Journal of the House of Commons: Volume 10, 1688-1693. Originally published by His Majesty's Stationery Office, London, 1802.
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Veneris, 24 die Februarii; 5° Gulielmi et Mariæ.
MR. Waller reported from the Committee to whom the ingrossed Bill from the Lords, intituled, An Act for vesting the Manor of Barcrofts, otherwise Low Thonock, Hinton, otherwise Hengton, and other Lands in the County of Lincolne, Isle of Ely, and the Counties of Cambridge and Norfolk, in Trustees, for Payment of the Debts of Thomas Towers, Esquire, and making Provision for his Wife and Daughter, was committed, That they had examined and considered the same; and had directed him to report the same to the House, without any Amendments: And he delivered the same in at the Clerk's Table.
Leasing Bangor House.
Mr. Lutterell reported from the Committee to whom the ingrossed Bill from the Lords, intituled, An Act to enable Humphry Lord Bishop of Bangor to make a Lease of Bangor House, with the Appurtenances, in the Parish of St. Andrew's, Holborne, London, for a competent Term of Years, in order to the New-building, and Improving the Rent thereof, for the Benefit of his Successors, was committed, That they had examined and considered the same; and directed him to report the same to the House, without any Amendments: And he delivered the same in at the Clerk's Table.
Mr. Travers reported from the Committee to whom the ingrossed Bill from the Lords, intituled, An Act to enable Roger Price, Esquire, to sell some Part of his Estate, for Payment of Portions to the Daughters of John Price, Esquire, deceased, was committed, That they had examined and considered the same; and also the Petition of Mary Price, Sidney Price, and Anne Price (the Consideration whereof was referred to them); and had made several Amendments to the Bill; which they had directed him to report to the House: The which he read in his Place, with the Coherence; and afterwards delivered in at the Clerk's Table: Where the same were once read throughout; and then a Second time, one by one; and, upon the Question severally put thereupon, agreed unto by the House; and are as followeth; viz.
L. 32, after "Wife," add "which said Term of a Hundred Years, and Trust, is now vested in Simon Lloyd, of Vachdiliog in the County of Merioneth, Esquire, Meredith Lloyd, of Ragat in the said County, Gentleman, and Sidney Buynner, of Masemochnant in the County of Denbigh, Gentleman, by the Assignment of the said Owen Thelwall."
L. 34, after "Baronet," leave out "Robert Bulkley, of Old Place in the County of Anglesey, Esquire, and Tho. Bulkley the younger, of Old Place aforesaid, Esquire;" and, instead thereof, insert "William Williams of Llanvorda in the County of Salop, Esquire, Price Devereux, of Vaynor in the County of Mongomery, Esquire, Robert Wynn, of Garthmiliog in the said County of Denbigh, Clerk."
L. 15th, after "Sale," add "and also all the reasonable Costs and Charges of the said Simon Lloyd, Meredith Lloyd, and Sidney Buynner, the Assignees of the said Owen Thelwall, in and about the Execution of the said Trust, and passing this Act."
L. 30, after "that," add "until such Payments, or Satisfaction, made of the said Five thousand Pounds, or so much thereof as shall be due to the Daughters of the said John Price, at the time of such Sale; and also of the said Twenty Pounds a Year, to each of them, allotted for their Maintenance, until the time of such Sale and Payment, and the reasonable Charges and Disbursements, of the said Simon Lloyd, Meredith Lloyd, and Sidney Buynner, the Assignees of the said Owen Thelwall, in the Execution of the said Trust, and Passing of this Act."
L. 33, after "Hereditaments," leave out "the Profits thereof, received by the said Simon Lloyd, Meredith Lloyd, and Sidney Buynner, Assignees of the said Owen Thelwall;" and instead thereof, insert "in the said Counties of Denbigh and Flint, hereby vested in the said Trustees to be sold, shall be and remain in, and the Profits thereof received by the said Simon Lloyd, Meredith Lloyd, and Sidney Buynner."
Mr. Arnold reported from the Committee, to whom the ingrossed Bill from the Lords, intituled, An Act for the better Assurance of the Manor of Woodlands, and Hundred of Knolton, unto Edward Seymour, Esquire, was committed, That they had examined and considered the same; and directed him to report the same to the House, without any Amendments: And he delivered the same in at the Clerk's Table: And the Bill was read the Third time.
Making Sea Water fresh.
Sir Tho. Littleton reported from the Committee to whom the Bill for making Sea Water fresh, clear, and wholesome, was committed, That they had considered the same, and the Petition of Robert Fitz Gerrald, Esquire, and others (the Consideration whereof was referred to them); and had made some Amendments to the Bill; which they had directed him to report to the House: And which he read in his Place, with the Coherence; and afterwards delivered in at the Clerk's Table: Where the same was once read throughout; and then a Second time, one by one; and, upon the Question severally put thereupon, agreed unto by the House.
A Petition of Anthony Smith of Redriffe, Mariner, was read; setting forth, That, in 1677, Thomas Bromhall borrowed Five hundred Pounds of the Petitioner; and, for his Security, mortgaged some Lands, which he held of the Mayor and Burgesses of Shrewsbury, at Forty Pounds per Annum Rent, and the Lease of a small House in London, the Equity of Redemption whereof the Petitioner afterwards purchased for a further Sum; and was put into Possession thereof: That, Two Years after, the said Lands were Extended, upon a Recognizance of One thousand Six hundred Pounds, entered into by Bromhall about Thirteen Years before; and the Petitioner was forced to pay Four hundred and Twenty-five Pounds on that Extent: Upon which, the said Recognizance was, by Order of Chancery, assigned to the Petitioner: That the said Bromhall was, at his Death, seised of the Office of Warden of the Fleet, with its Appurtenances; which were affected by the said Recognizance, but were mortgaged to Hen. Norwood, Esquire: That, in 1685, the Petitioner exhibited his Bill in Equity against Norwood, and others, to have his said Four hundred and Twenty-five Pounds, and Interest, paid out of the said Office; and obtained a Decree to redeem Norwood, and then to be paid all his Demands, out of the said Office: That the Petitioner is informed, an ingrossed Bill from the Lords is now before this House, for selling the said Office, which will, as advised, absolutely exclude the Petitioner from the Benefit of the said Decree and Recognizance; which will be to his Prejudice near One thousand Pounds: And praying, That he may not be excluded; and, That he may be heard, before the said Bill do pass this House.
Ordered, That the Consideration of the said Petition be referred to the Committee to whom the ingrossed Bill from the Lords, intituled, An Act for the Sale of such Interest as Thomas Bromhall, an Infant, hath in the Office of the Warden of the Fleet, and in Thirteen Houses adjoining, and in an Office of the Custody and Keeping of the Palace of Westminster, for the more effectual Payment of Debts, is committed.
Ordered, That the Hearing of the Matter touching the Election for the Borough of Newark in the County of Nottingham, which was appointed to be heard before the Committee of Elections and Privileges the Third of March next, be put off till Friday the last Day of March next.
Supply Bill; Poll Tax.
Bishop of London's Estate.
The Lords have passed a Bill, intituled, An Act for exchanging several small Parcels of Land in the Parish and Manor of Fulham, belonging to the Bishoprick of London, and Part of the Bishoprick of London, for other Lands of the like Value, to Charles Earl of Monmouth, and his Heirs: To which they desire the Concurrence of this House.
