Journal of the House of Commons: Volume 12, 1697-1699. Originally published by His Majesty's Stationery Office, London, 1803.
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Martis, 2 die Maii;
Undecimo Gulielmi 3tii.
A MESSAGE from the Lords, by Mr. Meredith and Doctor Edisbury.
Cloribus' &c. Nat.
The Lords have agreed to the Amendments, made by this House, to the Bill, intituled, An Act for naturalizing Augustine Cloribus, and others: Also,
They have agreed to the Bill, intituled, An Act for Suppressing of Lotteries, without any Amendments: Also,
They have agreed to the Bill, intituled, An Act for the better Apprehending, Prosecuting, and Punishing, of Felons that commit Burglary, House-breaking, or Robbery in Shops, Warehouses, Coach-houses, or Stables; or that steal Horses; with an Amendment: To which they desire the Concurrence of this House.
And then the Messengers withdrew.
An ingrossed Bill for encouraging the Trade to Newfoundland was read the Third time.
Resolved, That the Bill do pass: And that the Title be, An Act to encourage the Trade to Newfoundland.
Ordered, That Mr. Gwyn do carry the Bill to the Lords, and desire their Concurrence thereunto.
Sir T. Cook's Claim.
A Petition of Sir Thomas Cook Knight, a Member of this House, was presented to the House, and read; setting forth, That he is a Creditor of Sir John Freind, late of London, Knight, attainted and executed for High Treason, for above 3,000 l. and had fully proved the same before the Treasury; and that a Grant was passing for selling the Estate of the said Sir John Freind, for 5,500 l. And praying, That the Petitioner may be relieved, as shall be thought just and reasonable.
Resolved, That the Petition of Sir Thomas Cooke be laid before his Majesty by such Members of this House as are of his Majesty's most Honourable Privy Council: And that they do recommend his Case to his Majesty's Favour.
Ordered, That the Report from the Committee, to whom the Petition of the Soldiers of the Earl of Macclesfield's Regiment was referred, be made To-morrow Morning.
Supply Bill Salt Duties.
An ingrossed Bill for the full and effectual charging the Duties upon Rock-Salt was read the Third time.
An Amendment was proposed to be made, Pr. 10. L. 3 after "Certificate," to insert "having been given, as aforesaid:"
The same was, upon the Question put thereupon, agreed unto by the House; and the Bill amended at the Table accordingly.
Resolved, That the Bill do pass: And that the Title be, An Act for the more full and effectual charging the Duties upon Rock-Salt.
Ordered, That Mr. Cowper do carry the Bill to the Lords, and desire their Concurrence thereunto.
A Petition of Two Colonels, and other Officers, of the Scots Regiments, who served upon the English Establishment in Flanders, during the late War, and since disbanded, was presented to the House, and read; setting forth, That, by the Vote of Saturday last, the Petitioners seem to be excluded from the Half-Pay allowed to the English Forces: And praying, That the said Vote may be explained in Favour of the Petitioners, or that they may be paid the Arrears due to them for their Service, that they may not be under harder Circumstances than any others of their Fellow-Officers.
Ordered, That Leave be given, upon the Report from the Committee of the whole House, to whom the Bill for laying further Duties upon Sweets; and for lessening and settling the Duties as well upon Vinegar, as upon low Wines drawn from certain Materials, and the Duties upon Brandy imported; and for the more easy raising the Duties upon Leather; and for Charging of Cinders; was committed; to offer a Clause for applying a Sum, not exceeding Twenty thousand Pounds, out of the Six hundred thousand Pounds appropriated by the Land-Tax, to be distributed, towards their Clearing, among the Officers of the Scots Regiments disbanded, which were upon the English Establishment, and the Officers belonging to the Three Regiments of Holt, Lillingston, and Russell, which were in the West-Indies, and are disbanded; and for whom no Half-pay is allowed.
A Message from the Lords, by Sir Richard Holford and Mr. Pitt:
Supply Bill; Duty on Paper, &c.
The Lords have agreed to the Bill, intituled, An Act for laying a Duty upon Paper, Parchment, Vellom, and Pasteboard, for the Purposes therein mentioned, with an Amendment: To which they desire the Concurrence of this House.
And then the Messengers withdrew.
Ordered, That the said Message be taken into Consideration To-morrow Morning.
Frauds by Agents of Packet-boats.
