Grey's Debates of the House of Commons: Volume 2. Originally published by T. Becket and P. A. De Hondt, London, 1769.
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Monday, March 17.
Colonel Birch.] As Mr Waller said, the other day, "that the Act of Oblivion was not read, when confirmed by this Parliament," so he may say now, that part of the Act of Uniformity, which contains the Common Prayer, was not read—The Act of Indemnity says, "the Covenant shall never be spoken of more," and you repeal that Act in part.
Mr. Vaughan.] Subscription is but a fallible sign; renouncing it by oath, a true one—The Act of Uniformity made great invasion on the Act of Indemnity; and now, by this Proviso, you evidently do so, so that the subject is in a worse estate as to oblivion yet, by this—Though the Church did admit many that had taken the Covenant, yet this Proviso does not—This is to capacitate a man, by incapacitating him; your end is great and noble, do then the just means to your end—This Law signifies nothing, but to reproach the persons you would give Ease unto, and give yourselves a discredit.
Sir Richard Temple.] Would bring the Laity of the party into the Church, and this Proviso will fright them —To make something not in the Act of Indemnity nor Uniformity, will be a greater breach of the Act of Indemnity.
Mr. Hale.] Mr. Sollicitor North would have it called "detestable Covenant," but here is that word "unlawful," a greater word; many things are "detestable" that are not "unlawful"—Would have the Proviso thrown out.
Sir John Duncombe.] Is against all the Bill—As far as it is for Union, is for it, and the bringing men into the Church—As to "assent and consent," would have it taken away; but that will give men an impunity for not coming to Church; they will never come to Church —Offers it to consideration, whether mankind will not generally live after this Law—The Parliament have overcome themselves, and they make this Law "for a year and to the end of the next Session of Parliament"—If you should read over and examine your reasons to the King formerly, against Toleration, they would fly upon you —You have provided against Popery, and this is a great party; ambitious men will rise with them, and will support them to your posterity—What will the young men say at the Universities? "Let us turn our parts to preach sedition and new lights, and return to the Church, as to an hospital, when we are old; which, by subscription, they may get into. No preferment in dull logick." This will be the effect; they will support one another by marriages and interests; it will be past your power to revoke it with all the interest you have—You are to have an eye over them, and watch them—Dreads the consequence of this part of the Bill—It will work upon all your concerns and interests—Leaves it to God and you.
Sir John Bramstone.] Supposes you would have every man to be of some religion, and to be master of his servants; and have the Teacher and his congregation deliver their names to the Parson of the parish.
Mr Secretary Coventry.] You are not making a Bill to destroy the Church, he hopes—You are not only doing a new thing in the kingdom, but in all the world—Here are no limitations in it to Churches, no limitations to Congregations; it has been no where so, wherever he has been—It is said, "they are the wiser and richer part of the nation;" the more is the danger. You do a thing never tried before, and you put it out of your power to remedy the inconveniences of it—They, in intermission of Parliament, may put the kingdom in an uproar, and in great danger, before you can provide any remedy by Parliament.
Sir Charles Harbord.] The severity of the Churchmen has driven eighty families out of town; that has done us irreparable hurt in our manufactures of wool—Since the Declaration, they have met Pompi Gratia, and yet reduced from two to one; restrain them and you increase them—A Bishop, in the northern parts, has told him, that, since the Declaration, many have come into the Church—This Bill is for that end.
Lord Fitzharding (fn. 1).] Can testify many of these things —Knows many Papists that are Justices of the Peace in Ireland, and has sat upon the Bench with them—Colonel Talbot has a troop of horse there, so has Lord Clanrickard.
Earl of Arran (fn. 2).] Knows of a great many Popish Recusants that are Justices there—The Papists offered an affront on the fifth of November, a solemn day, to the Mayor of Clonmell—Colonel Richard Talbot has a troop of horse there—So many Papists in command and trust there, a great Grievance to that kingdom! Never a parish of ours but has one or more Popish Priests in it; and shall, as occasion serves, farther inform the House—He has been told, that they have exercised Popish jurisdiction, in an episcopal manner, in Ireland.
Sir Edward Massy.] The Oath of Supremacy has been administered to some of them, and has had ill effect; in Tipperary the Duke of Ormond suffers no Priests, but there are in all other places—They said, they should have their religion entire, and would have their lands again—The King sent his letter to the Lord Lieutenant, signifying, that it was never in his heart to alter either the settlement or the government, and orders him to let it be known in the kingdom; so he hopes that has been pretty well allayed—For the business of Clonmell, the Mayor did lay about him, and quieted the tumult—Produces a letter informing him, "That at * * * * there was a great concourse of people; the Constables, when the guards came, told them, "that Mass was said there, and the people wondered they should be interrupted;" but upon search, no indulgence was found from the King to have public Popish meetings." You see, by this letter, they are confident they may do any thing. The fourteenth of June last, one hundred and fifty four Priests met five or six thousand people, some well armed, and shot at those that came to suppress the meeting—They had Popish authority, and printed several things tending to the Roman jurisdiction—Knows no body that is a Popish officer, but Colonel Richard Talbot—Has seen two or three thousand people at a time, besides the other number spoken of.
Mr Powle.] By what he has already observed, Ireland must be in a dangerous condition—We have that Kingdom by Conquest, and generally they are under Popish jurisdiction, and not to be preserved but by the power of the Conqueror—There has been a general design to set up the Popish and Irish interest, to out the Protestant and English—Knows that we are to present the grievances of the King's meanest subjects, and that the King is ready to redress them—Presents the Act of Cromwell, wherein the Irish have free power to enter into all trade, which gives them intercourse with foreign nations—If the Irish are thus brought into garrisons (as all Corporations are) they may by this have the military power; and by being of Corporations they will have the Magistracy, and the chusing Parliament-men, and so have the Civil power too—An Order of Council also there is, to forbear any prosecution of Civil actions against persons that have done wrongs in the Rebellion; all the King's subjects are forbidden it, and a farther promise in the next Parliament for a general oblivion—It seems, as Declaration Law has been set up in England, so it has in Ireland—The condition of the army in Ireland, ever since the Conquest, has been Protestant—Some part of that army has been disbanded, and reduced to be less—Whether the Irish have deserved that favour or no, he knows not—Lord Pore's regiment, and part of the Duke of Buckingham's regiment, drawn out of Ireland, and when arrived here, known Popish officers—Talbot put into command but to break the ice, for many others to follow—The army very much less, and yet the thirty thousand pounds deducted for saving charges, granted out into Irish Pensions; how safe that is, leaves it to your consideration—No Bishoprick of Ireland but has its Popish Vicar-General, and every parish has its Popish Priest to officiate, like the Minister of the parish—They durst not do this, but from great connivance somewhere —Peter Talbot, the pretended Archbishop of Dublin, has excommunicated several Papists for their allegiance. He was, at the desire of the King, expelled the Jesuits College in Brussels, for his undutifulness there to the King— He was intimate with Sir Henry Vane in those times—This is the best information of the Irish affairs he can have, and thinks he could not do his duty without informing the House; and presents the Papists printed papers in Ireland to be read.
