Journal of the House of Commons: Volume 10, 1688-1693. Originally published by His Majesty's Stationery Office, London, 1802.
This free content was digitised by double rekeying. All rights reserved.
Mercurii, 17 die Februarii; 4° Gulielmi et Mariæ.
MAJOR Vincent reports from the Committee to whom the ingrossed Bill from the Lords, intituled, An Act for the better vesting and settling the Manor of East Horsley in Surrey, in Trustees, to be sold, for Payment of the Debts of Phillip Hillyard, Esquire, was committed, That they had considered the Bill; and had directed him to report the same to the House, without any Amendments. And he delivered the same in at the Table.
Earl of Suffolke's Estate.
An ingrossed Bill from the Lords, intituled, An Act to enable the Trustees of James late Earl of Suffolke to sell the Manor of Hadstock in Essex, for discharging several other Manors and Lands of the said late Earl from Five thousand Pounds, the Remainder of Ten thousand Pounds by him formerly charged thereon, was read the Third time.
Lords reminded of a Bill.
Sir Robert Cotton reports from the Committee to whom the ingrossed Bill from the Lords, intituled, An Act for securing, out of some of the Manors, Lands, Tenements, and Hereditaments, of Charles Pelham, of Brockelsby in the County of Lincolne, Esquire, the Sum of Five thousand Pounds, with Interest, and One thousand Pounds, unto Anne Pelham, eldest Daughter of the said Charles, was committed, That they had agreed upon several Amendments to the Bill; which they had directed him to report to the House: And which he read in his Place, with the Coherence; and afterwards delivered in at the Clerk's Table: Where the same were once read throughout; and are as followeth;
Sir Robert Henly, according to the Order of the Day, made a Report from the Committee appointed to receive Proposals for raising Monies upon the forfeited Estates in Ireland, and to inquire into the Disposal of forfeited Estates there: The which he read in his Place; and afterwards delivered, in Writing, at the Clerk's Table: Where the same was read; and is as followeth;
"That there was above Two Million Acres of Lands, Plantation Measure, in the Kingdom of Ireland, besides Houses in Corporations, set out, decreed, or otherwise restored to Irish Papists, pursuant to the Acts of Settlement and Explanation; the Records whereof, that exactly ascertains the Quantum, may be easily had from the Records in Dublin."
"That it is supposed the Irish were in Possession, at least of so much, on their Majesties Access to the Government: For it is conceived, that, since the Court of Claims, there has been more Lands purchased by them than they have sold."
"That it is not yet morally possible to give a true Estimate, how much of these Lands are comprehended in Lymrick and Galway Articles, and such as may otherwise appear to be innocent: But suppose the same to be Two Fifths, then there remains Twelve hundred thousand Acres of Lands; which, when a legal Title in Fee Simple, free from Incumbrance, can be made to the Purchaser, may be worth, one with another, from Fifteen to Twenty Shillings an Acre."
"That it is humbly thought the only way to improve the Lands to the highest Value, when ripe for Sale, is to dispose of them by publick Cant: For it is to be presumed, That every Purchaser will bid to the utmost Value for what lies contiguous to him: But, from what drops from the more considerable Irish Papists now in Town, it is to be doubted, there are more comprised in the aforesaid Articles, and other Articles of Waterford, Sligoe, Drogheda, Carrickfergus, &c. that has been more dormant, than could be well conjectured; whereby the general Security may not be only clogged, but lessened: For it is said, though some of their Fathers were excluded the Articles, the Sons, and such as claim in Remainder, were within them."
"That, if, upon Tryal, it should appear, there are more concluded in all the Articles made with the Irish, than could possibly have been foreseen by any, not privy thereto; yet, with great Submission, it is hoped the hearty Endeavours of such as were desirous to augment the Protestant Interest there, will be candidly accepted, their Soul being truly embarked in the hearty Service thereof; and are greatly concerned it should fall any thing short of what it looked."
"That (it is with Submission offered) Now seems to be the opportune Season to strengthen the Protestant Interest there, and weaken the other, by laying such a firm Foundation, that it may for ever hereafter be put out of their Power to invade or subvert the Government, or otherwise ruin and destroy the Protestant People, as they have, by lamentable Experience, too frequently effected; which will greatly encourage the Protestants to fix and plant there; otherwise, it is to be feared, that many of them will remove, and quit the Country, to settle where they may hope their Children may, in Quiet, reap the Fruit of their Labours."
