House of Commons Journal Volume 2: 13 November 1641

Pages 314-315

Journal of the House of Commons: Volume 2, 1640-1643. Originally published by His Majesty's Stationery Office, London, 1802.

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Die Sabbati, 13 Nov. 1641.



SIR Wm. Hicks, Sir Wm. Roe, Mr. Coniers, have paid far less, as it is informed, to the Poll-money, than they ought to have paid by the Act; being Men of very great Estates.

Sir Wm. Elvis, Sir Patrick Abercromey, Sir Leonard Forbey, Sir Wm. Barnes, refuse to pay the Poll-money, and have nothing to be distrained.

Whereas several Certificates have been presented to this House, of sundry Defaulters in Payment of the Sums assessed upon them by virtue of the Bill of the Poll-money: The House doth declare, and so order, that the Collectors shall demand the said Sums of the several Parties assessed; and shall accept no less than double the Value, according to the Act; and shall return such as shall be Defaulters, that the House may take such Order as they shall think fit.

Mr. Reignolds, Mr. Whisler, Sir John Colpeper, Mr. Whitlock, Sir Gilbert Gerard, * Mildmay, * Barrington, Serjeant Wilde, are appointed to draw up an Order, according to the Meaning of this Declaration of the House, concerning the Defaulters of the Payment of the Pollmoney; and to prepare a Certificate to be generally for all the Counties; and the Order and the Certificate to be printed: And are to meet this Afternoon, at Three of Clock, in the inner Court of Wards.

Ordered, That Mr. Chaundeler of Winton be summoned to appear here, to give Information concerning a Distress taken for the Not-payment of the Poll-money according to the Act; and that Horwood, the Under Sheriff of the County of Southampton, be forthwith required to attend the Pleasure of this House.

Gold and Silver Thread.

Ordered, That all the Orders, concerning the Bringing in of the Commission, Instructions, and Orders of the Commissioners for Gold and Silver Thread, be suspended till after the Trials.

Duke of Florence's Agent.

Sir John Colpeper, Sir Ben. Rudyard, Sir Ralph Hopton, Sir Tho. Barrington, Alderman Pennington, Sir Jo. Holland, Mr. Kirton, Sir Gilb. Gerard, Mr. Palmer, Lord Falkland, J. Gray, Mr. Coke, Sir Arth. Ingram, Mr. Reignolds, Mr. Glyn, Mr. Valentine, Sir Wm. Penyman, Sir Edw. Rodney, Sir Beauchamp St. Johns, Sir Ro. Harley, Mr. Lisle, Sir H. Mildmay, Sir Edw. Partridge, Mr. Wallop, Mr. Morley, Mr. Strangewayes, Sir Edw. Deering, Captain Rainsborough;

This Committee is to consider the Outrages offered to Seignior Amerigo, Agent to the Duke of Florence; and likewise to consider of the Abuses of those Men that are employed by this House for Apprehending of Priests: And they are to consider of some fit way of Reparations to be made to Seignior Amerigo, if they shall find Cause; and to present them to the House: And are to meet on Monday Morning, at Eight of Clock, in the inner Court of Wards.

Privilege of Parliament.

1a vice lecta est Billa, An Act to restrain the Privilege of Parliament, in some Cases, during this present Session of Parliament.


2da vice lecta est Billa prædicta; and, upon Question, committed unto the former Committee for Protections: And all, that will come, are to have Voices: And they are to meet on Monday Morning, at Eight of Clock, in the Star-chamber.

Loan from the City.

Sir Tho. Barrington reports the Answer of the City to the Proposition of lending Monies:

"1. That the Committee, appointed to go to the City for Monies, found a great deal of Readiness and Willingness in the City to lend Money.-The Lord Mayor desired to know the Particulars we had in Charge for their Security: Which being made known unto them, together with the miserable Condition of Ireland; Mr. Recorder (who did very much promote the Business) pressed them to give their Votes: But, before they did That, They desired, by way of Proposition, to offer something (not by way of Contract) to this Honourable House: 1. That the Money should be paid as soon as the Act was passed. 2. That, by reason of the Privilege of the Members of both Houses, and by reason of the Protections granted (especially by the Lords) a vast Sum of Money is detained from them, so that Trade cannot be driven; nor are they so enabled to lend Monies for the Service of the Commonwealth as they desired. 3. They said, they were sensible of the Miseries of the Protestants in Ireland, and of the Power of the Papists there; and therefore did press with much Earnestness, that the Persons of the Popish Lords, and other Persons of Quality here in England, might be secured, lest some Design be by them here, as they have Cause to fear. Next, that there were divers Laws and good Motions, sent up to the Lords, for the Good of this Church and Commonwealth; and that the great Impediment which did arise there, that they passed not, was from the Bishops; and did conceive, so long as their Votes was in Parliament, it would be a Hindrance to the Progress of all good Laws and Motions; and therefore desired a further Endeavour to take away their Votes.-This being thus said by them, they put it to the Vote for lending Monies; and not One Hand or Vote against it: And did declare, that, if the Lord Mayor would send to every Ward, they would presently pay the Monies, or subscribe to do it in a short time.

Proceedings against the Bishops.

The Plea and Demurrer of Twelve of the Bishops, charged by this House, was twice read.

Resolved, upon the Question, That this Plea and Demurrer of the Bishops is dilatory and insufficient.

