House of Lords Journal Volume 13: 28 June 1678

DIE Veneris, 28 die Junii.

Domini tam Spirituales quam Temporales præsentes fuerunt:

PRAYERS.

Against killing, &c. Deer, Bill.

Hodie 2^a vice lecta est Billa, "An Act to prevent the unlawful coursing and hunting, killing, selling, or buying of Deer."

ORDERED, That the Consideration of this Bill, is committed to these Lords following:

Lord Chief Justice of the Common Pleas to assist their Lordships.

Their Lordships, or any Five; to meet To-morrow, at Nine in the Forenoon, in the Prince's Lodgings; and to adjourn as they please.

Jurors returning Bill.

Hodie 2^a vice lecta est Billa, "An Act for preventing Abuses in returning Jurors."

ORDERED, That the Consideration of this Bill is committed to the same Committee as the Bill is for preventing unlawful coursing of Deer; to meet on Monday Morning next, at Nine of the Clock.

Plator's Bill.

Hodie 3^a vice lecta est Billa, "An Act to enable Thomas Plater Gentleman to sell lands, for Payment of Debts charged upon the same, and reimbursing him such Money as he hath or shall lay out, in repairing the Breaches made by the Inundation of the Sea, and keeping the Water out."

The Question being put, "Whether this Bill shall pass?"

It was Resolved in the Affirmative.

A Message was sent to the House of Commons, by Edward Lowe and Sir William Childe:

To deliver them the Bill to enable Thomas Plater to sell Lands; and to desire their Concurrence thereunto.

Robinson versus Woolley, in Error.

The Lord Chief Justice of the Court of King's Bench, in the usual Manner, brought into this House a Writ of Error, to reverse a Judgement given in the King's Bench, between Robinson Plaintiff, and Woolley Defendant.

Thorsby's Bill.

The Lord Privy Seal reported, "That the Committee have considered the Bill to enable Trustees to sell Mr. Thomas Thorsbye's Lands, and have made some Amendments, which are offered to the Consideration of the House."

The Amendments were read Twice, and Agreed to; and the Bill ordered to be engrossed, with the said Amendments.

Mulso's Bill.

The Earl of Aylesbury reported, "That the Committee have considered the Bill for selling Mr. Mulsoe's Estate; and do think it fit to pass, without any Amendments."

Hodie 3^a vice lecta est Billa, "An Act to enable Trustees to sell Lands of Tanfield Mulso Esquire, late deceased, for Payment of his Debts, and making Provision for his Children."

This Bill is to be further considered on Wednesday next.

The Marquis of Winton and the Earl of Bath are added to the Committee for the Bill against unlawful coursing and killing of Deer.

E. Feversham versus Watson.

The House being moved, on the Behalf of Lewis Earl of Feversham, "That a Day may be appointed, to hear the Cause depending upon the Appeal of the said Earl of Feversham, from a Dismission of his Bill in Chancery on the Eleventh of May last; to which Appeal Lewis Watson Esquire and the Lady Katherine his Wife put in their Answer as Defendants:"

It is ORDERED, by the Lords Spiritual and Temporal in Parliament assembled, That this House will hear Counsel, at the Bar, on both Parts, upon the said Appeal and Answer, on Saturday the Sixth Day of July next, at Ten of the Clock in the Forenoon; whereof the said Earl of Feversham is to cause timely Notice to be given to the said Lewis Watson and his Wife for that Purpose.

Darrell versus Whitchcot.

Whereas this Day was appointed to hear Counsel, upon the whole Matter, in the Cause between Marmaduke Darrell Esquire and Sir Paul Whichcot Baronet:

It is ORDERED, by the Lords Spiritual and Temporal in Parliament assembled, That this House will hear Counsel, at the Bar, upon the whole Matter in the said Cause, on Wednesday the 3^d Day of July next, at Ten of the Clock in the Forenoon, the First Business; whereof both the said Parties are hereby to take Notice, and attend with their Counsel accordingly.

The Commons being come, in the Painted Chamber, ready to give a Free Conference; the House appointed the same Lords as managed the last Conference to manage this.

Report of the Conference, on the Lord's Amendments to the Supply Bill, for disbanding the Forces.

The House was adjourned during Pleasure, and the Lords went to the Free Conference; which being ended, the House was resumed.