Lord Obrien.] Knows a great part of what has been said to be true—Thinks that an Address to the King may remedy the thing—These people do not only what they do, as Papists, but they set up an authority there of foreign Princes—As to Commanders in the army, knows none but Colonel Richard Talbot—But, for other matters, hopes you will redress them.
Sir Philip Monckton (fn. 3).] The last Rebellion in Ireland ended in the death of the late King; and, if a stop be not put to this, it may be the ruin of this King—Would have Ireland secured, for his and our safety—They had not the liberty, and knowledge, of arms, as they now have, and they did great things then; there was but O Neal, and a few others, but now they have good Commanders—Talbot is like a General; and they have fifty Bishops in Ireland—Moves to have him secured immediately.
Mr Secretary Coventry.] Here are brought in generally grievances, by Authority, against Law; nothing is a grievance till you declare it unlawful. The King's Proclamation, relating to Ireland, is for no other Privileges, than what the Irish had in the late King's time, King James's, and Queen Elizabeth's; the vent of their cattle hither is taken from them; their trade is lost—The Declaration, about the Irish coming into Corporations, was of force only till rules were made by the Lord Lieutenant, which have been made, and are very satisfactory to the Protestants—He humbly represents, that that Proclamation from his Master is legal—The business of Clonmell he looks upon as a mad, foolish thing, but hears no man say it is by order from the King; but if any one can show that these are tolerated, they are but effects of it. For what is against Peter Talbot, let him answer for it—What the grievance is does not know, till the illegality of it be stated.
Sir Thomas Lee.] Is not well versed in the Law of Ireland, but, if he be rightly informed, Oaths of Allegiance and Supremacy ought to be taken, before a man can be a Justice of the Peace in Ireland; if he do not, it is contrary to Law—Coventry said, "that, in the Act of Settlement, there is a prohibition for the Papists to settle in Corporations, till farther rules and directions made by the Lord Lieutenant"—He concurs fully, that this may be in an Address to the King, to prevent the growth of Popery there, as well as here—Would prevent their coming into Corporations; but if he takes the rules right, they must take Oaths, with a power to the Lord Lieutenant to grant particular Dispensations, which he would have cautiously granted—Moves for an Address to the King, things being much altered since Queen Elizabeth's time; they are very different now, the jurisdiction of the See of Rome being exercised by authority—Hopes, by this Address, to find that kingdom in a better condition at our next meeting.
Sir Robert Howard.] What you have before you is sufficient to ground an Address upon to the King, for his care of suppressing Popery—No doubt but that much exorbitancy has been committed, by the ecclesiastical part of Romish jurisdiction, much the more pleasant and profitable—Would have Gentlemen so prepare the Address, either to the examination of the thing, or the Law.
Colonel Birch.] Would never have begun with this business of England and Ireland, was not he resolved to have gone through with it—The intercouse of Ireland and England is lost; where they trade a penny here, they trade a pound in France, and other foreign places—Does not understand Latin very well, if he hears it read well—(Reflecting upon the Clerk's ill reading the papers, given in by Mr. Powle, relating to Peter Talbot's ecclesiastical authority) That tells you of the Pope's authority on this side the water—Those that are to draw up the Address, he hopes, will take care to secure these active persons—We cannot believe but that the King will go with us in this business; we need not doubt in the least, but that the King will give us an Answer to our Address.
Sir Thomas Meres.] You have a complaint of an Archbishop Talbot, and a Soldier Talbot; you had complaint of these persons the last Session—In all these points you have agreed to go to the King before—We are every Session troubled, and we trouble the King, with Addresses, and still the thing is not done; we must now see the thing done—For the soldiers, would not have that to mix the Question.
Sir Thomas Clarges.] It is said "it is not a grievance unless illegal;" but Empson and Dudley's case was a grievance, and that was executing the penal Laws—To say, "that in Queen Elizabeth's time, King James's, and King Charles's time, some of the Romish Religion were in command, and Justices of the Peace in Queen Elizabeth's time;" it must be considered, that when they were so, there was no national Rebellion; the late general and national Rebellion had scarce ten men involved in it—When the Rebellion began there, a Parliament was sitting, and, instead of suppressing it, they rather countenanced it—Considering that he, who is now Chancellor of Ireland, is an Archbishop, believes some great surprizes there from hence, things else could not be as they are—Consider the season these things are done in; now thirteen companies of foot, and six troops of horse disbanded there, seventeen or eighteen companies drawn out for Lord Pore's and the Duke of Buckingham's regiments, and after such discouragement to Protestants, thirty thousand pounds a year, saved by these mens remove, disposed of in Pensions to Rebels, or some of them—The King is abused in it, and should be informed of it—Eight years ago an Archbishop has been met there with twenty followers—In the late King's time, no pretended Bishop could make Priests there; the Law to Priests not so penal as here; but that they should have such public jurisdiction, he scarce believed it, till he heard it here—The Irish are the most priest-ridden people that are; but if the Popish party come into the Magistracy there, we must look to that—Peter Talbot was once sent for by this House; he was degraded in Flanders for abusing the King, and he is so insolent now, that some great mark ought to be set on him—Would have all dignified Clergy removed from thence, and the troops ordered back for the peace of the kingdom—Would have the business committed.
