Grey's Debates of the House of Commons: Volume 9. Originally published by T. Becket and P. A. De Hondt, London, 1769.
This free content was digitised by double rekeying. All rights reserved.
Saturday, November 2.
Sir Thomas Clarges.] The Forces now in pay are 70,000 Horse, Foot, &c. I think the Nation cannot keep them. When we were at War with the two great Powers of the World, Holland and France, the Establishment was much short of that. Now the King is graciously pleased to come in to us to relieve us from Civil and Military Oppressions, I hope we shall be in that way and order as to have no extraordinary Forces. Though we are in a State of War, we need not above 25,000 men. Our conditions with Holland are upon the foot of the Treaty of Charles II, of mutual Alliance and Defence. If either party be attacked, we are to deal by mediation; and if we cannot compose, we are to assist with 8000 men, and are to come into the War in three Months. I think we ought not to continue the 8000 men—I know, none of the Allies are obliged to beat King James out of Ireland; we are to support that. I do not think it for us to take more upon us than we necessarily are obliged to. I think, 40,000 men may be taken out of this Establishment; I am sure a less number conquered Ireland in 1650. I profess, I am much in the dark, till I hear some proposition from the King of the State of the War for the next Year, and till we know the Obligation of Alliances. The Dutch Forces are given in 14,000. They are not all in Ireland, some are in Scotland. They are upon parole to keep up seventy in a Company, &c. and perhaps they are but thirty-two in a Company, and in a year they will be filled up; so that we have a chimerical Army. Let the Muster-master acquaint you farther.
Mr Garroway.] I see no certainty of the number of men in England, Scotland, and Ireland. I think the Account that has been transferred to you comes from the Muster-master, and the King is abused. I would go on regularly to the State of the War, what the King thinks fitting, and they to bring in where the men are; without the certain number of men, you know not how to provide. I think it fitter to apply to the Fleet, and retrench the Land-men. England knows no need of them. I believe the Money is not all spent. I think it may be embezzled. I never saw a worse Account—If we do not presently give Money, I would have some Vote to give Credit to the War. I would have the true State of the number of men; it is no matter whose Regiments they are. I would have Accounts brought here by somebody that will allow them, but I desire not to go blind-fold. Let the Money be rightly applied, and I will go with the highest, and I desire the King to give us the State of the War.
Sir Edward Seymour.] I speak to method, which is carried on with great uncertainty. Some may seem abuses of the Muster, and that is no part of your Order. It is "to consider the State of the War," and it is more pertinent, to consider the Numbers necessary to carry on the War the next year. If Gentlemen think England in a condition to carry on the War for themselves, and the Confederates, I am afraid they are mistaken. I believe, all Concurrence is little enough for what is necessary to carry on the War. I think you had good service from Clarges, who proposed retrenchments of the Dutch Forces: I am sorry that Englishmen are not fit for English Interest. If, for fear of an Enemy within you, you must have an Army, you will never be without one. I am sorry the Interest of England is said to be safer in foreign Hands, than English. If, by the Treaty, you are to provide for Holland 10,000 men, you are no farther obliged than till you come into the War; then that is a charge extraordinary. You that are come in at the last part of the day as Assistants, now are made Principals; and [they will] leave you out when it is their Interest—Upon another Debate to talk of suppressing Popery, and your Allies leave you—If you stick there, we must either suppress them, or they us. There are 7000 Danes designed for Ireland; a great sum is gone for them. I will not repeat the scarcity of Money; but how many Irish Gentlemen must fight for their own, and yet we send for foreign Forces, and give all we are worth for Ireland, and know not whether we shall be masters of it. I do think, that, as to the 8000 to be sent to Holland, you are not obliged to it. The Dutch Army is unnecessary, and I hope you will think of it.
Sir Thomas Lee.] I am of Seymour's Opinion, to begin with Ireland but, as for the Danes, I think there is a great deal of difference in the Charge betwixt them and Irish Gentlemen, who will not serve for common Soldiers, as the Danes. I hope we shall keep Ireland, when we have got its let us get it first. As for the 8000 men we are to supply Holland, at the same time those are withdrawn, they may withdraw their Fleet.
Sir Thomas Clarges.] We are now possessed of the whole Province of Ulster, where, by computation, are three Papists to one Protestant, and in Munster more Protestants, and I am well informed that a great body may be raised there, who will fight pro aris et focis. The best inducement to have the Danes is, that they should not go to the French.
