Journal of the House of Commons: Volume 11, 1693-1697. Originally published by His Majesty's Stationery Office, London, 1803.
This free content was digitised by double rekeying. All rights reserved.
Veneris, 8 die Martii;
Commissioners of Accounts.
An ingrossed Bill, from the Lords, intituled, An Act to enable Trustees of William Gage Esquire to raise Money, by a Mortgage of Part of his Estate, for the Preservation of the Timber growing thereon, was read the First time.
Mr. Christie reported from the Committee, to whom the ingrossed Bill, from the Lords, intituled, An Act for the ratifying and confirming a certain Indenture of Lease of Marton Mear in the County of Lancaster, made by the Earl of Derby, and others, to Thomas Fleetwood Esquire, was committed, That they had examined and considered the same; and had directed him to report the same to the House, without any Amendments: And he delivered the same in at the Clerk's Table.
An ingrossed Bill, from the Lords, intituled, An Act to enable Elizabeth Howland, the Widow of John Howland Esquire, deceased, to settle Lands upon the Marriage of his sole Daughter and Heir; and for settling Lands upon the said Widow Howland, for her Life, in lieu of Dower; and for indemnifying Sir Josias Child, and the said Widow Howland Grandfather, and Mother, of the said Heir, in disposing of the personal Estate belonging to her, upon her Preferment in Marriage, she being under the Age of One-andtwenty Years; was read a Second time.
Resolved, That the Bill be committed to Lord Wm. Pawlet, Mr. Comptroller, Sir Cha. Sidley, Sir Tho. Lee, Mr. Kendall, Sir Ra. Carr, Mr. Bockland, Mr. White, Sir Robert Davers, Mr. Thornhagh, Sir Tho. Dyke, Mr. Burrard, Mr. Cooke, Sir Tho. Vernon, Sir John Banks, Mr. Vincent, Mr. Phil. Foley, Mr. Bowyer, Mr. Christie, Mr. Boyle, Sir Richard Hart, Lord Robert Russel, Mr. Holt, Mr. Stonehouse, Mr. Ash, Mr. England, Mr. Hungerford, Mr. Fuller, Sir Ra. Dutton, Sir Eliab Harvey, Sir Fra. Massam, Sir Gervas Elwes, Sir John Moreton, Mr. Hobby, Sir Henry Ashurst, Sir John Bolles, Mr. Burrington, Sir Walter Yonge, Mr. Mannaton, Mr. Colt, Sir Tho. Cooke, Mr. Scobell, Mr. Done, Mr. Frewen, Mr. Neale, Sir Tho. Littleton, Mr. Tho. Foley, Mr. Harley, Sir Wm. Drake, Mr. Vaughan, Mr. Lutterell, Mr. Arnold, Sir William Ellis, Sir Richard Temple, Lord Digby, Mr. Pigot, Mr. Norris, Mr. Hopkins, Sir Wm. York, Mr. Beke, Lord Edward Russell, Lord James Russell, Mr. Wharton, Sir Fran. Blake, Mr. Lloyd, Mr. Bulkley, Mr. Stockdale, Colonel Perrey, Sir Robert Cotton, Mr. Roberts, Mr. Travers, Colonel Lee, Mr. Smith, Mr. Waller, Mr. Bere, Mr. Clark, Sir John Key, Lord Castleton, Mr. Pooley, Sir Wm. Robinson, Mr. Robinson, Mr. Lowther: And they are to meet To-morrow at Four of the Clock in the Afternoon, in the Speaker's Chambers.
The Lords have passed a Bill, intituled, An Act to enable Peter Gollop Gentleman to sell a Farm, and certain Lands called Wantsley; and to vest the Inheritance thereof, in Fee-simple, in such Person or Persons, who shall be Purchaser or Purchasers thereof from him; subject only to the Payment of the Sum of One thousand Pounds Principal Money, with the Interest thereof due, and to grow due, unto the executory Estate of Robert Merefield Gentleman, deceased: To which they desire the Concurrence of this House.
Hackney Coach Commissioners.