The House, according to Order, took into Consideration the Report from the Committee, to whom the Petition of John Russell Gentleman, relating to Mr. Daniel Gwyn, Agent for managing the Spanish Pacquet-boats, at Falmouth, was referred:
And the same, together with the Resolutions of the Committee thereupon, were read; and are as follow; viz
That the Committee do find, That the Petitioners exhibited Nine several Articles of Complaint against Mr. Daniel Gwyn, who is Agent for managing both the Spanish Pacquet-boats at Falmouth; viz. the Spanish Alliance and Spanish Expedition; Collector of the Customs and Excise; and also Muster-master or Clerk of the Cheque:
That the First Article was charging Mr. Gwyn with false Musters:
To prove which;
Thomas Slade, Purser of the Expedition, said, That he hath been Purser near Eight Years; and Mr. Gwyn hath charged Men on the Pay-Books that have not been mustered; viz. Christopher Cocke; who went not above Two or Three Voyages, yet he stands charged upon the Pay-book for about Twenty-five Months: Cornish was aboard but about Five Months, and stands charged for Ten Months in the Pay-Book: John Row was entered in the Book before he was mustered: And Nicolas Saunders, and Caleb Shepherd, were constantly mustered, by Mr. Gwyn's Order, on both Pacquets, for about Eight Years, and never went a Voyage in either: And it has been the constant Practice of Mr. Gwyn to make false Musters, ever since Slade has been in the Employ; but he cannot be positive as to other particular Persons:
That from the 29th of December 1694, to the 30th of November 1696, being Twenty-five King's Months, the Pay-Books are not free of Two false Musters; and, for several Months of the said time, are charged with Cock, Cornish, and Row, besides Shepherd and Saunders:
That, he having made up the Pay-Books, Mr. Gwyn hath often ordered him to put in Mens Names that have not been on the Muster-Books; and when he has not left room to insert such Names, Mr. Gwyn hath been angry, and made him make new Pay-Books before he would pay the Men:
That, at the End of some Pay-Days, Mr. Gwyn would pretend he had lost Money, by mis-telling; and hath ordered Slade to set down the same, under the Denomination of Ship-Debts, sometimes more, sometimes less:
That he had a Brother, a Servant, on board the Expedition, and Mr. Gwyn received his Pay, and never allowed Slade any thing, though he signed the Pay-Book; and his Brother stands charged for Nine Months therein.
Mr. Corker, Merchant, said, He was present when Mr. Gwyn would have had Slade set down one Shipman in the Muster-Book: He refused so to do, because there was no such Person, saying, He would set down Cheatman, if he pleased; for that it was a Cheat to the King: This was when Mr. Avent, Secretary to the Post-Office, was sent to Falmouth, to examine the Matters now complained on.
Mr. Slade said, That, he leaving his Muster-Book on Mr. Gwyn's Table, in his Office, he could never have it again; though he several times demanded it of Mr. Gwyn:
That, to answer the First Article;
Mr. Gwyn denied the Matter of false Musters; but said, That, about the time of the Charge, several Persons went aboard the Expedition and Alliance, without his Order, and came for their Pay; but he refused to pay them, being above the Ships Complement; telling the Captains, That if they would agree to keep one Man short of the Complement, he would distribute that Man's Pay, as they should agree, for the Service and Credit of the Pacquets, and no Prejudice to the King; which was to pay to Widows, and wounded Men, not within the Methods of the Navy; and to make good to himself Loss by mis-telling Money, and other Contingencies, of which he made no Advantage, otherwise than by making good Loss, by mis-telling Money:
That 90 Men are allowed for the Expedition, besides Shepherd and Saunders; and but 90 paid for: And says, He has all along saved Four Mens Pay for the Allowance; viz. Two upon each Boat, by inserting Shepherd and Saunders in the Pay Books; and, besides the Number paid, there was always from Two to Four, or more, Volunteers, who have served for their Victuals only; for one of which Cock's Name has always been set down in the Pay-Book; and, for about Ten Months, another Person's Name, who served on board about Nine Months; which has been applied to the Contingencies of the Ship: An Account of which he produced for Twenty Months, since the said Ten Months; but kept no Account before:
That Cornish and Cock were the Two Persons that were entered in the Pay-Book, to answer Contingencies, and were never mustered:
That John Row was an effective Man, always mustered; and his Pay answered to Spry, by Agreement of Rowe's Father:
That Saunders and Shepherd were always mustered, though they did not go the Voyages; which was done by the Knowlege of the Commissioners of the Post-Office, in regard he had no Salary for a Clerk; for which Purpose Saunders served, and Mr. Gwyn received his Pay; but Shepherd was Boatswain of the King's Hulk, and received his own Pay; and neither of them had any Allowance for Provisions:
That the said Commissioners of the Post-Office admitted the Matter, as to Saunders and Shepherd:
That he believes, the Practices for Contingencies began about 1694, without any Directions from the Postmasters-General; but one Waters, of the Alliance, having disabled himself by a Fall on board, not in Fight, and so without the Rules of the Navy, applied to the Postmasters for some Allowance; and Mr. Gwyn being in Town, was sent for; who then told Sir Robert Cotton of the said Practice; and he seemed to approve of it, and ordered him to pay Waters 6 l. odd Money of it; which he did accordingly.