Mr Attorney Finch.] Finds every man for the Address; hopes it will be with that prudence that carries duty with it—Sees little notice taken of the advantage gained in Ireland by the Papists, five millions of acres being gained by the Rebellion; no expedient ever found, by either perjuries or forgeries, that the Papists have gained above one million and a half of acres—There is no Corporation upon which Popery can be planted, but with great difficulty—After all this, believes not one Priest more in Ireland than ever was, but thinks them more vain, foolish, and pragmatical than ever before—Nothing would gratify Ireland more than your Reformation, that they might be rid of many of them—Ireland wants not Laws, and if every little drunken quarrel betwixt Papist and Protestant must be taken notice of here, you will have work enough—Three hundred years ago, it was præmunire to act under the Charter of the See of Rome; by the old Laws, in Sir John Davis's reports, they were suppressed—They would now show themselves better Catholics than their fathers—Advises that the Address to the King may be, "that he would see himself obeyed, and that no foreign power may be owned."—When we ask for too much, we have the less hope of success—To send for Talbot hither, would be to send for him to be hanged, drawn, and quartered—The army is always sufficient to keep them quiet; and as for the Pensions, no man will think much of the King's rewarding a repenting sinner—There is but one Catholic Officer in the army—All agree for an Address, but would have it with all modesty and humility.
Mr Vaughan.] One Proclamation was in general from hence, for persons to exercise their trade; the other is to exempt them from suits—Has heard that Talbot has but a troop, but those in it are able to raise twenty thousand men—The Attorney has painted Peter Talbot's doom, and he deserves it—Excommunicating the King's subjects for their allegiance is unpardonable—If any two Dissenters here had made such an insurrection, as is complained of in Ireland, the whole party would have had the blame and reflection.
Mr. Powle.] How many hundred times has it been complained of in Parliament, that the King has pardoned offenders too frequently, thereby emboldening them, though the King has power by law to pardon? The power for Catholics to come into Corporations in Ireland is unlimited; whether that be lawful, by the Act of Settlement, without special Dispensation from the Lord Lieutenant, leaves it to your judgment; with a deterring men from following their legal actions—Finds the diminishing the army to be very perilous—The Irish grow insolent, and less English strength is not consonant with good policy—The public treasure of the nation is not fit to be employed to private uses—Though the Irish Clergy are vain and foolish, yet their insolence is grounded upon some countenance allowed—Would not diminish our complaints, so as not to have them understood by the King.
Mr Attorney Finch.] Let this House judge, as wise men, what would be done in this case—Our Act of Oblivion extends not to Ireland; but the English Act will not exempt you in the quarters of the Rebels. Irish Rebels may be sued; but the English Rebels, that have plundered, may not. Where suits are stopped on one side for a party, and let open for another, thinks the exemption from being sued illegal; but then, how necessary, leaves it to you.
Mr Swynfin.] The exercise of this dangerous Popish authority, and the lessening of the English interest, by letting them into Corporations by a non obstante, are the two heads comprehended in your Debate—People with out doors know it; and would have the Address upon particular Complaint, and Debate thereupon, to the weakening the English interest there.
Sir Thomas Littleton.] Now the House is in a good disposition, desires the thing may be off our hands—Now shortly will come down the Bill of Popery, and Friday you have ordered for the Tax—The rest is a single point, not breaking into particulars, as this has done.
Mr Garroway.] Thinks him in the right; you represent, only to lay these things before the King, not doubting of his redressing them—Desires to enumerate them all now, and draw them all in one Address.
Sir Robert Carr.] You intend quieting of Ireland, but you must consider your reputation in this House—Colonel Talbot has served the King in the rebellion in Ireland, and has served the King in the rebellion here—It is said, "he is Sollicitor for the Papists in Ireland, and it may be for ill men;" but to ruin a man unproved, and a man of reputation! Let us not make a precedent, to reach a man you would not reach; upon common same to do this, makes him think there is something more against him—Good fortune may sometimes be a crime.
Mr Secretary Coventry.] Differs from Carr—The whole Debate of the House is grounded upon the assertion of some of the Members—There is no law against his troop of horse, a man of no ill actions; and to forbid him the kingdom for that, before you put a mark upon him! Let it be asserted what he has done, in particular, illegally; the bare saying "he is a Sollicitor for the Catholics," is no ground, but what ill he has done for them—As he may have done ill, so he has done good, in Ireland and Holland.
Sir Thomas Lee.] It is said, "there is nothing in particular against this person;" whether this person being now in actual command, and the taking public notice of it, is a thing insecure for that kingdom; by Law he takes it to be so already—By Law, no convicted Recusant can come within four miles of the Court, without the King's special command; and the notion is, for "Talbot's having no access to his Royal Person," to which he is made incapable already by the Law of England.
Sir Thomas Higgins.] Is informed, that he has Protestants in his troop, and is sure he has a Protestant in his bed; and has heard he keeps a Protestant Chaplain in his family—Would not have you so severe as to brand a person, when there is nothing against him but same, he having served the King both abroad and at home.
Sir John Duncombe.] Those that know Talbot, separate him from this notion now in Debate, and look upon him as a gallant man—It is a severe thing to be named in the House of Commons, and he may fall out to be the single man named here—You have said enough to give him caution how he carries himself.
Sir Thomas Clarges.] When the House was so sensible of this person the last Session, wonders why now he should be exempted—He has been in Ireland, but will not say what he has heard there; but would hear any man tell him, in what regiment, and under whom he served, against the rebels—He has heard that a Protestant has been displaced to put him in, which discourages the rest—It will be made out, that he procured a Commission under the Great Seal, to enquire into all the estates of Ireland—Would have the thing committed at large.
Mr Waller.] Accusation ought to be free, and may be allowed free and open; but to commit a man, and not charge him, hard—Papist is a crime, that makes him liable only to the laws in being against him; to blemish and speak ill of a man, is dangerous.
Mr Powle.] Will not only be as tender of the lives of men, but of their reputation, as he would be of his own—Because there is but one Papist in command in Ireland, would have him turned out, to be none there—To that of being "named in this House," would not have him countenanced here; and after having him "named here the last Session with so many marks upon him," it is a strange boldness in him to take military command since—Should you countenance people that presume to send an Ambassador to their own Prince, naming himself Agent for the Catholics of Ireland?—Appeals to the Privy Counsellors—If so, he hopes this House will set a mark on him—Whoever desires you not to impeach a man, desires you not to punish him—5 Hen. IV. Complaint was made to the King, in Parliament, of his Confessor; the King, though he said he had nothing against him, yet, upon the desire of the Commons, would put him out of his service, and removed him. 29 Hen. VI. Somerset and Dudley the same—Dr Turner impeached the Duke of Buckingham upon common same.
