Journal of the House of Commons: Volume 10, 1688-1693. Originally published by His Majesty's Stationery Office, London, 1802.
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Sabbati, 13 die Februarii; 4° Gulielmi et Mariæ.
MR. Harcourt reports from the Committee to whom the ingrossed Bill from the Lords, intituled, An Act for settling the Manor and Lordship of King's Bromley, and other the Messuages, Lands, Tenements, and Hereditaments of Barbara Newton, Widow, Relict of Samuell Newton, late of the Island of Barbadoes, in America, Esquire, deceased, and John Newton, Esquire, Son and Heir of the said Samuell by the late Barbara, was committed, that they had considered the Bill; and had directed him to report the same to the House, without any Amendments: And he delivered the same in at the Table.
Cambridge University Charters.
Mr. Christy reports from the Committee to whom the ingrossed Bill from the Lords, intituled, An Act for confirming the Charters and Liberties of the University of Cambridge, and the Colleges and Halls therein, was committed, That they had considered the Bill; and had directed him to report the same to the House, without any Amendments: And he delivered the same in at the Table.
Then the House proceeded to take into Consideration the Amendments made by the Lords to the Bill, intituled, An Act for Naturalizing of Armand Nompar deCaumaunt, Marquis of Monpouillan: And the same, being read, are as followeth; viz.
In the Title, after "Caumaunt," add "commonly called; and, after "Monpouillon," add "and others."
1st Skin, 4 Line, after "Caumaunt," add "commonly called."
9 Line, after "Guinnee," insert "Godart Baron de Ginckle, Son of the Baron of Amerongen, born at Utrecht in the Province of Utrecht, and John James Nicholai, Son of John Christopher Nicholai, and Margarethea Elizabeth, his Wife, born at Dresden in the Electorate of Saxony."
Line 11, for "his," read "their."
21, after "Monpouillon," add "Godart Baron de Ginckle, and John James Nicholai."
24, for "he is," read "They are."
28, for "he" read "they."
32, after "Monpouillon," insert, Godart Baron de Ginckle, and John James Nicholai."
33, for "is," read "are."
40, for "his," read "their."
2 Skin, 1 Line, for "Resort or Pedigree, as Heir to his," read "several Resorts or Pedigrees, as Heirs to their respective."
6 Line, after "him," read "or them."
9, for "he," read "they."
15, for "he," read "they."
Line 16, after "Monpouillon," add "Goddart Baron de Ginckle, and John James Nicolai."
The said Amendments being severally read a Second time;
An Amendment was proposed to be made to the Bill, by adding the Name of "Lewis James de Vasseur" throughout.
And thereupon a Certificate was produced of his having received the Sacrament, according to the Usage of the Church of England; and Witnesses thereto were also produced, and examined, at the Bar, to the Truth thereof.
Whereupon, the Name of the said Lewis Jaques de Vasseur was agreed by the House to be added to the said Amendments made by the Lords.
And the Amendments made by the Lords were, with the said Amendments made by this House, agreed unto by the House: Which Amendments are as followeth; viz.
After "Saxony," add "Lewis Jaques le Vasseur Coyny, Son of George le Vasseur Coyny, commonly called Marquis of Thouars, and Anna his Wife, born at Thanars in the Province of Maiens in France."
After "Nicolai," add "and Lewes Jaques le Vasseur Coyney."
After "Nicolai," add "and Lewis Jaques le Vasseur Coyny."
Ordered, That * * * * do carry the Bill to the Lords; and acquaint them, That this House hath agreed to the Amendments made by their Lordships; with some other Amendments, to which they desire their Lordships Concurrence.
Bishop of London's Estate.
An ingrossed Bill from the Lords, intituled, An Act to enable the Bishop of London, and Trustees, to sell the Manor of Bushley in the County of Worcester, Part of the Bishoprick of London, and to purchase other Lands, to be annexed to the said Bishoprick, for the Improvement thereof, was read the Third time.
Resolved, That the Bill, with the Amendments, do pass; and the Title agreed.
Ordered, That Mr. Travers do carry the Bill to the Lords; and acquaint them, That this House hath agreed to the same, with some Amendments: To which they desire their Lordships Concurrence.
Lord Stanhope's Estate.
Then the Amendments, made by the Committee to whom the ingrossed Bill from the Lords, intituled, An Act for the enabling Philip Lord Stanhope, Son and Heir apparent of the Right honourable Philip Earl of Chesterfeild, together with the said Earl, to make a Jointure and Settlement, upon the Marriage of the said Philip Lord Stanhope, was committed, were read; and are as followeth; viz.