Sir Robert Cotton remembers, That Waters applied to him; and thought he deserved some Consideration; and though he was not within the Rules of the Navy, yet they might have found out some other Way to give Waters something:
But says, He does not remember, That Mr. Gwyn told him of any Pay applied for Contingencies; nor ever heard of any such Practice till after the Complaint against Mr. Gwyn; nor ever ordered any Disposition of that Money.
Captain Clyes, Commander of the Expedition, said, That the Complement of the New Expedition was Ninety Men, and generally mustered Eighty-seven and Eightyeight effective Men, besides Saunders and Shepherd; and many times they have had on board Seven or Eight Volunteers, who went to learn Experience, for their Victuals, and in Hopes to enter into Pay upon a Vacancy; and sometimes Mr. Gwyn has had 20s. for a Voyage for some of them; and always had more than their Complement on board:
That he cannot be positive, whether or no Row was mustered; but that Spry received his Pay, by Agreement with Row his Father:
John Spry said, He received about 15 or 16 l. for Rowe's Pay, by Agreement with his Father.
Mr. Pearse said, That Captain Clyes complained of Mr. Gwyn's Stop of Pay for Contingencies; have made Eleven false Musters.
Captain Clyes said, He does not remember, that he complained of false Musters; but said, That there were Four Persons mustered and charged on the Pay-Books of the Expedition, that were not aboard; viz. Cock, Saunders, Shepherd, and Rowe: But believes Cornish was not mustered; and that Cock was reckoned for the dead Man; and One or Two Mens Pay, that were not on board, applied for Contingencies:
That he was well satisfied, when he knew how the Contingent Money was applied; some of which he disposed of, himself, to Widows, and otherwise, before any Complaint was made of it: That he had no Advantage by it, nor Mr. Gwyn, as he believes.
Frauds by Agents of Packet-boats.
Mr. Rogers said, That he assisted Mr. Gwyn generally at the Pay-Table; and several times has heard Mr. Gwyn and the Captain agree, and declare, how the Money for Contingencies should be disposed; which was laid by itself on the Table, and disposed accordingly, as he believes: That sometimes it was paid to such that stood short on the Pay-books; sometimes Part to make good Loss of Money to Mr. Gwyn, by mistelling, and for other Uses; but how much, or to whom disposed, he cannot remember; for that he kept no Account; but has received 5s. a time for his Attendance, out of it.
Caleb Shepherd said, That he knows not how long the Contingent-Money has been stopped; but there was always more Men on board than the Complement, to answer the Want of those not present, who went for their Victuals only, in Hopes to get into the Paquet's Pay, when a Vacancy should happen.
The Second Article; Importing Salt without paying any Custom, or Excise:
To prove this;
Mr. Slade said, That Captain Clyes bought Salt in Spain, which was sent to Mr. Gwyn's Cellar; for which he made no Entry, nor paid any Duty, till after Complaint was made; and the said Salt was brought privately in empty Provision-Casks; and sometimes Mr. Gwyn paid the Captain the prime Cost; and sometimes discounted it: And delivered in an Account of the Particulars, amounting to Seven Weigh and one Quarter: And that other Parcels were brought in the Expedition, of which he kept no Account; and believes as much was brought over in the Alliance:
That he has also bought Salt in Spain, by Mr. Gwyn's Order, for which he has repaid him: And that Mr. Gwyn always said, Twas for the Use of the Paquets, and to save Charges to the Post-Office: But he believes no more was brought than the Paquets might use.
Mr. Corker said, That, he hearing Mr. Gwyn had imported Salt, without Entry, or paying Duty, he told him, It was contrary to his Oath, and a Breach of Trust, and against Law; and that, if nobody else would complain, he would:
That, soon after, an Entry of Salt was made by Mr. Gwyn, or his Servant, as he takes it, about the Latterend of June last:
And that, in April or May 1697, he sold Mr. Gwyn 24 Winchester Bushels of Salt, at 5s. 6d. per Bushel, which is 13s. and 9d. per Bushel of 20 Gallons, which had paid all Duties; and at that time Mr. Gwyn charges the King at 18s. per Bushel; and Mr. Gwyn might have had more at the same Rate of 13s. and 9d. per Bushel, if he would.