A Letter, for a Grant to pass the Great Seal of Ireland, to pay the Presbyterian Ministers in the North of that Kingdom, One thousand Two hundred Pounds per Annum out of the Revenue there during their Majesties Pleasure; dated the Tenth of August 1691:
Another Letter, to pay to the Citizens of London Derry, towards Repair of the Great Church, and other publick Buildings, demolished in the Time of the late Siege there, One thousand Five hundred Pounds, out of Arrears of the forfeited Estate of the Earl of Antrim; dated the One-and-twentieth of August 1691.
That Mr. Savage, Clerk of the Crown in the King's Bench in Ireland, attended the Committee with a Copy of the List he had delivered to the Commissioners of the Accompts, containing the Names of Persons outlawed in Ireland: But said, That the Lords Justices ordered him to forbear outlawing several Persons, appearing to be Protestants; viz.
That Sir Charles Meredeth, Chancellor of the Exchequer in Ireland, and of his Majesty's Privy Council, and first Commissioner of the Revenue there, attended the Committee; and informed them, That, in October 1690, the Lords Justices of Ireland sent for the Commissioners of the Revenue, to give an Account or Method, how they should dispose of the forfeited Lands, That Mr. Culleford, a worthy Member of this House, and Three more of the Commissioners, together with Mr. Richard Thomson, Clerk of the Quit Rents, went together, and formed an Address or Scheme, containing Rules, how to govern that Affair, without his Privity or Consent; and brought it to the Board to be signed: And that Mr. Lowther, Mr. Culleford, Mr. May, and Mr. Ford, signed the same; and that he and Mr. Vanhomery refused: Which Address was designed to take it out of the Exchequer, being the old legal and usual Way, into another Way of letting the forfeited Lands by the Commissioners and their Clerks, although he, Sir Charles, declared against it; and, together with the Clerk of the Pipe, and other Officers of the Exchequer, offered to do it on the same Terms, as to Charge, as the Commissioners Clerks had for doing the same. This, he said, he looked upon as the Rise of our Misfortunes.
That, a Month or two after they began to sit, he called for the Book of Entries; and looking upon the same, he found his own Hand, added to the other Four, to an Order he had refused to sign; and, asking the Clerk, in the Presence of the other Four Commissioners, How it came to pass; and the Clerk making no Answer; he caused the Clerk to rase his Hand out again.
He further said, The rough Draught of the Address was never brought to the Board, but brought fairly written, or ingrossed; and an honourable Member of this House, the Lord Connisby, told him, That Mr. Culleford, a Member of this House, said, Sir Charles had nothing to do in it.
He further said, That Killmayham Mills, near Dublin, being no ways demolished or damnified, are of the Value of Two hundred Pounds per Annum; and that he hath heard, that they were taken by Mr. Culleford; and that Mr. Vanhomery told him, That he was surprized in his signing his Lease for the same; and that Sir Charles himself was likewise surprized, when he signed the same: Sir Charles acknowledged, He had not refused the signing some Leases, though made against his own Opinion, and though he had Reason to suspect they were made in Trust for some of the Commissioners, lest he should put the King's Affair into Disorder; but that he was surprized in Signing of the Lease of the Custom-house of Corke: That he had heard, and believes, several Leases were taken, in Trust, for Mr. Culleford, in other Men's Names, particularly Carduffe, Abbots Town, Deanes Town: And, to prove it, produced a Copy of a Receipt, dated May the Seventh 1691, signed William Culleford, to Thaddy Birne for Fifty Pounds, for Arrear of Rent, due for Abbotts Town, and Deane's Town, to the Twenty-fifth of March then last past; which was owned by Mr. Culleford as such; and also an original Letter, under his Hand, to Mr. Swettman, dated October the Twenty-second 1691, requiring him to pay the last half Year's Rent, being Forty-four Pounds Ten Shillings, to Mr. Nicholas Culleford his Brother.
That he advised the Commissioners not to take any of the forfeited Lands; for that it was not fair for the same Persons to be both Lessors and Lessees: And that he commanded Mackanzy, formerly his Servant, not to meddle with, or take any.