Press *, Line 9, leave out from "Body" to "with," in Line 12; and, instead thereof, insert Clause A; "As for, touching, or concerning all the same Manors, Lands, and Hereditaments, in the said Counties of Derby, Nottingham, Leicester, York, and Warwick, except those of or in Shelford, Newton, and Saxendale, in the said County of Nottingham, to the Use and Behoof of the Daughters of the said Philip Lord Stanhop, by such Woman as he shall first marry, and the Heirs of the Bodies of such Daughters; and, in Default of such Issue, to the Use and Behoof of the said Philip Earl of Chesterfeild, his Heirs and Assigns for ever: And as to the same Manors, Lands, and Hereditaments, so excepted as aforesaid, to the Use and Behoof of the said Philip Earl of Chesterfeild, his Heirs and Assigns for ever, to enable him to settle the said Manors, Lands, and Hereditaments, so excepted, so as to go along with the Honour of Earl of Chesterfeild; and in Default of his so settling the same, then the same to go as if they had not been excepted. Provided always, That if it shall happen, that the said Philip Lord Stanhope, and Charles Wootten, alias Stanhope, shall die without Issue Male of their or either of their Bodies, and the said Earl of Chesterfeild shall marry again, and leave Issue Male of his Body; then, and not otherwise, the said Use, to be limited to the Daughters of the said Philip Lord Stanhope, shall cease."
Line 43, leave out "Two;" and insert "Three."
And the same, being severally read a Second time, were, upon the Question severally put thereupon, agreed unto by the House.
Resolved, That the Bill do pass; and the Title agreed to.
Ordered, That Mr. Gwyn do carry the Bill to the Lords; and acquaint them, That this House hath agreed to the Bill, with the said Amendments; and desire their Lordships Concurrence to the said Amendments.
A Message from the Lords, by Sir Myles Cooke and Mr. Meredith;
Mr. Speaker, The Lords have agreed to the Bill, intituled, An Act for repairing and amending the Highways; and for settling the Rates of Carriage of Goods; with an Amendment: To which they desire the Concurrence of this House.
Also they have passed a Bill, intituled, An Act to impower the High Court of Chancery, and Court of Exchequer, to accept of the solemn Answer and Evidence of any of the People called Quakers: To which they desire the Concurrence of this House.
Settlement of the Poor.
Also they have agreed to the Bill, intituled, An Act for the better Explanation and supplying the Defects of the former Laws for the Settlement of the Poor, with some Amendments: To which Amendments they desire the Concurrence of this House.
Causes in Chancery.
Also the Lords put this House in mind of the Bill, intituled, An Act for the better Reviewing of Causes in Chancery, and other Courts of Equity.
And then the Messengers withdrew.
Then the Amendments, made by the Lords to the Bill, intituled, An Act for repairing and amending the Highways, and for settling the Rates of the Carriage of Goods, was read; and is as followeth; viz.
Press 2, Line 28, leave out "or otherwise:" Which was read a Second time; and, upon the Question put thereupon, agreed unto by the House.
Ordered, That Mr. Clarke do carry . . . . . to the Lords; and acquaint them, That this House hath agreed to the said Amendment.
A Bill for the Encouraging of Clothiers, and others dealing in Woolen Manufactures, and Suppressing of Wool Broggers, and Ingrossers of Wool, and Blackwell Hall Factors, was read the Second time.
Resolved, That the Bill be committed to Sir John Guise, Lord Cornebury, Sir John Knight, Mr. How, Mr.Gilbert, Mr. Biddulph, Sir Richard Hart, Sir Robert Henly, Sir John Wyn, Mr. Hawtry, Mr. Bockenham, Sir Wilfr. Lawson, Mr. Bear, Sir Samuell Barnardiston, Sir Tho. Darcy, Mr. Hunt, Mr. Cooke, Major Vincent, Mr. Smith, Sir Wm. Basset, Mr. Hutchinson, Mr. Bromley, Sir Tho. Vernon, Sir Jerv. Elwes, Mr. Sandford, Sir Math. Andrews, Mr. Palmer, Mr. Morris, Sir John Dorrell, Mr. Gwyn, Sir Samuell Dashwood, Mr. Bulkly, Mr. Fuller, Sir Jon. Jennings, Mr. Phillipps, Sir Tho. Key, Sir Jos. Tredenham, Mr. Clarke, Mr. Foley, Mr. Henly, Mr. Christy, Mr. Brewer, Sir Tho. Barnardiston, Mr. Hopkyns, Sir Peter Colliton, Mr. England, Mr. Dowdeswell: And they are to meet this Afternoon at Four a Clock, in the Speaker's Chamber.
Settlement of the Poor.
Then the Amendments, made by the Lords to the Bill, intituled, An Act for the better Explanation, and supplying the Defects of the former Laws for the Settlement of the Poor, were read: And are as followeth; viz.