Mr. Brewer reported from the Committee, to whom the Examination and Consideration of the Petition of Thomas Kemp, and others, on behalf of themselves and others, the ancient Four hundred licensed Hackney Coachmen, was referred, That they had examined and considered the Matter of the said Petition accordingly; and that they had directed him to report the same to the House, with their Resolutions thereupon: And he read the same in his Place; and afterwards delivered the same in at the Clerk's Table: Where the same were read; and are as follow; viz.
That several of the Four hundred ancient Hackney Coachmen, their Widows, and Assigns, were refused Licences; although they produced their Licences, and good Certificates of their Qualifications and Necessities.
Edward Phipps; That he had one of the Four hundred old Licences, No. 237, granted to him; which he produced to the Committee: And that he petitioned the Commissioners to have a Licence; but was refused; though he had always, by virtue of his old Licence, drove a Hackney Coach; and had, at the time he petitioned, a Coach and Horses; And produced his Licence to the Committee.
Matth. Gray; That he had one of the Four hundred old Licences transferred to him, by Alice Johnson, the Widow of John Johnson, to whom it was granted: And that he petitioned the Commissioners, who gave him a Month's time to prove the Widow alive; but, before the Month expired, the Commissioners refused to grant him a Licence, though he produced the old Licence to them.
Hackney Coach Commissioners.
William Ball, Anne Page Widow, with many others, who had Assignments of some of the Four hundred ancient Hackney Coachmen; and for which they paid valuable Considerations; they petitioned; and were denied Licences by the Commissioners.
And that Anne Bates, Mary Piggot, Anne James, Anne Holder, John Stayley, Mary Staughton, Robert Elborough, William Jones, * Medcalf, Samuel Peny, John Paine, Wm. Charnock, with divers others, who for many Years had drove Hackney Coaches, and now had Coaches and Horses; when they petitioned the Commissioners for Licences, and offered to pay the Money required by the Act; and had good Certificates of their good Behaviour and Necessities, most of them having Wives, and many Children, without other Means of Livelihood than by driving Hackney Coaches; yet were denied Licences; to their utter Ruin, and to the great Charge of the several Parishes where they lived.
That the Commissioners published their Summons, for the Notice of the Four hundred ancient Coachmen, in the Gazette of the 4th of June, which was produced; and began to grant Licences on the 11th of June.
Charles Bolton said, That the Commissioners appointed Street-keepers, for each Ward, within the Bills of Mortality, who were to inquire who were best qualified to have Licences; but what Returns they made, he knows not.
The Commissioners said, That of the Petitioners, who had of the 400 ancient Licences in their own Right, none were refused one Licence: And they were not by the Act obliged to grant Two to any Person though he had Two of the ancient Licences, except Edward Phipps, whose Licence had been taken from him by the Commissioners in Scotland-yard; for that he kept a Victuallinghouse: Who granted the Figure he had to Valentine Long, to whom they now granted the Figure.
They insist, That the Act requires them to give the Preference to the 400 old Coachmen, and their Widows; and not to any other Persons claiming from them: And that, except as aforesaid, they have granted to so many of them, and their Widows, as were living at the time of their granting Licences, and petitioned.
Edward Phipps produced his old Licence to the Committee; by virtue of which he had always drove a Coach, not only before, but after the Order of the Commissioners of Scotland-yard: And that a Committee of Parliament, in which, Sir Robert Clayton in the Chair, the Determination of the Commissioners in Scotland-yard was agreed to be illegal: And that Phipps his Licence was good; which Sir Robert Clayton, now of the Committee, confirmed.
Edward Hampsted produced his ancient Licence, figured 334, to the Committee, who take the same to be a good Licence; and ought not have been granted to Widow Terry; who, when summoned, shewed her Title was not an original Licence to her, or her Husband.
And the Petitioners insisted, Where one Person had Two old Licences, he ought to have had Two granted to him now, on Payment of the several Sums due therefore: And that such Persons who had Assignments of such old Licences, for valuable Considerations, purchased, should have been intituled to new Licences; and other the poor Hackney Coachmen before others, to whom granted.
Edward Smith; That Richard Hooper hath a Licence, No. 605, granted to him; who is a Porter to a Person of Quality; who rents it, at 8s. per Week, to this Edward Smith, who is an ancient Coachman, and petitioned; but was refused.