Then being asked by Mr. Culleford, Whether there had been any Differences between them; Sir Charles answered, Yes: But that he wondered Mr. Culleford should ask that Question, having given him, the said Sir Charles, the Lye, at the Board in Dublin.
That he went over into Ireland in August 1690; and that, before he came, all the Offices, and Places in the Revenue were filled up, even in the Enemies Quarters; only with some Difficulty he got Two French Protestant Refugees put in: And that it was agreed by all the Commissioners to set all Lands by publick Cant.
The honourable Colonel Fitzgerrald, one of the Privy Council of Ireland, and One of the Commissioners for Forfeitures and Seizures in that Kingdom, informed the Committee, That he served in that Commission Six or Seven Months: That he and his Fellow Commissioners, gave in an Account to the Commissioners of the Revenue of the Seizure of Goods in several Parts of that Kingdom, which amounted to One hundred Thirty-five thousand Five hundred Fifty-two Pounds: The Abstract of which, he delivered in to the Committee in a Paper; and is as followeth; viz.
The State and Account of the Seizures, and other Proceedings of the Commissioners of forfeited Estates, by themselves and those who were employed by their Authority, acting under a Commission from their Majesties, dated July 1690.
No exact Account can be made of the forfeited Leases and Estates, because our Commission was superseded, before we could make up the Accompt of the Estates: However, the whole State of that Affair was transmitted, by Order from the Commissioners of Accompts, to them at their House in Yorke Buildings in the Strand, where is also our Commissions entered.
That Part of them were Protestants Goods: That he, or his Fellow Commissioners, disposed of none of the same, having a Prohibition from the Commissioners of the Revenue for their so doing; and Mr. Culleford, being present, owned the Accompt, as to the total, to be a true Accompt: And saith, That all the Corn in the Accompt mentioned, with Cloaths, and other things, were delivered over to Mr. Vanhomery, Commissary General for the Army.
He further said, That many of the said Goods and Stores were delivered over to Mr. Wybarrow, Storekeeper in Dublin, by Order of the Commissioners of the Revenue: That there were great Storehouses of Corn in Dublin, which were delivered to Mr. Vanhomery.
He produced an original Letter, under Mr. Culleford's Hand, dated the Twenty-second of November 1690, directed to Sir Thomas Atkins, High Sheriff of Kildare, desiring him to remove Soldiers from Cardiffe House, and other Lands, which he claimed as his own, as by the Letter appears; which is as followeth;
"YOU will give me your Pardon, that I now trouble you in a small Concern of my own: You being a Man of Authority in the County of Kildare, I beg of you to remove from me some Soldiers, or rather Officers Servants, and Horses, that are quartered at Cardiffe Town, in the House of Cardiffe; which Place I hold, Part in Lease of the King's private Estate, and the other Part the Commissioners have given me an Authority to enter upon. But the above-mentioned have entered the Premises, and are eating out my Hay and Corn; and not only so, but make a miserable Destruction besides; Therefore, out of old Friendship, send your Order presently to deliver me of them, and you will extremely oblige me; and wherein I can serve you, you shall command me. I have a Man in the House, that does take care thereof, that gives me this Account, and will send you this. Your Favour herein, shall not be forgotten by, Sir,"
He further said, That after the Battle of the Boyne, several that submitted themselves on his Majesty's Proclamation, and that had his Majesty's Protection, were plundered and abused: Of which he acquainted the Commissioners, and of what he thought would follow, which made them fly out into that dangerous Rebellion at the Bog of Allen; particularly George Fitzgerrald of Clan Bullock, who commanded the Forces of the Bog of Allen: And that his Wife told the Colonel, That, had not her Husband's Goods been seized by the Commissioners, her Husband had not flown out into Rebellion: And that he saw Mr. Culliford's Hand, amongst other Hands, to Moncke's Commission, by which he acted; which was to seize the Goods of the Protected, as well as Unprotected: But that Sir Charles Meredith's Hand was not to it.
He further informed the Committee, That one Sweetman, having an Estate nigh Dublin, of about One hundred Pounds per Annum, offered him his Estate to get him off being suspected of murdering some Soldiers in Colonel Foulke's Regiment: But that he refused, saying, He would sell no English Blood: That the said Swettman is alive; and the Estate, he thinks, in the Possession of Mr. Culleford.