Exporting Gold and Silver.
Resolved, That this House will, upon Tuesday Morning next, at Eleven a Clock, resolve itself into a Committee of the whole House, to consider of the Bill for preventing the Exportation of Gold and Silver, and melting down the Coin of this Realm.
East India Trade.
Supply Bill; Impositions on Merchandize.
Then the House proceeded to consider further of the ingrossed Bill for granting to their Majesties several additional Impositions upon Merchandize: And several Amendments were severally proposed to be made in the Bill; viz.
An ingrossed Clause was offered, as a Rider, That the Commissioners for the Customs, and all Officers and Servants thereto belonging, shall take their respective Oaths for the faithful Execution of their several Employments, with a Blank as to the Time.
Resolved, That the Bill do pass: And that the Title be, An Act for granting to their Majesties certain additional Impositions upon several Goods and Merchandizes, for the prosecuting the present War with France.
State of Ireland.
And the Serjeant gave an Account, That he had endeavoured to give Mr. Culliford Notice thereof; and, particularly, been at the House where he used to lodge: And that he was there informed (as well as by others), that he went into Ireland in September last; and that they had not heard that he was come over since.
THAT, after his Majesty's Victory at the Boyne, greatest Part of Lynster was found in a good Condition; Abundance of Corn and Cattle, and great Stores, left by the late King James; and such considerable Forfeitures of Goods secured, that it was supposed, with a small Supply from England, the Army might be supported for a Year: And yet the Mismanagement this Year was so great, that, notwithstanding the great Supplies granted by the Parliament of England, for the carrying on the War in Ireland, the Army there, for want of Pay, lived at Discretion upon the Country; whereby the Country was destroyed more in one Winter, than it had been by King James's Army.
The forfeited Goods of the first Year were valued, by the first Commissioners that had the Management of them, to be worth One hundred Thirty-five thousand Pounds; and yet it did not appear that the Commissioners of the Revenue, who soon after took the Charge of them, did ever account to the King for above One thousand Eight hundred Pounds, besides what was charged to the Army, which amounted to about Five thousand Pounds.
Great Part of the forfeited Goods in the Country were not included in this Valuation; for several offered to make Proof before the Committee, just before their Prorogation, that there were Parcels of Goods in the Country were not included; and particularly, that Mr. Culliford, who was first in the Commission of the Revenue, had, by private Orders to the Officers under him, in the Country, seized, and disposed to his own Use, Abundance of such forfeited Goods.
The Method pretended was very fair; to give publick Notice, by posting it up at the Custom-house Door, that Lands in such a Barony and County were to be set: But their Practice was very different; for often, when any Number of Persons came, from those Parts where the Lands lay, to bid for them, or the Tenants in Possession, who could give most for them, Notice was given, that the Commissioners had ordered other Lands to be set that Day; and thereby those that were able to bid most were sent away.
This Artifice was proved before the Committee of Grievances, in the several Farms taken for the Use of Mr. Culliford, at a Fifth Part of what he again let it for, for his own Use: And Complaints of this Nature were so numerous, that the Committee, finding that they should not have time to examine them all, made one general Vote, That it was a great Grievance, and Breach of Trust, for the Commissioners, or any in Trust for them, or employed under them, to take forfeited Lands.
There was another Instance of the same Nature, very remarkable; which was a Complaint made by Mr. Davis, a Member of the House of Commons there, That he, finding the Salt Pans, in the North of Ireland, were posted up to be set, came to bid for them; and was told by Mr. Thompson, Clerk of the Quit Rents, That he should not be permitted to bid for them: And, when Mr. Davis told him it was a great Abuse, if all Men were not permitted to bid; he was answered by Mr. Thompson, That was nothing to him; he should not be allowed to bid for them.
This being proved by Mr. Davis before the Committee, Mr. Thompson was questioned about it: Who, after he had made some Difficulty, at last confessed he had done it by Order of my Lord Coningsby; and immediately recollecting himself, said, It was, by Order of the Lords Justices, set to Judge London at forty Pounds per Annum, as I remember, when Mr. Davis declared he would give more than One hundred and Forty Pounds per Annum: And, by all the Inspection I had time to make in the Books and Rent Roll brought before the Committee of Grievances, I could not find, that the Lands were generally set for above a Fourth Part of their present Value, and generally to Favourites, or Persons that seemed to be in Trust for others, such as the Lord Chief Baron Heyley, Judge London, and a Hackney Coachman, who was returned Tenant to many of the best Farms near Dublin.
The forfeited Lands the Second Year, when all Ireland was reduced and quiet, were set for about Ten thousand Pounds; and the only Reason assigned, why the Forfeitures of the whole Kingdom, in time of Peace, should set for Ten thousand Pounds, when Part of them the Year before, during the War, were set at Thirty-two thousand Pounds, was, That the Articles of Limerick and Gallaway restored many Forfeitures; but it was evident, that there could not be by One Fourth so much restored as was gained by the Surrender of those Two Towns.
Upon the Reducing of Ireland, great Stores of the late King James were found in Drogheda, Dublin, Waterford, Kingsale, Corke, Gallaway, Limerick, to the Value of more than One hundred thousand Pounds; and these Mr. Robinson, Deputy Paymaster to the Lord Coningsby, had the chief Charge of; and is thought to have imbeziled to the Value of Eighty thousand Pounds.
There was also great Quantity of Corn heaped up, Five or Six Foot thick, in Cork, till it rotted, while they wanted no Conveniencies there to lay it in: And this was believed a Contrivance to cover the Embezilment of other Stores, under Pretence of their being all destroyed.
The Instance of the Mismanagement in Ireland is That of the Treasury: The Treasury was never before in the Hands of the chief Governor; but the usual Method was, that the chief Governor gave Warrants for Payments out of the Treasury: There was then several Cheques on the Treasurers Receipts, as the Auditor, Clerk of the Pipe, Clerk of the Pells: And every Monday Morning was brought to the chief Governor the Clerk of the Pells' Books, by which appeared all that was received and paid: But this was all made useless, whilst the Treasury was in one of the Chief Governors Hands: Nothing but his Lordship's great Integrity can be any Assurance in the then and present Management of the Treasury; nor yet, however unquestionable his Lordship's Justice may be, can it prevent the Opportunity Collectors and Receivers have for Frauds that are through the Kingdom: the Practice now being foreign to all former Methods, no Cheque upon them, no more than there is upon his Lordship; for that, whereas formerly the Collectors and Under Receivers used to have Exchequer Acquittances for what they paid in, and gave Exchequer Acquittances for what they received; neither of these are now done; but his Lordship, or his Deputy, draws Money from the respective Collectors, by Bills of Exchange, and Paper of Assignments; by which means the Collectors lie open, and are only dependant on his Lordship, and Commissioners of the Revenue; which his Lordship can call to Account when he sees fit for his Service; but, how and when the King can, is a Question: This would have been moved in the Parliament of Ireland; but it is not safe; for that where Men have not Employments to lose, they are left to the Correction of the Army for what they dare say in Parliament, as was the Case betwixt Mr. Slone and Brigadier Steward, and the King's Serjeants at Law; who both told me, That Mr. Pountney, Lord Lieutenant's Secretary, came to them, by the Lord Lieutenant's Order, for their Patents, next Day after the Prorogation, as I remember.
