Journal of the House of Lords: Volume 10, 1648-1649. Originally published by His Majesty's Stationery Office, London, 1767-1830.
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DIE Veneris, 24 die Novembris.
Message to the H. C. with Mrs. Sawyer's Petition.
Letter from the Commissioners, with Papers about the Treaty.
Letter from L. Fairfax.
Christ Church, Oxford, and Inhabitants of Gillsborough.
Ordered, That the Earl of Stamford and the Lord Mountague are desired to speak with the Dean of Ch. Ch. Mr. Serjeant Clerke, and some of the Inhabitants of Gillesbrough, in the County of North'ton; and mediate an End amongst the Parties concerned and mentioned in the said Petition.
Col. Herbert and Vaughan & al.
Ordered, That Thomas Vaughan and other the Creditors of the Petitioner are forthwith to appear before the Lords in Parliament, who are to be heard touching the Matter of the said Petition; and the Earl of Stamford is desired by the House, to persuade the Petitioner to pay the said Mr. Vaughan his just Debt forthwith.
Salkeld & al. and Wright.
The Cause between Salkeld & al. Plaintiffs, and Wreight Defendant, came this Day to a farther Hearing, at the Bar, by Counsel, upon a Writ of Error, wherein was assigned only the common Error and an Error pretended in the Declaration.
Message from the H. C. with Ordinances and an Order.
A Message from the House of Commons, by Mr. Nicholes and others of the said House of Commons; (fn. 1) who brought up several Particulars, whereunto they desire the Lords Concurrence; videlicet,
Message from the H. C. to sit a while.
Message from thence, about the Order for 3000l. for Lancashire Forces.
Message from thence, with Votes for lengthening the Treaty.
A Fourth Message was brought up, by Mr. Both and others; who desired the Lords Concurrence to some Votes for the lengthening the Treaty till Monday Night next; and that the Commissioners do come away on Tuesday, with the King's final Answer, &c.
Ordinance for Prideaux to be Solicitor General.
"Be it Ordained, by the Lords and Commons assembled in Parliament, That Edmund Prideaux Esquire shall be, and is hereby nominated and appointed to be, His Majesty's Solicitor General, and shall have, hold, and execute, the said Office or Place, and receive and take all just Fees, Profits, and Commodities thereunto belonging, so long as he shall well demean himself therein; and that the Clerk of the Crown in Chancery do forthwith prepare a Bill, in usual Form accordingly, containing a Grant of the said Office and Premises unto the said Edmund Prideaux, in as ample Manner as any other Person or Persons at any Time heretofore held and enjoyed the same; which Grant the Commissioners for the Great Seal of England are hereby authorized and required to pass under the said Great Seal: And be it hereby likewise Ordained and Declared, by the said Lords and Commons, That the said Edmund Prideaux, as Solicitor General, shall be, and is hereby, enabled, authorized, and required, to do and execute all and all Manner of Acts, Matters, and Things whatsoever, as well in all and every His Majesty's Courts of Record as elsewhere, as amply and fully as Oliver St. John, His Majesty's late Solicitor General, by any Ordinance or Authority of Parliament, hath done, or might do and execute, and also to receive and take all like Fees and Profits received and taken by the said Oliver St. John, His Majesty's said late Solicitor General; for all which, this present Ordinance, or a Duplicate thereof, shall be sufficient Warrant."
Ordinance for Waller to be Judge of the Court of Pleas in the Isle of Ely.
"It is this Day Ordered and Ordained, by the Lords and Commons assembled in Parliament, That Thomas Waller, of Greys Inne, in the County of Midd. Esquire, be, and is hereby constituted and appointed, Steward and Judge of the Court of Pleas for the Isle of Ely, quamdiù se bene gesserit; and have and take all Fees, Pensions, Perquisites, and Emoluments whatsoever, to the said Office any Ways of Right belonging or appertaining, in as large and ample Man ner as any other Steward or Judge heretofore appointed by the late Bishops of Ely, or their Predecessors, or any of them, held, used, or enjoyed the same; and that the Trustees appointed by Ordinance of Parliament for the Sale of Bishops Lands do grant the said Office, with the Appurtenances, to the said Thomas Waller, as aforesaid."