At the End of the Bill add a Clause, "That, in Actions against Churchwardens, or Overseers of the Poor, for Monies mis-spent, the Parishioners shall be Evidence against the Defendants, except such as receive Alms, Pensions, or Gift, out of the publick Monies of the Parish: Which, being read a Second and Third time, was, upon the Question put thereupon, agreed unto by the House.
Ordered, That Mr. Hutchinson do carry the Bill to the Lords; and acquaint them, That this House hath agreed to the said Amendments.
Causes in Chancery.
Ordered, That the ingrossed Bill from the Lords, intituled, An Act for the better Reviewing of Causes in Chancery, and other Courts of Equity, be read the Second time upon Tuesday next, after Eleven a Clock.
Sir Robert Clayton reports from the Committee, to whom the Examination and Consideration of the Petition of the French Protestants was referred, That the Committee accordingly had heard several of the Petitioners, and their Allegations; and do find, That his late Majesty King Charles the Second, by his Order, or Declaration, in Council, dated the Twenty-eighth of July 1681, upon a Memorial presented to him in Behalf of the distressed Protestants abroad, was pleased to declare, That he held himself obliged, in Honour and Conscience, to comfort and support all such distressed Protestants, who, by reason of the Rigors and Severities, which were used towards them upon the Account of their Religion, should be forced to quit their native Country, and should desire to shelter themselves under his Royal Protection; and, for their Encouragement to come into this Kingdom, did thereby grant unto them several Liberties, Immunities, and Privileges, therein particularly mentioned.
That the Committee had also perused another Declaration, dated the Twenty-fifth Day of April 1689, made by their present Majesties; thereby taking notice, That it had pleased Almighty God to deliver this Realm of England, and the Subjects thereof, from the Oppression and Destruction, which the Subversion of their Laws, and the arbitrary Exercise of Power and Dominion over them, had very near introduced; and finding in their Subjects a true and just Sense thereof, and of the Miseries and Oppressions the French Protestants then lay under; for their Relief, and to encourage those that should be willing to transport themselves, their Families, and Estates, into this Kingdom, did thereby declare, That all French Protestants, that should seek their Refuge in, and transport themselves into this Kingdom, should not only have their Royal Protection for themselves, Families, and Estates, within this Realm; but would also do their Endeavours, in all reasonable Ways and Means, so to support, aid, and assist them in their several Trades, and Ways of Livelihood, as that their living and being in this Realm might be comfortable and easy to them.
That, pursuant to these Encouragements, great Numbers of these poor Protestants have resorted hither; many of which have had Relief by the Charities here collected; and have been transported some to the American Plantations, belonging to this Kingdom; some to other Places: And, by credible Information given the Committee, there are settled in this Kingdom upwards of Thirty thousand; some of which live, and are supported, by what they escaped with out of France; but the greatest Part of them by following the Callings they have been educated in, as the Making of Silks, Linens, Hats, Castile Soap, White Paper, and other useful Manufactures; by which they are become good Subjects to their Majesties, and this Nation reaps great Benefit by them.
But, upon Examination, the Committee find, That these Persons, that implore the Succour and Relief of this honourable House, are near Three thousand Persons; which are under these Qualifications; viz.
Two hundered and Seventy-eight Persons of the best Quality of both Sexes, born to fair Estates, and bred accordingly, without Trade or Profession, most of them sick or aged; whose little Stocks they brought with them being totally exhausted, are reduced to depend only, for their Livelihoods, upon the publick Charity.
Four hundred and Two Persons of middle Quality, as Lawyers, Physicians, Merchants, and Tradesmen of all Sorts, which by great Age, Infirmities, and Losses, and disabled to follow any Employment, and reduced as the former.
Ministers, without Churches, whose Education and Attendance on their Ministry renders them unfit for Labour; and their Wives and Children; amounting, together, to Three hundred and Seventy-seven Persons.
The Residue consists of Persons of the meaner Sort, as aged Persons, Widows, and little Orphans, many of which are sick, which occasions an Expence extraordinary; but, of the last Rank, none are relieved but such as are superannuated, sick, or Infants under the Age of Ten Years.
That many Casualties also attend this Charity, as Persons coming and going from Holland, Ireland, and other Places, wounded Soldiers, placing out Children Apprentices, &c.
And that, upon Consideration of the whole Matter, the Committee are of Opinion, That it will be a great Scandal to the Goverment, and our Religion, to suffer these poor People to come into our Streets to beg and perish for Want: Which they must inevitably do without the Assistance of this House; the Charity of welldisposed Persons being (in the Aid of these, and the poor Irish) so much exhausted, that none of the common Methods can be of any Value to them: And that this Nation may not be outdone by their Neighbours in so good a Work, it being manifest, That whatsoever shall be given to these poor People (besides the Blessing which attends it) the Nation will not be the poorer, for it must of Necessity be spent again here as soon as they have it; and that, without the Assistance of this honourable House, a regular Provision cannot be made for these poor People; and that therefore it was humbly proposed, such Course may be taken for their Relief and Succour, as may be, in some measure, suited to their Wants; and as to the Wisdom of this House shall be thought meet.