The Lords Justices granting Protections to the Irish: Whereby the Protestants, who had been robbed by them; were not allowed the Liberty to sue them at Law: The Judges accordingly, in their Circuits, declared from the Bench, That they had received such Instructions from the Government; and these Protections were granted to many Irish, besides those who laid Claim to the Articles of Lymerick and Gallaway:
The ill Payment of the Army, whereby they have been forced, during the War, to live at free Quarters on the Country, which has very much destroyed it, and, by that means, sunk the King's Revenue for the present, and put the Kingdom out of Condition of maintaining the Army for the future:
Great Part of the Army made up of Irish Papists, who were Soldiers in the late King James his Army during the War; which the Parliament of Ireland were so apprehensive of, that they addressed to the Lord Lieutenant to have them turned out.
One thing I omitted relating to the forfeited Goods; That there was a Ship Load of Wool, taken out of the Stores of Waterford by Mr. Robinson (said to be sold for Six hundred Pounds, as a Commissioner of the Forfeitures told me), was afterwards disposed of by Mr. Robinson: It was taken under Pretence of using it at the Siege of Corke: Others believe it was sent to France; for that a Ship was taken coming from Brest bound for Dublin, loaded with French Goods, and taken by one of his Majesty's Ships, Captain Pedor, Commander, who brought her into Waterford: Notice of which being sent to Dublin, Orders came from the Governor to the Captain, to deliver her to the Officers of the Custom-house, for that she belonged to Dublin: The Captain refusing, threatening Letters were sent to him from Robinson: To which the Captain answered, he feared them not; and said, They had best be quiet, for that he had taken such Letters of their settling a Correspondence in France, as would do their Business: Upon which they desisted; and the Captain carried away the Ship into England. This Account I had from a Colonel in the Army, now in London, who came Three several times, desiring me to bring it in the Charge against my Lord Coningsby; and obliged me to write as he then delivered it, saying, He thought it the Duty of the Gentlemen of Ireland to prosecute his Lordship as a common Enemy to that poor Kingdom.
I, Sir William Gore, of Donnegall, in the County of Donnegall, and Kingdom of Ireland, Baronet, in Obedience to an Order of the honourable the House of Commons, bearing Date the Two and-twentieth of this instant February, do hereby certify, this Twenty-fourth of February 1692,
That a Part of their Majesties Forces had free Quarter on their Majesties Protestant Subjects in the County of Donnegall, and other Counties in the Kingdom of Ireland, during, and for some time after, the late War, for which they have not made Satisfaction: And, I demanding Satisfaction from some of the Officers of Colonel Tiffin's Regiment, and others who quartered longest there, was answered, That their Pay was stopped to satisfy their Quarters, and pay for such Goods as were taken up by their Men.
That about Fifteen hundred Men of the Irish Soldiers, most of which were well armed, and were under the command of Brigadier O'Donnell (as they styled him), were quartered, for the most part, on the Protestant Inhabitants of the County of Donnegall, being followed by a great Number of Women and Children, &c. where the said Soldiers were continued on free Quarter, a considerable Part of the Winter, Anno 1691, their Officers taking up Cattle from the Protestant Inhabitants by Force, as particularly some Cows from James Hammon and Hugh Henderson, who live near Donnegall; by which they, and many others, were greatly impoverished: That the said Quarters were still unsatisfied, and the Cattle unpaid for: That I then lived in Donnegall, and was an Eye Witness of these, and many more Insolencies of the Irish on this Occasion.
That the Place of my Abode being in the Country, renders me unable to give a positive Answer to those Questions that the honourable the House of Commons were pleased to propose to us; the Matters therein contained being, for the most part, transacted in Dublin: All which I humbly certify under my Hand.
That, which I think to be the greatest Grievances of that Nation, are the Free Quarters, and the Discouragements the Protestants of Ireland had by my Lord Lieutenant's proroguing the Parliament before any Grievances were redressed: Which hath occasioned not only many of the new Planters, but also several of the old Inhabitants, to remove out of that Kingdom with their Effects; and detain others, that formerly lived in that Kingdom, from returning thither again: Which, may, in time, if not prevented, render that impoverished Kingdom a farther Charge to England.
I know that several of the Army, since the Peace declared, have exacted from the Subjects Subsistence-money, and Quarters on the Gentry and private Houses, to the utter Ruin of some poor Gentlemen, who had lost most of what they had by the Irish Papists, and have not given Bills; and, when any Bills were given, not for Half of what received; whereof several Examinations have been sent to the Lords Justices, without any Redress.
As for giving any Account how the Revenue was managed or embeziled, I cannot, not being present, at the Committees when that Matter was transacted: Neither do I think it could be fully discovered, the Parliament being so soon prorogued after they fell upon the close Prosecution of that Subject. I doubt not, had my Lord Lieutenant suffered the Parliament to sit, but the great Embezilments had been discovered: But his Excellency denying Leave for Agents to come over, to lay before their Majesties such of the Grievances and Embezilments of their Majesties Revenue, as they could gather in so short a Sessions, and the Reasons of the House of Commons Proceedings, hath occasioned great Dissatisfaction: And I do humbly conceive, there was never a House of Commons in Ireland, that were and are more willing to serve the Crown of England, to the utmost of their Powers; and that expressed a greater Sense of the Expences and Blood that unfortunate Kingdom cost this.
Whether the Earl of Antrim was within the Articles of Limrick, or not, I know not: But he was restored to his Estate of Five thousand Pounds; as was also Phillimy Maginis to near Four hundred Pounds, Daniell Maginis to near Four hundred Pounds, Cormack Oneale to Three hundred Pounds per Annum, and several others of smaller Estates within the County of Downe and Antrim, to the Estates possessed by them before the last Rebellion; some of them now being in better Condition, by plundering the Protestants, than formerly they were.
The Bills given were a great Part returned to the Commissioners appointed to receive them: and, as I was informed by some of the Soldiers, was stopped from them upon Account of their Pay: Though the Country where I was concerned, to my Knowledge, never received any Satisfaction; but were denied Certificates of what Bills were given in; there being near One thousand Pounds due to my Tenants.
His Excellency's Treatment of the Gentlemen that petitioned, and others of the Members of the House, makes me apprehensive, that, when these things are publick, I shall receive no better; which shall not lessen my doing my Duty to their Majesties and Country to my Power.
That, last Wednesday, he came to the Lobby of the House of Commons, with Design to speak with some of his Friends about his private Affairs: That he neither desired, nor knows how it came, that he was called in before the honourable House of Commons.
That he has no Commission from the Army to make any Complaint, in relation to their Arrears: That he neither knows their nor his own Arrear, having not yet stated his Accompts: That he is so far from complaining of any thing that relates to himself, that he is still ready to hazard his Life and Fortune in their Majesties and his Country's Service.
That, having been little in Ireland for these Ten Years past (except during the late War), hath had little Opportunity of knowing the State of that Kingdom; and can neither give an Account of that, nor any Information in relation to the Questions proposed: And therefore desires to be excused any further Attendance.