Sir William Thompson.] This Proclamation was for the safety of Coals during the war; the city gave charge to their Commanders not to take a penny; they had no more than what was voluntarily given; the imposition was never commanded.
Colonel Strangways.] The city says, no money was taken; they may thank the Parliament for it; but hears of bonds taken—Necessity for fire is a great matter; so he hopes that necessity will be taken away.
Mr Powle.] There is a Proclamation likewise "requiring all the King's subjects, upon any injury received from the King's soldiers, to complain to the Officer for justice; and if he does not do it, the next Justice of the Peace to take the examination, and certify it to the Lords of the Council, where the King will take care of the thing"—He knows of no exemption any man has from the course of the law; the law has not this course, but when Hannibal ad portas, which, he thanks God, is not the case now—This may introduce martial law; for the Lords of the Council cannot hear every complaint, and will refer it to the Court-martial. (The Proclamation was read.)
Sir John Duncombe.] This often happens to what is intended for the best, it has the worst construction. Complaint upon the place first, and so to the Justice of Peace, that the Officer may not abuse the King, the King will hear the Officer—The Proclamation does not say, "the Justice of Peace shall not do his duty," who is as much at liberty as before—There is no ill intention in it—By this, upon the quarters, speedy justice may be done.
Sir Thomas Meres.] A country fellow is cut on the pate, and he must go to the Officer, who is, by this Proclamation, the Justice of the Peace, and the Justice the Officer's Clerk. Possibly the Officer may not write well, though a good soldier, and may have need of a Clerk—But would have this thing explained, for the case of the people.
Mr Garroway.] Since Sir Richard Temple spoke in defence of the thing, he finds it worse. If the Officer has power, so has the Justice of Peace, and they may fall together by the ears—Would not mix power with the Officers.
Mr Vaughan.] Commends Sir John Talbot's zeal (who gave an account of his proceedings in justice-affairs in his company) but not his justice. Nulli negabimus, nulli differemus, &c.—This Proclamation is against Magna Charta; here is great delay of justice; there may be ill consequences of it, though the King had no ill intention in it.
Mr Secretary Coventry.] You are at war, and let no man say it is a sea war only; it is war, and the Hollanders may land here. War cannot be maintained without soldiers; and no Gentleman can say, that soldiers were ever managed with less trouble to the people.
Mr Powle.] Proclamations issue out usually with the word "rogamus," which is not "to command"—Serjeants have been sent for Justices, that have not obeyed the Proclamation; the soldier is still a subject, and not exempt from the law—The Justice of Peace is made a hackney (and you make him break his oath by suffering this Proclamation) to the soldier—Put it all together, and it is a direct prohibition and discountenancing of the law; and hopes you will petition the King to recall it.
Sir Thomas Clarges.] Lockhart, recommended by a great Lord of Scotland, his character; he was son of a Lord of Session, and raised himself under the Hamiltons; when the Duke of Hamilton came into England, he was a Major in that army; at that time he married Cromwell's niece, and held intelligence with Cromwell—Was forbidden Sterling when the King was there—There were but three false in Scotland to the King, and he was one: He commanded Dunkirk for the Usurpers, and was bitter enough before the King's Declaration from Breda—When the Rump was here, Lockhart was found so dextrous, that he prevailed with Mazarine that the King should not be looked on at St John de Luz—Leaves the man to the consideration of the House how fit for employment.
Sir Thomas Lee.] Hopes the King will be moved to disband these, when the war shall be ended; wishes the Scots and Irish had been transported rather to Scotland and Ireland, than called here to burden us; they would do better in their own country; and those raised in England would do better for tillage, servants wages rising every where.
Tuesday, March 18.
[After Debate, an Address was ordered to be prepared to be presented to his Majesty, representing the danger of the English Protestant Interest in Ireland, and directions were given to insert several other Grievances in the said Address.]
Wednesday, March 19.
Mr Waller.] Usury, during the time of Popery, was unlawful, as supposed to be against the Law of God. We know not the Will of God but by his two Books, the Law of God and the Law of Nature—A man gives away all he has, for his liberty, to summa potestas—He may do and take what he will from his body, but his mind cannot be given or taken; he may command me not to speak my mind, and not to do my mind, and, in a word, to be hypocritical: Though this be a violence in general, it will be a violence but upon a few—In the Inquisition of Spain, a few shall suffer rather than many. Tacitus calls it "a good Government for a man to do what he will, and speak what he thinks."—Restraint is against the genius and whole complection of the nation—Let these Dissenters alone, and people will despise them; punish them, and the people [will] have compassion for them—The Quakers suffered bravely, and were the more esteemed; the persecuted party ever gets uppermost—In Queen Mary's time those of the reformed religion were persecured, and they soon got uppermost. In Queen Elizabeth time, in our times, "Prelacy and Popery" were coupled together, and people flocked to Mr Cunning's congregation—Neither sons of Cavaliers nor Cavaliers were admitted into the Convention, and yet they brought in the King, because that was then the persecuted party —If you believe the King, this liberty has kept Peace, and you have had proof of it—This Bill is according to the Law of God, Law of Nations, and Complection of the Nation, and he would pass it.
Sir John Duncombe.] Appeals, if ever any thing in England of persecution to Dissenters—Waller had liberty in his own house, and his friends, by former Acts—Nothing now persecuted but Popery, and therefore, by his argument, Popery must thrive and be uppermost—This Bill is quite different from the Law of God—Where are the persons that must visit these congregations, and examine and inspect what doctrine they teach? This is not according to the Law of God; Smiths, Shoemakers, and Coblers preach. If this be according to the Law of God, he must read the Bible again—Would have Gentlemen tell him, that are so much for this Bill, in what part of the world the Church has no power to enquire what men preach? By this consequence, you will leave them to say what they will—Law after Law, Reason after Reason; has been against them these twelve years, and is against the Bill now.