Order for 352l. to Heywood and Saxton.
"Whereas Richard Heywood and Joseph Saxton, of Alisbury, did voluntarily lend to Colonel Henry Bulstrod the Sum of Three Hundred Fifty-two Pounds, for the Fortifications of Alisbury, and Pay of Soldiers and Gunners entertained to secure that Place against the Enemy, upon Promise of speedy Re-payment, or the Public Faith to be procured them: Neither of which being done; it is Ordered, by the Lords and Commons in Parliament assembled, That the Public Faith be given them; and that the Committee of Habberdash'rs Hall, appointed to receive the Advance for the Pay of the House Guards now attending the Houses, do allow the same accordingly."
Letter from the Commissioners, with the following Papers about the Treaty.
"We here send your Lordship the several Papers that have passed between the King and us since our last Writing unto your Lordship, concerning the Business of the Church, and your Resolutions upon the King's Propositions; which being all we have to say, we remain
* * The King's Answer to the Commissioners Paper of the 17th, concerning the Church.
"In Answer to your Paper of the 17th Instant, whereby you have acquainted His Majesty with the Votes and Resolutions of both Houses of the 15th of November Instant, and thereupon desired His full Consent to the several Parts of the Proposition mentioned in those Votes, according to the former Desires contained in your Paper of the 25th of September, concerning the Church;
"His Majesty faith, That he hath well weighed and examined His Concessions to that Proposition; and is very sorry to find that, notwithstanding all His Care and Endeavours to give His Two Houses Satisfaction, manifested in Four Answers already given in to you upon that Subject, by which He hath consented to whatsoever He could with a good Conscience grant, yet His Answers are still returned back unsatisfactory.
"But His Majesty, upon Perusal of your former Papers, finds the main Dissatisfaction of His Two Houses rests in the Matters concerning the Abolition of Bishops, Sale of their Lands, and His Majesty's Intention to use a Form of Divine Service in His Chapel.
"As to these Particulars, His Majesty doth again clearly prosess, That He cannot with a good Conscience consent to the total Abolition of the Function and Power of Bishops, nor to the entire and absolute Alienation of their Lands, as is desired; because He is yet persuaded in His Judgement, that the former is of Apostolical Institution, and that to take away the latter is Sacrilege: Neither can His Majesty communicate in a Public Form of Divine Service and Administration of the Sacraments, where it is wholly uncertain what the Minister will offer to God. And therefore He cannot recede from His former Answers in any of these Particulars.
"And if His Two Houses shall seriously consider, how that His Majesty, by His former Answers, hath totally suspended Episcopal Government for Three Years, and, after the said Time, limited the same in the Powers of Ordination and Jurisdiction, and that the Primitive Office of a Bishop only is by Him endeavoured to be preserved; and that the Bishops Lands are heavily charged with Leases for Ninetynine Years, and the Deans and Chapters and other their Dependants are taken away; His Majesty is confident, His Two Houses cannot think it reasonable, in a Matter of this Nature, to offer any Violence to the Conscience of their Sovereign; nor to suffer these Differences, which rest in so narrow a Compass, to hinder the Settlement of a blessed Peace in this Kingdom. And if His Two Houses shall not think fit to recede from the Strictness of their Demands in these Particulars, His Majesty can with more Comfort cast Himself upon His Saviour's Goodness, to support Him in and desend Him from all Afflictions, how great soever, that may befall Him, than, for any politic Consideration which may seem to be a Means to restore Him, deprive Himself of the inward Tranquillity of a quiet Mind.