Robert Elborough; That John Gibson, Clerk to Mr. Blathwaite, hath a Licence granted to him, No. 694; who hires it at 8s. per Week to this Robert Elborough, an ancient Coachman; and who petitioned, and was refused.
Joseph Parker; That Madam Pawlet and Madam Lawson, are Ladies who pretend great Interest with the Commissioners; and have a Chamber where they usually reside, which is just over the Office where the Commissioners sit.
That several Licences, which are granted to several Persons, the Petitioners say, are only nominal; and that no such Persons are to be found; the Advantage of which Licences others have; particularly one Wm. Medcalf hath No. 589; Thomas Read, and several others.
Mrs. Metcalfe saith, That her Husband was an ancient Coachman for Thirty Years, and had Horses, Coach, and Stables; hath a great Family to maintain out of this Trade; petitioned the Commissioners; had a Promise of a Licence, and paid his Money for it; and then was told that another Person, by the Name of William Metcalf, of the Parish of St. Paul's Grave, Houlbourn, had the Licence: Upon which the Petitioner was denied; though it appeared to the Committee that no such Person as Medcalfe lived in Holborn; or that there is any such Parish or Place there.
William Ball saith, That he is an ancient Coachman; and produced his Assignment of one of the 400 old Licences to the Committee, as before he had done to the Commissioners, when he petitioned, and was denied; but afterwards Colonel Villiers, one of the Commissioners, his Coachman told him, if he would give him 65l. he would give him a Licence; and he paid the Money; and he had the Figure 589: and the Licence was in the Name of William Medcalf, of St. Paul's Grave, Holbourne; which had the Hands and Seals of Colonel Villers and Mr. Gee; and the Name only of Mr. Overbury, without his Seal; which therefore he was advised was no good Licence: And he went to Colonel Villers' House, in hopes to perfect his Licence, or have his 65l. returned:
A Gentlewoman, whom they called Colonel Villers' Lady, called him into a Room, and asked to see his Licence, and would have run away with it; and, making a Noise, the Footman, and other Servants, fell upon him; and, crying out Murder, one of them stopped his Mouth; which the Coachman of the Swedish Embassador observing, asked them, if they intended to murder the Man: upon which Mr. Villers' Wife repaid him in the very same Money, as he verily believes, which he paid the Coachman; who desired a Pair of Gloves, saying, that he got nothing by the Sale; but sold it for his Master.
Mr. Gee said, As to Richard Hooper, he was recommended to them by the Earl of Pembroke, as his Coachman; but afterwards Mr. Gee confessed he was recommended as his Servant only: And many of the rest recommended by other Gentlemen; but shewed not by whom in particular.
Colonel Villers said, That he granted the Licence to William Medcalf; and that he was his Servant; but he granted it to him in Trust for his Coachman Wm. Smith, who was then at Tinmouth; and he did so, in regard there are many Licences granted to that Name of Smith, left they should grant more than Two Licences to one Man: And that Medcalf had actually assigned it to Wm. Smith: And one of the Committee declared he knew Wm. Medcalf.
And the Commissioners say, They were streightened in Time; and could not perfectly look into the Qualifications; though, for the generality, they preferred those who had kept Coach and Horses for above Two Years past.
That above Seven hundred are licensed, within the Bills of Mortality, by colour of Stage Licences, to drive from London to Tunbridge, and to other Places, with the Words "and elsewhere," in their Licences.
John Hunt saith, That James Mathews, who had a Stage Licence, drove in London, and carried Passengers to the Exchange, and took a Shilling; and said, He did it by virtue of the Words "and elsewhere," in his Licence: And that he was summoned before the Commissioners, and discharged without Punishment.
Hackney Coach Commissioners.
The Word "elsewhere" is inserted in some of the shorter Stage Coaches, as to Tunbridge, and other Places; which was agreed by the Majority of the Commissioners, that the Stage Coaches might set down short, wide, or beyond their usual Stage: But, by colour thereof, they ought not to take up, and set down the same Fare, within the City of London, and weekly Bills of Mortality; for doing of which, James Hunt was by them punished, upon a Second Complaint against him: And these Licences granted but for One Year.