Sir Charles Harbord.] Josephus, notoriously known, tells us, "that the two sects of the Jews, the Saducees and the Pharisees, held, the one Spirits, and the other no Spirits, nothing more contrary; but they never divided, they were all united as to the public Government"—A book, lately published, "of the Rise and Progress of the Netherlands (fn. 4)," tells you, that mighty things have been done there by what you intend in this Act; the severity of Spain, and their Plantations, have ruined them, and will us, if we look not to it—In our maritime towns we have not the sixth part of the people—The populous places of Brabant, by this persecution, have been dispeopled, and Holland has got sufficiently by it, and so did we—He confesses that he has communicated with them in Holland, and will do it again—He has had as good advice, and as learned upon it, as any man can give him, which held it lawful—Hopes this people that have Ease by the Bill will occasion you to continue it.
Sir Philip Warwick.] You have the Genius of the Nation, God, and the Complection of the People, spoken to—As to the Genius of the Nation, till Popery made us all afraid, he has endeavoured to make the foundation of the Church so full as to abide a good superstructure—Look upon the Jewish story of the sects, and they were never [there] till the time of Captivity, and never [here] till our Rebellion, till the Temple was shaken. Morality is not so planted in man, but that Customs and Constitutions destroy all that; Cain and Abel owed duty to Adam—Libera mens overthrows all Christianity. Christians at first were but a body of men, and they planted the Church, and Excommunication in the Church; and he was no Christian that was out of it—Never were men, by nature, either Jews or Christians. By this liberty you will lose all Registers, Marriages, and Genealogies. Let not great words make a noise; you give them liberty, and not barely indemnity—He is perfectly against the Bill.
Colonel Birch.] Doubts not but the people will be sheep, quiet and peaceable; and had it been only to mark them in the forehead, he is not against it—Doubts not but in a short time we shall see that the enforcing Laws upon these people, and crying out against the infallibility of the Pope, are not consistent—You would not have the Papists govern you, and that is not a persecution of them.
Dr Burwell.] They grow numerous: If you pass this Act, you give away the peace of the nation—A Puritan was ever a rebel; begin with Calvin—These Dissenters made up the whole army against the King; the destruction of the Church was then aimed at—Pray God it be not so now!
Sir John Birkenhead.] There was not a Pharisee till the fall of the Persian Monarchy; the Dispensations then were to the Proselytes of the Gate, viz. Strangers; that is the true case of the Jews—Subscription of the Clergy is "omnibus his articulis;" by this Subscription in the Bill, they will have twenty-six of the thirty-nine Articles left out, subscribing only the doctrines; you have not in the Creed ten articles of it, nor ever thought so. Had you a list of these men you ease, the King might have apprized [you of] some; now you will have Preachers that have had their hands in his father's blood—Here are two thousand of these Preachers already, and there may be ten thousand more—Shall the old officers of the army count numbers and know persons? They may come like Venner, [the fifth Monarchy-man] with their arms.
Sir Robert Howard.] Will not trouble you with the rabbinical law, nor history; but offers to consider, that one time you were against this, and now are changed, thinking it more fitted and calculated for the nation—The Parliament must do something at all times—They are not such enemies as is said; the Act of Oblivion has made a grave for that—Will you now crush the expectation of the nation in this thing? Thoughts are active in mens minds, when they have hope for something—Should have thought of making the King's Declaration a Law for a time; but that being not to be done, will you not compose people's minds at home, when all abroad is in distraction?—If this Bill be too much, or too little; if matters be too short in it, you may lengthen them; if inconvenient, you may alter them—You will leave, by laying the Bill aside, as much disorder in the imaginations of the people, as in the thing itself; therefore would pass the Bill.
Mr Secretary Coventry.] In the main, we may fling out this Bill, or keep it, and not offend the Law of God—There is some inconvenience as to Toleration; indifferent without limit—Does think the honour of the House engaged by voting and acting; he hopes it may be mended in the Lords House, and with that hope sends it up.
Thursday, March 20.
A Message from his Majesty was read by Mr. Secretary Coventry, to this effect: "That the King intends a recess on Thursday next [the 27th instant] and would have the House prepare such Bills [of importance] as are before them (fn. 5), against that time, as well that of the Supply, as others."
Mr Attorney Finch.] This Bill seems to him not good for the King, Subject, nor Citizen; no Freeman can have benefit of Prizage, if not resident within the city, by a Statute of Henry VIII. If you carry it to foreigners, out of London, their absence loses them their Prizes, though Freemen—Let not the trade of wines be driven all over England, by such as are not Freemen of London.
Mr Garroway.] The Freemen, if not burnt out of London, would never have gone out of London; there are no convenient houses for them, most of them being small, and for shops; and they must trade only to London.
Sir Thomas Clarges.] Great complaint was made, when the Tax-Bill passed, by the Citizens, for abatement; and that persons living out of town had no chargeable offices in the city, and paid little to the tax, and yet traded—Three thousand houses empty; no want of this; this will make some farther encouragement to dispeople London.
Sir William Thompson.] If Freemen of London have Prizage, that wine pays no duty of Butlerage to the King—People that go out of the kingdom have no Prizage—If you pass the Bill, the King will have the duty, otherwise they will have it that have the patent of Prizage.
Friday, March 21.
Mr Garroway.] Desires that the Money-Bill may not be read till Tuesday next, because you have the Bill of Popery, with (fn. 6) Amendments, returned from the Lords, where he hears we have been strangely represented—We are all concerned to see this Bill of Popery dispatched, and to clear the reputation of this House—Therefore would have the Money-Bill, for the present, laid aside.
Mr Secretary Coventry.] 'Tis very reasonable that the fears and jealousies of Popery should be removed, but would not defer the Tax-Bill so long—Would go upon the Bill of Popery to-day, and would not have the King think we take any thing ill from him, who has promoted this Bill so much in the House of Lords, by his countenancing it.
Sir John Coventry.] Hopes in time we may make this Bill of Popery a good one—This Bill has had hard passage hither again: If we believe common fame, it nearly miscarried in the Lords House—Many more Grievances may come betwixt this and Tuesday, and would have that day for the Tax-Bill.
Mr Powle.] Hopes that our zeal for this Bill is not looked upon as an offence to the King, but acceptable to him—"Common fame!" No man can nominate on the sudden, who—This discourse cannot be without some fire; in time it may come out, and those Gentlemen will tell you, when they can, where they had it—Moves for Tuesday, and hopes no ill intentions can be made out of it.