"Wherefore, as to these Particulars before mentioned, as also concerning the Articles of Religion, and what else remains in Difference upon this Proposition, His Majesty adheres to His former Answers; and hopes that His Two Houses, upon a Review and further Consideration of His Reasons, will therewith rest fully satisfied.
|"Ro. Blackborne,||Secr. Commiss."|
** The Commissioners Reply to the King's Answer of the 18th, concerning the Church.
"Having perused Your Majesty's Paper of the 18th Instant, given in as an Answer to ours of the 17th, which contained the Votes and Resolutions of both Houses upon some of Your Majesty's Answers to our Desires expressed in a Paper of the 25th of September, concerning the Church;
"We do humbly say, That the Houses of Parliament did (as formerly) return those Answers back unsatisfactory, because there was no Concession of the Things desired, which they had in their Judgement concluded to be so necessary for the Good of the whole Kingdom, both Church and State, wherein they would not force Your Majesty's Conscience; but desire it may be informed, that so Yours agreeing with theirs, who are Your Great Council, there might be a Compliance throughout, and a Concurrence in these and all other Things, for healing the Breaches, composing the Differences, and settling a blessed Peace, within Your Dominions: And therefore we, in Pursuance of their Directions, have made bold to press Your Majesty so often, both in our Papers and Debates, and must still persist.
"First, For the Abolition of Episcopacy; we take Leave to say, it is not the Apostolical Bishop which the Bill (desired of Your Majesty) intends to remove; but that Episcopacy which was formerly established by Law in this Kingdom, grown up to a Height of outward Pomp and Greatness, and found by Experience to be a Grievance to the Subject, a Hinderance of Piety, an Encroachment upon the Power of the Civil Magistrate, and so a Burden to the Persons, Purses, and Consciences, of Men. Whereupon the Parliament, finding it to be for the Honour of Your Majesty, and Profit of the Subject, to take it away, desire this Bill for that Purpose, not meddling with the Apostolical Bishop, nor determining what that Bishop is whom the Apostles mention in Scripture, but only to put him down by a Law who was set up by a Law; nothing being more proper for Parliaments, than to alter, repeal, or make Laws, as Experience teaches it to be for the Good of the Commonwealth. But, admitting that Apostolical Bishop were within the Purport of this Bill, we humbly conceive, it doth not follow that therefore in Conscience it must not be passed; for we may not grant that no Occasion can make that alterable which is found to have its Foundation only in the Practice of the Apostles, not in a Precept. We suppose that some Things have been altered which the Apostles practised; that Circumstances many Times change the Nature of Moral Actions; that, for the attaining of a great Good, or the Avoidance of a great Evil, that which, simply considered, were not fit to be done (perhaps a Fault if it were) may become a Duty, and a Man be bound in Conscience to do it: And if ever Circumstances could have a more powerful and considerable Operation than in this Particular, we humbly leave to your Majesty's Consideration. But this is said only by the Way; and admitting for Argument's Sake, not granting, the Grounds upon which Your Majesty is pleased to go, in the refusing to pass this Bill.
"Secondly, For the Sale of Bishops Lands, which Your Majesty apprehends to be Sacrilege; we humbly offer, that, Bishoprics being dissolved, their Lands (as of all Corporations) naturally by the Law of the Land revert to the Crown, which is their Founder and Patron, and heretofore held it no Sacrilege to dispose of Bishops Lands to its own and others Use by Act of Parliament; which was an ordinary Practice in Your Majesty's Predecessors, Kings and Queens of this Nation: Besides, we might say, that in all Ages, and even under the Ceremonial Law, eminent and urgent Necessity (especially if public) hath dispensed with the otherwise employing of Consecrated Things.
"Then, whereas Your Majesty is pleased to say, "You cannot communicate in a Public Form of Divine Service where it is uncertain what the Minister will offer to God;" we humbly beseech You to be informed, that the Directory, which Your Majesty hath granted to establish for Three Years, doth set down the Matter of the Prayer which the Minister is to observe; only Words and Expressions, and Enlargements upon the Subject, are left to his Discretion, for the Exercise of his Gifts; so as the Substance of what he is to say will be manifest unto Your Majesty. Yet give us Leave to add further, it can be no Objection against joining with a Minister in Prayer, not to know before-hand the very Words that he will say; for then one must not hear any pray before Sermon, where every several Minister hath a several Form, and must vary still according to Occasion.