Being commanded by the honourable the House of Commons, to give some Account in Writing, of the State of the Kingdom of Ireland, pursuant thereto I do this; which cannot be expected should be so full, or perfect, as if I had more time than this one Day given me to do it: And it were indeed too great an Undertaking for me, or any other private Person, to give a complete Relation of the State or Grievances of that Kingdom, when many things have been transacted in secret, and must still, (as far as they can) be concealed by those who cannot maintain what they did: Nor have I the Command of Persons or Papers for my Assistance: Yet, for the Satisfaction of this honourable House, I will faithfully tell them what I have lately observed, or have been credibly informed, and believe may be proved, on that Subject: And, if the same shall be of any publick Service, either to this or that poor Kingdom, shall reckon it more than a Reward sufficient to repair any Injury can be done me on this Account.
It was in August last I went into Ireland, partly on my own private Business, and partly to settle some Affairs relating to the Estate of my Lord Lisburne, who had left me one of his Executors and Trustees of his Estate; and, being there, was chosen one of the Members of the House of Commons; which was the Occasion of my seeing or hearing what I did on this unfortunate Subject.
The Grievances of that Nation I take to consist chiefly of these Heads: First, The not better paying the Army; and Free Quarter, which, by reason thereof, many of them have been forced to take on the Subject there: Secondly, The Embezilment of the Revenue; And, Thirdly, the several Discouragements to Protestants, and Encouragements to Papists there, in the Respects and Particulars hereafter following.
As to the First, I do not take it, that what the Soldiers there exacted on the Country was so much their Fault: For they were often, as I believe may be proved by some of themselves, and others here, for many Months together, left without either Pay or Subsistence; and it could not be expected, the Men should either starve, or go naked: This forced them, contrary to the known Laws, to take Free Quarter on the Country, not only during the Time of the War, but since: And the Manner of it (as may be now proved) was thus: That they had not only Meat, Drink, and Lodging, which the Country pretty willingly submitted to, but, to supply themselves with Cloaths, and other Necessaries, in many Places they taxed the Country, and took and received from them great Sums of Money; and, when it was not paid, in divers Places distrained the Goods and Cattle of such who did not pay; and either disposed them to their own Uses, or appraised and sold them at Undervalues; which was to the Ruin of many poor Families and Persons there. On those Accounts there is due to the Earl of Mulgrave, and his Tenants, Six thousand Pounds; or thereabouts: To the Countess of Ardglasse, and the Lady Eliz. Cromwell her Daughter, and their Tenants, Two thousand Five hundred Pounds: To Sir John M'Gill, and his Tenants, One thousand Pounds: And so to others of Estates; which, in the whole Kingdom, are computed to amount unto far above Two hundred thousand Pounds. There issued a Proclamation, and Commissions, to inquire into these Debts: Whereupon the Bills, which, for a considerable Part thereof, were given by the Officers and Soldiers, and Affidavits of much of the rest where no Bills had been given, were sent to the Commissioners: But so far are the Country from any Prospect of Satisfaction, that, though some few of them in that respect have been preferred, and got Certificates, yet to many others of them, on their Applications there, it has been denied to give them so much as Certificates of their Debts: Nay, I am credibly informed, by a Person of Honour now here, That, in several Places, where Compositions were proposed to be made with the Country by divers of the Officers and Soldiers, to which the Country agreeing, and being willing to get back their Bills, thereupon sent to have them returned, but were denied them: And, at the same time, I doubt not but that several of the Officers and others here will make appear, the same have been to the full detained from them out of their Pay: So neither the Soldiers, nor the Country, have the Money. Nay, the poor Country were forced to brew for the Soldiers, and were denied to have their Bills allowed for so much as the Excise, which they were forced to pay in ready Money for the Beer given to the Soldiers, as may be now proved. And, if this were an End of these Miseries, what is past might be the easier forgot: But, as I am now credibly told, and have seen some late Accounts from thence to that Purpose, it is at the same rate of Free Quarter, and taxing the Subject with great Sums of Money, in divers Places, continued to this Day; and, if not prevented for the future by the better Pay of the Army, will tend to the Destruction of the Kingdom. Yet I am not surprised, that it should so be; for it was publickly told us, by some nearly concerned in the Government, That, unless we would pass the Money Bills, as brought from the Councilboard, the Army should or would take Free Quarter: But there appears to be the less Necessity for it now, were the Money rightly applied; for that, of their own shewing, the standing Revenue of Ireland, at the low Computation themselves offered thereof, is now sufficient to discharge the Expence of the whole Civil and Military Establishment of that Kingdom, as the same was produced, wanting only Seventy thousand Pounds: Towards the Supply whereof, a Bill passed for an additional Excise on Beer, Ale, and other Liquors; which, at a very low Rate, was estimated would raise Thirty thousand Pounds; and others computed it at far higher; and the rest had been supplied another way, had not the Parliament been prorogued before they had time to do it.
For the Second, which is the Embezilment or Misapplication of the Revenue; I have been credibly told, That, had the great Sum raised here for the Reducement of Ireland, together with the Profits of the standing Revenue, and forfeited real and personal Estates there, been applied to that Use, the Expence of the War might have been thereby defrayed: But I have heard many Complaints of the Misapplications; and the People the more sensibly find themselves thereby aggrieved; for that, when the Money is wanting for the Support of the Government, the poor Country is called upon to make it good: And therefore the House of Commons in Ireland voted this to be one of their great Grievances. And here I pray Leave to inform this honourable House, that, where-ever I mention the House of Commons of Ireland, or any of their Proceedings, or what has been done relating to them, I do not mean it by way of Appeal, or as if they had not Power, in a Parliamentary way, with their Majesties Concurrence, to redress their own Grievances, had they Leave to sit: But I mean to do them what Right I can, by undeceiving many Persons, to whom they, and their Proceedings, have been greatly misrepresented here; and particularly, that they may continue in the good Opinion of this honourable House.