Ordered, That the Report from the Committee appointed to receive Proposals for raising Monies upon the forfeited Estates in Ireland, and for inquiring into the Disposal of forfeited Estates there, be made upon Monday Morning next, after the Report of the Bill for a Quarterly Poll is over.
Commissioners of Accompts.
Sir Joseph Tredenham, according to the Order of the Day, reports the Two last free Conferences with the Lords, as followeth; viz.
That the Conference was begun by the Managers for the Commons: Who acquainted their Lordships, That the Commons had desired this free Conference, to preserve that good Correspondence, which had hitherto continued between the Two Houses.
That they had solemnly and deliberately considered their Lordships Amendments to a Bill, from the Commons, intituled, An Act for appointing Commissioners to examine and state the publick Accompts of the Kingdom, and the Reasons which induced their Lordships to insist on those Amendments; but had not found them sufficient to convince them: And they still disagree with the Lords in those Amendments; and insist on that Disagreement.
That the particular Knowledge the Commons had of the Commissioners named in the Bill recommended them to their Nomination; and the Progress those Commissioners have already made in stating those Accompts, have justified the Commons good Opinion of their Abilities and Integrity.
That, to add new Commissioners, must, of Necessity, delay the perfecting this Work; and would hazard the rendering the Bill (which continues only for a Year) ineffectual: For the Commissioners, proposed in their Lordships Amendments, will find themselves, by their Oath, and to answer their Lordships Expectations, obliged to inform themselves, as well of what hath already undergone the Scrutiny of the present Commissioners, as in those Particulars, which shall hereafter become the Subject of their Inquiry: And that such Retrospect cannot be consistent with the Dispatch the Bill requires.
That, in Answer to their Lordships Argument derived from the Quality of the Commissioners named in the Bill, it was demanded, Whether their Lordships could have any Assurance, that the Commissioners they proposed, will not be elected in the Vacancy of this, nor in any succeeding Parliament, wherein these Accompts may be required. Should That happen, their Lordships Amendments would not be useful to attaining the End intended.
That the Commons could not determine, How far the Quality of the Commissioners, named in the Act of Accompts, made in 19 Car. IIdi, prevailed with their Lordships in agreeing thereto: There was, indeed, no Member of the Commons of That Committee which met at Brooke House with great Reputation: But how little they effected, how soon they were dissolved, and how the Fruits of their Labours became abortive, is fresh in Memory.
That, from thenceforth the Commons, with better Success, reposed Trusts of this Nature in their own Members. Of such were the Committee for disbanding the Army, constituted 31 Car. IIdi. Such are the Commissioners in the Act, whereunto this Bill relates. It might, with as good Logick, be argued, That their Lordships agreed to those last-recited Acts, because the Commissioners therein named were then Members of the House of Commons, as that their Lordships were induced to an Agreement with the Commons in the Nomination of the Commissioners of Brooke House, because they were not of the House of Commons. But from this Variety in the Precedents, it may be more reasonably inferred, That their Lordships have, from time to time, agreed to the Commissioners named by the Commons, without respect to their Quality, and because the Right of such Nomination is in the Commons only.
That the Measures, by which both Houses are to govern themselves, are derived either from Precedent or Reason: Their Lordships had not offered any Precedent in Justification of insisting on these Amendments. If there be any Force in the Argument their Lordships derive from the Clause in this Bill; which provides, That the Accompts shall be laid before the King, and both Houses of Parliament; it extends as well to vest a Right in their Majesties to nominate such Commissioners, as in their Lordships; for it equally relates to both.
That the Title and Design of the Bill is, to appoint Commissioners to examine, take, and state the publick Accompts of the Kingdom; which, during the Session of Parliament, is the proper Work of the House of Commons: And no Inference can be more natural, than that it is in the Commons only, to name Commissioners for the Exercise of that Authority which is an essential Part of their Constitution.
That they desired to know the End their Lordships would propose to themselves by such Inquiry: Should any Misapplication of Money, or Default of Distribution, appear in these Accompts, their Lordships cannot take Cognizance thereof originally, nor otherwise, even in their judicial Capacity, than at the Complaint of the Commons: Should a Failure or Want of Money appear, it is not in the Lords to redress it: For the Grant of all Aids is in the Commons only.
That such Inquiry can only be of Use to the Commons to direct their future Services: And herein the last Commission proved useful this Session; the Commons supplying the Defects of the Fund upon the Expenses in the Excise. If there be a Redundancy, the Commons only can apply it to the Charge of the ensuing Year: If there be discovered Misapplications, or undue Preferences, the Commons only can frame the Accusations, and lay them before their Lordships for Judgment.