"Upon the whole Matter, we hope Your Majesty, after a more serious Consideration, will easily discern the just Cause which the Two Houses of Parliament have to remain (as they do) unsatisfied; seeing Your Suspension of Episcopal Government for Three Years doth not meet with their Fears, nor can prevent the Inconveniences which must necessarily follow upon the Return of Bishops, and the Power which You reserve unto them after that Time; for First, that a Bishop so qualified as Your Majesty expresseth shall rise again then is wholly in Your Majesty's Choice, and unavoidable by the Parliament; with whom, if You will not agree before (which depends merely upon Your Majesty's Will), no other Government can be set up, and then this of Episcopacy returns, and that with so great Power as the Bishop may choose if any Ministers at all shall be made in the Church of England, and those that shall to be at his Devotion, he having the Negative Voice in Ordination; which we humbly conceive the Scripture holds not forth to have been in that Bishop who is there mentioned in those Writings of the Apostles; and consequently that which Your Majesty endeavours to preserve, not to be the Primitive Office of Bishop.
"Then for the Lands, which Your Majesty alledges to be so heavily charged with Leases for Ninety-nine Years; we humbly say, There is a Rent which You still are pleased to reserve to him, and the Reversions after those Years elapsed; so as the Proprietor and Propriety still continue as before, and will be apprehended to be but a Door left open for the same Greatness and Pomp, with the Consequences thereof, to be re-admitted upon the First Opportunity; which being, it will be impossible to free Mens Minds from Fears, and the Distempers which those Fears will occasion. Besides, it cannot be expected the Presbyterian Government should be complied with, and exercised with either Profit or Comfort to the Church in general, or to particular Persons (whether the Governors or the Governed), every body seeing it to be so short lived, and most Men so apt to resist Government, who will thereby be emboldened against this; so as it is much to be doubted, that what Your Majesty hath done, supposing it will quiet the present Distractions, and give Way for calmer Debates afterwards, may rather be a Means of further and greater Troubles, and put us at a larger Distance from a Composure of the Business of the Church for the Time to come than we are now. And therefore we hope Your Majesty will pardon our pressing You in this Manner; and not think it unreasonable, that the Houses of Parliament do insist upon these Particulars, which to them appears of so great Consequence. The Intention is not, as was said before, to offer Violence to Your Majesty's Conscience; but that You will please to rectify it, by being better informed, that both Yourself and Your People may have Cause of Rejoicing.
"Upon these Grounds, and many more too long to be here inserted, we again humbly beseech Your Majesty to review our former Papers, call to Mind those Reasons and Arguments which in Debate have been used upon this Subject, and such other as Your own Wisdom, upon the Recollection of Your Thoughts, will suggest unto You; and then, all considered, that You will be pleased to give Your Royal Consent to the Particulars above specified, according to our Desires expressed in our Paper of the 25th of September.
|"Ro. Blackborne,||Secr. Commiss."|
* * His Majesty's final Answer concerning the Church.
"His Majesty faith, That He is well pleased with the Expressions both in the Preface and Conclusion of the said last Paper, "that His Houses intend not to force or offer Violence, but to inform and rectify His Conscience;" and therefore, notwithstanding the Necessity which is urged upon Him through your whole Paper for His present Concessions, which otherwise might seem to contradict those Expressions which so well please His Majesty, yet He hopes His ensuing Answers will satisfy His Two Houses, since He is thereunto enforced by His Conscience, which concurs with the Sense of all other Parliaments (but this) since the Reformation.
"First, As for the Abolition of Episcopacy, if what you desire of His Majesty would not (being granted) absolutely remove, nay abolish, the Exercise of the Apostolical Bishop, this Point would be soon agreed betwixt His Majesty and His Two Houses; for all the additional Power and Jurisdiction which His Majesty's Predecessors have bestowed upon that Apostolical Function, He hath consented shall be taken away, as Archbishops, Deans and Chapters, &c.; leaving nothing but what (as His Majesty believes to have proved by His Paper to your Divines) was clearly instituted by the Apostles themselves. And if He should give Way to remove all Ecclesiastical Functions which by Law are exercised, by that Rule even the Presbyters themselves may be taken away; for, questionless, the Civil Sanction gives the legal acting Power to all Divine Institutions; otherwise the Christian Clergy would now be in little better Case than they were before there were Christian Emperors. As for those Apostolical Practices which have or may, for the Avoidance of greater Evils, be altered; His Majesty denies not but that Circumstances may change the Nature of Moral Actions, and may perhaps make that which is a Fault at one Time (singly considered in self) become a Duty at another: Yet, if the Particulars now demanded be not fit to be done, or perhaps a Fault if done, His Majesty conceives (the good End being the same on both Sides, to wit, the Peace of the Kingdom) that the Consideration of extraordinary Circumstances ought rather in this Case to have a powerful Operation with His Two Houses to recede from their Demands (which cannot be thought a Fault in them), than to be made Use of as an Argument to press His Majesty to do a Thing against His Conscience, which appears to Him to be unlawful; since the same good End may as well be obtained by relaxing on the one Side, as by pressing on the other. Besides, His Majesty conceives not this to be of that Number; it being not only a bare Practice, but an Institution for continual Use in the Church.
