveth just Cause of Objection to it, in relation to the true and natural Meaning of this Bill, it is either to be shewed, That the Objection is of no Force; and that, in the present Method, there is no such Defect or Inconvenience; or, it must be acknowledged there ought to be a Remedy: And then it cannot be denied but that such a Remedy cometh properly in this Bill, since it agreeth both with the Title, and with the Intent of it.
The Lords are of Opinion, That the Interest of the People of England is, at least, equally concerned with That which they may be supposed to have in the passing this Clause. In their judicial Capacity it can never be thought convenient for those to whom they are to administer Justice, That the Lords, when they are to receive it, are to lie under greater Hardships and Disadvantages than others in Cases where their Lives are to be defended: And, as they have a Part in the Legislature, it seemeth yet to be less reasonable, that they should, in the Method of their Tryals, be so distinguished, as to be more exposed than the meanest Subject in the Kingdom.
The Lords conceive, that nothing is more conducive to preserve the whole Constitution, than a mutual Care of one another in all the Parts of it: It is That more especially which must cherish and promote the good Correspondence between the Two Houses, which is so indispensably necessary for the maintaining the Safety, Honour, and Greatness of the Nation. Of this they are so fully persuaded, that they will never fail to support and improve, to the utmost of their Power, the true Interests of the House of Commons; and therefore cannot doubt but that the House of Commons will be as ready to comply with the Lords in this, or any other Instances, where they shall be so well founded, as they take themselves to be, in the Matter now in Question.
A Petition of several Burgesses and Freemen of the Borough of Chippenham in the County of Wilis was read; setting forth, That Thomas Talmash, Esquire, was on the Fourteenth Dec. 1691, duly elected a Burgess there by the Majority of qualified Voters; notwithstanding which Sir Baz. Firebrass, after several undue Practices, hath procured a Return of himself by the Bailiff: And praying the Consideration and Examination of the House in the Premises.
Ordered, That it be referred to the Consideration of the Committee of Privileges and Elections: Who are to examine the Matter of the said Petition; and to report the same, with their Opinions therein, to the House.
Resolved, That this House will, To-morrow Morning at Ten a Clock, resolve itself into a Committee of the whole House, to consider further of the Supplies to be granted to their Majesties for the carrying on a vigorous War against France.
East India Company.
They were called in; and, at the Bar, they did deliver in a Paper of the Names of the Persons they proposed to be Security, and the Sums for which each Person would be Security: Many of which Persons attended also.
The Adventurers of the East India Company, in a General Court assembled, do humbly present to this honourable House the Persons hereunder named, being Adventurers, to be Security, according to the Sums annexed to their Names, That the Stock and Estate they now have shall be made good Seven hundred and Fortyfour thousand Pounds, all Debts paid.
And they do farther humbly propose to give Security for what Sum their Accompts given in to this honourable House make out more than the said Sum of Seven hundred Forty-four thousand Pounds, if required thereunto by this honourable House.