Anne Bates saith, That her Husband is an ancient Coachman: Had Coach and Horses, with a Charge of Children, and a Certificate from several Persons of Quality; petitioned the Commissioners; but was refused a Licence; Mr. Villers telling her, That Licences were to be disposed of to whom he thought fit: And then she applied to Mrs. Lawson, Mr. Gee's Cousin, who first took Five Guineas of her in Part; but returned them to her to save her Oath; then went with her to Mr. Gee, and acquainted him, That her Husband had been an old Coachman, and had then Coach and Horses; Mr. Gee replied, No matter for that, he shall have no Licence upon that Account; but upon the Agreement made with Mrs. Lawson, he said, he would stand by it, if Mr. Killigrew and Mr. Overbury would consent; whose Consents she could not get: And therefore, she afterwards being told; that Mr. Killigrew, one of the Commissioners, was likely to assist her, she met him at Whitehall, where he told her, If she would make him her Friend, he would procure a Licence for her; but said, He must have Five Guineas down, and Five more when she had a Licence; for which she was to give Fifty Pounds more; but had no Licence.
James Heely saith, He was present when Mr. Killigrew repaid the Value of Five Guineas in Silver, to the said Anne Bates; which was about Nine Weeks after she gave the Five Guineas; and about the time the Petition was delivered to the House of Commons.
Anne James saith, That her Husband was an ancient Coachman, and petitioned, and was denied; and then was advised to apply to Madam Pawlet, who had a Chamber over the Commissioners Office; who told her, she had Two or Three Licences to dispose of, and desired to help her to Customers, who would make no Words of it; and promised her to get her a Licence for Six Guineas, which she then gave her, above the Fifty Pounds:
And then Madam Pawlet had her to the Door of the Office, and she saw Mr. Gee, one of the Commissioners there, come to the Door; and asked Mrs. Pawlet, How many Guineas hath the Woman given you? But the Door then being shut upon this Woman, she heard no Answer, or other Woods between them.
Hackney Coach Commissioners.
Mary Piggot saith, That her Husband hath, for above 20 Years past, been a Hackney Coachman, and hath Coaches and Horses of his own; and now hath a great Charge of Children; and was recommended to the Commissioners by the Lord Lisle, and several Justices, and many Gentlemen of Clerkenwell, where they dwelt, petitioned; and, after a Month's daily Attendance, encouraged by Mrs. Pawlet, who had taken 56l. of her to get her a Licence, her Husband at last was refused: But the said Mrs. Pawlet hath not returned great Part of the 56l.; but detaineth the same: And her Husband Henry Piggot, not knowing how to employ his Horses, was forced to hire a Licence, No. 674, of the said Mrs. Pawlet, at the Rate of 8s. 6d. per Week, for One Year; and paid into the Hands of Mrs. Pawlet 22l. 6s.; as appears to the Committee, by the Articles signed and sealed by the said Mrs. Martha Pawlet.
Richard Leighton, an ancient Coachman, applied to Mr. Gee for a Licence; who told him they were all disposed of; but, for 14 or 15 Guineas, he might have one: And saith, That several Licences were afterwards disposed of.
Edward Sumpter is an ancient Coachman, and hath Coach and Horses; petitioned; and denied: Afterwards applied to Mr. Killigrew's Lady; and, at twice, gave her 10 Guineas; for which, had a Promise of a Licence; and had, about a Fortnight after, No. 697, accordingly, paying 50l. for it, besides the 10 Gulneas: And, upon the first Application to her, she said, She must first speak with Mr. Killigrew.
Edward Smith; That Colonel Villers, one of the Commissioners, his Coachman told him, He would procure him a Licence for 12 Guineas; and that he sold it for his Master and Lady; but afterwards, when he came for the Licence, the Coachman said, His Master would not let him have it for that Money.
Mr. Johnson saith, That Mrs. Fitzharris, and Mr. Pawlet, live in the same House, where the Commissioners keep their Office; and that he applied to Mr. Fitzharris, Son of Mrs. Fitzharris, to procure a Licence; who said, He must have 10 Guineas for one; of which Mr. Villers must have Five, and the rest amongst the other Commissioners.