"Secondly, As for the Sale of Bishops Lands; His Majesty conceives, that Precedents in Cases of Conscience cannot satisfy; they only proving that such Things were done, not the Lawfulness of them. Now that the total Alienation of Church Lands (which is the true State of the Question) is Sacrilege, Divines of all Sorts and of all Times (though otherwise differing in Opinion, yet) herein agree with His Majesty's Judgement; which being well weighed, He hopes may satisfy as to this Particular: Nor can the Practices under the Ceremonial Law make any Thing for this Case, because in those Days full Compensation was always intended, and ordinarily followed, though absolute Necessity (and not such as might be otherwise avoided) dispensed sundry Times with the employing of sacred Things.
"Upon the whole Matter; His Majesty hopes, that His Two Houses, after a more serious Consideration of these and His former Reasons, will clearly discern, that they are not pretended, (fn. 2) but real Points of Conscience, upon which He now sticks: And since, by the Suspension of Episcopacy for Three Years, His Majesty hath fully for that Time granted His Two Houses Desires, since He hath reduced the Office of a Bishop, not only to the Apostolical Institution (which you say is not desired to be removed), but likewise taken away all those additional Powers and Jurisdictions which can make them liable to the Imputation of those Grievances and Inconveniences mentioned in your Paper (for as for the negative Voice in Ordination, His Majesty much wonders that any can question that Power not to have been in the Apostolical Bishop, it being evident by 1 Tym. v°. 22, and Tyt. i. 5, that sole Ordination was practised by them); since it is more than likely that, upon a solemn Debate had with the Divines, according to His Majesty's former Desires, His Majesty and the Two Houses will agree upon a settled Form of Church Government long before the End of Three Years, whereby all those Distractions feared after that Time will be prevented.
"And lastly, as for Church Lands; since, by the heavy charging of them, His Majesty hath satisfied those Burthens for which they were engaged, He cannot but hope that His Two Houses will rest satisfied with these and His former Answers; especially considering that, if the Treaty should break upon this (which God forbid), the Violence offered to His Majesty's Conscience (against which you protest) would be too apparent to all the World, besides the Confusion that must necessarily follow in all these His Dominions, which is no Ways in His Majesty's Power to help; for you know who says, What is a Man profited, if he shall gain the whole World, and lose his own Soul? Whereas, by the contrary, the Compliance with His Majesty in these Particulars puts Him in a right Way for the better Information of His Conscience, and in the mean Time settles a happy Peace in these distressed Kingdoms.
"Concerning His Majesty's Declaration for a set Form of Divine Service (in His Answer of the 4th of this Instant); His Majesty, having now observed the Latitude of the Directory, is willing that that' Expression shall not be taken as any Part of His Answer.
|"Ro. Blackborne,||Secr. Commiss."|
** The Commissioners Paper, upon the Receipt of the King's final Answer to the Proposition concerning the Church.
"Having received Your Majesty's final Answer to us, as to our Papers of the 11th and 20th of this Instant, concerning the Church; we shall communicate the same to both Houses of Parliament; and go on in the Treaty, according to our Instructions.
|"Ro. Blackborne,||Secr. Commiss."|
** The Commissioners Paper, presenting the Votes upon the King's Propositions.
"That, from and immediately after the King shall have consented unto the Desires of the Two Houses upon the Treaty, and ratified the same by Act or Acts of Parliament, all His Houses, Honours, Manors, and Lands, with the growing Rents and Profits thereof, and all other legal Revenues of the Crown, shall be restored unto Him, liable to the Maintenance of ancient Forts, and all public and other legal Charges, which they were formerly charged withal, or liable unto; with an Exception of such Castles and Forts as are now garrisoned, and of such Places for public Magazines and Stores as are now made Use of, for so long Time as both Houses shall think fit to make Use of them for the necessary Defence of the Kingdom.
