House of Commons Journal Volume 3: 5 April 1644

Die Veneris, Aprilis 5, 1644.

Sir W. Robarts.

UPON the Letter from the Committee of Kent, at Knoll, of the Third of April, directed to Sir Tho. Walsingham; desiring him to mediate for Sir Walt. Robarts his Enlargement, who has preferred a Petition unto them, full of Submission;

It is Ordered, by Vote upon the Question, That Sir Walt. Robarts, now a Prisoner, by Order of this House, be forthwith released and discharged from any further Restraint.

Lancaster Duchy Seal.

A Letter from the Committee at Manchester, 16 Februarii 1643, concerning the Duchy Palatine Seal being taken away.

Resolved, &c. That a new Seal shall be made for the Duchy of Lancaster: And that the Lords Concurrence be desired.

Resolved, &c. That the Charge for making of this Seal shall be paid out of the Revenue of the Duchy, collected in the County of Lancaster: And the Committee for the Revenue is to give Warrant for Payment of the same accordingly.

Mr. Ashehurste and Mr. Asheton are to take care for the making of this Seal.

Allowance to Sir N. Poole.

Resolved, &c. That Ten Pounds a Week shall be allowed, out of the King's Revenue, to Sir Nevile Poole; and be paid accordingly from this time, by the Committee of the Revenue, till this House take further Order.

Druschke's Arrears.

The humble Petition of Jonas van Druschke, Colonel over a Regiment of Horse, under Sir Wm. Waller; informing the House of his long Sickness by reason of his great Wounds; yet now recovered, and desirous to go again to his Charge, if he had Part of his Arrears:

It is this Day Ordered, That it be referred to the Committee at Haberdashers Hall, of this House, to see that such Part of his Arrears be paid unto the said Colonel, out of the Remainder of the Ten thousand Pounds to be paid to Sir Wm. Waller, as they shall think fit; he first producing unto them an Account, under the Auditor's Hand, of the Arrears due unto him.

Military Stores, &c.

Resolved, &c. That One hundred and Fifty Backs, Breasts, and Pots, be delivered to Mr. Millington, for the Service of Nottingham, out of the Stores in the Tower.

Resolved, &c. That Two hundred Pair of Pistols and Swords shall be forthwith provided for the Service of Nottingham.

Frenche Church in London.

The House being informed, that divers Divines were at the Door;

They were called in; and presented a Petition from the Frenche Church here in London.

Ordered, That this Petition be taken into Consideration, on Monday Morning next, peremptorily: And Mr. Speaker is to put the House in mind hereof.

The Divines were again called in: Mr. Speaker acquainted them with the Resolution of this House, to take the said Petition into a speedy Consideration.

Waller's Arrears.

Whereas Sir Wm. Waller hath bought of the Sequestrators, Goods and Household-stuff sequestered, to the Value of Three hundred Pounds; the which he desireth may be satisfied and paid for, out of the Arrears due unto him, for his Entertainment: It is Ordered, That the Sequestrators do charge themselves with the said Sum of Three hundred Pounds; and that it shall be allowed upon their Account, and cast, and charged upon the Arrears of Entertainment, due unto Sir Wm. Waller; and defalked and satisfied out of his Entertainment and Pay.

Payment to Bamfield.

Whereas Sir Jo. Bamfield, of the Parish of Magdalen's Milk-street, London, did, in November 1642, lend and pay, upon a Loan of the Thirty thousand Pounds lent by the Citizens of London, for the Service of the Army raised by the Parliament, the Sum of Fifty Pounds; which was promised to be repaid out of the next Monies then to come into the State; and the same is still unpaid: It is Ordered, by the and Commons, That the Committee at Haberdashers Hall do forthwith pay unto the Treasurers upon the Propositions at Guildhall, the Sum of Fifty Pounds, to be paid by them to Sir Jo. Bampfield, for Repayment of the Fifty Pounds lent and advanced by him, as aforesaid.

London Forces.

An Ordinance for giving Power to the Committee of the Militia in London, to raise and send forth Forces containing very large Powers, was this Day read the First and Second time; and, upon the Question, committed unto the Committee for the weekly Meal, where Mr. Ellis has the Chair: And they are to meet upon it this Afternoon, at Two of Clock, in the Exchequer Chamber: And have Power to send for Parties, Witnesses, Papers, Records: And are to peruse the Ordinance formerly granted the Militia, upon the sending forth of the Forces under Colonel Browne: And that they do not exceed the Powers granted in the said Ordinance: And they are to bring it in To-morrow Morning: And the Care hereof is especially recommended unto Mr. Ellis.

Money for Army.

