House of Lords Journal Volume 14: 26 July 1689

DIE Veneris, 26 die Julii.

Domini tam Spirituales quam Temporales præsentes fuerunt:

PRAYERS.

Marq. de Halyfax Speaker pro Tempore.

Lords Reasons for insisting on their Amendments to the Bill for reversing Judgements against Oates.

The Earl of Rochester reported from the Committee Reasons, which they had prepared, to be offered at a Conference, in Answer to the Reasons of the Commons not agreeing to the Lords Amendments to the Bill for reversing the Two Judgements given against Titus Otes Clerk.

Which Reasons were read, as follow:

"The Lords insist on the First Amendment, for these Reasons:

"1. New Matter might have arisen between the First and the subsequent Trials, but nothing of this lies before them; nor has the Evidence, upon which the Verdicts were given, been yet examined.

"2ly, There does not yet appear to the Lords any Evidence, much less any Thing that is unquestionable, of any such Sums of Money expended upon the Jurors and Witnesses, as might render the Prosecution unfair, or corrupt; which the Lords conceive ought of Necessity to be proved, before it can reasonably be expected that they should depart from their Amendment.

"The Third Reason carries such Consequences after it, to the reversing so many Judgements as were given in a Course of many Years, and the Particulars relating to this Matter not appearing yet to the Lords by any Evidence that was laid before them, that the Lords cannot agree to it.

"The Lords insist upon the Second Amendment, for the same Reasons as were offered for the First.

"The Lords insist on the 3d Amendment; and think that this Sentence was unprecedented, notwithstanding the Precedents of the Star Chamber; for, this Judgement having been (fn. 1) on the King's Bench, no Precedent is offered of any such Judgements in that Court.

"The Lords insist on the 4th Amendment, for the same Reasons they offer for the First.

"The Lords think, that for the same Reasons which the Commons give the Affirmance of the Judgements in the King's Bench agreeing fully with these Judgements, the said Affirmance needs not be mentioned.

"The Lords insist upon the 5th Amendment, for the Reasons offered for the First.

"The Lords insist on the Clause (A), as safest for the Subject; it being very usual in declaratory Laws, not only to declare the Law, but also to enact it.

"The Lords insist on the Clause (B) for these Reasons:

"1. This not being a Reversal by Judgement, but by Act of Parliament, the Lords do not think themselves restrained to the Forms of Law that are to be observed in Judgements.

"2. The Lords lay no new Censure on Titus Oates; they only leave him in the State in which they found him, as to his being a Witness, till the Particulars are examined.

"3. The Lords intend not to bring in Question the Popish Plot; but they think it both for the Honour of the Nation and Religion, that the Validity of Titus Oates's Evidence for the future should not be allowed, nor a Conviction passed in the Form of Law be set aside, till the whole Matter of Fact be duly examined."

The House agreed to these Reasons.

Message to H. C. for a Conference concerning Oates's Bill.

A Message was sent to the House of Commons, by Sir Miles Cooke and Mr. Meredith:

To desire a present Conference, in the Painted Chamber, concerning the Subject-matter of the last Conference, touching the Bill for reversing the Two Judgements given against Titus Oates.

Address for Admiralty Books, concerning Miscarriages in Ireland.

ORDERED, That the Right Honourable the Earl of Shrewsbury and the Earl of Nottingham do humbly address to His Majesty, from this House, "That He would graciously be pleased to give Order, that the Books of the Admiralty may be communicated to the Committee of this House, in order to their Information concerning the Miscarriage of the Affairs of Ireland."

The Commons being ready for the Conference, the same Committee who drew the Reasons are to manage this Conference.

The House was adjourned during Pleasure, and the Lords went to the Conference; which being ended, the House was resumed.

Report of the Conference on Oates's Bill.

And the Earl of Rochester reported, "That the Lords who managed the Conference had delivered the Reasons, and left the Bill with the Members of the Commons."

Report concerning absent Lords.

Next, the Lord Cornwallis reported, "That the Committee for Privileges, on Consideration of the Order of the 8th of June last, relating to absent Lords, do find no Precedent for taking a Lord into Custody for being absent from the House. But their Lordships find, by the underwritten Precedents, that Lords have been sined for Absence:

"As, by the Order of the 9th of November 1689.

"By an Act of 31 H. VI.

"By an Entry in the Beginning of the Journal of H. VIII. Modus tenendi Parliament'."

His Lordship further said, "That the Committee have considered of the Order of the House, concerning the Lord Griffin; and they are of Opinion, That unless the House gives them further Directions what Penalty the Lord Griffin is to incur, upon not obeying a Proclamation by the King upon an Address from the House, the Committee cannot well draw up an Address that will be fit to be presented to His Majesty; and therefore in that Point desires the Direction of the House."

After a long Debate, it is ORDERED, That this Debate is adjourned till To-morrow.

Hele's Bill.

Hodie 2^a vice lecta est Billa, "An Act to enable Trustees to grant Leases of the Estate of Richard Hele Esquire."

ORDERED, That the Consideration of this Bill is committed to these Lords following:

Their Lordships, or any Three of them; to meet To-morrow, at Nine of the Clock in the Forenoon, in the Prince's Lodgings.

Small Tithes Bill.

ORDERED, That the Bill for the better collecting of Small Tithes shall be taken into Consideration on Monday Morning next.

Ly. Purbeck's Petition.

ORDERED, That the Petition of Elizabeth Villiers, commonly called Viscountess Purbeck, for and on the Behalf of her Grandson, &c. be, and is hereby, referred to be considered by the Committee to whom the Bill, intituled, "An Act for the better enabling the Trustees of the late Duke of Bucks to sell the Estate of the said Duke, for Payment of his Debts."

Adjourn.

Marq. de Halyfax, Orator Procerum pro Tempore, declaravit præsens Parliamentum continuandum esse usque in diem Sabbati, videlicet, 27^um diem instantis Julii, hora decima Aurora, Dominis sic decernentibus.