And Fitzharris shewed him a Bond from one Carter to pay 36l. to him, if he procured Three Licences for him: Fitzharris said, He had great Interest with the Commissioners, and could do what he would with them; but he was to have but a small Part of the Profit; and the greatest Part the Commissioners were to have.
William Jones saith, That he being refused a Licence by the Commissioners, he applied to Mrs. Fitzharris, who took Six Guineas of him, and got him a Licence; just before which she returned him his Five Guineas; and, after the Licence had, he paid her 12 Guineas, besides the 50l. paid for the Licence.
William Goodman saith, That he always earned his Livelihood as a Hackney Coachman; and now hath, and for many Years had, a Coach and Horses, a Wife, and several Children; and had the Recommendation of Mr. Justice Tulley, and other Justices of the Peace, and Doctor Burch, with the Churchwardens of the Parish of St. James's:
That he petitioned the Commissioners for a Licence, and was denied: Then he applied to Mr. Killigrew, who promised him a Licence for 60l.; and ordered him to bring the Money to the Rummer in Channel-Row; which he did accordingly; but was not accepted; he being credibly informed, That Licences were afterwards sold for more Money; and afterwards was forced to hire a Licence at Nine Shillings a Week.
Mary Williams; She petitioned the Commissioners for a Licence for her Son; but denied: And then she applied to Mrs. Pawlet, at the House where the Commissioners kept their Office, who told her, That if she would give her Nine Gulneas, she would get a Licence of Mr. Villers: She gave her the Nine Guineas; but, after Eight Days she returned it again; and said, She could not get one: Then she applied to Mr. Killigrew; who said, He would take no Money; But afterwards she agreed with Mrs. Killigrew to get one; and gave her 10 Guineas; and she promised her a Licence, she paying 50l. more for a Fine.
John Miller; That he gave Five Guineas to Madam Pawlet, after he had petitioned, and been denied by the Commissioners; who, procured him a Licence; but told him, That, unless he would give her one Guinea more, she would take away his Licence.
John Tea; That he applied to Madam Pawlet to get him a Licence, hearing she had great Interest with the Commissioners; who, upon Payment to her of Five Guineas, the Receipt whereof he now produced to the Committee, and not denied by her, she promised him a Licence:
John Staley; That he was an ancient Coachman; petitioned; and was refused: After which, Mr. Mackensey, the Commissioners Clerk, told him, He would procure him one for 85l. of which he paid 35l. in Part, for Tho. Read; and 50l. more to Thom. Read: But no Account could be given of Thomas Read; although time was given to shew there was such a Person.
Thomas Pullein hath been a Coachman for 20 Years; and applied to Mrs. Villers; who said, that Mr. Villers' List was full; after which, Mrs. Lawson sent to Mr. Rouse, a Neighbour to Tho. Pullein, to inform him she would help him to a Licence: Then Thomas Pullein came to Mrs. Lawson; who told him, Mr. Gee was her Relation: and therefore could help him for Ten Guineas; but failing, she insisted to have 15 Guineas; and, after many Treaties, she said, She would not under 25 Guineas; which, rather than lose a Licence, after a Month's time spent, he paid her 2 . . in the Presence of Benjamin Littleton; and was to give 50l. more, when he had the Licence; Mrs. Lawson said, She must carry it to the Office; and her Husband, Mr. Lawson, took it, and seemed to go thither with it: But after this Mr. Lawson got a Licence, for which Mr. Pullein paid 50l. But, notwithstanding the 50l. now paid, and the 27l. before, to Mrs. Lawson, he would not part with his Licence till he had 6l. more of Pullen: And saith, That he never received any Money back again; and That Mrs. Lawson told him, she had Two or Three Licences more to dispose of.
They, in general, say, That Mrs. Lawson, Mrs. Pawlet, and all other Persons pretending Interest with them, and taking Monies for Licences; if so they did; yet it was without their Authority or Privity; and that the Money came not to their Use.