Ordered, That the Committee of the King's Revenue do pass their Order for issuing out of the Three thousand Pounds to Colonel Harvey, according to the former Order of this House made in that Behalf.

Prince Elector.

Sir Simonds D'Ewes is appointed to carry up to the Lords, the Copy of the Letter to be sent to the Prince Elector, in Answer of his.

Deputy Lieutenants of Cambridge.

Resolved, &c. That this House doth approve of Sir Jo. Maynard, Michael Dalton jun. Dudley Pope, Edw. Clench, James Thompson, Esquires, to be Deputy Lieutenants of the County of Cambridge.

He carried up these Names, to be Deputy Lieutenants for the County of Cambridge: And likewise the additional Names to the Committee of Sussex:

Sussex Committee.

"Ordered, That William Freeman, Wm. Cook, Edward Manning, Nicholas Shepheard, Richard Yates, Thomas White, and Arthur Cottingham, be added to the Committee for Sequestrations of Sussex."

Lords desire a Conference.

A Message from the Lords, by Sir Edward Leech and Mr. Page;

That the Lords do desire a present Conference, if it may stand with the Conveniency of this House; touching the Matter of the last Conference, concerning the Committee of Nine, and the Two Papers.

Answer returned by the same Messengers; That this House will give a present Meeting, as desired.

Mr. Holles, Sir H. Vane jun. Mr. Sam. Browne, Mr. Reynolds, are appointed Reporters of this Conference.

Sir W. Brereton.

Ordered, That Sir Wm. Brereton do, before the House rise, present a List of those Impediments that hinder him that he cannot speedily go down to his Charge.

Conference reported.

Mr. Holles reports, from the Lords, the Conference desired, concerning the Committee of Nine, and the Two Papers; and presented first a Paper to the House, which was the Substance of the former Conference, delivered by the Lords, lest there might be a Mistake; and also presented, in Writing, another Paper, which contained the Substance of this Conference: Both which Papers were read.

Reston's Arrears.

Ordered, That the Committee at Haberdashers Hall do pay the Sum of Eleven Pounds Four Shillings Six-pence, being the Arrear of Pay due to Lieutenant Reston, slain at Worcester, to Olave Reston his Widow.

Reformado Officers.

Ordered, That the Committee for the English and Scotts Reformado Officers do make their Report To-morrow Morning.

Business deferred.

Ordered, That this Business concerning the Paper from the States Ambassadors, and from the Scotts Commissioners, and the Report of this Conference with the Lords, touching the same Business, be taken into Consideration To-morrow Morning, the first Business; and that no other Business intervene.

Grounds for Peace, &c.

At the Conference, delivered by my Lord General, 29 Martii, 1644.

Gentlemen,

I am commanded by the Lords, to acquaint you how desirous they are, at all times, to keep a good Correspondence between the Two Houses; especially now we have so many Enemies, That which ... in Question between the Houses, is of Two Particulars, though both of the same Nature, tending to One End; which is for Peace. One proceeded from the House of Commons, which, I hope, soon may be reconciled; but for That which concerns the States Ambassadors, the Lords have this Day received a Message from them, That they are to write away this Day; who will think it strange, they have had no Answer all this while from the Parliament: Wherefore the Lords desire, that you will join with them in That, they seeing no Reason why they should alter their Opinions, their House being first possessed of it; yet they are not so wedded to it, but that, if a Precedent can be shewed, that, when the Lords had once named a Committee, and desired the House of Commons to concur with them, and to name a proportionable Number of their Members, and that the House of Commons refused to join with them and the Lords receded, they will join with them. When the Conference came up unto the Lords, concerning the Grounds of Peace, upon the Fifteenth of March, which was by the House of Commons desired to be referred to the Committee of the Two Kingdoms; the Lords considered, that That Committee was appointed, by Ordinance, for another Purpose of a very differing Nature, and all Consideration of Peace expressly prohibited to them in a Proviso: The Lords, well knowing that it is their undoubted Privilege to have the Liberty to nominate a new Committee of their own House, when any new Power was to be granted, resolved accordingly, upon serious Debate, by Question, That this new Power of laying Grounds for a just and safe Peace, should not be referred to the former Committee appointed for managing the War; but to a new Committee of Nine, the Number whereof the Lords did acquaint the House of Commons with, without naming the Persons, as the House of Commons well know the Custom hath ever been; neither need the Lords nominate the Persons in their own House, unless they please, until they receive Answer from the House of Commons, that they agree to nominate a proportionable Number. Upon the Nineteenth Day, at another Conference desired by the House of Commons, there was communicated unto the Lords, a Paper received from the Dutch Ambassadors, with a Desire, That should likewise be referred to the Committee of both Kingdoms. Upon the Twentieth Day, before the Report of That Conference was made, their Speaker informed them of a Paper of the Dutch Ambassador's, received by him Five or Six Days before; but, not finding an Opportunity sooner, he then delivered it; and it was read: So that the House was possessed of it, before the Report was made of the Conference; and, being found to be a Business tending to the same End as the other represented at the former Conference, concerning Grounds of Peace, the Lords did presently resolve to put it into the same Way: And, if by any Mistake of the Clerk, before the Lords of the Committee for the Journal Book had Leisure to view it, it was not entered accordingly, That can be no Prejudice to their Proceedings. And, though the Persons were not nominated till That Day, yet the Committee was resolved upon Five Days before.