And the Lord Privy Seal reported the Effect of the Free Conference; "which, he said, was managed by Sir Thomas Meares, Mr. Powle, Colonel Birch, Sir Richard Temple,Sir Thomas Lee, and others:

"Sir Thomas Meares told us, That this Free Conference was desired concerning the Amendments we had made, and the Proviso they had offered, to the Bill for disbanding the Army raised since the 29th of September last; wherein the Commons, he said, could not comply with their Lordships, preserving their Privileges: Only, to shew their willing Correspondence as far as they can, they do agree to that Amendment of yours, lengthening the Time for Liberty for Apprentices to return to their Masters to the 29th of September: And in the Matter also of your other Two Amendments, enlarging the Days for disbanding, they did agree, but could not in the Manner: As to the Two Words, Methods and Rights of the House of Commons, which they mentioned at the First Conference, and which we took Notice of at the Second they had not explained particularly; he now told us, they meant thereby, the Method and Manner of Bills for Money; asserting, that the Commons have the sole Right of granting Money without Control, and have had it in all Times: And that the Charge may not continue, but all the Forces be disbanded, is the Intent and End of the Bill; and both the Grant of Monies, and Ends for which they are granted, are always from the Commons; and that we change the Method and Form by meddling with these: Therefore they had proposed the Proviso, to which they had adhered, and pressed us to agree; and the rather, because we had agreed with the Commons in the Occasion for disbanding, and our Reasons owned it to be for the Quiet of the Kingdom: That this had been vexata Quastio, and they thought we would not enter into it again, having been determined last Year; and being so considerable to them, they cannot give it up; concluding, 'twas not Want of Desire to comply, but Necessity, that they did not agree with us. This, with some descanting upon the Reasons given by the Lords at the last Conference, was the Effect of what he and the rest of the Commoners Managers said.

"To which we answered and replied, That we utterly denied any such Privilege or Right in the Commons in relation to Bills of Money; that the sole Pretence they had in Matter of Money was what we had, by the Act in Henry the 4th's Reign, intituled, Indempnity des Seigneurs et Communes, communicated to them, that Bills of Money should begin in their House; in all other respects, and to all other Intents and Purposes, our Legislative Power was as full and free as theirs; we granted as well as they, they could not grant without us, not so much as for themselves, much less for us; we were Judges and Counsellors, to consider and advise concerning the Ends and Occasions for Money as well as they, and generally had Power to do all Things in Bills of Money seeming to us expedient, as in other Bills; and did begin Bills of Money as well as they, till we had limited ourselves as aforesaid: And let them keep this a vexata Quastio as long as they pleased, which their Predecessors had not done, and would not be for the Good of the Kingdom they should continue, yet we would still exercise our hereditary Right of Judges and Counsellors to His Majesty in such Cases. And we enforced and enlarged our former Reasons for the Amendments; and against the Proviso, which was of no Use, because our Amendments had settled convenient Days, and the Ends and Occasions were already agreed between the Two Houses in the Preamble and whole Scope of the Bill, and therefore their Lordships rejected the Proviso; their Amendments, if agreed to, having done the same Thing, and more suitable to the Ends and Intentions of the Bill, by limiting a shorter Time for disbanding, than the Proviso had done."

Lords Amendments adhered to.

The House, upon Consideration of the aforesaid Report, and what the Commons insisted upon, came to this Resolution; videlicet,

The Question being put, "Whether to adhere to the Amendments made by this House?"

It was Resolved in the Affirmative.

ORDERED, That this House does not agree with the House of Commons in this Proviso; and to signify these Resolutions at a Free Conference.

Message to H. C. for another Conference on this Subject.

A Message was sent to the House of Commons, by Sir Edward Lowe and Sir Wm. Childe:

To desire a present Free Conference, in the Painted Chamber, concerning the Matter of the last Free Conference.

The Managers are to speak at this Free Conference according to what was now in Debate, and to give the Reasons of their Lordships Resolutions upon the Debate.

The Messengers return with this Answer:

Answer.

That the House of Commons will give a present Free Conference, as is desired.

The House was adjourned during Pleasure, and the Lords went to the Conference; which being ended, the House was resumed.

Report of the Conference.

Then the Lord Privy Seal reported, "That the Managers had done what they were directed by the House, and have left the Bill with the House of Commons."

Adjourn.

Dominus Cancellarius declaravit præsens Parliamentum continuandum esse usque in diem Lunæ, primum diem Julii, 1678, hora decima Aurora, Dominis sic decernentibus.