Mr. Solicitor, Mr. Glyn, Serjeant Wilde, Mr. Maynard, Mr. Bridgeman, Mr. Ellis, Sir Tho. Widdrington, Mr. Reignolds, Mr. Hill, Mr. Bagshaw, Mr. Holborne, Mr. Grimston, Mr. White, Mr. Sands, Mr. Corbett, Mr. King;

This Committee is to consider of the Plea and Demurrer of the Twelve Bishops, and to present their Opinions, what they think fit to be done upon it; and likewise to consider of the Answer of the Thirteenth: And have Power to send for Parties, Witnesses, Papers, Records: And are to withdraw presently into the inner Court of Wards.

Irish Affairs.

A Letter from the Treasurer at Wars in Ireland, directed to Sir Ro. Kinge, was this Day read: And thereupon it was

Resolved, upon the Question, That, upon this new Advertisement, this House shall again debate concerning a farther Assistance now to be desired of the Scotts, not-withstanding the former Order.

Resolved, upon the Question, That this House holds it fit, that the Assistance of Four thousand Men more shall be desired, to be added to the Number of One thousand formerly resolved to be desired of the Scotts, for the present Expedition into Ireland.

Lords desired to sit.

Lord Cramborne is appointed to go to the Lords;

To acquaint their Lordships, that this House is now upon Businesses of great Importance; and do believe, that they shall have Occasion to come up to their Lordships; and therefore to desire they would be pleased to sit.

Petition to the King.

Ordered, That a Petition be prepared, to be presented from both Houses to his Majesty, in case his Majesty, and our Committees, be first come out of Scotland, before these Instructions be presented to his Majesty, humbly beseeching his Majesty to recommend the same to the Parliament in Scotland.

Lords to sit.

Lord Cramborne brings Answer, that their Lordships will sit this Afternoon, as is desired.

Irish Soldiers.

Ordered, That the Committee appointed to examine Roberts, the Paymaster to the Irish Soldiers, do take into Consideration the Examination of a Business, whereof the House is now informed, concerning great Sums of Money provided for the Payment of Irish Soldiers, and others, taken up to be transported beyond the Seas: And to have Power to send for Parties, Witnesses, and Writings.

Proceedings against the Bishops.

Serjeant Wilde reports from the Committee appointed to consider of the Twelve Bishops Plea and Demurrer, that they, after long Debate, and Variety of Opinions, they came at last to this Conclusion; That this Plea and Demurrer is dilatory and insufficient; and that these Twelve Bishops have made no Answer; and therefore to desire the Lords, they may put in a peremptory Answer, such as they will stand unto.

Ordered, That this Debate, concerning the Plea and Demurrer of the Bishops, shall be resumed on Monday Morning at Ten of Clock.

Instructions to Committee in Scotland.

Mr. Pym presents, from the Committee, the Instructions to be sent into Scotland, with some Alterations.

Lord Grey is appointed to go to the Lords with this Message;

To desire a Conference with their Lordships, by a Committee of both Houses, so soon as will stand with their Lordships Conveniency, concerning the Instructions to be sent to the Committees attending his Majesty in Scotland.

The Petition from bóth Houses to his Majesty was read; and, upon the Question, assented unto.

That the Addition of the Lords, as is more particularly expressed in the Fifth Article, now at the End of that Article, shall be transposed in the Tenth Line of the Second Article.

The Addition to the Fourth Article;

The Alteration in the Eighth Article;

These Additions and Alterations were all severally put to the Question, and assented unto.

Then the Instructions to the Messenger were likewise read; and, upon the Question, assented unto.

Resolved, upon the Question, That One Head of the Conference shall be to express unto the Lords, that the Matter of the Sixth Article is so important, that this House cannot recede from it; but do intend to send it to his Majesty within these Four days; and would be very glad to know their Lordships Resolutions of joining with them in that Time.

Mr. Pym, Mr. Hollis, Mr. Hampden, are appointed Managers of this Conference.

Lord Grey brings Answer, that their Lordships will give a present Meeting, as is desired.

Royal Family's Servants.

Ordered, That Mr. Strode shall go with this Message to the Lords on Monday Morning:

To desire their Lordships to give Directions, that a Commission may issue to some of the Lords, for the Tendering the Oaths of Allegiance and Supremacy to the Servants belonging to the King, the Queen, the Prince, and the rest of the King's Children, as well ordinary as extraordinary, Strangers or others.

Instructions to Committee in Scotland.

Mr. Pym reports from the Conference of both Houses, That whereas he presented to the Lords at the Conference, the Instructions, with their Amendments, the Petition to his Majesty, and the Instructions to the Messenger; that they have assented unto them all; and that, as to the Sixth Article to the Instructions, they will take the Time mentioned by this House to consider of it.

Ordered, That these Instructions and Petitions shall be fair ingrossed, and signed by Mr. Speaker.

The Letter to be sent to the Committees was likewise read; and put to the Question; and assented unto.

It was likewise farther Ordered, that in the said Letter, should be inclosed the Order of this House of the 4th of Nov. concerning the Committees enjoining Mr. Webb to deliver unto them the Letter that was written from a Member of this House; a Part whereof was read the said 4th of Nov.

An Addition to Mr. Pickering's Instructions, viz. that in case he should not meet with the Committees at Edenborough, that then he should have Liberty to open the Letter, and to go to the Lord General, according as is specified in the Letter, was likewise read; and, upon the Question, assented unto.