Pursuant to the said general Vote, the Committee of Grievances entered upon particular Inquiries of the Revenue, and forfeited Estates: And the first Person I remember fell in their Way was Mr. Culliford, a Member of this honourable House: Who came before the Committee; and, being acquainted, that he stood charged with the taking into his Custody several forfeited Goods and Chattels, and disposing thereof to his own Use, when he was one of the Commissioners of the Revenue, and not accounting for the same; he answered, That he was willing to do any thing for the Information of the Committee, relating to the Revenue, or other Persons: But, if he were to answer for himself, he told them, he was a Member of the Parliament of England; and, though he was willing to wave his own Privilege, yet the Privilege of the Commons of England might be concerned therein; which he offered to their Considerations: Which, I confess, I was surprised to hear; for that, when he was formerly, here in England, charged with some of the same Matters, before this honourable House, and afterwards at the Treasury, he then seemed to think it hard to defend a Fact here, which happened in Ireland, where his Witnesses and Papers were: And though he did, at last, put in an Answer to the Charge, yet it was within a Day or two of the Prorogation: And out of that very Answer appear considerable Evidences against him. But the Matter of his Privilege being reported to the House, as, on the one Side, the House was very much concerned for their own Right of calling Persons to answer in such Cases; so, on the other Side, upon this, and likewise on all other Occasions, they paid the greatest Deference imaginable to this honourable House; and, for that Reason, adjourned the Debate, and never determined against his Privilege, nor summoned him any more; but, to prevent the Loss of the Testimony, they examined the Witnesses: And, thereupon, it was not only my Opinion, but the general Sense of the rest of the Members, that he was most plainly guilty of very great Breaches of Trust, when he was a Commissioner of the Revenue, by seizing, and converting to his own Use, forfeited Goods and Chattels of considerable Value; and by letting Leases, in Trust for himself, of the Mills and Wears of Killinainham, Mr. Kerdiff's Estate; the Cranage and Wharfage of Cork, which had been a new Exaction and Oppression upon the Merchant, first set up by himself and Mr. Warren; of Kerdiff's Estate; of very considerable Values, at very inconsiderable Rates: And to this he added the Estate of one Sweetman; to which I could never hear of any Title he had, save that of the French King, That it lay contiguous to Cardiffe: But Colonel Fitz Gerald did here prove, that Sweetman offered it to him, to procure him a Pardon of a Prosecution he was under, as suspected for the Murder of the Nine Soldiers near Dublin: But Colonel Fitz Gerald refused to be concerned in such a Matter; and it happened, in fact, that Mr. Culliford was after possessed of the Estate, and leased it to Mr. Sweetman himself; who lived quietly thereon, and was no further prosecuted, that ever I heard.
I have heard much of a Trust of forfeited Lands in the County of Kildare, which had been lett to one Mr. Ansley (whose Brother is now here, and, I believe, can prove much of the same) for One hundred Pounds per Annum, or more; and, in times of Peace, is said to be worth Three or Four hundred Pounds per Annum: Of a sudden Mr. Ansley heard he must quit the Land; which greatly concerned him; and therefore applied himself for the Continuance of his Lease; and would have increased the Rent: But remove he must: And it was presently lett to one Mr. Eunicke, for some small Rent: And the Commissioners (for their own Indemnity, as the general Report was) inserted a Clause in the Lease, That it was by express Order, or Letter, from my Lord Lieutenant.
There were likewise other Leases made, in Trust for other of the Commissioners, or their Friends, at great Undervalues; which were upon Inquiry before the Commons: And here give me Leave to observe, that this, of the Commissioners of the Revenue making Custodium Leases, is an Innovation; for, in times heretofore, for whatever I could learn, the Court of Exchequer granted all the Custodium Leases, and used to prefer the best Bidder: And, it is to be feared, this new Way was not introduced for nothing.
There was (as Colonel Fitz Gerald, who is now here, attested) by him, and other Commissioners to inquire into the forfeited personal Estates, an Accompt of such, to the Value of Thirty thousand Pounds, or thereabouts, returned to Mr. Culliford, and others the Commissioners of the Revenue; of which I believe a very small Account hath been made to their Majesties: And I could never yet hear any good Reason why that Commission of Inquiry was laid aside.
The forfeited Estates of Ireland are of very considerable yearly Value, whatever may be pretended to the contrary, by any who design Grants of them to themselves, or their Friends. It is true, they have been much lessened by the Articles of Lymrick and Gallaway, and by the Judgments made at Council Board since that time, determining who are, and who are not, within the Articles: How they came so far to intermeddle, I know not; but it seemed the stranger to me, for that I remember this honourable House had, in some measure, laid their Hands on those Forfeitures; and a Bill now depending for Disposing thereof; and therein a Clause to avoid (as I remember) all such Judgments as should be given relating thereto, save such as were pursuant to that intended Act.
The Earl of Antrim was restored to his Estate, reputed of Five thousand Pounds per Annum, by such Judgment of the Council Board, on this Point, as I have credibly heard, that the Articles of Lymrick providing for all in that Town, or in any Garisons in several adjacent Counties, the Earl of Antrim was on the Top of a Hill, with a few Men, surrounded with a small Ditch, which was judged to be a good Garison, and he restored to his Estate, and his Outlawry reversed.
Mr. Longfeild, an Attorney, formerly a Protestant, but turning Papist in the late Reign, had an Estate, computed at Eight hundred Pounds per Annum; and, being outlawed of Treason, and under no Articles, but what since the War he made for himself, he came lately into this Kingdom, where he appeared in publick, and returned with some Letter or Order to reverse his Outlawry, and be restored to his Estate: Which has been done accordingly, as I most certainly believe.
It is by the foresaid several Ways the Forfeitures come to be lessened: But, for those which still remain, and are yet considerable, there is another Way; and that is, by Grants or Assurances thereof made, and to be made, to great Men: For Instance; the Lord Sidney, as I have been credibly informed, and believe may be proved, hath a Grant, or Assurance, or Promise, of a good Part of the Lord Tyrconnell's, and other Estates: Lord Athlone, of Lord Slane's, and others (Lord Conisby, of Fagan, of Feltram's, or other considerable Estates; and so others, to such Degree, that, as I am lately credibly informed from Ireland, there remains little or nothing of the clear Forfeitures, but what is pitched upon, or in a way of Grant to some great Person; but the poor Officers of London Derry and Inniskilling, who, (as may be said) had the Misfortune to survive their Brethren, and have lost the most of all they had, are now in this Town, about Sixty of them starving for want of Bread, or Money to carry them home.
In order to the better discovering of the Embezilments of the real and personal Forfeitures, there was lately, before the Prorogation, a particular Committee, of which I was one, appointed to inspect the Books (which had been brought to us) of them; which were so general, and without Method, that we could make little or nothing thereof: And we therefore prepared a Report to the House (which was ready to be made the Day we were prorogued), to acquaint the House how imperfect they were; and to pray their Orders how we might come at the more particular Accounts; or to that Effect. However, though we could not get at the Informations we wished, yet it was observed by several of us, that there had been no Cheque upon the Treasury since their Majesties sending Forces into Ireland, for ought we could learn; and was more especially wanted, since the Treasury was put into Method, and open; for that many Receipts of Money might have been made, which are not accounted for: And we were credibly informed, that there were many Paper Assignments, and Bills of Exchange, issued out of the Treasury, upon several Collectors in the Country, for which no Exchequer Acquittances are yet given, but the Bills and Assignments still in the Collectors Hands, not accounted for by the Treasury: And it was observed, how impracticable and way of Loss to their Majesties it is, that the Receipts and Issues of the Revenues of Ireland should be accounted for in England, where little or no Cheque can be upon them. We likewise were credibly informed, That, when General Ginkle left Ireland, he signed Warrants for above Twenty thousand Pounds, to the Disposition whereof he was a Stranger; by which means the King might be greatly injured; for that they might thereby charge to his Accompt Payments never made, or otherwise they only paid Part: And it was thought strange, that the plain Accompts of the Receipts and Payments should be Fifteen Months depending in England; and thought it would be very convenient to have those Accompts sent back into Ireland, to be examined there by some Persons, who understood the Establishment and Methods of the Treasury there: And it was moreover thought very inconvenient, that the same Person should be both Paymaster, or execute the Office of Vice Treasurer, and one of the Lords Justices, who should have some Ascendant over the other Officer, to inspect his Proceedings, and correct them, as there should be Cause.