That to answer the Second Article;
Mr. Gwyn said, That he never imported Salt without Entry; but what was imported by Captain Clies and Slade was for the Use of the Paquets, in small Parcels, which were entered the 23d of June last, but ordered to be done a Month before: The Entry was for Four Weigh One Quarter:
That, an Officer of the Customs telling him he had omitted to make an Entry of Salt, he applied to the Commissioners of the Customs for their Directions; and they ordered him, on the 23d of May last, to pay the Duties: Which he did accordingly:
That he was sick about Three Months; and before the Officer told of the Omission, did not know but that it had been entered while he was sick; and had Leave to make an Entry before he heard of Slade's Complaint.
Third Article; Frauds in the Victualling:
Tho. Slade said, That Mr. Gwyn always took the Suet from the Hind-Quarters of the Beef; and the Head, Feet, and Lard, of the Hogs (which were all weighed, and charged to the King) and converted to his own Use:
That he observed, in receiving of the Pork, Mr. Gwyn generally charged about a Third more in Weight than the Pork came to, at Two Pound a Piece, one with another; particularly about Five or Six Years ago, in 1693, before the old Expedition went to London, as he believes, he gave a Receipt for about Eleven hundred Weight of Pork, and received but 300 Pieces: That, he refusing to sign the Receipt, Mr. Gwyn said, He would not be called to an Account for it:
Frauds by Agents of Packet-boats.
That, on the 18th of August 1694, he received but 448 Pieces of Pork, at Two Pound a Piece, making Eight hundred Weight; and Mr. Gwyn has charged Eleven hundred and Fourteen Pounds; for which Slade's Receipt was produced:
27th October 1694, Slade received but 256 Pieces of Pork, which at Two Pound a Piece, makes but 4 C. 2 qrs. 8 lb. and Mr. Gwyn has charged to the King Six hundred and Sixteen Pounds; for which also Mr. Slade's Receipt was produced:
That he has often desired, That he might receive the Pork by Weight; but Mr. Gwyn always denied it.
That it appeared to the Committee, by the Accounts of Mr. Corker, with other Merchants, and Captain Penington, and Mr. Gwyn's Accounts with the Post-Office, compared together, That Mr. Gwyn has charged more to the King for Provisions, than they paid at the same time; viz. in 1696, and 1697;
For butter, 10, 12, and 20 s. per Hundred Weight:
For Beef, 3, 4, and 5, per Hundred Weight:
For Pork, 4, and 5, per Hundred Weight:
For Salt-Duty, paid 4, and 7, per Bushel:
And for Cordage, 6, per Hundred:
For Bread, 1, 2, 3, 4, and 6, and 6d. per Hundred.
Mr. Slade said, That, in 1696, Mr. Gwyn charged, to the King, Butter at 50s. to 56s. per Hundred Weight; and that he saw an Account of 33 C. 1 qr. 16lb. bought at Marazon, by Mr. Gwyn, for the Use of the Paquets, at 32s. 8d. per Hundred Weight, the same Year; and that he bought Butter, the same Year, at the same Place, at that Rate:
That, to answer the Third Article;
Mr. Gwyn said, He claimed the Suet of the Beef, and the Head, Feet, and Lard, of the Hogs, as his Perquisite; which may be about an 8th or 10th Part of the Weight of the Hogs; and about a 15 or 16th Part of the Value of the Hogs; which the Postmasters have allowed of, in regard to the Smallness of his Salary, which is but 70 l. a Year; whereas other Agents for the Paquets have 150 l. and 180 l. per Annum Salary, besides Perquisites: and his Business is more than both of them: That the said Perquisites are computed at about 30 l. per Annum:
Denies the Charge of Slade, as to the 300 Pieces of Pork; for that there was no such particular Quantity delivered to Slade; nor does any such Particular appear by the Vouchers, to which he referred himself; but the Voucher that comes nearest to the Time, and Quantity of Pork, mentioned by Slade, is a Receipt, signed by him, dated the 14th of March 1692, for 12 C. 3 qrs. of Pork, delivered in Two Puncheons, being Two Months Provisions, with other Provisions answerable thereto, in one entire Bill, without any Alteration, or Addition:
Denies that Slade ever demanded to receive the Pork by Weight; nor could it be expected, that Mr. Gwin should deliver out the same Weight he bought, because the Perquisites aforesaid were taken out of it:
That as to Butter, He buys it at Wales, with his Money, and runs the Risque of Carriage by Water; that several Parcels have been cast away, whereby he has lost about 70 l.; which Losses being made good, he has not charged Butter at 40s. 6d. per Hundred Weight:
That, at Marazion, he has bought Butter from 3½d. to 4d. per Pound; and the Casks and Carriage costs him Three Farthings more per Pound; which is above 40s. per Hundred Weight:
That, as to other Provisions alleged by the Petitioners to be over-charged, he has charged no more than what he really paid; as appears upon his Vouchers received from the Post-Office: And said, That there is a great Difference in the Price of Provisions; and that he always bought the best he could for the King's Service.