Sir Robert Howard.] By this Debate, we shall find, that making too melancholy a prospect is to the advantage of our Enemies, but may be, upon serious Consideration, for our use. Should you, out of good husbandry, strike off 10,000 men from Ireland, I believe you will give great satisfaction to King James. Seeing you shrink in that, you may increase the French King's Resolution in supplying him. King James's Army in Ireland is supposed 20,000 Horse, and 30,000 Foot. The loss of 10,000 of ours there may have strange Effects.
Mr Garroway.] I am still of the same Opinion that this is the worst Account I ever saw in my life. When King James went away, he left 30,000 men, and we had 10,000 out of Holland. The English Arms are all lost; and now effective, rank and file, you have not 20,000 of these men left.
Major Wildman.] I would remove a mistake; we talk not here for the King, but for the Kingdom. I have heard a Doctrine preached here, "Take care we be not Principals in the War against France;" but against King James we are Principals in that War to defend us from Popery and Slavery. It has been the Doctrine of this House many years, that France is in the Bottom of all Slavery, and that was to be brought upon us. We are in a worse condition than the Confederates, and have need of all the Confederates against King James and France. The French King would have made conditions with Holland, and offered Money to divide Holland from us, with all offers of Trade, if they would have left us in the lurch, and not assisted the Prince of Orange; and they may still make Peace—I believe nobody here is inclined to treat with King James. We must have War upon us, and if we are wanting to ourselves, and give the least discouragement to the Confederates, they may leave us to ourselves to struggle with France and King James. It has been by the Treachery of late Princes that we have been brought to truckle under France, which has brought him to be able to oppose the greatest Powers by Sea, the English and the Dutch. I remember the time when the French durst not build a Ship without giving an account of it. I move that you would supply the King with what Forces are necessary for Ireland, and what may wholly suppress Ireland.
Mr Garroway.] I do not agree with him for so great a Supply. I do not think to lay a foundation for such a War as that the King of France should not build a Ship without our Knowlege. I believe, if it were not that the Crown of Spain would be in dispute, you never would have had the Company of the Confederates, and the Emperor would make Peace. I do believe that we cannot support the War above a year longer. Therefore say you will grant a Supply to carry on the War, and I am for it; but "that the French King has 40 or 50,000 men in Germany," I have heard it, but I believe nobody ever saw it. That the French King should have 200,000 men, and suffer Bonn and Mentz to be taken!—And possibly, if he had chopped 10,000 men into Mentz, they had done him more service than all he could do. I am free to make a provision for a good force. I care not what it costs us, but I would not be cozened.
Col. Birch.] It is not known to me, whether we are to have 30 or 40,000 men; that will be in due time. You may preserve Ireland and yourselves, if God Almighty does not take away your understandings; therefore I move, "That 40,000 men may be for the next year's establishment in Ireland."
Sir. John Guise.] You have been told of the former reducing of Ireland. The Forfeitures were taken of Papists Estates, and at three years value raised 320,000l. I move that you will consider some such way now.
Sir John Trevor.] The Question is, Whether you will consider the numbers of men, or a lump of Money for Ireland? I am for men, and if you appropriate not the Mohey, it may be applied either to the Navy, or the Dutch, and not for Ireland, and neither done at last. I do not understand that what is sent to you is an Answer to your Address. If you compute for 36,000 men, I would venture to give for 50,000. I am sure it is more proper for the King. We are not a Council of War, but Representatives of the People, to assist him. We are but to supply, according to the numbers of men; the King cannot else carry on the War vigorously. If you make not an end of the War this year, I know not how we can supply it another. I move "that the King may send us the State of the War."