"That the King shall have Compensation for those legal growing Revenues and Profits of the Crown, which He hath or shall consent to part withal, for the Satisfaction of both Houses, in this Treaty, in such Manner and Proportion as by the King and both Houses shall be agreed upon.
"That an Act of Oblivion and Indemnity may be passed, to extend to all Persons, for all Matters, with such Limitations and Provisions as shall be agreed between His Majesty and His Two Houses of Parliament: Provided, That it be declared by Act of Parliament, That nothing in these Four Propositions, or any of them, thus consented unto, is intended, or shall be made Use of, to abrogate, weaken, or any Ways impair, any Agreement in this Treaty, or any Law, Grant, or Concession, agreed upon by the King and the Two Houses of Parliament, in Pursuance thereof.
|"Ro. Blackborne,||Secr. Commiss."|
** The King's Answer, touching the Votes upon His Four Propositions.
"1. His Majesty, having received the Votes of both Houses, of the 15th of November Instant, in Answer to His own Propositions formerly sent to both Houses, is well pleased, that from and after such Time as the Agreements of this Treaty be ratified by Act or Acts of Parliament, that all His Houses, Honours, Manors, and Lands, with the growing Rents and Profits thereof, and all other legal Revenues of the Crown, shall be restored unto Him, liable to the Maintenance of ancient Forts, and all other public legal Charges, which they were formerly charged withal, or liable unto; with an Exception of such Castles and Forts as are now garrisoned, and of such Places for Public Magazines and Stores as are now made Use of, for so long Time as both Houses shall think fit to make Use of them, for the necessary Defence of this Kingdom.
"2. His Majesty will likewise accept of such Compensation for those legal growing Revenues and Profits of the Crown which He hath or shall consent to part withal, for the Satisfaction of both Houses, in this Treaty, in such Manner and Proportion as shall be agreed between Him and His Two Houses.
"4. And He doth consent to an Act of Oblivion and Indemnity to be passed, to extend to all Persons, for all Matters, with such Limitations and Provisions as shall be agreed between Him and His Two Houses of Parliament.
"5. And His Majesty will further consent, that it be declared, by Act of Parliament, That nothing in His Majesty's Propositions shall be made Use of to abrogate, weaken, or any Ways impair, any Agreement in this Treaty, or any Law, Grant, or Concession, agreed upon by His Majesty and the Two Houses of Parliament, in Pursuance thereof.
|"Ro. Blackborne,||Secr. Commiss."|
** The Commissioners Paper, upon Receipt of the King's Answer to the Votes touching the Four Propositions.
"Having received Your Majesty's Paper of this 21th of November, in Answer to ours given in this Day, containing the Votes of both Houses concerning Your Majesty's Propositions formerly delivered; we shall communicate the same to both Houses of Parliament.
|"Ro. Blackborne,||Secr. Commiss."|
The King's Answer to the Proposition concerning the Church not satisfactory.
That the King's Answer contained in a Paper of the 21th of November Instant, 1648, to the Proposition concerning the Church, in all the Parts (except wherein He has declared His Consent), is not satisfactory."
Vote for continuing of the Treaty.
That the Treaty be continued till Monday next at Night, the 27th of this Instant November; and that the Commissioners be enjoined to come away on Tuesday Morning, with such final Answer as they shall receive from the King to what remains."
Letter to the Commissioners, with these Votes.
"We are commanded, by the Lords and Commons in Parliament assembled, to send unto you these inclosed Votes, hereby authorizing you to acquaint the King therewith. These being all we have in Command, we remain,