Journal of the House of Lords: Volume 12, 1666-1675. Originally published by His Majesty's Stationery Office, London, 1767-1830.
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DIE Lunæ, 17 die Aprilis.
Sir Thomas Ogle's Bill.
The Earl of Anglesey reported, "That the Committee have considered the Bill for to enable the Trustees to sell the Manor, Lands, and Leases, of Sir Thomas Ogle Knight, deceased, for raising a Portion and present Maintenance for his Daughter and Heir, and for Payment of his Debts; and, having received the Consents of all Persons therein concerned, their Lordships do think it fit to pass as it is."
Hodie 3a vice lecta est Billa, "An Act to enable Trustees to sell the Manor, Lands, and Leases, of Sir Thomas Ogle Knight, deceased, for raising a Portion and present Maintenance for his Daughter and Heir, and for Payment of his Debts."
River Wey Bill.
London Streets Bill.
The Earl of Dorset reported, "That the Committee have considered the Bill for the better Preservation of Game, and for securing of Warrens, and the several Fishings of this Realm; wherein their Lordships have made some Amendments, and added a Proviso, which are offered to the Consideration of the House."
Recovery of Fines and Forfeitures Bill.
Message to H. C. with it, and the Game Bill.
Report of the Conference concerning the Bill for additional Impositions on Foreign Commodities, the Brandy Bill, and about the Lords making Amendments to Money Bills.
Next, the Earl of Anglesey, and the rest of the Lords that managed the Conference with the House of Commons on Saturday last, concerning the Amendments in the Bill, intituled, "An additional Imposition on several Foreign Commodities, and for the Encouragement of several Commodities and Manufactures of this Kingdom," reported the Effect of the said Conference:
"He said, Mr. Attorney General was the First Man who spake; and told their Lordships, That the Commons had desired this Conference upon the Subjectmatter of the last Conference, which was concerning the Act of Imposition, intituled, "An additional Imposition on several Foreign Commodities; and for the Encouragement of several Commodities and Manufactures of this Kingdom." He said, In the End of it, your Lordships communicated the Form of an Address to His Majesty, against the Use of, and to discountenance those that do use, Foreign Manufactures in Prejudice of our own; which they chearfully concur in, and humbly thank your Lordships for: They differ so much in the rest, that he fears this is the only Thing they agree in; but hope for a good Agreement in Conclusion, the Commons having done as much as they can, to narrow the Differences.
"They desire nothing that is not the Subject-matter may come into Debate between us (that is, concerning the Right of laying Impositions on the Subject in general); the present Question being concerning Rates and Impositions on Merchandize only. And in this there is a fundamental Right in the House of Commons, both as to the Matter and the Measure, and the Time, unalterable, and which they cannot part with. He told us, we have formerly agreed a Book of Rates without so much as seeing it, signed by the Speaker Sir Harbottle Grimston, 12° Caroli IIdi, confirmed 13° of King Charles, which they sent not up, left your Speaker might sign it too, whereas never Book of Rates was read in the Lords House.
"The Title they have to the giving Aids, is the only poor Thing the Commons can value themselves upon to their Prince. If there be any Fault in this Bill, 'tis that they mentioned any Rates at all in particular.
"If they had sent up a Bill of Six Lines, referring to a Book of Rates, there could be no Reason why your Lordships should not have agreed to that, with the same Deference to the House of Commons, as you did for the other Book of Rates 12° Car'l. IIdi. We desire we may not dispute what is not the Question. The Rates upon Goods and Merchandize is that before us.
"They sent it this Way, to shew their Duty to the King, and Respects to the Lords; and never supposed it would be made a Handle of Difference to obstruct the Gift for ever, as if it were too great to get through.