Mr. Killigrew saith, There was but Three Licences granted after he was a Commissioner: That he borrowed the Five Guineas of Anne Bates, and honestly repaid it to her; and did not take it as a Bribe: And the hasty Words spoke against Bates he confesses, and begs Pardon of the Committee, it being in their Presence, when she was attending them.
John Davis saith, That as to the 10 Guineas pretended to be given by Edward Sumpter, to Mrs. Killigrew, that Sumpter came to him, and said, He was undone, if he had no Licence; and therefore Davis applied to Mrs. Killigrew, and, by her Interest, got him a Licence; for which he had 10l.; but Mr. Killigrew, nor his Wife, had none of the Money.
Mr. Gee saith, He believes the Women, and other Persons pretending Interest with him, are idle Persons, and made an ill Use of his Name: That he received no Money but for the King's Use, according to the Act; and denies That which Anne James saith: And that he did not ask Mrs. Pawlet how many Guineas she had: And denies other the Facts alledged against him.
Mr. Ashurst saith, That he never took any Money, or signed any Licence for Gain, directly or indirectly; neither did the Witnesses pretend to charge him: And the Petitioner's Counsel said they could not charge him with any thing.
But being asked, if she wrote Letters to any of the Commissioners; and if, at her Request, any Licences were granted? She then confessed, she wrote Letters to Mr. Gee, and Mr. Villers, for Licences; and, at her Request, Licences were granted; and confessed, she had received several Sums to procure Licences: And, as to the Licence she hired to Mr. Piggot, she said, It was for Mr. Justice Tulley: But he, being summoned, disclaimed any Interest in any Licence.
Mrs. Bates saith, That when she was in Treaty with Mrs. Lawson for a Licence, and that Mrs. Lawson told her, there was Device to avoid the new Oath; and told her she must keep the Money, or lay it on a Table, till the Oath taken, and then return it again; or else she could take it from the Table, after the Oath taken; for, says she, your Oath is what you have given, and not what you shall give.
Resolved, That it is the Opinion of this Committee, That the Petitioners, the Hackney Coachmen, have proved the Substance of their Complaint; and are worthy of the Consideration and Relief of this House.
Hackney Coach Commissioners.
Resolved, That it is the Opinion of this Committee, That several of the Commissioners appointed to put in Execution an Act, passed the last Session of this present Parliament, intituled, An Act for the licensing and regulating Hackney Coaches and Stage Coaches, have, by receiving Bribes, and by other undue Means, acted corruptly and arbitrarily, contrary to the Authority and Trust reposed in them by the said Act.
Resolved, That the last of the said Resolutions be re-committed to the said Committee; and that they do distinguish the Commissioners: And they are to meet Tomorrow at Four of the Clock in the Afternoon, in the Speaker's Chamber.
Conference with Lords.
Thames Locks and Weirs.
Ordered, That the Report from the Committee, to whom the Bill for preventing Exactions of Occupiers of Locks and Weirs upon the River of Thames, westward of the City of London; and for ascertaining the Price of Water-carriage upon the said River; was committed; be taken into Consideration upon Friday Morning next.
Preventing Export of Wool.
Ordered, That the Report from the Committee, to whom the Bill for the better preventing the Exportation of Wool, by altering the Penalty; and for the Preservation of the publick Market at Blackwell-hall; and for the Relief of the Workmen employed in the Woollen Manufactures, in Payment of their Wages; was committed; be taken into Consideration To-morrow Sevennight.
Charge of Corruption against a Member declared false.
Resolved, Nemine contradicente, That, upon a full Examination of the several Persons concerned therein, at the Bar of this House, it appears to this House, That the said Information is false, scandalous, and groundless.
Ways and Means.
Resolved, That this House will, To-morrow Morning, resolve itself into a Committee of the whole House, to consider further of Ways and Means for raising the Supply to be granted to his Majesty, for carrying on the War against France with Vigour.
Punishing Mutiny and Desertion.
Ordered, That the Report of the Bill for continuing Two Acts for punishing Officers and Soldiers who shall mutiny, or desert his Majesty's Service; and for punishing false Musters; and for Payment of Quarters; for One Year longer; be made upon Tuesday Morning next.