House of Commons Journal Volume 2: 11 March 1641

Pages 101-102

Journal of the House of Commons: Volume 2, 1640-1643. Originally published by His Majesty's Stationery Office, London, 1802.

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Die Jovis, 11 Martii, 1640.



ORDERED, That Mr. Lisle, Mr. Hungerford, and Mr. Hoyle, be added to the Committee for the Star-chamber.

Holsteyn's Nat.

2da vice lecta est Billa, An Act for the Naturalizing of Daniel Holsteyn, of Pomerland Gent. upon Question, committed unto the Committee for Peter Heren, Marolois, and De Vischer: And the Knights and Burgesses of Worcester and Worcestershire, are added to this Committee.

Beckz's Nat.

2da vice lecta est Billa, An Act for the Naturalizing of John Beckz Gent. upon Question, committed unto the Committee for Heren Marolois, &c.

Trials by Battaile.

2da vice lecta est Billa, An Act to abolish all Trials by Battaile; upon Question, committed unto Sir H. Anderson, Sir Gilbert Gerard, Sir Walth. Erle, Sir Arth. Haselrig, Sir Tho. Barrington, Mr. Jane, Sir Guy Palmes, Sir Jo. Hotham, Mr. Ashburneham, Lord Fairefax, Mr. Upton, Sir Wm. Strickland, Mr. Cage, Sir Wm. Massam, Sir Jo. Holland, Mr. Reignolds, Mr. Weston, Mr. Selden, Mr. Dutton, Sir Edw. Deering, Sir Dudley North, Mr. Lisle, Sir Tho. Hutchinson, Mr. Sutton, Mr. Hide, Mr. Glyn, Mr. Rolles, Mr. Law. Whitaker, Sir Ra. Varney, Sir Geo. Dallston, Mr. Fountaine, Sir Edm. Vowell, Sir Robert Crane, Mr. Trenchard, Mr. Catlyn, Mr. Noell, Mr. Strode, Sir Humfrey Tufton;

This Committee is to meet on Monday next in the Afternoon, at Two of Clock, in the Inner Star-chamber.

Michaelmas Term.

The Bill for the Abbreviation of Michaelmas Term, returned from the Committee without any Alterations or Amendments, was, upon the Question, ordered to be ingrossed.

Cosins', &c. Impeachment.

The Articles ingrossed of Impeachment against Doctor Cosins and others, was read.

Resolved, upon the Question, That this Title, these Articles, and Conclusion of these Articles, thus ingrossed, and now read, shall be the Articles of the Commons Declaration and Impeachment of Dr. Cosins and others, to be transferred to the Lords, whereby they are impeached of divers Crimes and Misdemeanours.

Ordered, That Mr. Rowse go up with these Articles to the Lords.

Trial of E. of Straford.

Mr. Whitlock reports from the free Conference concerning the Trial of the Earl of Straford;

"That the Lord Privy Seal began with this Introduction, that, this Parliament, both Houses have had often Conferences, and to good Purpose, which had preserved true Intelligence between both Houses:"

"That, at the last free Conference, their Lordships did receive, from this House, certain Propositions concerning the Trial of the Earl of Straford, which we ourselves called Circumstances."

1. Concerning Place.

2. Persons.

3. Managing of the Evidence.

4. Use of Counsel.

"He was pleased to remember the Words of that Proposition, as they were delivered unto them, and told us, these were the Circumstances."

He said their Lordships did desire, Incedere & sedere in antiquis Viis; that Circumstances were Servants to Execution, and might be altered; and if they should change from the House in Possession to the Chambre Blanche, or the Court of Requests, upon Survey of it by skilful Men, they were informed the Floor of it is so weak, that it might be very dangerous for so great a Resort to be in together at the Trial; therefore left that to our farther Consideration: The Lords thought of this, that the Bar in their House might be removed higher, and the Room there made larger; and That, being scaffolded, might be of Capacity sufficient to receive the Members of this House: This he did only propound, and said the Bishops did desire to be absent at this Trial; so there would be more Room; for the Earls would sit in their Places."