Captain Clies said, That, about Two or Three Years ago (but cannot be positive to the Time), he heard Slade complain, That he had given Mr. Gwyn a Receipt for 11 C. Weight of Pork, when he received but 300 Pieces; and, the Sailors murmuring about the Weight of the Pieces, he weighed the Beef and Pork, which came near to the King's Allowance; and the Sailors never wanted a Meal in a Voyage:
Does not know, or believe, That Two Months Provision were put on board at once; nor that they ever received such a Quantity of Pork at one time, on the old Expedition, as 15 C. Weight (for which a Voucher was produced); but it might be at several times, and so a general Receipt given for the whole:
That usually, when the Paquet is ready to go out, they take a Month's Provision on board; and if Windbound, or drove back again, take in Recruits to make up what is on board, a Month's Provision.
Caleb Shepherd said, That he buys the Pork, at the Market, of divers Persons, without taking a Receipt; and, in 1696, he paid from 2¼d. to 3d. per Pound; and believes Mr. Gwyn charged no more to the King than he paid:
That he never heard Slade ask to receive the Pork by Weight:
That he believes all the Pork, mentioned in the Receipt of Slade's, of the 14th of March 1692, was put on board at one time; and Slade signs one entire Bill for the several Kinds of Provisions; and when any Recruits were put on board, they were underwritten, and never any Figures altered in the Voucher:
And said, That Slayde never took any Account but what he had from Shepherd's Books.
To this Answer.
Mr. Slade replied, That the 12C. 3qrs. of Pork, and the rest of the Provisions, mentioned in that Bill, were not put on board at one time, but at several times; and then gave One general Account for the Whole, taking up the first Bill, and giving a new one, if the Figures of the First Bill could not conveniently be altered, or that there was not room to add the Recruits at the Foot thereof:
That usually, when he took in Recruits, he took back the first Bills, and gave new Bills, adding the Recruits of each kind to the Provision first received; and referred to the Vouchers:
That it appeared, by the Vouchers, That the Figures on several Bills had been altered, but no addition for the Recruits at the Foot of any of the Bills:
Slade also said, That he was generally at the Weighing of the Beef, and the Bread; and took the particular Weights thereof from the several Draughts, and not from Shepherd's Book or Accounts, as he alleged.
The Fourth Article was, Mismanagement in the Sails:
To prove which;
Tho. Slade said, That he has heard Captain Clies say, The Cast-Sails of the Paquet were appraised at 4½d. and 5d. per Yard, and sold to Captain Pennington at 12, 14, and 16d. per Yard, as he said; and believes those that were of Holland's Duck, were worth 12d. per Yard; and that he would have given that Price for it; but was never present when any of the Sails were sold, or appraised.
Pearse said, That the Cast-Sails were sold cheap to Captain Pennington, at the Rate aforesaid, as he told him; and that Pearse sold him worse for 9d. or 10d. per Yard.
Captain Pennington said, That, in 1696, he bought of one Wills, a Sail-maker, about 700 Yards of CastSails of the Paquet, as Wills told him, from 12d. to 16d. per Yard; and Captain Strange bought some of them also, at the same time, at 16d. or 17d. a Yard, as Strange told him:
That he has since been at Cales and Malaga with those Sails, and used no other; and bought them because he thought them a Penyworth: But said, The Sails were altered by the Sail-maker; the Charge whereof might come to about 7 or 8 l.
That, to answer the Fourth Article;
Mr. Gwyn said, That the Postmasters ordered, That the Captains of the Paquets should view and appraise the Cast-Sails; which they always did: and he sold them as they were appraised, without any Advantage to himself; and rought the Money to the King's Account; but did not produce the said Order, being mislaid, as he said.