Sir John Duncombe.] Would have you look at the end you would be at—Go upon this Bill from the Lords; you are masters of your Orders—Go and ask satisfaction of the King for your Grievances, and he is sure you will have it.
Sir Robert Carr.] Finds no difference among Gentlemen in the thing. 'Till we read the Amendments the Lords have sent down, we cannot tell whether satisfactory or not; we may possibly agree at a Conference. Why will you do things that may look like dislike, when it is not? Would not have a blemish on the Supply; do the one and not the other.
Colonel Birch.] Hears much said of "common fame" —It seems to be now the Lord Keeper, Bishop Williams's case, in 1614, or 1616—"Common fame from the House of Lords!"—Would go with safe steps for the King and kingdom; one thing is before you, that the King may not think we stop his business—Would have this Tax Bill for Tuesday, and hopes by that time we shall give such advice, as may secure the King and kingdom—Stands up to remind you that this is a parliamentary way of "common fame."
Sir Courtney Poole.] Thinks we are upon such a point that we have reason to think it will startle the King—"Common fame" is not a right way for the Lords or the King, therefore would not insist upon it.
Sir Thomas Meres.] Tells the Speaker that he turns the Question to another thing—He would have the Question for the Bill of Popery, and the other Question, for Tuesday, firsted and seconded—Demands whether he will be pleased to own that to be the Question; and demands whether he can deny that that Question was firsted, seconded, and thirded?
Mr Cheney.] There has been something on your hands these two or three days, which is to be ready with the Tax, " the Grievances"—Would not put a certain day for the Tax, and doubts not of redress of Grievances in due time.
Mr Powle.] Gives an account of the " Address about Grievances," which cannot be finished till the Committee can see the inspection into the affairs of Ireland, the Secretary not having been attended, and could not be dispatched—This is not for the service of the King, his satisfaction, and good of the nation, and therefore we cannot in conscience part with the Money-Bill, till that business of Ireland be determined; but he has reason to take hold of things of "common fame," when some great Officers have told the King, "that, if the Money Bill passed not, the King may be supplied otherwise."
Lord Cavendish.] Thinks those Bills now depending, to quiet the minds of the King's subjects, as necessary as any whatsoever—There are Grievances of an high nature, besides what are already depending; some are the root of all those Grievances, the authors of these disturbances, and those are evil Counsellors—Because other Grievances are not named, hopes people will not think there are not more, therefore moves for Thursday for "Grievances."
Lord St. John.] Should "common fame" have weight, you would have much to do; therefore would lay it aside—As to the Bill of Popery before you, he has so great love and tenderness for the King's person, that, without this Bill, neither the King nor we can be safe—Would have a little time to consider these things, and would have Tuesday.
On the Lords Amendments to the Bill of Popery: "The Proviso of Peerage: Office of Inheritance, or for Life, granted by the King, or any of his Predecessors, to enjoy it, notwithstanding this Oath: Peers to take the Oaths the Parliament sitting only."
Mr Powle.] He cannot agree with the Lords, because it may make a Question, what a "public office" is—Takes not the King's and Queen's servants to be "public "offices"—Knows not what rule of Law can determine it—Would not agree to "public offices."
Mr Secretary Coventry.] The Queen has many Gentlemen that made no doubt of being with her; "the Queen's servants," in rigour, are "the King's servants" —It will be a mighty affliction to the Queen—Many have been long with the King, and served him in great dangers with great fidelity; the King would be loth to have them taken from him.
Sir Jonathan Trelawney.] Would agree with the Lords Amendments "to the Queen's and the Duke's family;" to "the Test of the Doctrine of Transubstantiation;" would also agree with the Lords Amendments—The Duke has many Protestant servants, and most are so—Some Papists have been long with him, and in great dangers for him—The Duke has deserved well from this House and Nation, has fought two of the greatest naval battles, and exposed his person, and hopes you will not deprive him of his servants.
Lord Cornbury.] Be pleased to remember, that the Proviso he brought in for "the Queen's servants," was not so happily worded as he could have wished the thing; the thing desired is so reasonable. Certainly if the Queen designed more Papists, she would have had them before now; the number is few, and they are persons of credit and merit; the King gives her liberty to chuse. As far the greater numbers are Protestants, so she is as kind to us Protestants, as to the Papists; therefore would agree—Her servants are sworn to herself in the Oath of Service; they also swear Allegiance to the King —Consider, that she brought a portion of five hundred thousand pounds into England, besides many other advantages.
Sir John Birkenhead.] Almost admires that any man would deny the Queen what he would not be denied himself—Should not we think it hard, if we should marry a Princess abroad, of our kingdom, that she should be denied the choice of her servants? Put it into the scale; it is the rule of the Gospel; make it any man's case—It will be hard otherwise, therefore would agree with the Lords.
Sir Charles Harbord.] This Queen has brought more to the Crown of England, than any six Queens before ever brought in money—She is a person of the most inoffensive carriage that ever was—The principal person about her is Lady Suffolk, and she is a Protestant—Knows not the rest.
Colonel Birch.] Is for the rule of "doing as we would be done by," but would know what we do—It is said, "most are women, therefore safe"—It is said, "that all her servants are sworn." Would have the roll of them brought, that those that are sworn, by such a day, may continue in.
Mr Attorney Finch.] Would agree, because it is a degree of severity this House never insisted on. This House never questioned how far Articles of State or Marriage; never judged them—As your Address to the King is about the Proclamation, &c. natural-born subjects cannot stay—It is a degree of severity that never was before. She came over with expectation of other usage than barely Articles, and having had more, it is hard. The best part of her conversation being her Religion, this may put her upon a severity of giving no quarter to her Protestant servants—If you be for a certain time, you must not look farther back than this day—You have advanced far to a suppressing of Popery, when you have reduced people into a corner, where you may find them, and have them.
Mr Vaughan.] It is said, "that this of the "Queen's servants" is a greater mark of severity than ever was before"—He thinks it one of the errors of the Long Parliament, that they went no farther with the "then Queen's servants"—Our business is to add to the laws against Popery, and not to repeal them—If I come into France, I have civil protection; those that came into England with the Queen, under safe conduct, have so; but more English Priests than Foreigners, is against law—You do not hear of Murderers or Felons in Newgate, but a Priest is with them—Wishes the Duke had no Papists about him, they do harm; and would have all men here leave affections at the door.