Commissioners of Accompts.
That the Managers added, That, though this Bill be thought so useful at this time as cannot be sufficiently expressed; yet nothing can be of greater Importance to the Publick, than the maintaining the just and distinct Rights and Privileges, which each Estate in this Kingdom enjoys, according to our Constitution. The Lords have many high Privileges to recommend their Lordships to the Favour of their Prince, and to support their Figure in the Government: But the Commons have little besides this one of giving Money, and granting Aids. This is their undoubted and inherent Right; and therefore every thing that intrenches on That, the Commons may be allowed to be extremely jealous of.
That the Liberty of naming Commissioners to take Accompt of the Publick Money is a necessary Dependence of this Right, is evident, their Lordships will consider, That, when any Aids are given, the Commons only do judge of the Necessities of the Crown; which cannot otherwise be made manifest to them, than by inquiring, How the Money, which hath been granted, and Revenue of the Crown, ..... expended and applied. If the several Branches of the Publick Revenues are rightly considered, it will be found there is some particular Use to which they were originally assigned: There are some necessary Charges incumbent on the King in the Administration of the Government, which those Supplies are to defray: There is no Fund set aside for Contingencies; no Provision made for casual and incident Charges. But all extraordinary Expences require an extraordinary Supply. And, when the Commons do think fit to erect such a Commission, the Expence made in the Execution of it must, soon or late, be drawn from the Purse of the People: And since the Burden must inevitably light upon their Shoulders, they only can be Judges of the Weight which is fit to be imposed; and to assign the Quantum of the Charge; which in this Case is proportionable to the Number of the Commissioners. So that this doth not only relate to this undoubted Right of the Commons, but doth finally end in raising of Money itself: Which being a Privilege derived to them from their Ancestors, and continued by the uninterrupted Practice of all Ages, it is a Right the Commons cannot depart from; but must for ever assert, support and maintain.
For although the Lords, in the Preamble of the Third Reason, seem to wave the Dispute; yet having, in their last Reason, disallowed the Right of the Commons in granting, limiting and disposing Publick Aids, the Commons think it of highest Concern, that this Affair, being the main Hinge of the Controversy, should be cleared and settled.
That the ancient manner of giving Aids was by Indenture, to which Conditions were sometimes annexed: The Lords only gave their Consent, without making any Alteration: And this was the continued Practice until the latter End of Henry the Fifth; and, in some Instances, until Henry the Seventh.
That, in the famous Record, called the Indemnity of the Lords and Commons, settled by the King, Lords, and Commons, in a most solemn Debate, in 9° Hen. IV. it is declared, That all Grants and Aids are made by the Commons; and only assented to by the Lords.
That the modern Practice is, to omit the Lords out of the Granting, and naming them Parties only to the Enacting Clause of Aids granted to the Crown: To which their Lordships have always concurred; and on Conferences, departed from their Attempts of minute Alterations in Acts relating thereunto.
That if then all Aids be by the Grant of the Commons, it follows, that the Limitation, Disposition, and Manner of Accompt, must likewise belong only to them.
And that although the Accompt, then stated, was ordered by the Nineteenth Car. IIdi. and the Act to which this Bill relates, to be brought before their Majesties, and both Houses of Parliament; this was a voluntary Act, and no Concession of the Commons: For when their Lordships insisted upon it as of Right, in 31° Car. IIdi. it was denied: And their Lordships, after several Conferences thereupon, withdrew their Amendment to that Bill.
That the Lords, who appeared as Managers, and spoke at this Conference, were the Earl of Devonshire, the Earl of Nottingham, and the Earl of Rochester.
Commissioners of Accompts.
That the Substance of what was delivered by the Lords, was to this Effect;
That their Lordships are willing, at all times, to meet with the Commons at Conferences, and free Conferences, with an equal Desire to continue a good Correspondence between both Houses; and have often condescended in some things, rather than to go on with further Debates: For though Conferences are the best way of reconciling any Difference between the Two Houses, yet they are Marks to the World, that there is such a Difference: And the Lords, even in this Case, would have condescended to depart from their Amendments, if they had not judged them to be of such Consequence, that they could not do it.
That they took Notice, that it hath been said, That Debates of this Kind ought to be governed either upon Reason or Precedent; and they would endeavour to proceed upon both.
That, in the Act 31 Car. IIdi, for disbanding the Army, there was no Direction to give any Accompt to either House; and, in the Act in the Year 1677, for the Building of Ships, there was no Accompts to be given to the House of Lords: So that these Precedents which the Gentlemen of the House of Commons insisted upon, are not very applicable in the Matter of Debate: For, in the last Act, and the Bill now depending, there is a Clause, That an Accompt shall be given to both Houses.