The Postmasters said, That they believed they did give Directions for the Captains to view and appraise the CastSails; and that they could not find the said Order, through the Carelessness of their former Servant, who had the Charge of it.
Captain Clies said, That he believes the Cast-Sails of the Paquets were worn as much as they ought for the Service; and that they were appraised for as much as they were worth; that some Part of them was not worth above 2d. or 3d. a Yard, other Part worth 8d. a Yard; but they were sold together; and he had no Advantage by them.
Perkins, Sail-maker, said, That he bought the CastSails of the Paquets, at the Rates they were appraised by the Captains, without any Advantage to Mr. Gwyn that he knows of; that he made Alterations, and sold Part of the Sails to several Persons, at several times; and sometimes got and sometimes lost; and believes, that if they had been put to publick Sale, he should have given more than he did, rather than another should have had them.
That Mr. Gwyn, being asked, Why he did not expose the Sails to a publick Sale:
Answered, That he pursued his Directions, thinking it his safest Way.
Perkins further said, That Two-thirds of the Sails that Captain Pennington bought were Prize-Sails, and not of the Paquets, to the best of his Remembrance; and that he had Five new Sails.
Captain Pennington, replying, said, That William Wills, Perkins's Partner, told him, That all the Sails he bought, belonged to the Paquets; and that those so sold to Captain Strange were so too:
That he is sure they were of English Make; and that he had no new Sails for his Ship, but had for his Boat:
And produced a Receipt, under Perkins's Hand, for 84 l. for old Sails; and another Receipt, of Two Pounds, for new Sails for his Boat.
The Fifth Article; Extorting Money from the Sailors, and others:
Edward Pearse said, That, about Seven Years ago, he served the Paquets with Beer, at the same Rate he sold to other Persons, amounting to 36 l.; and was sent for on a Pay-Day, to receive his Money; but Mr. Gwyn would not pay him without a Deduction of 36 s. for Poundage: Upon which, he told Mr. Gwyn, That he would serve him no more at that Rate, nor has done since; but gave a Receipt for the whole 36 l. though he received but 34 l. 4 s. and others, that were then paid, also allowed 12d. in the Pound for what they received: That if he had known Mr. Gwyn would have expected Poundage of him, he should have made his Bill accordingly:
And said, That Mr. Gwyn has since justified his taking Poundage, as his Perquisite, before the Commissioners of the Post-Office, at London:
That Daniel Toop, a Rope-maker, told Captain Pennington, He would sell him Cordage 2s. per C. Weight cheaper than he would to Mr. Gwynne, by reason of his Poundage.
Will. Lee said, That, above Five Years ago, he served the Paquets with Beer, for Two Years; and received his Money quarterly, with a Deduction of 12d. in the Pound stopped by Mr. Gwyn for Poundage; who also took Poundage of others, as they said; but cannot remember who they were.
Mr. Corker said, That, about March last, he bought of one Badcocke, a Butcher, Beef, for Nine Months Provisions for a Voyage to Newfoundland, at 20s. per C. Weight; and, when he paid Badcock, he asked him, Why he would not allow him Poundage, as well as Mr. Gwyn? To which he answered, That he charged Beef, at the same time, to Mr. Gwyn at 23 s. a C. Weight, because of his Poundage.
Frauds by Agent of Packet-boats.
Geo. Robertson, Surgeon, said, That he has received several Sums of Money from Mr. Gwyn, for Sick Quarters, for which Mr. Gwyn took 12 d. in the Pound, when he paid in old Money of the King's: but if he paid in new Money, which he said was his own, then he had 12 d. more allowed: That he has made both those Allowances, and given Receipts for the whole; and that some People have murmured, because of the Poundage, and afterwards denied it.
Thomas Chapman said, That, he being sick, and quartered with Thomasin Kempthorne for Ten Weeks, at 7s. per Week, the King's Allowance; and his Landlady going to receive her Money; Mr. Gwyn stopped 10s. out of 3 l. 10 s. as she told Chapman, and said, She would not keep him for his Allowance: Upon which he promised to make her Satisfaction, and afterwards gave her to the Value of 6 or 7 s. worth of Silk.
Thomas Slade said, That he being sick twice or thrice, had 12 d. out of 14s. and about 18 d. out of 17 s. stopped by Mr. Gwyn:
That in October 1697, about 30 Sailors of the new Expedition were discharged, and paid in Spanish Pistoles, at 17 s. 6 d. apiece, some of which wanted Weight; and Mr. Gwyn would not change them in Silver for more than 17 s. apiece, without weighing.