Sir Robert Carr.] One has told you, how few Papists the Queen has in her family, and what encouragement Protestants about her have—The Queen desires not to increase the number of them—Putting the Queen upon this trouble may put her upon sending for Portugal servants, and put out the Protestant—Divers Papists have served the Duke at sea, and beyond sea—It crosses not your Bill; and other people cannot be encouraged to crowd under them.
Sir Richard Temple.] Your "adhering" in this point will cross your end for more Protestants—When the Queen sees these few removed from her, he knows not the consequence; Articles of Marriage are Law in all nations—If you agree not to this Proviso, she is put upon greater hardships than any other subjects, not to have whom she will about her—If you restrain it, would have it to those in ordinary only, and from such a time.
Sir Thomas Higgins.] The "Duke's servants" you will reach under the notion of the "King's servants;" they are sworn to him; they have fought for the kingdom with the Duke—We ought to pray God to inform the Queen, but you go about to lay an affliction upon her.
Sir Robert Southwell.] Hears of the Treaty the King has made with Portugal upon the Queen's marriage; she has brought Tangier and Bombay in portion; she is successive, and her right entire to that Crown, in the East and West-Indies, very considerable.
Sir Thomas Lee.] Wonders to hear the "Articles of Marriage" called "Law," and "that become Law"—We could not find the Declaration to be so. 3 James, 4 chap. The Parliament, in that preamble, thought the kingdom so unsafe by reason of the Papists, that they were consined within four miles of their dwellings, without leave; not to come to Court, by that Statute, unless commanded. And now you will let them, by this Proviso, reside in the Court, either of the King or Heir apparent—If once the hole be made, knows not how wide it will grow—Would keep the cloth as whole as we can.
Sir Thomas Meres.] You cannot mend the thing, for it is your own; no body has instanced but in the Queen; the argument of "Law" is given up as to "Articles" in that point; let us not, by Law of Courtesy, void another Law—We cannot give them greater encouragement.
Earl of Ancram.] Would not make, nordestroy, Laws by a side-wind. If you discourage the Queen, you will make an exclusive Law, in effect, for the Crown never to marry one of her religion (fn. 7), unless we may marry at home—The Queen's merit is so beyond his expression that he shall say nothing of it—Queen Elizabeth was a Protestant, and, besides having no reason to leave that religion, another title was set up against her by one of that religion; Papists her only enemies—Our Queen is of that religion; her example great to our religion—There is more a punctilio than danger in it, and he would agree with the Lords.
Colonel Birch.] If any Gentleman varies in his opinion, he tells you why—What he has heard now, "that Popish Princes must [not] marry with us hereafter," must alter his opinion—England's ruin was dated from the time of such marriages—Hopes, that seeing it will have that good effect, that no Popish Prince will marry with us, it will be better than he thought of, and now he is more for it than before—Would not agree to that part of it.
Sir Thomas Littleton.] Thinks you may agree with the Lords in toto, in the "Duke's Proviso;" he being a subject, it causes no marks of singularity—You have desired that some persons may be rewarded by the King; "the Queen's servants" are the King's—This is not so—Would not have you receive a Law particularly for him, and would not have any thing particular to him.
Mr Attorney Finch.] If you hope it in any information at the King's suit, remembers not that the Attorney ever did it, because no end of it; if he gives not the noli prosequi, which is but two shillings and eight-pence, there are thirteen pounds for a pardon.
Sir Thomas Lee.] The thing is not pardonable, and so no charge of thirteen pounds for a pardon; takes the thing, that the person is disabled, from the time of conviction, for that office, or any other.
Mr Vaughan.] If the Oath and the Tests are not taken, the office becomes void for want of them, and entitles another to them—Presumes that of indictments the hardest part of the Bill, if upon information.
Mr Powle.] It is a mistake in the Sollicitor; many penalties, in Statutes relating to Popery, go not to the King, but to the Informer and Poor; and yet the information is tam pro domino Rege, quam pro seipso—Would be satisfied from the learned Gentlemen in this point.
Mr Attorney Finch.] Some little penalties, not worthy of observation, go from the King to the Informer and Poor; but scarcely an Act of consequence with that example—If Dominus Rex ulterius non vult prosequi, make what information you will; if a pardon be precedent, the whole is pardoned, because no conviction of the offence—As long as Supremacy is in being you cannot restrain, though by the word Nusance.
Mr Secretary Coventry.] Would not give encouragement to these men—Taking off the King's part of the penalty will make them think it is no offence against the King—Where the King and kingdom are concerned, it is fit the King should have his share.
Mr Powle.] Those are to be punished that come into places at Court without the Tests; and those may easily obtain pardons—The Sheriff gives damages to the public by a false return; and therefore it is a natural argument that the King's pardon is not pleadable in an action of debt brought against him for that false return, and he would have this so.
Saturday, March 22.
Mr Swynfin.] "All present tithes and profits," not mentioned in the Bill, what they are; besides the uniting seventeen parishes into eight, and contracting the maintenance of the Ministers and laying a new charge on the whole city—The great argument is, that so many agree to it—Patrons have good reason to agree; the presentations before were small, and now they will be greater; and the Mayor has reason, because the Corporation may levy money at pleasure; but what the inhabitants will do he cannot imagine—The Uniting concerns parishes, and that will extremely alter the case for levies for the Poor and all other parish concerns, especially considering that the Bishop's see being there, the learned Prebendaries may be helpful to them without uniting them—Consider how many of the inhabitants are charged by chimney-money, trade, and excise, and whether you will lay another tax now? Agree to commit it "to unite, but not to lay any charge upon the inhabitants." It will be otherwise a dangerous Bill.
Colonel Strangways.] This is "a dangerous Bill" for those that oppose the Church of England, that they may preach placentia—As before the presentation was forty pounds a year, by this Bill it will be a hundred pounds a year—Would not have bonds taken for resignation; if they do, would have them punished—The Churchmen, it seems, by this Bill have care of souls as well as trade. Dissenters would have inconsiderable men there that they may baffle them—There is no Law for the Dean and Chapter to officiate—Would commit it.
Mr Secretary Coventry.] There are many reasons why you cannot, during the war; many of these Gentlemen, named in the Lords Proviso, have been sent for from beyond sea, and have quitted good employments there—They are of great use here; good engineers and good officers; and some of these have been men sent for particularly for some uses—Sees not what end you can have in it.