"Your Lordships begin a new Thing. We find ourselves possessed of it in all Ages, and find not One Grant of Tonnage and Poundage that is not barely the Gift of the Commons. They hope your Lordships will not now go about to assume this; a Right so fundamentally settled in the Commons, that I cannot give a Reason for it, for that would be a Weakening of the Commons Right and Privilege, which we can never depart from, being affirmatively possessed of it in all Ages, and negatively as to the Lords. But, out of Respect to your Lordships, we have called ourselves to Account upon the Reasons of our Proceedings in this Bill; and do find that nothing that we have done in it is against the Interest of Trade; but no Syllable of the Variations made by your Lordships but is prejudicial to the Balance of Trade. Some intrusted therewith will present your Lordships the Reasons we shall offer; and though the Expressions should be somewhat harsh in the maintaining the Right and Privilege of the House of Commons, we desire all may be received with Candour and Patience, and you would give it a fair Interpretation.
"1. That, upon hearing the Planters, the Merchants, and the Refiners, and other best Informations they could get, they found that the Proportion of Three to One was the truest Medium for converting Brown Sugar into White; and then, considering that when the Sugar is brought hither from the Plantations White, Two Thirds of the Cask, and Two Thirds of the Carriage in the said Plantation to the Water-side, and Two Thirds of the Freight hither, is thereby saved; and also, considering how much Labour is cheaper there than here, they doing all by their Slaves, who work (as it were) for nothing; the Commons did thereupon conclude, that, having laid One Farthing per Pound upon the Brown, they could not impose less than one Penny upon the White.
"2. In all Barters made in The Barbadoes, they do usually allow Four Pounds of Brown Sugar for One of White, or more; and sometimes Six or Seven Pounds for Superfine Whites; and the like Proportion is observed in Payment of the Custom there, when the 4 & ½ per Cent. is not paid in Kind.
"3. Four Pounds of Brown Sugar do not generally yield and produce so much in Value at this Market (all Charges being deducted) as One Pound of White, as appears by the Barbadoe Merchants Accompts; and the like will appear by the Difference of the Prices between Brown Sugar from the Plantations and the Refined Sugar made here, some being sold at less, and other at more, than Four to One Difference; and so Four to One seems to be the nearest Medium.
"4. In the Book of Rates, Brown Sugars from the Plantations pay Eighteen Pence the Hundred Weight, and White pay Five Shillings the Hundred Weight; which goes by the Proportion of between 3 and 4 to One: And yet, under that Proportion of Payment, the Making of White Sugars in the Plantations hath had its Beginning, and every Year grown; and consequently no Reason can be given to lessen that Proportion.
"5. It is true, that but One Halfpenny Half Farthing is to be re-paid by this Bill upon Exportation of Sugars refined here; but then it is also to be considered, that One Half Farthing per Pound is also to be re-paid for the Syrups exported; which considered, together with the Difference of the Charge of Land and Sea Carriage, and Cask, make it evident that One Penny upon Whites from the Plantations is by no Means disproportionable to One Farthing upon Browns.
"6. Brown Sugars are the Money of the Plantations, and the great Concern of the Generality of the Planters; and consequently the greatest Care is to be taken, not to over-charge the Brown Sugar; not One Planter in a Hundred being concerned in making White Sugar. And if the Rate upon White Sugars should be set so low here, a thereby to discourage the Importing of Brown Sugar, the Generality of the Planters, who do now deal immediately with the Merchants, must all be enforced to sell their Goods to those rich Planters who have Refining Houses, and would thereby gain a much greater Profit than by what they plant themselves, and the Generality of the Planters undone.
"7. If the Plague be in The Barbadoes, there is the more Reason for the Penny per Pound upon White Sugars from thence, because they have the more Want of Hands to manufacture their Sugars into Whites; and consequently it would be at this Time more improper to discourage the bringing the Sugars hither Brown, and to deliver the Bulk of the Planters, who raise only Brown Sugars, into the Hands of those few who make Whites.