Sir George Treby.] There is a necessity that Ireland should be reduced: I have no share of it when it is reduced, but I would have it reduced. I am not so vain as to say that France should be reduced, but I would suppress so great a Neighbour. Our consideration is for carrying on the War, but most discourses seem to depart from that rather than to pursue it. But I hear spoken of, our being delivered from a standing Army; we had a standing Army, but were delivered from it by the Duke of Albemarle [General Monk] But there is an absolute necessity of an Army, unless you would be annoyed at home, when you are defending your outworks. I hope those who are not for supporting the Government, will be reckoned amongst French and Irish. 'Tis said, "There are Mismanagements in the Accounts;" to which no man is a greater Enemy than myself. I have seen the time, when those who cheated the King were thought the best men. The Money we are to pay now is our Redemption-Money; for what we paid to beat our Enemies formerly, was spent upon dissolute persons at Court. I agree if we look to the Well-management of the Money, it gives double; and notwithstanding it is so good, it must be taken in its proper time, and not hinder what is for immediate safety—It has been said, "That the Emperor is not obliged to reduce Ireland;" but if he opposes France, he helps to reduce Ireland. There is a Meeting of the Confederates at the Hague the next Month (fn. 1), and when the King knows your Intentions, he will take his Measures accordingly; and till you declare how you will assist him, it is not possible for him to take his Measures. It is said, "We have Foreigners in the Nation, and that the Natives might be sufficient to preserve you;" but though Prorogation annulls "Votes" of Parliament, yet not "Acts." You have desired their Assistance, and given them Money. Denmark might have had better Terms from France; you will not entertain him, and he casts himself into the French King's Arms. We look upon them (as in great part) naturalized to our Interest. We were grieved with Popery; where was the Back? It was France gave the Back to that Edge, but instead of an "actual War," that we had given Money for, it proved an actual Peace, and we were choused of it. France heretofore was but an inland Province, and now is great at Sea—'Tis well to provide that all Malefactors be punished, that we may live well, but we must live before. What is wanting to this State of War? You would have some Estimate of the War; you have called for Accounts, for this Day's Work, and contented yourselves with all materials requisite, and believed you would accept this given as a State of the War; should you have more, it is but in order to giving Money. Now, having this before you, it is enough to inform your Judgments as proper to guide your Vote.
Mr Garroway.] Two Millions will not do the Charge, according to the Computation of Horse and Foot; but if you be pleased that it be added to the Revenue, it will do all your Business, and I believe you will be supplied fully.
[Resolved, That, for the reducing of Ireland, and joining, this ensuing year, with their Majesties Allies abroad, in a vigorous Prosecution of the War against France both by Sea and Land, a Supply be given to their Majesties, not exceeding the Sum of two Millions, to be added to the Public Revenue: Which was agreed to by the House, Nem. con.]
Monday, November 4.
Sir Thomas Jenner [attending at the Door, according to the Order of October 28 (fn. 2), he was called in to the Bar, and heard what he had to say to the Matters objected against him, and then withdrew. Journal of the Day.]
Mr Foley.] I was in Oxford, when Jenner sat upon the Commission for Magdalen-College. He was very severe upon Dr. Hough (fn. 3), and required great Bail of him. Some of his Predecessors have been hanged for less Crimes. The Judges keep the King's Conscience, and have betrayed their Trust. Commit him to the Serjeant, and then consider him in the Indemnity.
Mr Smith.] He thinks himself more an object of Favour, that he sat only in the last Ecclesiastical Commission, but I think him more criminal for that, seeing the ill effects of the former; for in the last there was more Authority of Oppression than in the former. An Excuse in this Case is rather a Justification. His Hand was as deep at Oxford as any man there. Dr Fairfax (fn. 4) said, "He hoped he should have remedy in Westminster-Hall for being dispossessed of his Fellowship." Jenner told him, "He should have little Favour there." Fairfax said, "He expected no Favour, but Justice there." Every man that acted there has been a public Injury to the whole Nation, as well as the particular Persons of the College.
Sir Robert Howard.] You have made a great noise about these men. Turning them back to the Law is turning them no where. The Statute of 25 Edward III has been endeavoured to be drowned by these men, in the Common Law, and from thence came the late Murders. Should all the Precedents of King James stand good Common LawPrecedents, of perpetual Imprisonments, and the King's Power to dispense with the penal Laws, I know not what the Judges will do as to Common Law, by these Precedents of the Ecclesiastical Commission, and the King's Dispensing Power. I move that you will proceed in Parliament upon these Offences, and finish the Relief that has been begun for the Nation, and reserve this man to the Act of Indemnity, or the Pains and Penalties.
Wednesday, November 6.
Sir Edward Seymour.] I find in the latter Clause of the Bill a Power in the King of dispensing, &c. If that be admitted, all the rest is nothing. I would advise not to part with the Money-Bill, till this be perfected; let it lie upon the Table.
Sir Edward Hussey.] There is a Clause in the Bill, that I do not understand; "That no Papist shall succeed to the Crown, none of the Church of Rome, and no Protestant shall be put by. If a Protestant be a reputed Papist, he shall be put by." Charles I was thought a Papist: Charles II by many was reckoned popishly affected; and I fear, as there was Spanish Gold stirring in Court and Parliament, in James I's time, why may not these things happen again? I hear of no Test to the King to distinguish him from a Papist; must the muzzle be set upon the King when the Council please? This may prevent a Lutheran from coming to the Crown, because he comes not up to all the Points of our Religion. I fear, it may be like the Bill of Oaths, which the greatest Lawyers of England understand not. There is a Clause in the Bill, "That the King shall not suspend Laws, &c." What if a murder be committed, and a man wrongfully condemned, shall he be hanged for want of the King's Power to pardon? I stand not up to oppose the Bill, but I would have it explained and moderated.