1. The licensing or suffering so many Papists to wear or keep Arms; and the permitting so many of them to be in the now standing Army there; of which I heard many Accounts, given by the Members, from their several Countries: Of which the House of Commons had that Apprehension, that they were of Opinion it did endanger the Peace at home, and might encourage the French to return; and therefore addressed to the Lord Lieutenant, for Remedy thereof: Which his Excellency said he would take care to do.
2. Hindering the Protestants from their due Course at Law, against the Papists; and many illegal Protections granted to the Papists; of which there were plentiful Accounts given in the House, and no less than Three hundred Protections entered at the Sheriffs Office in Dublin, as I was told by one sent for that Purpose to search: And when the Reason was asked about some of them, why such Persons should be protected, it was answered, by one who had a hand in the making them out, That it was Arcana Imperii, and might not be fit to be told.
3. Determining the Property of a Protestant by the Lords Justices, without hearing him (I mean, when my Lord Lieutenant, and a Member of this honourable House, were Lords Justices); which happened to Henry Longford, Esquire, a Gentleman of good Knowledge, and undoubted Integrity to this Government. The said Lords Justices made an Order, for him to deliver One hundred and Fifty-seven . . . . . . : Which he refused to do; and by Letter acquainted them, that he had none such in his Custody, as were marked J. R. (which their Order said those were) or which ever belonged to the late King James; but he had, for ready Money, bought One hundred and Thirty-seven, from one Mr. Cusack, who had good Property therein. On this he was sent for to Town, and offered to give any Security, and would legally try the Property: Which would not please them; but the Lord Conisby threatened him, that, if he would not deliver them, they should be taken from him by force: On which Mr. Long ford, being Sheriff of the County of Meath, declared, if any body came with such illegal Order, he would resist them with Force: So they let him alone, but sent a Pursuivant for Mr. Cusack, and kept him in his Custody Two Days, at great Expence, till he plainly proved, that he had a good Property in the Bullocks; and then discharged him. Mr. Longford stayed here some Days, to give this Account to this honourable House: But, being forced at last to go to Ireland, he hath writ the same at large to me in a Letter, since he went.
5. But the greatest Discouragement of all to the Protestants, and Encouragement to the Papists, is the Manner of proroguing the Parliament, and what hath happened since that time. I think I may, without Flattery of them, say, there never was a House of Commons in that Kingdom of better Value for their Estates, or the Sincerity of their Principles to the English Protestant Interest; and, on all Occasions, expressed the grateful Sense they had of his Majesty's Care and Hazards for the Reducement of that Kingdom; as also towards this honourable House, and others of this Kingdom, who, in their Distresses, so liberally extended their Supplies for their Relief. They received my Lord Lieutenant's First Speech with great Joy; and immediately voted an Address of Thanks: For thereby he told us, That he received their Majesties Commands to call us, as the greatest Demonstrations they could give of their Affection to us, who had suffered so many great Oppressions, almost to an utter Desolation of the Country, and could not be so well settled as by a Parliament; which he said was a Blessing that, for so many Years, we had been deprived of; whereby the English Interest had been in apparent Danger of losing not only their Religion, but all that Property, which, with so great Expence of Blood and Treasure, they had purchased; and therefore doubted not but we would make use of it to pass such Laws as may tend to a firm Settlement of the Country upon a Protestant Interest: And that he was ordered by their Majesties to assure us, That nothing should be wanting on their Parts, that might contribute to our perfect and lasting Happiness.
This was all very good, and very true: For though, by the ancient Law, there should be a Parliament there every Year; which was so far heretofore observed, that, in about Two hundred Years before the last Parliament, there was in Ireland Fifty-two new Parliaments; but, from the time of the last Parliament till now, they had, contrary to the Law, an Interval of Twenty-seven Years: In which time there had grown over the Kingdom many insupportable arbitrary Powers and Jurisdictions, Oppressions and Grievances; besides, that we wanted many good Laws, which had been made in this Kingdom, and were as much wanted there; and now we doubted not but we were met to redress and remedy all.
When the Proposal of Money was sent, it was readily embraced; and when my Lord Lieutenant sent, that, by the Computations of the Civil and Military Lists of the Establishments, and of the Profits of the Revenue, produced by Mr. Poultney, there would be wanting Seventy thousand Pounds, to support the Government there; though it be almost incredible, to any body who has not been in the Country, to believe the great Desolation, Waste, and Poverty, which generally reigns throughout the Kingdom, save in some Parts of the North, and in and about Dublin, Corke, and a few other Towns, which are better than the rest; yet they were resolved to bear any they could, rather than be further burdensome to this Kingdom; and therefore voted a Sum, not exceeding Seventy thousand Pounds, to be raised; and spent several Days about finding the Ways and Means how to do it with the greatest Ease and Equality to the Subject: And therefore were tendered to us Two Bills, which had been prepared at the Council Board; the one, for the said additional Excise, which was pretty well liked for its Substance; and the other, for a Charge of Fifteen-pence per Acre on all Corn throughout the Kingdom; which was thought very unequal in itself, there being very great Difference of Corn, and of the several Sorts, and the Grasiers and Traders escaping the Tax, and so many People starving for Want of Bread. It was thought strange by some, why these Bills should have been kept from us so long, to let us spend so much Time, as aforesaid; and, when they were tendered, it was greatly disliked, that the Privy Council should prepare Money Bills, before the Heads of them were first found and proposed by the Commons. And here I would undeceive every body, who are made to believe, that we intended, by that, or any other Proceeding, to avoid Poyning's Law, and thereby make ourselves independent (as they call it) on this Kingdom: For all we did was, to assert the Right of the Commons having the sole Right of first founding or proposing the Heads of Bills for Raising of Money; and that, when the Commons had proposed them to the Council Board, the Council Board should draw them into Bills, and transmit them into England, to be transmitted back, according to the Method of Poyning's Law: Which was made on the Twenty-seventh October; and Seven Days after that we were prorogued: And the Cause assigned by his Excellency's last Speech, of the Third of November for his Displeasure, is, That he is troubled, that we, who had so many Obligations to be loyal, and dutifully affected to their Majesties, should so far mistake ourselves, as to intrench upon their Majesties Prerogative, and the Rights of the Crown of England, as we had done by our said Vote of the Twenty-seventh of October, and a subsequent Vote of throwing out the Corn Bill, because it had not its Rise first from the Commons: And therefore he requires his Protest against those Votes to be entered in the Lords Book; and so prorogued us till the Sixth of April.
It was thought, by many Members there present, that his Excellency had called us undutiful and ungrateful Subjects; and, if they were in a Mistake, I confess I was in the same: But I find little Difference in any Apprehension between these Words, and the Meaning of the Expressions in the printed Speech: However, this was very unkindly taken; and thought strange, that this should be the Cause of our parting so; considering, First, That the Reasons appeared, as we conceived, for the Right of the Vote to be with us, in that nobody can deny, but that, before Poyning's Act, it was intirely in the Commons: And it was not conceived by many, that ever Poyning's Act was intended to prevent the Commons of that original Right; but it was designed chiefly to prevent the Danger of an Irish Interest being too prevalent with a chief Governor there, to the Prejudice of the English. And the same Reasons which was before the Act for the Commons to begin Money Bills still remains, that they are presumed to know better than the Council what Money the Country is able to bear, and how it may be best raised with Ease to the Subject: But that was not so much insisted on in the Case, for that we proposed to pursue Poyning's Act, as aforesaid, having also the Act of 3 and 4 Phil. and Mary explanatory thereof: And, finding the Reasons with us, we inspected the Journals of the House, and there found the same Vote in Substance, in 1662; and likewise the Practice to the same Purpose formerly, and never before complained of; but perhaps sometimes upon an Emergency, and for Expedition, this Right might be overlooked for a time.