That the Lords have experienced by the last Act, That the Inquiry their Lordships are directed to take by this Act, are defective and dilatory, for want of Commissioners that can attend them, and are able to explain such things as they may have Occasion to inquire into: And it cannot be imagined that ever they can have That Satisfaction by writing to them, which they may arrive at by personal Examination.
That it is very true, That, in the Act of 19° Car. the Second, for taking the publick Accompts, there were no Commissioners named by the Lords: But it is as true, those Commissioners were not Members of the House of Commons; and they had no reason to disagree in that Matter, because this Objection did not lie against them.
That their Lordships declined all Arguments concerning the Rights of the Commons in granting, limiting, and disposing Publick Aids; and therefore forbore to answer any Arguments of that Kind: For that the Business, now depending, relates only to the taking Accompts, and directing such Part of the Revenue as is not appropriated to the Payment of Salaries to such Persons as are employed therein; which their Lordships take to be quite another thing.
That the Commons urged it with great Weight, "if their Lordships could shew no Precedent for doing This:" But, if there be any such Precedent, their Lordships did hope the Commons would allow them for Reasons: For it is not to be supposed, these Precedents were made without Reasons.
That the Commons insist, They are the Representatives of all the Commons of England; and that the Lords can name no Commoner a Commissioner, nor appoint Money to such Persons for these Services: It appears by the Journals of the Lords (and, it is to be supposed, in those of the Commons likewise), that, in the Poll Bill Aug. 1660, the Lords named Commissioners for the Cinque Ports, and expunged some in Kent and Sussex: To all which the Commons agreed. In an Act 31° Car. IIdi. for disbanding the Forces, the Lords added Bennet Lord Sherrard; and the Commons agreed.
That, in an Act made 12° Car. IIdi, for speedy disbanding the Army, the Lords named Commissioners that were Peers, who were to be joined with Commissioners named by the Commons: And afterwards, in an additional Act, for disbanding the Remainder of the Army, John Walker was added a Commissioner by the House of Lords; and his Salary was Twenty Shillings per diem: Which last Precedent comes directly up to be a Precedent in Point: Only, in the Amendments now offered there are Four, who are to have Five hundred Pounds per Annum each; and he was one, who had Three hundred and Sixty-five Pounds per Annum.
That it was insinuated by some of the Gentlemen of the House of Commons, That the End their Lordships could propose to themselves by such an Inquiry, must be, either to discover, What Offences have been committed in the Misapplication, or whether there be a Failure of the Money for the Ends for which it was intended; and that, to neither of these, their Lordships Inquiry can be of no Use; for, as to the Punishment, it must be by Impeachment; and if there be any Want of Money, the Lords cannot come at it: This their Lordships look on as an Objection to the Clause itself, but not to their naming Commissioners to satisfy their Lordships in relation to the Accompts.
That there are other Uses may be made of these Accompts: The Lords may have Leisure to inquire into these Accompts, whilst the Commons are employed on other weighty Occasions: And the Lords may take notice (for there is an Account of it in the printed Votes, licensed by the Speaker), That the Commons have not made so great a Progress in those Accompts, as their Lordships have done: And, should the Lords discover Miscarriages, they may order a Prosecution of them in the Exchequer, lay them before the House of Commons, or represent the Matter to the King.
That there are some Precedents in Richard IId's time; and it seems to be implied in the Precedents quoted in the Year 1677, about the Act for building Thirty Ships, That the House of Commons have not, of themselves, a Right to take these Accompts: For the Dispute then was not about the Commissioners, but the laying the Accompts before the Commons alone: For, had they Power to call for them their selves, an Act would not have been necessary: And the Precedent of the Lords receding at that time ought not to be reckoned to their Disadvantage; because, from their suspending their Privileges at that time, which they did with a Protestation, and from the Thirty Ships that were built thereupon, that we sit here in safety.
That, in that Dispute, it was acknowledged, That it was the inherent Right of the Lords to call for the Accompts: So that it is no extraordinary thing that the Commons have now done: For this Bill gives the Lords and Commons an equal Right to call for the Accompts: And since the Commons cannot call for these Accompts so well as by this Bill, wherein they have named Persons under their own Jurisdiction as Members of your House, it is but reasonable they likewise should name such Commissioners as they may have Authority to call upon: For the Commons will hardly allow them Authority to send for the Members of the House of Commons.
On the Whole, since the Bill had allowed their Lordships to take the Accompts, their Lordships desired to know, What Reason there could be, Why they should not be allowed the proper Methods of coming at these Accompts.
