House of Commons Journal Volume 9: 25 November 1678

Luno, 25 die Novembris, 1678.

Prayers.

Persons examined.

THE House being informed, that Mr. Tray, Mr. Fowle, and Mr. Godfrey, were, in pursuance of an Order of the House, of the Twentieth of this Instant November, attending in the Lobby;

Ordered, That Mr. Tray, Mr. Fowle, and Mr. Godfrey, be severally called in; and examined at the Bar of this House.

And they having been severally called in; and examined at the Bar;

Ordered, That the said Mr. Tray, Mr. Fowle, and Mr. Godfrey, be discharged from any further Attendance.

Militia.

A Bill for raising the Militia was read the Second time.

Message to attend the King.

A Message from the King, by Sir Edw. Carteret, Usher of the Black Rod;

Mr. Speaker,

The King commands this honourable House to attend him immediately in the House of Lords.

And accordingly Mr. Speaker, with the House, went to attend his Majesty.

The King's Speech against disbanding the Army.

The House being returned; Mr. Speaker reports, That he had attended his Majesty in the House of Lords, where his Majesty was pleased to make a Speech to both Houses of Parliament: And that his Majesty making Use of his Paper in the Delivery thereof; to the end he might not misreport it, he had obtained a Copy: Which was read to the House; and is as followeth;

My Lords and Gentlemen,

I TOLD you in the Beginning of this Session how much I had been obliged to keep up my Forces in Flanders; that without it our Neighbours had absolutely despaired; and by this Means whatever had been saved of Flanders is acknowledged to be wholly due to my Interposition: And I shewed you withal, That I had been forced to employ That Money, which had been raised for disbanding those Troops, in the Continuance of them together; and not only so, but that I had been much more out of Purse for that Service; a Service by which the Honour and Interest of the Nation had been so far improved, that, as I am confident, no Man would repine at it, so I did not doubt, but you would all be willing to supply it.

I have now undergone this Expence so long, that I find it absolutely impossible to support the Charge any longer; and did therefore think of putting an End to that Charge, by recalling my Troops with all possible Speed, who are already exposed to the utmost Extremities of Want and Misery, being without any Prospect of further Pay or Subsistence: But whilst I was about to do this, I have been importuned by the Spanish Ministers to continue them a little longer, until the Ratifications of the Peace be exchanged: Without which, all that hath hitherto been done, they say, will be utterly lost; and that which hath hitherto been saved of Flanders, will inevitably fall into the hands of their Enemies.

And now, between their Importunity to keep up these Troops, and my own Inability to pay them any longer, I find Myself in great Difficulties, What to resolve.

If you do not think, that the publick Safety my require their Continuance, I do wish, as heartily as any man. That for the publick Ease they may be speedily disbanded and paid off.

I have thought fit thus to lay the Matter before you: And, having acquitted Myself to all the World, by asking your Advice and Assistance, I desire it may be speedy, and without any manner of Delay.-

Militia.

Resolved, That the Bill for raising the Militia be committed to a Committee of the whole House.

Mr. Speaker left the Chair.

Sir John Trevor took the Chair of the Committee.

Mr. Speaker resumed the Chair.

Sir John Trevor reports from the said Committee, That they had gone through the Bill, and made some Amendments: Which he read in his Place; and afterwards delivered the same in at the Clerk's Table: Where the same were twice read; and, upon the Question, severally agreed.

Resolved, &c. That the Bill, with the Amendments, be ingrossed.

Privilege- A Member made Sheriff.

The House being informed, that Sir Roger Bradshaw, a Member of this House, is made High Sheriff for the County of Lancaster;

Resolved, &c. That a Committee be appointed to consider of proper Ways for superseding the Commission for making Sir Roger Bradshaw High Sheriff for the County of Lancaster.

And it is referred to Mr. Sachaverell, Sir Wm. Coventry, Sir Tho. Lee, Sir John Hotham, Sir Robert Sawyer, Col. Birch, Sir Tho. Stringer, Serjeant Rigby, Mr. Williams, Mr. Waller, Mr. Buscawen, Sir Edm. Jenings, Sir Ger. Elwes, Sir Charles Harbord, Sir John Otway, Mr. Booth; or any Five of them: And they are to meet at Four of the Clock this Afternoon, in the Speaker's Chamber; and to report their Opinions herein to the House: And are impowered to send for Persons, Papers, and Records.

Reasons against Lords Amendments to Bill disabling Papists.

Sir Edward Deering reports from the Committee appointed to draw up Reasons, Why this House doth not agree with the Lords in the Expedient by them proposed at the last Conference, That the Committee had agreed upon Reasons: Which he read in his Place; and afterwards delivered the same in at the Clerk's Table: Where they were twice read; and, with some Amendments made at the Table, upon the Question, agreed; and are as followeth:

That it is contrary to the constant Method and Proceedings in Parliament, to strike out any thing in a Bill which hath been fully agreed and passed by both Houses; and it would make the Work endless, and might be of dangerous Consequence, if that Method should be diverted and changed. In the Amendment proposed to the Bill by your Lordships, to which the Commons have disagreed, the Number of the Queen's . . . . to be excepted out of the Act, was limited: But, by leaving the Queen's Name out of the Bill, she may have them without Number. So that what is now offered, is worse than what the Commons have already disagreed; and, consequently hath not the Nature of an Expedient.

That, by Experience, it is found, That the Act, intituled, An Act for preventing Dangers, which may happen from Popish Recusants, proved ineffectual to remove Papists from Court, by reason there was no express Mention of the Queen's Servants.

The Scope of the Bill relateth not only to removing Papists out of both Houses of Parliament, but also from the Court, as appeareth both by the Preamble and Body of the Bill: And the Danger of his Majesty may reasonably be supposed to be chiefly in his Court: And the Safety of his Person, the Commons think, ought more to be considered than any Respects to any Person whatsoever.

Conference desired.

Resolved, That a Conference be desired with the Lords upon the Subject Matter of the last Conference: And that Mr. Booth do go up to the Lords, to desire the Conference.

State of the Army.

Resolved, That the Consideration of the State of the Nation, in relation to the Army, which was appointed for this Day, be adjourned till To-morrow Morning, Ten of the Clock.

And then the House adjourned till To-morrow Morning, Eight of the Clock.