Hereupon it seemed, after the Debate, to be the unanimous Opinion of the House, That the Right was so: But it was much pressed, that, for Supply of the present Necessity of the Government, we should pass these Two Bills, with a Salvo to our Right; which was not at first well liked by some, who thought it no good Expedient to yield the Right, and have only a Salvo for it; the rather, for that we were ready to have come, if we had been called sooner, and were now desirous to stay till we might raise the Money in our own way; and so we might have some of our other Laws go hand in hand with the Money Bills; whereas, the other way, the Money would be given, and the Laws left behind: However, an Expedient and the present giving some Money, was so earnestly pressed, that the House became all unanimous in what was done, that is, in passing the Excise Bill; which was to raise the ready Money, with a Declaration, that it was only for this time, and should never be drawn again into Precedent; and by asserting the Right by the said Vote, and by rejecting the Corn Bill for the said Reasons of not having its first Rise from the Commons: Which was all done, and was reckoned a great Compliance, and not doubted but it would be pleasing to his Excellency; for that this last Expedient was particularly proposed, and prosecuted by some of the Privy Council, who had frequent Access to his Excellency, and seemed to understand his Mind.
It was yet the stranger to us, because Sir Cyrill Wych, on Wednesday the Second of November, reported from his Excellency to the House, That he had heard a good Character of Dr. Walkington, the Chaplain to the House; but, being recommended by the House to his Excellency, he would, on that Account, take a more particular Care of him; and so on other Occasions his Excellency was pleased always to return very good Answers to the Addresses of the House: And further, the same Day, Wednesday the Second of November, he reported from his Excellency, That he had appointed Friday next for the Committee to attend him in Council, with the Heads of the new Laws we had prepared; which made many of us think, that his Excellency had not then resolved to prorogue us on the Thursday (which was the only intervenient Day): However, it was done on Thursday the Third, and was reckoned the greater Loss to us, for that the Heads of the Laws we had prepared to tender him were of very great Consequence to the Nation; viz. The Heads of Habeas Corpus Act, of the Act for restraining the Jurisdiction of the Council Board, of the Act against buying and selling Judicial Offices, of the Act against Frauds and Perjuries, and of several other good Laws of Force here, but not there: But, being prorogued the Day before, we had not the Opportunity so much as to tender them: It was only told us, on the Prorogation, by my Lord Chancellor, That his Excellency being informed of what Heads were intended to be tendered him, he would take them into Consideration; and, against the next Meeting of Parliament, such of them as should be found requisite should be in Readiness to be brought into Parliament; and I am now credibly informed, That some of them are transmitted hither; but the Habeas Corpus Bill (which I value more than all the rest,) I am told, is left behind, and not thought requisite.
It was yet the stranger, for that in those Seven Days we had been very busy, by a Poll Bill, to raise the rest of the Money, and intended to do it sooner that way than the Corn Bill would have done, which could not be till next Harvest: As also for that we were then coming upon the more close Pursuit of our Grievances, and the Embezilments of the Revenue, in which we thought we were at our Duty to the King and Country.
And after all this Heat about (as was said) our Intrenching upon the Prerogative, it is to be considered, That it is of great Use to the Subject, that the Commons should have that Right; and, if they are willing to give the Money, it seems but a small Favour to let them find the easiest Ways of raising it: But, on the other Side, such a Prerogative as that the Council Board may first find the Ways of raising Money, I cannot see of what Use it can be, unless it were to occasion more Heats; for the Commons, without doubt, have a Negative Vote, and can throw it out: Besides, that I know not how this Claim comes by the Name of a Prerogative, which I take to be an ancient inherent Right of the Crown; but whatever can be said of this must be drawn from Poyning's Act, and the Third and Fourth of Philip and Mary.
Now, for what happened since the Prorogation; many of the Members thought it very necessary to have Agents to attend their Majesties here, on the Behalf of the Protestants, to render them, and their Proceedings, right in their Majesties Opinion; as also to solicit such Matters as might happen relating to them: Which Way of sending Agents hither had been frequently heretofore used, but was done by the Consent of the Government there: Wherefore, to pursue the former Method, an Address was presented to his Excellency, by Sir Robert King, Sir Arthur Rawdon, Sir Arthur Lanford, and Mr. Anesley, and signed by them, on the Behalf of themselves, and others, which was no more than to pray Leave to appoint Agents to attend their Majesties: To which his Excellency (as they declared) returned this Answer; That they could not have a better Agent than the King himself, who had been Agent for the Protestants these Twenty Years; but, if they would have Leave for any to go over to beg the King's Pardon for their riotous and seditious Meetings, they might have it: This sounded very hard in the Ears, both of the Gentlemen to whom it was said, and others, who know them to be Men of great Value and Integrity: But this was not the End; for there was, as I believe may be proved, a Direction to prosecute them upon an Information in the King's Bench; which they were resolved to defend: But it proves it was better considered; and they were let alone.
This, of having Agents here, was thought the more necessary, for that the Papists have Agents to solicit their Affairs here, and make Collections for them in Ireland; and have had Leave to inspect and peruse a Bill, prepared for the Parliament there, before transmitted into Ireland, and to argue against the same, where there were none of Ireland to oppose them; and if the Protestants had Agents here, it is not like, that such Bills would have been sent them, without Amendments, as were now transmitted to the Parliament, with very fair Titles; but forced to be rejected, for the Bodies of them, as a Bill, to confirm the Act of Settlement; which is much wished for: But there were such things therein, that, instead of confirming, it would have set things far looser than they were; for which it was rejected: And the same Fate befel a Bill for reversing the Proceedings of Attainders passed, when the late King was there; which had been very welcome to many timorous People there: It fared no better with a Bill for punishing Mutineers and Deserters, which had passed, if it had been as the Act for that Purpose here is; but it was to continue for Three Years, and from thence to the next Session of Parliament; which was so uncertain, and the Charges, relating to the regulating Quarters, left out, that, for these Reasons it was rejected; and Heads of another ordered to be brought to supply it: And its next Neighbour was a Bill to erect and establish a Militia: Which we were very desirous to do, for the publick Safety; but this would have brought a Burden on the Subject more than we thought them able to bear; besides the great Penalties, and arbitrary Ways of Taxing, and raising the Money, and an Obligation thereby to find more Men to serve in Counties, than there now are Protestants in some of those Counties; for which and many other Faults, that Bill was also rejected; and the Heads of another ordered to be prepared.
Mr. Osborne and Mr. Brodrick, their Majesties Two Serjeants at Law, who had freely spoke their Minds, and are known to be Persons of great Knowledge and Integrity, were presently, after the Prorogation, superseded, and since that, have been turned out, even, of the Commission of the Peace.