That Francis Annesley, Esquire, one of their Majesties Justices of the Peace, informed the Committee, That he came out of Ireland the latter End of November last, upon his private Occasions: That he was employed under the Commissioners of Seizures; and had a Commission from Sir Robert Southall, Secretary to his Majesty, dated the Fifth of July 1690; and seized several Goods; which he delivered for the Use of the Camp.
He said, He offered Two Shillings and Six-pence an Acre for the said Lands, called Newland, being about Six hundred Acres; and would have given Three Shillings and Six-pence, rather than have gone without it.
That Mr. Culleford's Servants broke open the Doors, and took Possession, and put a Lock thereon: He acquainted Mr. Culleford, That this was very hard, that he should have nothing either for his Pains, or Expences he had been at in his Employment; and was answered by Mr. Culliford, He must apply himself to the Commissioners of the Revenue. And
That New Abby in the County of Kildare is about Seven hundred Acres, a forfeited Lease of one Weasly, was formerly lett at Four Shillings and Six-pence per Acre, and now lett for One Shillings by the Commissioners; and is in Possession of Mr. Charles Monke.
That the Moiety of Old Conhill, being to be lett at a Cant, this Informant bidding much for it up to Two hundred and Seventy Pounds per Annum, Mr. Culleford was angry at it; which some Gentlemen, standing by observing, bid him desist: And that one Mr. Weasly outbad him: But it was for the Use of Mr. Richard Thompson.
That Mr. Annersley further said, That the last time he went from the Committee, Mr. Culliford, as he passed by him in Westminster Hall, said to him in an angry and threatening manner, That he knew him well enough; and he should have spoke all Truth.
That Mr. Fountein informed the Committee, That, after the Surrender of Drogheda, he had a Warrant from Sir Robert Southwell for One hundred Hogsheads of French Wines for his Majesty's own Use; and, going to Dublin to the Commissioners for their Order, Mr. Culliford told him, The Wines were Part disposed of, and the rest promised: That they were worth, there, about Fifty-five Pounds per Ton.
That Charles Deereing, Esquire, Auditor General of the King's Revenue in Ireland, informed the Committee, That the Course of that Kingdom is, That the Collectors make up their Accompts but once a Year, which is at Christmas; and that there has been only One half Year accompted for; viz. from Midsummer 1690, to Christmas following, which they did then, that so the Time of Accompting might be afterwards as usually: That some Officers that were employed in King James's time, are still in Commission.
That Mr. Heighly of Dublin said, That Begatroth, the Lord Merionge's Estate, lying just without Dublin, and lett to good and substantial Tenants at Five hundred and Thirty Pounds per Annum, is now lett, by the Commissioners, for Three hundred Pounds per Annum: That he employed one Sherriffe to offer Four hundred and Fifty Pounds for it; but he took it for himself at Three hundred Pounds; the Under Tenants paying still Five hundred and Thirty Pounds on the Leases still running.
That Mr. Collins, an Officer of the Revenue in Ireland, affirmed the same, as to the Estate of the Merrions being so under-set, that Mr. Heyleigh saw an Order under the Hands of the Commissioners of the Revenue, and remembers particularly Mr. Culliford's Hand was to it, directed to the Sub Commissioners of the County of Wicklow, to seize the goods of Richard Sandon, and others, notwithstanding any Protection they had: The said Richard Sandon was a Protestant, and a Sub Commissioner under the Commissioners for Seizures: That Mr. Sandon's Goods were accordingly seized; and he made Application to them for his Goods; but they were not restored to him.
That Mr. Collins again informed the Committee, That Carduffe, Upper and Lower Island Mills, Castle Knock near Dublin, are in Mr. Culliford's Possession; also St. Tooley's Wells: And that Mr. Monk occupied some forfeited Lands for him.
That Mr. Griffith informed the Committee, That Island Mills were formerly worth One hundred and Forty Pounds per Annum: That, if he were to hire there, he would give One hundred Pounds per Annum for them: That one Mr. Davis of Dublin, a Brewer and Retaler, is, notwithstanding, Surveyor of the Excise in, and Collector of the Ale Licences: That Mr. Culliford's Brother is a Maltster, and Collector of the Excise in the County of Dublin.