"8. And if it be not inconvenient to the Plantations that the Difference of Four to One between Brown and White be observed, surely it is much more convenient to England, for that by this Means our Plantations come to need Thrice as much Cask: We have also Employment for Thrice as much Shipping for bringing of the Sugars hither; and we do gain also here in England the great Trade of Sugar-baking, by which a very great Stock and Number of People are employed here, a great Consumption of Coals, Victuals, and other Necessaries for carrying on of this Manufacture; His Majesty's Revenues by Fire, Hearths, Excise upon Beer and Ale, encreased.
"9. As to all Arguments which may be drawn from the growing of the Dutch and French in the Planting and Manufacture of Sugar, and from the great Quantities thereof from The Brazills, they do not all reach this Case; or, if any White Sugar be imported hither from any Place other than the English Plantations, it pays by this Act the same Duty as ours; and if ours be exported into any other Country, the whole Duty imposed upon it by this Act is re-paid, or the Security vacated, and to be sure the Exportations will generally be within the Time allowed for Payment of the Money; and consequently this Act doth no Way hinder the Design of our becoming Masters of the Sugar Trade.
"The next Person that spoke was Sir George Downing; who said, The Commons do well approve of the Design to encourage our own, and discourage Foreign Manufactures. Ten in the Hundred ad Valorem did sufficiently do this.
"1. Because most of the Manufacturers who lived about London were taken away by the Plague; a few now would engross all the Trade; those left are not enough to manufacture those Stuffs. After a few Years, a total Prohibition may be made.
"Sir George Downing said, 'Tis not Silk of Turky, but from Turky; now little of the Silk is of Turky Growth, but most of Persia. This would have made a Difference at the Custom House, which were Turky, which Persia Silk, from the same Port. The Commons have endeavoured to avoid Ambiguity in this Bill. All Variation of Phrase from the Book of Rates occasions Suits; as in the Brandy, there is nothing of Turky Silk there. As to the Hardship on the Spaniards and Italians, it puts no Strait on them, they bringing from the first Port of Shipping.
"In the 4th Skin, 12 Line, Three Hundred Weight of Salt for Barwick Salmon, they agree not. The Reason for the Design was, to encourage other Salts; Cape Verde Salt costs us nothing. The Portugall Trade is one of the best we have. We want Returns thence extremely: You would vent more to Portugall if you would make more Returns. On the other Hand, French Trade sucks the Marrow, eats the Bones, and is the Canker that devours you; all our heavy Money goes thither, and Bills of Exchange from Cales, Leghorne, Hamborough, and all other Parts, ride Post to France, to balance your Trade there. Salt from St. Ubas, &c. will help to balance; and the more Salt, the less Sugar comes, which advantages your Plantation and Navigation. The Navigation from France is short, the other long. The French, by their Exaction of Fifty Soulz per Tun, have almost beaten you out of carrying Salt in your Shipping. This Kingdom hath had Difference often with France; and they would, if they could, debar you their Salt, as they have heightened it almost to a Prohibition; therefore it concerns you to provide Salt elsewhere. St. Ubas Salt, and our White, is sufficient to do our Work. The Newfoundland Trade is split Fish, and carried on with Cape Verde Salt. The Dutch did heal their Fish with French Salt, but now mingle Portugall with One Third of their own Salt; and they do not doubt Barwick may learn the same as others have done; but, if they do not, the King may give them a Liberty, it being not forbidden. Exempting a Place is bating a 'Subsidy, against the First Reason.
"In the 8 Skin, concerning the Isle of Man, and ["June"] instead of ["May"], they disagree to: The general Reason, opened by the learned Gentleman by me, extends to all, and is a Reason against this; for Taxes are altered, and Time laid, by your Lordships, which we cannot agree to. And the same Reason is for putting the Stuffs prohibited by your Lordships in the Place we sent them up under a Rate.
"The Exportation of Beef, Butter, Cheese, are all new; our Ancestors kept them in: Now they bear a better Rate, and keep Lands from falling lower, which they would have done if they had not been exported.