That the Managers of the Commons, by way of Reply, said,
That the Precedents in 1660, 31 Car. IIdi. and additional Bill in 12° Car. IIdi. were no Grounds for their Lordships insisting to add and appoint Commoners, because in those the Lords had the Consent of the Commoners, signified to their Lordships by their Representatives in Parliament: But the Lords have no Right to impose an Office or Burden upon any Commoner without their own Consent; and, in the Course of the Legislature, the Lords have no means to know, neither hath a Commoner any way to signify his Consent or Dissent, but by his Representatives in Parliament. To insist to appoint Commoners, after their Dissent is signified in the proper Parliamentary way, is to insist upon a Right of appointing Commoners, and imposing a Burden upon them without their Consents: Which their Lordships never pretended to; no more than the Commons to nominate and appoint Peers in any Commissions.
That, in the Aid given 2° of their Majesties Reign, the Lord Durseley was inserted a Commissioner: In case the Lords had not signified his Dissent he had been a Commissioner: And yet That would not have been a Precedent of the Commons Right of appointing a Peer to be a Commissioner, and insisting upon it: But the Lords, by Amendment, left him out; and the Commons agreed to the Amendment, though in a Money Bill; conceiving they had no Right to insist upon naming a Peer, without the Consent of the Peers; who only can bind their own Members; neither can the Peers pretend to a larger Right over the Commons.
That their Lordships, in their Reasons, say, That if they may not nominate Commoners Commissioners, by Parity of Reasoning they may be deprived of assigning Counsel upon Impeachments for Misdemeanor, and in Cases of High Treason where Matter of Law appears.
That the Commons conceive, This is not a natural Consequence: For, in Cases of Impeachment, they act in their Judicial Capacity; and the Law gives the Party accused a Right to have Counsel; and their Lordships assign Counsel, when the Party cannot get Counsel to assist him; and the Law enables their Lordships to do it: But there is no Law which intitles them to nominate Commissioners for passing Accompts.
That their Lordships alleged, That, in the Bill for regulating the Tryal of Treason, both Houses agreed, That their Lordships might assign Counsel, in Cases of Impeachment for High Treason:
That the Bill not passing, That cannot be urged as a Precedent.
That as the Lords cannot supply the Want, That being the Act of the Commons; nor punish the Misapplication till Complaint is made by the Commons; so neither can their Lordships acquaint the Commons at a Conference, That there hath been a Misapplication of the Money; because that were giving Judgment before the Matter came judicially before them.
That the Lords cannot punish a Commoner, except for Breach of their Privilege, without an Information made to the Commons.
That, since no Fruit can be had by their Lordships Inquiry, Why should they nominate Commissioners, not being their Representatives?
And that to insist upon it at this time is most unseasonable, when the Commons, for the Support of the Government, lay under the heavy Burden of so many Taxes; which Weight will be much increased, by being denied Satisfaction of knowing how their Money is disposed of, and having those screened from Justice who misapplied the same: Which must necessarily happen, by denying to agree with the Commons.
That, in Answer to what was said by their Lordships, "That, in case of the building the Thirty Ships, it was admitted, their Lordships had a Right to take the Accompts; it was admitted, with this Distinction, That, as to the stating and examining the Accompts, it belonged only to the Commons: But that the Lords claimed the Cognizance of the Accompts, in their Judical Capacity, for their Information in Case of Misdemeanor.
That, as to the Question, which their Lordships ask, "To what End are these Accompts to be laid before them?" to which there seems some Difficulty to make an Answer; the Commons cannot but observe from thence their Lordships Right to demand to have those Accompts is not very clear; for it is a strange kind of Right for which it is hard to give a Reason.
Upon Consideration whereof, it was Resolved, That, this House doth adhere to their disagreeing with the Lords, to the Amendments made by the Lords to the Bill, intituled, An additional Act for appointing and enabling Commissioners to examine, take, and state, the Publick Accompts of the Kingdom: And that this House doth adhere to the Bill, as it was sent up from this House.
Ordered, That the Report from the Committee appointed to search and inspect the Journals touching the Methods of Conferences, and free Conferences, between the Two Houses, be made upon Wednesday Morning next.
Lord Stanhope's Estate.
A Message from the Lords, by Mr. Meredith and Mr. Keck;
Mr. Speaker, The Lords have agreed to the Amendments made by this House to the Bill, intituled, An Act for the enabling Philip Lord Stanhope, Son and Heir-apparent of the Right honourable Philip Earl of Chesterfeild, together with the said Earl, to make a Jointure and Settlement upon the Marriage of the said Philip Lord Stanhope.
And then the Messengers withdrew.
Mr. Bowyer, according to the Order of the Day, reports the Resolutions of the Committee of the whole House, to whom it was referred to consider of Ways for satisfying the Debts due to the Orphans of the City of London: Which he read in his Place; and afterwards . . . . . at the Clerk's Table: Where the same were once read; and are as followeth;
1. Resolved, That it is the Opinion of this Committee, That, towards Satisfaction of the Debts due to the Orphans of the City of London, all the Revenues of the City of London be charged with the annual Sum of Eight thousand Pounds for ever, for raising a perpetual Fund of Interest at Four Pounds per Cent.