That, at that time, he received Twenty Pistoles of Mr. Gwyn, for Richard James, all of them wanting Weight, among which were Doubloons that wanted 2s. and 2 s. 6 d. of Weight; the whole Loss, by exchanging the Gold, came to 12 s.; and most of the Sailors complained of the Payment in Spanish Gold.
Thomas Chapman said, That, about the 13th of December 1697, he was discharged, and received of Mr. Gwyn, for Pay due for his Service on board the Expedition, 36 Spanish Pistoles, at 17 s. and 6 d. apiece; all of which wanted Weight, some 6 d. others 2 or 3 s.; and he lost about 50 s. by the disposing of them for Goods at London, where they were weighed: That Mr. Gwyn said, He would not pay in Silver; but that he did not ask that the Gold should be weighed, for fear he should not receive any; because others, that had complained, were forced to wait Mr. Gwyn's Leisure for their Pay:
That Nine others were discharged, and paid, when he was; who all said, Their Gold wanted of Weight; and a general Complaint was made by them, as well as of about Thirty others that were discharged, and paid in Spanish Gold, the Pay-Day before:
That, before the said time, he received of Mr. Gwyn a Double-Doubloon, that wanted 13 s. of Weight; and Mr. Gwyn afterwards refused to change it.
That, to answer the Fifth Article;
Mr. Gwyn said, That Poundage for Sick-Quarters is a Perquisite to his Employment:
Does not remember he received 36s. of Pearse, as Poundage; but he has Pears's Receipt for 36 l.; and thinks his Word ought not to be credited against his own Hand:
Does not remember, or believe, That he ever had Poundage of Lee, or that he ever paid him any Money; but that, if any was paid, it was to his Wife, without Poundage.
Lee said, That Mr. Gwyn has paid Money both to him, and his Wife; who told him, Mr. Gwyn stopped Poundage.
Mr. Gwyn said, That he never had Poundage of Toop for Cordage, nor of any other Person, except for SickQuarters; but where he has lent Money, he has had Poundage: That there is a Difference in the Price of Cordage; and the King has the best he can get for the Paquets:
That, as to the Discourse between Mr. Corker and the Butcher, Badcock complained, That Mr. Corker agreed for Beef at 20s. a C. about Three Months before the time he delivered it, being obliged to his First Bargain by Mr. Corker; and about the time of Agreement, has charged no more to the King than what Mr. Corker paid.
Mr. Fortescue affirmed, That Badcock told him something to the same Purpose:
Frauds by Agent of Packet-boats.
That, as to the Pistoles;
Mr. Gwyn said, That when Mr. Avent was in the Country, to examine Complaints, the Sailors were so far from complaining of the Payment in Gold, that there were but Two in both Paquets that said, They lost Money by Exchange of the Pistoles: And does not remember that the Sailors asked to receive the Pistoles by Weight; but most of them got 3d. and 6d. apiece by the Exchange, for that they went, at that time, at 18s. apiece at London; and he could have put them off so there:
That he had not Money enough of the King's in his Hands to pay the Men at the time Slade complains of, which he told them; and that he had 600 Pistoles of his own; which he would advance, if they were willing to receive them at 17s. 6d.: To which they agreed; and he accordingly advanced, without any Reward:
That, about that time, there was about 300 Pistoles belonging to the Prize-Office, which the Postmasters ordered him to take up, at 17s. and 6d. apiece; which he did; and with 100 more, that he had taken for Exchange, and the said 600, he paid the Seamen; and the light Gold was called out from the rest, and paid Captain Clies, by Weight, that the Seamen might not complain:
That he bought the 600 Pistoles by the Ounce-weight, with his own Money, in order to make an Advantage thereby, but not on purpose to pay the Paquets; which were about 1,700 l. in his Debt, without including Debts to Tradesmen.
Sir Thomas Frankland said, Mr. Gwyn's Accounts were regularly made up Quarterly, or Half-yearly, to Ladyday 1698, and the Office is generally in his Debt.
Captain Clyes said, That Mr. Gwyn took out about 30 l. worth of the light Gold from the rest, and paid it him by the Ounce-weight, for his own Use, at the Pay-Table, because the Sailors should not complain of Lightness, as Mr. Gwyn said; and that he put off some of the light Pistoles by Tale, at 17s. and 6d. apiece, mixed with other Gold of his own, that he had before:
That several of the Men that were paid, said, They lost 6d. apiece by the Change of the Pistoles; but has heard, that those that bought Goods, put them off at 18s. apiece: That a little before the Pay-Day, the Seamen would have been glad to have received Pistoles at 20s. apiece, there being about 25 Months due to them; and some of them offered to sell their Pay for 15s. in the Pound.