This being the true State of the Business, the House of Lords are fully persuaded, that they have good Reason to adhere to their former Opinion, of referring the Paper of the Dutch Ambassadors to the Committee of Nine: For the Lords are abundantly assured, that constant Prescription is on their Side, That, though either House respectively may desire to refer any subsequent Matter to a former Committee, yet either House have a free Liberty to dissent from such a Desire; and are not obliged to express the Reasons which induced them to that Dissent, if they please to reserve them to themselves. But though the Lords ought not to be urged to give an Account, or render a Reason, of the Acts done in their House, yet they are freely willing, for the better Satisfaction of the House of Commons, to add some Reasons, and repeat those formerly given at a Conference, whereunto the Lords believe that the Commons have not as yet given any satisfactory Answer: And, though it be a Circumstance only, which makes the Difference in Opinion at this Time betwixt the Two Houses, yet it is such a Circumstance as is of great Consideration, in sundry respects:

1. Because this being a new Power, the Lords do think it cannot be granted but by a new Ordinance: Therefore, as it is most free to them, so it is most proper to name a new Committee to that Purpose.

2. If it should be admitted that it might be done, yet, in this particular Case, the Lords hold it unfit that the Matter of Peace should be referred to the former Committee of the Two Kingdoms, because it doth consist, for the most Part, of such Men as must necessarily be absent, upon other Employment; therefore the Lords did judge to be most expedient to name this Committee of Nine, the most whereof are like to be present to attend that Service: For this Committee being, as you call it, a Ship, which contains the Power of managing the War already, the Lords cannot be persuaded, that Three Lords and Nine Commoners can be sufficient to Man this Ship; for, if this new Power should be granted which the House of Commons doth desire, she would then be laden with whatsoever is dear to the Three Kingdoms: And therefore, being a Trust of so universal a Concernment, the Lords dare not consent to delegate this Power to so small a Number.

3. Though it is said, that this Power is only to prepare Grounds of Peace, the Lords think it will be the same, in Effect, with that Ordinance first sent down from the Lords House, which they believe the House of Commons in their grave Wisdoms saw good Cause to wave, and send up another to them, which contained this Restraint for meddling with Peace; unto which the Lords readily and chearfully agreed: Now then, if the Lords should be tied to refer whatsoever concerns Peace unto the same Committee, and no other, it were, in Effect, to receive the Powers of That Ordinance which the House of Commons themselves did manifestly disapprove of.

4. Because the Lords did, from the Beginning, desire to retain the ancient approved Custom of chusing Committees respectively in each House, however they yielded to pass the former Ordinance, in respect of the present Exigence, there being an urgent Necessity for some to treat with the Scotts; but the Lords always intended That before the Expiration of the Ordinance now in Force, to consult with the House of Commons, of finding out some Expedient, that might be more satisfactory to both Houses.

5. Because the Lords are confident, that there can be no Pretence of Necessity of Secrecy in the Agitation of the Business of Peace, as in that of War; but, according to the old Maxim, Quod omnes tangit, ab omnibus debet tractari; and therefore no Reason, that any Lords should be debarred the Freedom to ... present, and to contribute his best Assistance, at this Committee, according to the Words in the Writs; Quod personaliter intersitis de arduis Negotiis, cum Magnatibus Colloquium habere et tractare, vestrumque Consilium impendere.

For That Objection, that there will not be a sufficient Number of the Scotts Commissioners to make a Quorum for Two several Committees,

Answer; Business of so heterogenial a Nature, as War and Peace, cannot be in Agitation both at once; and, if at several times, then the same Quorum will serve for both, as well as for one.

Whereas it is said by the House of Commons, that to make Two Committees, will put the Business into a dilatory Way, the contrary whereof doth appear to the Lords, in regard they observe the usual Practice of Parliaments hath been, to make several Committees for Expedition, to the end that several Businesses might be prosecuted at once; which is impossible can be done by one Committee.