Mr Powle.] Cannot agree with the Lords in this Proviso—Does not think it convenient to give allowance to persons we know not, without knowing the service they have done—They have openly boasted themselves the King's best subjects—It would give them too great an advantage—They are out of the Act, by this Proviso, as well as all others; such persons are in better condition than before, and they have given us the occasion of all this trouble by their employment.
Mr Harwood.] Is Colonel Panton's (one of the persons named) very good friend and old acquaintance. But how many Protestants have served the King, without any particular mark of your allowance, and will you give it these?
Sir Richard Temple.] Every Baron, and so upwards, has a salary or fee from the King, in his patent of creation, then this Act will reach them; this Proviso is "singly quâ Peerage" to be exempted from the Tests, and not to bring them under the notion of Commons.
Mr Vaughan.] The office of Great Chamberlain is now annexed to the Earl of Lindsey's family (fn. 8), as formerly to the Earl of Oxford's.
Sir Thomas Lee.] Thinks that every man that takes employment, or office, and lives in the country, must go to the Quarter Sessions to take the Test; if our Session happens not right with our sitting here, he must go down into the country, unless you alter it to take the Test in the Chancery, or at the House door—Consider that it is not proper for both or either House of Parliament.
Mr Milward.] Your care is for offices, and grants by patent are so; as for offices, a man hath given the King five thousand pounds for an annuity for life, or years; you may as well take away a man's lands—Would have it mended thus, "all grants that depend not upon "offices."
Mr Powle.] Is willing to comply with the Lords, as to their "Peerage," but this comes to all persons whatsoever; your intention is to void all "Pensions"—Impenso et impendendo, was ever judged "a valuable consideration"—It destroys the Bill.
Mr Vaughan.] Any "Pension" that has quid pro quo, is "valuable," which he would have allowed; but a man may have one for going into France—As for the Pendrells, who were instrumental in the preservation of the King after Worcester fight, would name them particularly, but would not comprehend all by a general word.
Colonel Birch.] Knows of no "Pension"—If other persons had not served the King more effectually than this person Birkenhead names, things had not been at this pass—Let him give a list of names, and he will be for it.
Sir Thomas Osborne.] Lord Kinnoul had a right in Barbadoes, and for his resignation the King has given him one thousand pounds a year—Do you intend that this Act shall deprive him of it, under the notion of a "Pension?" It will not stand with your justice to do it.
Mr Garroway.] You have all things in prospect, not in retrospect, but the scheme of your Bill is to take off "Irish Pensions." That we may be rid of them, the King may give them money instead, and be rid of them.
Mr Attorney Finch.] There are "Pensions" of several sorts; there may be for life on "consideration," and some may be disabled from offices, where Pensions are Salaries for executing of offices—Thinks that humanity will be better for your reputation, than severity will be to your wisdom, in annulling these Pensions.
Mr Powle.] Likes not the Clause of making a Deputy ad libitum, to put out and in every week, if they please them not—Would have the words, "at their will and pleasure" left out, and have it, "as the King shall think fit."
Colonel Birch.] A Deputy, the less dependence he has, the better he does his duty—If beyond sea or sick, it is fit the person should have his Deputy; but to do it "at will and pleasure" makes it a more than ordinary dependence.
Sir John Duncombe.] A man may be ruined, and his posterity, being an Office of Inheritance, since, by fault of the Deputy, the office may be forfeited; therefore it is reasonable he should appoint his Deputy himself.
On the other part of the Proviso, "and those Subscriptions recorded," and on the Proviso "for persons beyond the Sea, or non compos mentis, or any married woman, not till after the death of her husband; persons at their return from beyond the Sea to take the Oath, at or before Trinity Term, 1673."
On the Proviso "of the office of Head Constable, Petty Constable, Headborough, &c. Steward of Court Leet and Baron, County Court, or Law Court, &c. Forester, Keeper of a Park, and Bailiff of a Manor."
Lord Cavendish.] Much of this Session has been spent to prevent the growth of Popery, and to take care that money may be raised for the King's supply; therefore would have his Majesty moved that it may not be disposed of, nor managed by [the Lord Treasurer] a person* so much suspected of Popery.
Mr Sacheverell.] You have been well moved—As the case now stands, we have struggled whether Protestant or Papist shall get uppermost—You are raising money, and we know into whose hands it is to come; one whom common fame renders one of the greatest favourers of the Popish interest of any man, and how secure in his hands we all know—Knows not how safe the King's person may be, when so considerable a sum of money shall be in such a hand; and if neither the King nor kingdom can be safe, we can do no less than move the King to remove such a person of danger from his presence, and such a trust—Has no desire of ruining any man, but the thing being of such importance, desires the King may be moved in it.
Colonel Sandys.] "Common Fame" brought Lord Strafford's fall—To the day of the death of the King, the Martyr, he was troubled at it—Moves that we may go off with all the calmness that can be, we being assured of the King's goodness to us.
Sir John Birkenhead.] Consider this "fame"—The person inclinable to Popish Faction—For that "fame" the Archbishop of Canterbury [Laud] lost his life; but the Papists rejoiced at it—This person can give you no more assurance of his Religion than the Test—'Tis of dangerous consequence to blast this person for rumour in the street, and would have the motion go no farther.
Sir William D'Oyley.] Would have Reformation of Manners, but no destruction of persons—You know his behaviour here, and how bravely abroad; he need say no more—The danger of him is not so considerable—The King must know every minute sum; and the King concerns himself in all things of the Treasury—Let the Motion die here.
Mr Mallet.] This Motion proceeds from noble ends—He points not at the person, but the Motion—It is for the disposing of money, and we are to see it well disposed of; and now is the time to consider, whether you will put this money into such hands—The person has not been named, but described—"Common Fame" is infallible—(laughed at.) Consider, these jealousies cannot arise out of nothing—Your money comes upon hard terms now—No Parliament ever exceeded this in liberality—It is worth your enquiry how this money shall be disposed of as you would have it—You do not act prudently if you put it into a person's hands that affects not our religion—If there be violent presumption upon him, you must secure your religion, and you will act as wise men, and not furnish your enemies—For want of information he informs you, that the Treasurer said, in the House of Lords, "that your Bill of Popery ought to be spurned out of that House as a dirty Bill"—You ought to look to your safety.