Mr. Rogers said, That the Men said, That they would rather receive Pistoles at 18s. apiece then stay for their Money; and most that received made 18s. apiece of them; and believes Mr. Gwyn changed to some at 17s. apiece for Silver.
That the rest of the said Nine Articles, exhibited by the Petitioners, being foreign to the Petition, the Committee did not think fit to trouble the House with the Examination of them.
And that, upon the whole Matter aforesaid, the Committee came to the Resolutions following; viz.
Resolved, That it is the Opinion of this Committee, That Mr. Daniel Gwyn, Agent for the Spanish Expedition and Spanish Alliance Paquet-Boats, hath been guilty of false Musters on the said Paquets, according to the Allegations of the Petition.
Resolved, That it is the Opinion of this Committee, That the said Mr. Gwyn, being Agent for the said Paquets, and Collector of the Customs and Excise, hath frequently imported divers Quantities of Salt on board the said Paquets, without paying any Customs, or Excise; and charged the same to the King, as if he had paid the Duties.
Resolved, That it is the Opinion of this Committee, That the said Mr. Gwyn hath been guilty of divers notorious Frauds in Victualing the said Paquets.
Resolved, That it is the Opinion of this Committee, That the said Mr. Gwyn hath been guilty of divers Extortions from the Sailors, and others, as alleged in the Petition.
The said Resolutions, being severally read a Second time, were, upon the Question severally put thereupon, agreed unto by the House.
Resolved, That it is the Opinion of this House, That the said Daniel Gwyn, for the said Offences mentioned in the said Report, is not fit to be continued, or employed, in any Place under the Government.
Ordered, That Mr. Attorney-General do prosecute the said Daniel Gwyn for the said Offences.
Supply Bill; Duties on Sweets.
Ordered, That Leave be given, upon the Report from the Committee of the whole House, to whom the Bill for laying further Duties upon Sweets; and for lessening and settling the Duties as well upon Vinegar, as upon low Wines drawn from certain Materials, and the Duties upon Brandy imported; and for the more easy raising the Duties upon Leather; and for Charging of Cinders; was committed; to offer a Clause for the Importation of Cowries.
Mr. Cowper, according to Order, reported, from the said Committee, the Amendments made by them to the said Bill; which he read in his Place; and afterwards delivered in at the Clerk's Table: Where the same were once read throughout; and then a Second time, one by one; and, upon the Question severally put thereupon, except Clause K. with some Amendments to some of them, agreed unto by the House.
Clause K being read a Second time, being, That * * * *
An Amendment was proposed to be made thereunto, by leaving out "Fourth," and inserting "Fifth," in the stead thereof:
And the Question being put, That "Fourth" stand Part of the said Clause;
The House divided.
The Noes go forth.
|Tellers for the Yeas,||
|Tellers for the Noes,||
Sir Jo. Bolls,
So it was resolved in the Affirmative.
A Clause was offered to the House, to be added to the Bill, That it shall be lawful for any of his Majesty's Subjects to import from Holland, or any other Place of Europe, to the Port of London, any Quantity of Cowries, paying usual Customs for the same:
And the same was read the First time:
And the Question being put, That the Clause be read a Second time;
The House divided.
The Yeas go forth.
So it passed in the Negative.
Another Clause was offered to the House, to be added to the Bill, That * * * *
And the same was twice read; and, upon the Question put thereupon, agreed unto by the House, to be made Part of the Bill.
Another Clause was offered to the House to be added to the Bill, That * * * *
And the same was twice read; and, upon the Question put thereupon, agreed unto by the House to be made Part of the Bill.
Another Clause was offered to be added to the Bill, with Blanks, That * * * *
And the Clause was twice read; and the Blanks filled up:
And then the Clause was agreed unto by the House to be made Part of the Bill.
And other Amendments were made by the House to the Bill.
Ordered, That the Bill, with the Amendments, be ingrossed.
Needwood Forest Rights.
Ordered, That the Report from the Committee, to whom the Petition of the Gentlemen, Freeholders, and other Inhabitants, who have a Right of Estovers, and Common, in the Forest, or Chace, of Needwood, in the County of Stafford, Parcel of the Duchy of Lancaster, was referred, be made upon Thursday Morning next, at Eleven a Clock.
Ordered, That the Report from the Conference with the Lords Yesterday be taken into Consideration tomorrow Morning.
And then the House adjourned till To-morrow Morning, Eight a Clock.