2. Resolved, &c. That, towards raising a further Fund of perpetual Interest, there be laid upon all Coals, imported into the Port of London, Two-pence per Ton or Chaldron, to be collected at the Coal Meters Office.
3. Resolved, That, &c. That, towards the raising a further Fund of perpetual Interest, a Duty of Four Shillings per Ton, in the nature of Prisage of Wines imported into the Port of London, be paid by all Freemen of the City of London.
4. Resolved, That, &c. That, towards the raising a further Fund of perpetual Interest, there be paid by every Person to be bound an Apprentice in the City of London, Two Shillings and Six-pence; and by every Person to be made free of the said City, Five Shillings, over and above what is now paid.
5. Resolved, That, &c. That, towards the raising a further Fund of perpetual Interest, there be paid by every Person that is, or hath, fined for Alderman, or Sheriff of the City of London, the Sum of Twenty Pounds; and for every Common Councilman, Ten Pounds; and every Liveryman, Five Pounds: And that all such as shall hereafter be, or fine for Alderman, Sheriff, or Common Council or Liveryman, do pay the same Sums upon their Admission.
6. Resolved, That, &c. That the Benefit to arise by Licensing of Six Hundred Hackney Coaches in and about the City of London, after the Rate of Five Pounds per Annum apiece, (after the Tax by a Poll upon Hackney Coaches is expired) be applied towards Satisfaction of the Debts due to the Orphans of the City of London.
7. Resolved, That, &c. That the ancient Duties of Water Bailage, and Duty of weighing at the King's Beam in the City of London, be applied towards Satisfaction of the Debts due to the Orphans of the City of London.
The First, Second, Third, and Fourth Resolutions, being severally read a Second time, were, upon the Question severally put thereupon, agreed unto by the House.
The Fifth Resolution being read a Second time;
An Amendment was proposed, by adding thereto "or fining for the same."
And the same was, upon the Question put thereupon, agreed unto by the House.
Resolved, That this House doth agree with the said Committee in the said Resolution, so amended, That, towards the raising a further Fund of perpetual Interest, there be paid by every Person that is, or hath fined for Alderman or Sheriff of the City of London, the Sum of Twenty Pounds; and for every Common Councilman, Ten Pounds; and every Liveryman, Five Pounds: And that all such as shall hereafter be, or fine for Alderman, Sheriff, or Common Council or Liveryman, do pay the same Sums upon their Admission, or fining for the same.
The Sixth Resolution being read a Second time;
And the Question being put, That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution, That the Benefit to arise by Licensing of Six hundred Hackney Coaches in and about the City of London, after the Rate of Five Pounds per Annum apiece (after the Tax by a Poll upon Hackney Coaches is expired), be applied towards Satisfaction of the Debts due to the Orphans of the City of London;
It passed in the Negative.
The Seventh Resolution being read a Second time;
And the Question being put, That the House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution, That the ancient Duties of Water Bailage, and Duty of Weighing at the King's Beam in the City of London, be applied towards Satisfaction of the Debts due to the Orphans of the City of London;
The House divided.
The Yeas go forth.
|Tellers for the Yeas,||Mr. Herbert,||67.|
|Tellers for the Noes,||Sir John Knight,||43.|
So it was resolved in the Affirmative.
Ordered, That a Bill be brought in, according to the said Resolutions, and upon the Debate of the House.
And it is referred to Mr. Attorney General, Mr. Boscowen, Mr. Solicitor General, Sir Peter Collition, Sir Edward Seymor, Mr. Finch, Sir Christofer Musgrave, Mr. Harcourt, Sir Richard Temple, or any Four of them, to prepare and bring in the same.
House reminded of a Bill.
A Message from the Lords, by Mr. Meredith and Mr. Keck;
Mr. Speaker, The Lords do put this House in mind of the Bill, intituled, An Act for Relief of the distressed Orphans of the City of London.
And then the Messengers withdrew.
Trade in Cities, &c.
Mr. Solicitor General presented to the House a Bill to prevent the Decay of Trade in Cities, Corporations, and Market Towns. And the same was received.
Duties on Spirits from Melasses.
Ordered, That Mr. Clerke, Mr. Harley, Sir Richard Hart, Mr. Bridges, Sir Tho. Littleton, Mr. Traverse, Mr. Foley, be added to the Committee to whom the Petition of the Refiners of Sugar, is referred.
Ordered, That Lord Gerrard, Lord Fairfax, Mr. Faulx, Mr. Waller, be added to the Committee to whom the Bill for the Encouragement of Clothiers, and others dealing in Woolen Manufactures, and for Suppressing of Wool Broggers, and Engrossers of Wool, and Blackwell Hall Factors, is committed.
Ordered, That all Committees be adjourned.
And then the House adjourned till Monday Morning, Eight a Clock.