House of Commons Journal Volume 2: 17 August 1641

Pages 259-261

Journal of the House of Commons: Volume 2, 1640-1643. Originally published by His Majesty's Stationery Office, London, 1802.

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Die Martis, 17 Aug. 1641.


Defence of the Kingdom.

ORDERED, That the Committee, appointed to put the Kingdom into a Posture of Defence, do meet this Afternoon, at Two of Clock, in the usual Place.


1a vice lecta est Billa, An Act for making the Chapel of Wapping parochial.

Leave of Absence.

Resolved, upon the Question, That Mr. Shuttleworth shall have Leave to go into the Country.

Money for Army Service.

Ordered, That Twenty thousand Pounds, out of the Money received at Westminster and London, shall be forthwith sent down for the Disbanding of the King's Army; and that the said Twenty thousand Pounds shall be paid into the Hands of such Person or Persons, as Sir Wm. Uvedall hath authorized and left here for that Purpose: And they are hereby required to take care to send it down with all convenient Speed: And Acquittances, under such Person or Persons Hands, shall be a sufficient Discharge to the Treasurers and Receivers at Westminster and London, for so much Monies as shall be, by virtue of this Order, paid unto the Persons aforesaid.

Letter to Ld. General.

A Letter presented from the Committee was read; and allowed of; and ordered to be fair written, to be sent to the Lord General.

House to sit.

A Message from the Lords by Sir Rob. Rich, and Dr. Bennett;

The Lords are resolved to sit this Afternoon at Three of Clock: Their Desire is, that this House would do the like, if it may stand with their Conveniency.

Answer returned by the said Messengers;

The House hath taken into Consideration their Lordships Message; and is resolved to sit this Afternoon.

Soap Patents, &c.

Mr. Kinge reports the Soap Business: And, upon the whole report thereof, it was by the House, as followeth,

Soap Patents, &c.

1. Resolved, upon the Question, That the Information of Palmer and Jones to his Majesty, to make hard Soap with Berilla, and soft Soap without the Use of Fire, was a deceatful Project; and the Letters Patents, dated the 17th of December, 7mo Car. obtained by Palmer and others to set on Foot this Project, were illegal.

2. Resolved, upon the Question, That the Letters Patents of Incorporation of the Soap makers of Westminster, dated 20mo Januarii, 7mo Car. and the Indenture of Covenants thereupon, dated 3° Maii, 8vo Car. was a Monopoly, and illegal in the Creation.

3. Resolved, That the Proclamation, dated 28° Junii, 8° Car. set forth in pursuance of the said Indentures of Covenants, was against Law and the Liberty of the Subject; and the said Letters Patents, Indenture of Covenants, and Proclamation, were a great Grievance in the Execution of them.

4. Resolved, upon the Question, That Sir H. Compton, Sir H. Guitford, Sir Nich. Fortescue, Sir Rich. Weston, Sir Basil Brooke, Sir Edw. Stradlinge, Sir Wm. Ford, Sir James Bagg, George Gage, Tho. Jones, Bainham Vaughan, Fra. Townly, Tho. Russell, Beverley Briton, are Delinquents.

5. Resolved, upon the Question, That so many of the Persons abovenamed, as are now living, shall be forthwith sent for, as Delinquents, by the Serjeant at Arms attending on this House.

6. Resolved, upon the Question, That the Prosecution in the Star chamber against Tho. Overman the elder, Tho. Overman the younger, John Hardwicke, Rich. Hinde, Tho. Washer, Edmund Whitwell, Symon Weeden, Wm. Barber, Rob. Barfoote, John Revell, James Baker, John Hayes, Jacob Troughton, Tho. Munck, Richa. Cox and Edwin Griffin, Soap-boilers of London, the over-ruling their Plea and Demurrer, expunging all their Answers but "not guilty," suppressing their Interrogatories and Depositions, the Sentence and proceedings against them, are against Law, and the Liberty of the Subject, and the Sentence ought to be reversed; and Thomas Overman the elder, John Hardwick, Rich. Hinde, Edmund Whitwell, Symon Weeden, Rob. Barfoote, James Baker, John Hayes, Jacob Troughton, Tho. Moncke, Rich. Coxe, and Edwyn Griffin, ought to have Recompence, from the Parties formerly voted to be Delinquents, for their Imprisonments, Loss of Trade, spoiling their Vats, Pans, Goods, and other Damages thereby occasioned; and Grace Barber, the Widow of William Barber deceased, and his Son, Ann Revill, the Widow of John Revill, and her Children, Mary Washer, the Widow of Thomas Washer, and her Children, and the Relict of Tho. Overman the younger, ought to have the like Amends.