That the honourable Colonel Gore informed the Committee, That Captain Richard, who keeps the Draught Beasts for the Army, took a Lease of one of the Commissioners of his Majesties Revenue in Ireland, for Eighty Pounds per Annum, of a Place near the Nasse; for which the Commissioner paid but Thirty Pounds; the Commissioner's Name he could not remember.
That Sir Toby Butler informed the Committee, That Mr. Warren of Carduffe, who was within the Articles of Limerick, preferred a Petition to the Lords Justices, to have the Possession of his Estate; but found a Caveat entered with the Secretary on the Behalf of Mr. Culleford, that he should not have Possession without his being heard: And that they told him, Mr. Culleford had the Land granted to him in Custodiam: That the Reasons given, Why Mr. Warren could not have Possession, were,
Whereupon, Sir Toby Butler complaining to the Lords Justices, That the Lands in the King's Possession ought not to have been extended by any Subject, without the King's Privity or Consent, much less by a Commissioner; he was answered by the Lord Connisby, as he remembers, That Warren had best agree with Mr. Culleford.
That Mr. John Kent informed the Committee, That being at Corke about Two or Three Months since, the Collectors of the Customs there told him, That he wondered, that the Wharfage and Cranage of the Wharf, and Cranes there, erected by the late King James at great Charge (who bought also the Land of the Corporation of Corke), were lett by the Commissioners at Thirty Pounds per Annum; whereas they were then worth Two hundred Pounds per Annum, That being the Second Port of that Kingdom; and that he paid so much for them to Mr. Culleford: That the said Kent was Surveyor of the Port at Dublin, and put out by Mr. Culleford, who placed his Brother Tregonnell Culliford in his room: And that afterwards, the said Mr. Tregonnell Culliford went to one Mr. Evans to learn to write and cast Accompt.
That Wm. Stanner, belonging to the Train, told him, That he paid Mr. Culliford Eighty Pounds per Annum for Cardiffe Town near the Nasse; which is Fifty Pounds per Annum more than he pays for the same.
That several Protestant Gentlemen of Ireland complained to him, That their Goods, viz. Wool, Tallow, Hides, that were seized by King James, and laid up in the Storehouses at Waterford, were there detained, and kept from them by Mr. Culleford (though they were ready to starve), although they had made out their Property to the Surveyor General Mr. Moore; some of which were named by him; viz. Mr. Southcott of Greenham, Mr. Lapp and Mr. Joy of Waterford: But that such as could make Friends to Mr. Culliford, had their Goods delivered them.
Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer acquaints the House, from his Majesty, That his Majesty had received a Petition from the poor French Protestants; and had commanded him to deliver the same, with their Majesties Declaration of the Twenty-fifth of April 1689, and the said poor Protestants Case, which was in Print, to this House: And that his Majesty desired, That this House would take the same into their serious Consideration.
Which Petition, Declaration and Case, were delivered in at the Table: Where the same were read: setting forth, That the extreme misery of the Petitioners having enforceed them to make their Application to this House for their Relief, by their Petition of the Nineteenth January last, there was a Committee appointed to consider of the same, and make Report thereof to the House, with their Opinions thereupon: Which they have accordingly done: But not having his Majesty's Pleasure signified to them, as the Petitioners are informed, they have made no other Progress in it: And the Petitioners, having formerly troubled his Majesty with the Circumstances of their sad Condition, do forbear the Enumeration of them now; only humbly offer it to his Majesty, That, if some Relief be not suddenly provided for them, they must miserably starve in this his Majesty's Kingdom: And therefore imploring his Majesty to signify his Pleasure to this House, That a sufficient Fund may be settled to enable his Majesty to relieve the poor Petitioners.