Sir Joseph Tredenham.] I hear that Major-General Ludlow (fn. 5) is come into England, and is in Town, and that his old accomplices do comfort, aid, and abet him. By Act of Parliament he is attainted, and is a declared Enemy to the King and Kingdom. To what end do we raise Taxes upon the People, but to support the Government? To what can these Persons pretend, but to bring us into the same Anarchy as formerly? Now we are setting things in order, they are contriving to make us Victims to their Passions. I am for the public security, and it is to that end I stand up. I would address the King to issue out his Royal Proclamation, to command him out of the Nation.
Marquess of Winchester.] I think it well moved. The Gentleman at the Bar tells you, that he walks in the Face of the Nation. 'Tis necessary the Gentleman should give you Information. I know nothing of the Person. My Family, I am sure, has suffered in King Charles I's time (fn. 6). I speak nothing of the man, but for your Justice.
Mr Hawles.] I do not see how Ludlow comes to be so considerable a man as that this House should address the King about him. Every private man may attach him. He is attaint upon Record. Many have been guilty of Murders; you have said so, and yet they walk abroad.
Mr Coningsby.] I think it the strangest thing that ever was heard of, a Parliament sitting, to suffer one to face you that is attainted by Parliament. Upon this extraordinary occasion, do an extraordinary thing, and address the King, as is moved.
Col. Birch.] I am in a new Perriwig, and pray let the House look upon me before I am heard. For this Person to come in the face of a Parliament, is a horrid thing, if it be so. I am curious to know whether he be here, or no. Pray let somebody avow him to be here before you make the Order.
[Resolved, That an humble Address be presented to his Majesty, That he will please to issue out a Proclamation for the apprehending Colonel Ludlow, who stands attainted of High-Treason, by Act of Parliament, for the Murder of King Charles the First: And that he will please to propose a Reward to such as shall apprehend him.
Ordered, That the said Address be presented to his Majesty by Sir Edward Seymour (fn. 7).]
Col. Tipping.] The late Chancellor Jeffreys died in his bed, with so much guilt of Murder upon him, and the House sitting. 'Twas he that voided the Charters, and backed the Judges in the Dispensing Power, and in it passed sentence on all your Laws and Liberties. He had his Hand in Lord Russel's and Col. Sidney's Blood, and executed Sir Thomas Armstrong, by a Rule of Court, expressly against the Statute of Edward VI. Innocent Blood he sought for, and condemned; as Mrs Lisle, for harbouring a Traytor knowing him to be such, and he knew he was not (fn. 8). He has raised his Estate on the ruin of the Laws. His Estate and Honour are the Price of your Blood. I move, That you will attaint him.
[Resolved, Nem. con. That a Bill be brought in for the Forfeiture of the Estate and Honour of George late Lord Jeffreys, Baron of Wem, late Lord Chancellor of England: And it is recommended to Colonel Tipping to take care of it.]
Thursday, November 7.
Sir Edward Seymour.] The Question is, Whether Persons liable to the 500l. Forfeiture shall be charged towards the raising the Money that you have agreed? I suppose no man but believes, that, before you raise this sum, there will be a great many hardships somewhere. You will not make price of their Folly—You know what attempts have been made against our Religion and Laws; this penalty is no more, than what they are liable to already. Nothing can be of greater consideration of Justice than to make this a Fund. To pay 100,000l. a month—a man may live to be mistaken. The Prince of Orange's Army, and the other Forces in the West Country, have eaten up all the fodder of the last year, and you will have an ill account of that Country if a hard winter. I will with chearfulness support the Government, but it is reasonable that we pay not the price of other mens follies, while they pay not a farthing to the public charge. As for that Law of the Test, the wit of man could not have found out a greater preservative against Popery, and will you let go that impudent Action of taking Offices without the Test, &c? Have they deserved this? Were they put in for preservers of your Liberties? They may pretend to be defenders of your Faith too. You are not at the last end of your tether. I think it reasonable that you should raise these 500l. Forfeitures to be applied to the Public.
Mr Hawes.] I am no friend to Popery; and I do not regard whether Papist, or Fanatic, break your Laws: I would have the Laws run upon them. But the proper Question is, Whether the 500l. Forfeiture will yield what you think? If you run upon every man, I am sure you will never raise it, unless, as in the Act of Conventicles, he that is, pays for him that is not, responsible. You must make a new Law for Persons not qualified, and who have got nothing by their Offices.