"Answer. This thwarts some of the former Reasons; but, if it should not, the King would not be in Danger of paying for it; and it shews the People, the King's Care of the Poor Husbandman that hath laboured at Loss for Three Years past, who, to make Corn valuable, would pay for the Transportation out of His own Purse. A Bushel of Wheat stands the Sower in Five Shillings and Six Pence, Rye Three Shillings, Barley Half a Crown; so that all have traded to Loss. There is Scarcity of Eaters of Corn; and unless we make Corn a Commodity, we shall sink; 'tis not the Plenty of Corn that causeth the Cheapness, but want of Eaters.
"Answer. The Reason is not the same: 1st, The Country was much wooded heretofore; and, Secondly, had not that Trade with Foreign Nations: If we make not a Commodity, we shall not know which Way to turn, because so much Land is tilled.
"Four or Five Ships were carried to The Canaries heretofore, that raised Corn Sixteen Pence a Bushel as far as Worcestershire. They will sow more, if they may transport. The Price of Corn goes much by the Humour. Twelve Pence a Bushel Gain by Corn will yield as much to the People as this Subsidy. You employ Seamen and Shipping; and Twenty Shillings is gained for Six Pence in Employment of People for every Bushel carried out, and 'twill encourage Navigation.
"Answer. This is against common Experience: The Eight Shillings is Twelve Pence above the Price of Coals. Instance of Scotland to prove this: In 1659, 7500 Chaldron exported; in 1663, the Coals being let fall to Eight Pence Tax, 27250 Chaldrons were exported, and none of this to England. This seems a Demonstration; and, I believe, since, 50000 Chaldrons hath been carried out in a Year.
"Answer. Your Lordships had not the whole Truth before you; because, 'tis true, the Parliament (that is, the Commons) made an Abatement: But the Scotch sunk theirs also; and that made our Abatement ineffectual. Underselling us in Coal brings the Dutch thither, and we lose them: An empty Cart coming to Market will bring something Home.
"Then Colonel Birch said, I hope, this Grant being only in Question, shall not hinder so great a Good. Where-ever there is a Giving, there is a Taking still; as in most of the Bills of late: Ten Groats a Chaldron taken off in 1660, without coming to the Lords; Threescore Thousand Pounds granted to the indigent Officers in One Act of Supply, and Two Subsidies given by the Clergy, were taken off in an Act for a Monthly Assessment; as Mr. Attorney said in Answer to your Lordships Objections.
"14 E. III. 15 E. III. Cap. 1. Conditions enacted. 14 R. II. Neither of these Clauses are foreign to the Bill, being to encourage Home Trade, and charge Foreign; which is the Title of the Bill. In the Act of Tonnage and Poundage, Money given back; and so for poor Corporations in all the Dismes and Fifteenths.
"2. This makes Things more easy, that we would make strict. This discourages Informers, and is prejudicial to the Customs. They have the Power of Judges and Juries lodged in them, not mentioning what Proof is sufficient, nor whether it is to be upon Oath. This Proviso is arbitrary in all respects; supersedes the Court of Exchequer.
"The Time, the Laying, and the Quantum, being denied, nothing is left to the Commons that they can pretend to in Money; that which seems more like Unparliamentary in your Lordships than that for which we received that Term from your Lordships: And your Lordships ought to look upon it as an unhappy Necessity, occasioned by your Lordships sending us that Bill so altered.
"Answer. It cannot be a Blemish to be like Magna Charta; methinks, nothing like that should be found Fault with; nothing can be closer to the Nature of the Bill than this is to the Bill; it agrees with the Title fully; therefore we wonder your Lordships should call it foreign to the Bill, or should look upon this as an Example to annex foreign Things to a Bill of Money.
"Experience is for this: Brandy, charged at Four Shillings a Gallon, came in and sold for Three. This takes from the King's Revenue indeed; but we give a Recompense, which improves our own Manufactures.