WHEREAS it hath pleased Almighty God to deliver our Realm of England, and the Subjects thereof, from the Persecution lately threatening them for their Religion, and from the Oppression and Destruction which the Subversion of the Laws, and the arbitrary Exercise of Power and Dominion over them, had very near introduced: We finding in Our Subjects a true and just Sense hereof, and of the Miseries and Oppression the French Protestants lie under for their Relief, and to encourage them that shall be willing to transport themselves, their Families, and Estates, into this Our Kingdom, We do hereby declare, That all French Protestants, that shall seek their Refuge in, and transport themselves into this Our Kingdom, shall not only have Our Royal Protection for themselves, Families, and Estates, within this Our Realm; but we will also do Our Endeavour in all reasonable Ways and Means, so to support, aid, and assist them in their several and respective Trades, and Ways of Livelihood, as that their Living and being in this Realm may be comfortable and easy to them:
THE French Protestants, who, by a special Providence, have taken refuge in this Country, need not to justify their Retreat into a Kingdom, where so great Zeal hath been shewn for that Holy Religion which they profess, and for which they have suffered so many things: The greatest Part of them have, after some time, found Ways to maintain themselves, and their Families, by Trades they were brought up to, or by bearing Arms for the Service of this Nation: Neverthless, there remains about Three thousand, who had miserably perished, had not their Majesties had Compassion on them: It is for these poor Protestants, that we implore the Compassion of this honourable House; beseeching you to consider, That among them are,
First, Many Persons of very good Quality of both Sexes, born to fair Estates, and bred accordingly, without Trade or Profession; which, after having been ruined by the Dragoons, were forced to come over without any Part of their Estates.
Secondly, A great many Ministers, whose Education, and Attendance on their Ministry, do render them unfit for any other Work; and who are so much more worthy of Compassion, for that the Edict, which broke the Edict of Nants, did command them to depart the Kingdom of France within Fifteen Days, upon Pain of being sent to the Galleys; so that they are come naked, and destitute of Support, into the several Countries where they have taken Refuge.
Thirdly, Many Gentlemen, and others, brought up either to the Law, or Physick; and many Merchants and Tradesmen of all Sorts, who by great Age, Infirmities, and Losses, are disabled to follow any Employments; besides Children, yet too young to be put out to any Trade.
Above Thirty Ministers, who were maintained in the Country by the Charity Money, will be obliged to quit their Congregations, and will be immediately followed by their Flocks, both being necessitated to come to London to get Bread.
Judges Commissions and Salaries.
An ingrossed Clause was offered, as a Rider, to be added to the Bill, That no Fee shall be taken by any Chief Justice or Justice, Chief Baron or Baron, or by any Officer attending the said Courts, or by any Clerk of Assize, or his Deputy, or by any Clerk of the Peace, or his Deputy, or by any other Person, to their or either of their Use, for or by reason of the Entry of any Cause to be tried, Tryal, or Proceedings in any of the Courts of Westminster Hall, or in or at the Courts of Assize, and Nisi prius, Courts of Oyer and Terminer and Gaol-delivery, or Court of Sessions in or for any City, Town, or County, or for passing the Sheriffs Accompts, other than such ancient legal Fees, as have always been allowed and taken; a Table of which, signed by the Judges of the respective Courts, shall be hung up for publick View in the said respective Courts, or near thereunto; where all Persons concerned may have Access to the same, during all the Time of the Session of the Judges or Justice in the said Courts: And all Fees taken by any of them, or by any Officer attending the said Courts, or by any other Person to their Use, other than such as shall be expressed in such Table, so assigned, and hung up, as aforesaid, are hereby declared to be an Extortion upon the People: And all and every Person and Persons, offending herein, shall forfeit to the Party grieved the Sum of Forty Pounds, to be recovered by Action of Debt, Bill, Plaint, or Information; wherein no Essoign, Privilege, or Wager of Law, nor any more than one Imparlance, shall be allowed.
Supply Bill; Poll Tax.
Supply Bill; Loan on Excise.
The Lord Falkeland, according to Order, presented to the House a Bill for Borrowing of Money upon Two Acts of Parliament, the one made in the First, and the other in the Second Year of their Majesties Reign, for granting several additional Duties of Excise upon Beer, Ale, and other Liquors, in order to the more speedy Building of Seven-and-twenty Ships of War, by the latter of the said Acts provided to be built. And the same was received.
Court of Claims in Ireland.
An ingrossed Bill from the Lords, intituled, An Act to impower the High Court of Chancery, and the Court of Exchequer, to accept of the solemn Answer or Evidence of any of the People called Quakers, was read the First time.