Resolved, upon the Question, That the Prosecution of the said Star-chamber Suit against Tho. Overman, and the rest of the London Soapers was, at the general Charge of the Corporation of Westminster, and by the particular Solicitation of Sir Rich. Weston, Sir Basil Brooke, and Mr. Gage, Three of the Corporation, and one Beere a Solicitor, for and in the Name of the whole Corporation: And that the several Persons then of that Corporation, and yet alive, ought to make Amends to the several Parties aforenamed respectively.

Resolved, upon the Question, That the Decree made in Star-chamber, the 23 of August 1633, for regulating the Trade of Soapers, is illegal, and tends to the Subversion of the Laws of this Realm, and to the Introducing of an arbitrary Government; and is of dangerous Consequence, and ought to be vacated.

Resolved, upon the Question, That all those that were Covenantees with the King, by the Indenture of Covenants, dated the 12th of April, 1636, or had any Share in the Gains raised by the Corporation of Westminster, or Stock in that Employment, are Delinquents, and ought to make Amends to all such as, after those Covenants entered into were restrained the Use of their Trades of making Soap, or sustained any Loss in their Vats, Pans, or otherwise, by Occasion of the Corporation of Westminster.

Ordered, That it be recommitted to the Committee for the Soap-Business, to inform themselves, by the Minute-book of the Register for the Court of Starchamber, or otherwise, who were present, and gave their Consent to the making of the Decree in Star-chamber, for regulating the Trade of the Soap-boilers; and who gave Votes in the Sentence of that Court against the London Soap-boilers; and to consider who were the Referrees of the Letters Patents granted to the Corporation of the Soap-boilers of Westminster; as also who were the first Referrees of the Soap Business; and to consider, who of the Privy Council gave their Consent to the illegal Orders made at Council-table; and to consider what other Persons have had any Benefit in the Soap Business: And are to meet To-morrow in the Afternoon, in the Exchequer-court.

The Tower

Resolved, upon the Question, That this House holds it fit, that the Constable of the Tower be desired, from this House, to reside in the Tower during his Majesty's Absence; and to command Fifty of the Trained Band of the Hamlet Men for the Day-time, and other Fifty for the Night-time, to continue in the Tower for the Defence thereof in his Majesty's Absence, and such of the City of London as he shall set.

Portsmouth Garison.

Ordered, That the Sheriff of Hampshire shall forthith, upon sight hereof, pay the Sum of Three thousand Pounds, of the Poll-money collected in that County, to Colonel Goring, or such as he shall authorize to receive the same, for the Use of the Garison of Portsmouth; and that a Receipt from Colonel Goring to the said Sheriff, for the said Sum of Three thousand Pounds, shall be admitted by the Treasurers appointed to receive the Poll-money in the City of London, as if so much Money had been paid by the said Sheriff. And it is further Ordered, That Mr. Speaker do write his Letter to the said Sheriff, to hasten the Payment of the said Sum to Colonel Goring, or such as he shall appoint to receive the same.

Ordered, That Colonel Goringe do forth with repair to the Garison at Portsmouth; and there to remain, and take care of the Garison, till he hear further from this House.


Ordered, That the Committee appointed to consider how to put the Kingdom into a Posture of Defence do sit this Afternoon, at Two Clock, in the Exchequercourt; and do take into Consideration the Propositions, this Day and formerly made by Colonel Goring, concerning Matters necessary for the Garison of Portsmouth, and Defence of that Port: And Sir Ph. Stapleton and Colonel Goring are added to that Committee.

post Meridiem.

Leather Trade.

MR. Kinge reports the Business concerning Leather; And, because it was a Business of great Consequence, and that the House was very thin; and that One Part of that Business was referred to another Committee; this Business was laid aside for this time.

Ordered, That the Report now made concerning Leather, shall be taken into Consideration on Friday Morning next: And that Mr. Green shall make Report of that Business at the same time.

Ordered, That no Calves-skins or Hides shall be transported, by Force of any Patent whatsoever granted for the Transportation of Calves-skins, until this House shall have given their Opinion of such Patent, and declare their farther Order therein.

Price's Case.

Sir Wm. Armyn, Mr. Strode, Mr. Theloall, Sir Jo. Price, are appointed to go to the Lord Keeper, to acquaint him what this House has been informed, concerning the Putting of Mr. Arth. Price out of the Commission of Peace for the County of Montgomerye, and Blany and Jux; and require an Account from him.

Person sent for.

Resolved, upon the Question, That Robert Lyner shall be forthwith sent for, as a Delinquent, by the Serjeant at Arms attending on this House; for refusing to deliver up the Custody of the Magazine into the Hands of a Protestant, he himself being a Recusant.


Resolved, upon the Question, That Mr. Jo. Blany shall be forthwith sent for, as a Delinquent, by the Serjeant at Arms attending on this House.

Disarming Recusants.

Mr. Hollis, Sir Ph. Stapleton, Sir Jo. Colpeper, Mr. Greene, Mr. Strode, Sir Edw. Hungerford, Mr. Morley, Sir Hen. Milmy, Sir Walt. Earle, Sir Jo. Clatworthy, Sir Wm. Armyn, Sir Arth. Haselrigg, Mr. Pym;

This Committee is to prepare Heads for a Conference with the Lords, concerning the Disarming of Recusants.