"Next, That their Lordships did desire to understand, whether we meant to be there as a House, which they thought we did; or as singular Members of the House."

"3. His Lordship was pleased to tell us, they desired an Exposition of the Word, "Managing of Evidence;" whether we intended a Marshalling and Applying of the Proof."

"4. That the Lords did desire, concerning the Place and Persons, to know how they have been admitted in former Times, that they might be fortified by Precedents for Place and Persons."

"And for Counsel, their Lordships are careful not to admit of more than is according to the Law of this Kingdom; and thereupon their Lordships have made this Resolution:" "That the Earl of Straford, in Matters of "mere Fact, shall not make use of Counsel; but in Mat"ter of Law he shall: And if any Doubt ariseth, what "is Matter of Law, and what is Matter of Fact, the "Lords do reserve the Judgment hereof to themselves."

"This came by Intimation of ours, that we did intend to manage the Evidence; and at a Conference we explained ourselves; we did not expect they would allow him any Counsel at the Giving of Evidence."

"After this he was pleased to tell us, that he had not forgot another Thing, though he omitted it; that he that delivered the Proposition at the Message, used Words to this Purpose; "That this House did hold it necessary and fit, that all the Members of the House might be present at the Trial; to the End every one might satisfy his own Conscience, in the Giving of their Vote to demand Judgment."

"Whereupon I explained myself, what the Words were I spoke; and he said, the Lords desired an Explanation, what we do mean "by Giving of our Vote to demand Judgement."

"Upon this, we thought it not fit to make an Explanation, till we had acquainted the House with it."

Ordered, That the whole Matter of the Report now made, of the free Conference with the Lords, concerning the Trial of the Earl of Straford, be referred to the Committee for the Earl of Straford, to search and consider of Precedents, and to prepare Reasons, and to present them to the House To-morrow Morning; and they are to meet this Afternoon, at Two of Clock, in the Treasury-chamber.

St. Gregorie's Church.

Ordered, That the Committee for St. Gregories, by Paule's, do meet this Afternoon, at Two of Clock, in the Exchequer-court.

Captives at Algiers, &c.

Ordered, That the Business concerning the Captives of Algiers, and Setting forth of Six Ships for the Defence of the Western Coasts, be considered of To-morrow Morning, next after the Consideration of the Disbanding of the new Irish Army, and those other Heads of that Conference.

And it is likewise Ordered that That Committee do meet this Afternoon, at Two of Clock, in the usual Place; and that they send for the Treasurer and Victualler of the Navy, to confer with them about this Business: and Sir Ro, Pye is added to this Committee.

Bishops Temporal Jurisdiction.

Resolved, upon the Question, That for Bishops, or any other Clergymen whatsoever, to be in the Commissions of the Peace, or to have any judicial Power in the Starchamber, or in any Civil Court, is a Hindrance to their Spiritual Function, prejudicial to the Commonwealth, and fit to be taken away by a Bill; and that a Bill be drawn to that Purpose.

Trial of E. of Straford.

A Message from the Lords, by the Master of the Rolls, and Mr. Attorney.

The Lords desire a free Conference, by the same Committee that last met, touching the Demands concerning the Trial of the Earl of Straford, in the Painted Chamber, presently, if it may stand with the Conveniency of this House.

Answer returned by the same Messengers; that this House has taken their Lordships Message into Consideration; and will give a Meeting, presently, by the same Committee, as is desired.

The Committee for the Earl of Straford are appointed to manage and report this Conference.

Tillage, &c.

Ordered, That the Committee for the Bill of Conversion of Tillage into Pasture, do meet this Afternoon, at Two of Clock, in the Court of Wards.

Mr. Perpoint, and Sir Alexander Denton, are added to this Committee.