"To conclude: Your Lordships cannot believe we, in the same Barque with your Lordships, should desire Storms: We give freely, to prevent them. We are commanded also to say, we should not pursue our own Interest, if we did not labour for Accommodation. We have done all we can, to invite the Lords to a happy Concurrence.
"Then Sir Richard Temple said, I am commanded to back all with some Observations on your Lordships Precedents: Under Favour to your Precedents, I find at the same Time you sent down for a Conference, March 13, 1580, which was reported in the House of Commons, and they justified it by the Entry; the Issue was, you did proceed on the new Bill.
"The Second Precedent, 29 Eliz. 'Twas in a private Bill, which we have no Entry of, I shall now observe, in the Year 1660, Dec. 6, "An Act against planting Tobacco in England," an Office and Fees was erected in it: We laid it aside, and sent a new one, which the Lords passed.
"It hath been observed to your Lordships, the Irregularity of sending us down a Bill for Prohibition turned into a Bill for an Imposition; trenching hereby on the Right of the House of Commons, in beginning an Imposition. The Substance is the same in both, we differ only in the Way; so that we hope you will agree.
"Aids were never more necessary; and this is no common Present, a Grant for Nine Years, and cannot miscarry but upon Difference between the Two Houses. We desire that in no Place, upon no Occasion, they may be made wider.
"2. In Interest and Privilege: This is in a narrow Compass, we stand upon this; Rates on Merchandize you never did impose, never diminish. Books of Rates have been kept from you, left you should inquire into them.
Lords assert their Right to make Amendments to Money Bill.
Upon the Report of this last Conference with the House of Commons, and Consideration had thereupon: It is Resolved, upon the Question, by the Lords Spiritual and Temporal in Parliament assembled, Nemine contradicente, That the Power exercised by the House of Peers, in making the Amendments and Abatements in the Bill, intituled, "An Act for an additional Imposition on several Foreign Commodities, and for the Encouragement of several Commodities and Manufactures of this Kingdom," both as to the Matter, Measure, and Time, concerning the Rates and Impositions on Merchandize, is a fundamental, inherent, and undoubted Right of the House of Peers, from which they cannot depart.
Committee to prepare Reasons for Support of it.
ORDERED, by the Lords Spiritual and Temporal in Parliament assembled, That the same Lords who reported the last Conference with the House of Commons (the Lord Newport added to them) do meet this Afternoon, and prepare Reasons and Precedents, and what else is fit to be offered at a Conference, to maintain this Resolution of this House; and make Report thereof to this House.
King's Pleasure, when to be attended.
ORDERED, by the Lords Spiritual and Temporal in Parliament assembled, That the Lord Steward of His Majesty's Household, and the Lord Chamberlain of His Majesty's Household, shall attend His Majesty from this House, to know His Pleasure, what Time His Majesty will please to appoint for both Houses of Parliament to attend Him, with their humble Address for the Encouragement of the wearing the Manufactures of this Kingdom.
|His Royal Highness the Duke of Yorke.|
Bridgman, Mil. et Bar. Ds. Custos Magni Sigilli.
Edwardus Comes Manchester, Camerarius Hospitii Domini Regis.
Ds. Arlington, One of the Principal Secretaries of State.
Ds. Howard de Esc.
London Streets Bill.
River Wey Bill.
Ayliffe and Reading quarrel before the Committee for Workhouses Bill.
Upon Complaint made to this House, by the Petition of Michaell Baker, Anthony Trethewy, and others, and Report made by the Lord Bishop of Sarum, of some Differences and Provocations which happened on Saturday last, between Joseph Ayliffe Esquire and Nathaniell Reading Esquire, Counsellors at Law, while they were attending the Lords Committees then sitting upon the Bill for the better regulating of Workhouses, &c. in the Lord Keeper's Lodgings, near the House of Peers:
It is ORDERED, by the Lords Spiritual and Temporal in Parliament assembled, That the said Joseph Ayliff and Nathaniell Reading be, and are hereby, required to appear at the Bar of this House To-morrow Morning.