Privilege - Sir J. Thinne, &c.

Mr. Whistler reports the Case between Sir James Thinne, and Sir Frederick Henry Thinne his Brother.

Resolved, upon the Question, That Sir James Thinne shall not have the Privilege of Parliament in this Case, now reported between him and his Brother Sir Frederick Thinne.

Defence of the Kingdom.

A Message from the Lords, by Sir Ro. Rich, and Sir Edw. Leech.

The Lords desire a free Concurrence, by a Committee of both Houses, presently, in the Painted Chamber, if it may stand with the Conveniency of this House, concerning the Defence of the Kingdom.

Answer returned by the same Messengers;

This House has taken their Lordships Message into Consideration; and will give a present Meeting, as is desired.

* Hotham; * Hollis, Sir Gervase Clifton, Mr. Martin, * Perd, * Strode, are appointed Reporters of this free Conference.

Fisher's Counsel.

Ordered, That Mr. Fountaine, Mr. Hales, and Mr. Glover, shall be assigned to be of Counsel with Mr. Fisher, before a Committee, unto which the Petition of the said Mr. Fisher is referred.

Proceedings against Recusants.

Sir Wm. Lewis, by Appointment, went up to the Lords with this Message; to desire a free Conference, by a Committee of both Houses, so soon as may stand with their Lordships Conveniency, concerning Proceedings against Recusants.

Mr. Pym reports from the Committee, appointed to prepare Heads for a Conference to be desired with the Lords, concerning the Proceedings against Recusants.

The first Head agreed upon is this; That, because former Directions about the Disarming and Convicting of Recusants have been frustrated, therefore to desire the Lords, that Commissioners, or Committees, may be forthwith sent into Counties of most Danger (as Yorkshire, Lancashire, and other Counties) authorized by Ordinance of Parliament, to see that the Papists be disarmed in those Counties: And that they may have Power to examine where the Defect hath been, that the Disarming and Convicting of them hath not been put in Execution: And to inquire the Cause thereof.

Next, To let the Lords understand, that the Conviction of divers Recusants hath been hindered, under Pretence of Privilege of Parliament from their Lordships; and to declare unto their Lordships, that the Opinion of this House is, that no Privilege of Parliament ought to be allowed in this Case, for these Reasons: 1. Privilege of Parliament is not to be allowed in case of Peace, if the Peace be required. 2. It is not to be allowed against any Indictment for any thing done out of Parliament. 3. It is not to be allowed in case of publick Service for the Commonwealth; for that it must not be used for the Danger of the Commonwealth. 4. It is in the Power of the Parliament, and doth not bind the Parliament itself: So that their Lordships may withdraw their own Privilege as they see Cause; and therefore to declare, that in these Two Cases, of Disarming of Recusants, and Convicting of them, no Privilege of Parliament ought to be allowed.

Next, To desire their Lordships, all Certiorari's in the King's Bench in this Case be superceded, that do hinder free Proceedings in this Kind; and that those that are Recusants, as also justly suspected, may be disarmed by the Common Law; as, in case of a Riot, or other Mischief, a Justice of Peace may use his Power to prevent it.

Next, That Precedents are extant: That the Marquis of Winchester, the Earl of Arundell, and others, have been disarmed, being Recusants.

Lastly, That these Commissioners, or Committee, may be armed with Power to give the Oath of Allegiance and Supremacy.

Sir Wm. Lewis brings Answer, that the Lords will give a present Meeting, at a free Conference, by a Committee of the whole House, as is desired.

The same Committee that was appointed to prepare Heads for, this free Conference, are likewise appointed Managers of this Conference.

Person to be brought up.

That Sir Rich. Minshall shall be forthwith brought to the Bar; and upon his Acknowledgment of his Offence, shall be forthwith released from * *

Payments to Northern Counties.

Ordered, That Acquittances under the Hands of any Three of the Scotts Commissioners, shall be a sufficient Discharge to the Earl of Warwick, for all such Sums of Money, as he hath, by Order of this House, at any time, paid unto the Scotts Commissioners for Relief of the Northern Counties.

James' Trunks, &c.

Whereas, upon the Commitment of Mr. John James to the Gatehouse, some Members of the House were, by Order, commanded to seal up the Trunks of the said John James: It is this Day Ordered, That the said John James shall have the said Trunks delivered unto him, which, by the said Order, were sealed up as aforesaid, and likewise his Cloaths and Money.

Commrs to Scotland.

Ordered, That, To-morrow at Eight of Clock, the Business concerning the Instructions to be given to those Members, that are appointed to go from both Houses into Scotland, shall be taken into Consideration: And that after that Business, the Consideration of securing the Tower shall be resumed.