The said Sir Arthur Rawdon was superseded of being Governor of the County of Downe (which, in some things resembles the Lord Lieutenant of a County here); and that Command or Government was offered first to the Earl of Donegall, and then to the Earl of Mountallexander; who both refused it, being taken from Sir Arthur Rawdon, on such Account: And I do not hear, that, to this Day, any body has accepted thereof.
The Consequences of the said Matters have happened very evil to the Publick: For the Planters are discouraged, and Persons who came thither, with their Stocks and Money, from Scotland, and elsewhere, are removed again; and so are others of the ancient Inhabitants: And so the Country is like still to lie waste and depopulated, till better Settlement be there.
Nor is what is past the only Discouragement: For, I believe, it may be proved, by Mr. Kearnes, now here, That his Excellency told him, He would prepare and tender another Money Bill, the next Sessions, in the same manner as the last was; though it were but for Ten Pounds, or some other small Sum, to assert the King's Prerogative: Of which Mr. Kearns advised his Excellency to consider well of it; for that, he believed, the House would meet again of the same Mind as before, and reject it: To which his Excellency declared, That then they should have no more Parliaments; or to that Effect. I confess I was sorry to hear such a Report; and Mr. Kearns, who is a Man of Credit, quoted for the Author: Which made me inquire of him the Truth thereof; which he owned to be to the Effect aforesaid; and, I suppose, still will do the same; but if he should . . . . to do; it can be proved by others, to whom he told it, before he spoke to me any thing thereof.
I fear I have been too tedious; which, I hope, will be excused by the Greatness and Length of the Subject; and for what uncorrect Expressions may have escaped me (as I believe there are many), I hope the Streightness of the Time (not being able to review or peruse it) will procure my Pardon from this honourable House; but I have endeavoured, as much as I can, to set forth the Truth, and nothing else, to the best of my Knowledge or Belief; and that will always justify itself.
As to what became of the late King's Stores, or how the additional Article of Lymrick came to be added, or other Queries, proposed by this honourable House, I can say nothing thereof, being a Stranger thereto.
Being required, by this honourable House, to give an Account of what Discourse my Lord Lieutenant of Ireland had with me lately, in that Kingdom, touching any Money Bills, in the Parliament there, my Answer thereto, so far as I can, at this time, recollect, is as followeth:
HAVING, in December last, while in Dublin, resolved on a Journey for England, I went on Saturday, the Seventeenth of that Month, to wait on his Excellency, and to know what Commands he had thither: Whereupon he was pleased to desire me to dine with him next Day, at the Castle; which I accordingly did: After Dinner we went to my Lord's Chamber, my Lord Massareene; the young Lord Moore, Mr. St. George, and One or Two more, being present: Where falling on some Discourse touching the Proceedings of our House of Commons there, of which I was a Member (especially in reference to those Matters that had occasioned some Difference amongst us), my Lord Lieutenant asked me, amongst other things, What I thought our House would do at next Meeting, or to that Effect. I told my Lord, we hoped his Excellency's Speech would do much, to give Satisfaction, and remove all Misunderstandings amongst us. My Lord replied, That, as to any Speech he should make, he might speak it just then; but that, if the House did not wave some things they had insisted on, their Matters might not perhaps be as some were apt to imagine; or Words to that Purpose. I told his Excellency, I hoped there might be no Occasion of Variance; for that we were always very willing to give what Money the Kingdom could bear, for the publick Service and Safety; and desired only to take (as we conceived) the best and most effectual Ways for that Purpose; and had shewn our Readiness in Part, and would soon have accomplished the rest, had we sat but some little time longer: That it was like we should begin where we left; and so there would be no Ground of Debate, as to any new Money Bills brought before us. To this my Lord did reply, That there would be certainly a Money Bill laid before us, as soon as we met, though it were but for a very small Sum. I made Answer, that though I could not positively undertake to foretel the Sense of the House in such case, yet would not wish the Experiment were made. My Lord asked me, Why so. I replied, Because I was confident the Bill would not pass, unless the Members had much altered their Minds; which I did not yet find they had done. My Lord made Answer, That then we should have no more Parliaments, or were like to have none; or Words to that Purpose. I answered, I hoped not so, having such Need thereof, at this time; or to that Effect. My Lord replied, That if the House would insist upon what was not their Right, they could not expect to sit. I made Answer, That I hoped they would insist on nothing that was not their Right; but were not as yet (that I knew) convinced of their Error in what passed in the House on this Matter; or to that Purpose. I said further, in Discourse, That we had considered the Laws, and every thing else, as we could; and had both good Lawyers, and other Gentlemen of good Parts in the House; and went upon the clearest Reasons we could find, though his Excellency had not, perhaps, fully heard them; That nothing herein they had done could be supposed for any private Interest, or Party: That I hoped, after all, some better Expedient might be found to avoid all Inconveniencies herein; which was the Repealing of Poyning's Act, as to Money Bills only; that being the main thing still offered in Objection against us: Which, were it supposed, as was said, to affect us in this Particular, would but still occasion Delay in transmitting Bills to and fro, which might be rejected at last, if not adjusted to the Mind of the House, or found any way inconvenient; while, in the mean time, without any such Stops, Money might be quickly raised for the Use of the Kingdom: But that, however, it was not conceived That Act, or any other, had divested us of what Right we still claimed in this Matter, being only to prepare Heads of Money Bills, and no more, as knowing best the true Funds of the Nation: That, as Jurisdiction was the peculiar Right of the Lords House, so Money Bills were in that of the Commons; and that Right well consistent with the Act, though not therein particularly excepted. I had much more Discourse with my Lord Massereene, and some others, to the Effect aforesaid, and touching the true Intent and Construction of Poyning's Law, and the Precedents that had passed in this Matter, which I shall not insist on, this being what material occurs to my Memory touching the Matter required, if not in express Words, yet to such Effect, as near as I can remember: But whether my Lord, in this free Discourse, did not speak some things to sound me, and hear my Replies, in these Matters, or as his own real Thoughts, I cannot say; but did not design to make the same publick, unless in Obedience to the Commands of this honourable House: Witness my Hand, this * Day of Feb. 1692/3
Address on Irish Affairs.
Resolved, That an humble Address be presented to his Majesty, setting forth the Abuses and Mismanagements of the Affairs in Ireland: And that a Committee be appointed to prepare the same upon the Debate of the House.
And it is referred to Mr. Attorney General, Mr. Mordant, Mr. Palmes, Mr. Waller, Mr. Granville, Serjeant Blincoe, Mr. Wharton, Mr. Smith, Mr. Mountague, Mr. Harley, Sir Chr. Mu grave, Mr. Hutchinson, Mr. Boyle, Mr. England, Sir Walter Young, Mr. Colt, Mr. Clarke, Lord Falkland, Mr. Arnold, Sir John Knight, Mr. Bridges, Mr. Cha. Boyle, Mr. Traverse, Mr. Bowyer, Mr. Hobby, Mr. Hopkins, Mr. Solicitor General, Lord Pawlet, Lord Bellamont, Mr. Hungerford, Sir Fr. Winnington, Sir Robert Clayton, Lord Coningsby, Mr. Biddulph, Sir Francis Massam, Mr. Bertie: And they are to meet To-morrow in the Afternoon at Four a Clock, in the Speaker's Chamber.