Sir Thomas Lee.] It may happen, I think, that a Protestant, who would make himself grateful to King James, has done more mischief in promoting the Popish Interest than Papists. Perhaps it will come so hard upon those in Corporations, that it may undo them who have little, and cannot speak for themselves; but how will you distinguish it? Those who had no Offices of Profit, and will now take the Test, I would have them excused, but such as refuse now should pay double.
Sir Edward Seymour.] I do not understand the reason of that distinction of "then" and "now." The thing they stood upon was not matter of Conscience, which is the same now as it was then. Because they carried on the Suspending Power, that has brought us into all this misfortune; therefore I am not for distinction.
Sir John Thompson] I wonder the Gentleman can remember some and forget others. He speaks of "the Dispensing Power:" I think they were as great Enemies to the Government who ruined us on the Prerogative side. He was taken down to Order.
Mr Sacheverell.] I am, in a great measure, of the Opinion of that Gentleman. I cannot agree to deceive the King, by getting nothing by poor men. You will punish them that did it, to save themselves from ruin. The Papists had another end in it. I do know persons that did come in at that time, that wish as well to the Church of England as any men, who would rather run the Penalty than let the Corporation be ruined, and Corporations had been ruined that gave not up their Charters. I can go up to those that made no profit of it, and can freely come in. I mean not, by this, to excuse Justices of Peace, nor Deputy-Lieutenants, but poor men in Corporations.
Mr Sacheverell.] If you would put it by a Sum, let it be by a Quantum of value upon the poor men. I do not except men of Authority, as Justices of the Peace, and Deputy-Lieutenants, but poor men of Corporations. I know not one Justice not worth 100l. per ann. nor Deputy-Lieutenant. I know no way but to state it by the Sum; put it upon men of 100l. per ann. or Money in value to it.
[Resolved, That it is theOpinion of this Committee, That, towards the raising the Supply to be given to their Majesties, the pecuniary Penalties incurred by all Privy-Counsellors, Lord-Lieutenants, DeputyLieutenants, Militia Officers, Justices of Peace of Counties and Cities, Mayors, Bailiffs of Corporations, Sheriffs, Recorders, TownClerks, and also by other Persons who have accepted or exercised any Office or Place of Profit, either Military or Civil, other than such as are now Officers in their Majesties Army or Fleet, contrary to an Act of 25 Charles II, entitled, "An Act for preventing Dangers which may happen from Popish Recusants," be speedily levied and applied to that purpose: And that the House be moved, That a Bill be brought in to that Effect. Which being reported, was agreed to by the House the next Day, and a Bill was ordered to be brought in accordingly.
Saturday, November 9.
Col. Birch.] I have seen an Irish Rebellion before this, in 1640. The Rebellion in Ireland was then quelled out of Irish Money and Irish Estates. What was then done was by a Bill for Subscription at Guild-hall for so many Acres of Land on the Rebels Estates, and other great Persons. There was then 370,000l. raised upon it. When Charles II came in, a Committee of Claims was made— But if the Estates of those in Arms against the King and Kingdom were offered to sale, I think they would raise some Money. This I submit to your Wisdom. It makes so many Friends to the Government, and it is their Interest. Your Enemies, by this, will see you are in good earnest, and that they are no Friends to you, nor you to them.
Sir Thomas Clarges.] In 1641, an Act passed for Proposals in such a Province, and so much was given for so many Acres. I am for a Committee to receive Proposals, before you make an Act; it is too early for that. At that time, in 1641, we were possessed of Dublin, and other places, and I think, if we do any thing, a Committee should view the former Act.
Mr Garroway.] You have passed some Votes which will not give satisfaction, to come up to your present necessity to raise two Millions, by the several projects; we must go really to the thing, and resolve that the Land must bear some. I care not which way, so it be done better or worse; therefore say what Proportion the Land must bear. I propose, that you will raise a certain Sum upon the Land, 1,400,000l. by a Pound rate, monthly assessment, and debate that.
Mr Godolphin.] You are not yet ripe for this Question of laying 1,400,000l. upon Land, but you may be presently; the Returns being about making in the Exchequer of the 12d. in the Pound. By that you will know exactly what to do, when you see the Duplicates. I believe you must lay 2 s. in the Pound for one year.
4. That the said Pound Rate be two Shillings in the Pound for one Year, &c. as also a farther Charge of two Shillings in the Pound upon all such Persons as shall refuse to take the Oaths which are appointed instead of the Oaths of Allegiance and Supremacy. Which being reported, were agreed to by the House, and the Attorney and Sollicitor General, were ordered to prepare and bring in Bills accordingly.]