Journal of the House of Lords: Volume 15, 1691-1696. Originally published by His Majesty's Stationery Office, London, 1767-1830.
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DIE Jovis, 2 Martii.
Domini tam Spirituales quam Temporales præsentes fuerunt:
Mainstone versus Mainstone.
Upon hearing Counsel this Day, at the Bar, upon the Petition and Appeal of John Mainstone Gentleman, Nephew and Heir of William Mainstone, late of Woodberry Hall, in the County of Cambridge, Esquire, deceased, from a Decree of the Court of Chancery, the Six and Twentieth Day of November One Thousand Six Hundred Eighty-Nine, on the Behalf of Penelope Mainstone and William Clough; as also upon the Answers of Penelope Mainstone and William Clough put in thereunto:
After due Consideration had of what was offered thereupon, it is ORDERED and Adjudged, by the Lords Spiritual and Temporal in Parliament assembled, That the said Petition and Appeal of John Mainstone shall be, and is hereby, dismissed this House; and that the Decree therein complained of shall be, and is hereby, affirmed: And it is further ORDERED, That the said John Mainstone shall pay, or cause to be paid, unto the said Penelope Mainstone, the Sum of Forty Pounds, for her Costs sustained in defending the said Appeal in this House.
Greenland Trade, for regaining, &c. Bill.
The Earl of Stamford reported from the Committee, the Bill, intituled, "An Act for regaining, encouraging, and settling, the Greenland Trade," as fit to pass, with some Amendments.
Which were read Twice, and agreed to,
Then, Hodie 3a vice lecta est Billa, intituled, "An Act for regaining, encouraging, and settling, the Greenland Trade."
The Question was put, "Whether this Bill, with the Amendments, shall pass?"
It was Resolved in the Affirmative.
Message to H. C. with Amendments to it.
A Message was sent to the House of Commons, by Sir Miles Cooke and Sir Adam Ottley:
To return the said Bill, and desire their Concurrence to the said Amendments.
Sea-water, to make fresh, Bill.
Hodie 1a vice lecta est Billa, intituled, "An Act for the making Sea-water fresh, clear, and wholesome."
Hungerford versus Pollard.
The House being this Day moved, "That (notwithstanding the Appeal depending in this House, wherein Jane Hungerford and William Downe and others are Appellants, and Thomas Pollard, Infant, per Guardian, Respondent) William Downe, One of the Appellants, may pay the Interest of the Sum of Three Hundred Fifty-six Pounds, Eleven Shillings, and Eight Pence (Part of Purchase-money remaining in his Hands), and by him paid by Order of the Court of Chancery, before the said Appeal brought:"
It is ORDERED, by the Lords Spiritual and Temporal in Parliament assembled, That the said William Downe shall be and is at Liberty to pay unto Margaret Cave, Guardian to Thomas Pollard, the Interest due and owing for the said Three Hundred Fifty-six Pounds, Eleven Shillings, and Eight Pence, the same being not comprehended in the said Appeal.
Then the Amendments made by the House of Commons to the Bill, intituled, "An Act to enable Roger Price Esquire to sell some Part of his Estate, for Payment of Portions to the Daughters of John Price Esquire deceased," were read Twice, and agreed to; and ORDERED, That the Commons have Notice thereof.
Double Returns of Members, Bill to prevent.
Hodie 1a vice lecta est Billa, intituled, "An Act to prevent false and double Returns of Members to serve in Parliament."
Smith versus Welch.
Upon reading the Petition of Jonathan and Joseph Welch; shewing, "That their Cause was appointed to be heard this Day, to which Sir Edward Smith and others are Appellants; and the Petitioners being informed, that it is put off to the Ninth Instant, at the Request of the Petitioners, which is only for Delay; and praying a short Day may be appointed for hearing thereof:"
It is ORDERED, by the Lords Spiritual and Temporal in Parliament assembled, That this House will hear the said Cause, by Counsel on both Sides, at the Bar, To-morrow, at Nine of the Clock in the Forenoon; and that the Lord Mohun's Business shall come on at Twelve of the Clock precisely.
Ireland, Informations concerning the State of:
The Order being read, for further considering the State and Condition of the Kingdom of Ireland, and for the several Persons to deliver in their Informations in Writing;
Sir W. Gore's;
Sir William Gore was called in; and his Information read, he being at the Bar.
Then he swore, "That what is mentioned in his Paper to be of his own Knowledge is true; and what is upon Hear-say, he verily believes to be true; (videlicet,)
"In Obedience to an Order of the Lords Spiritual and Temporal assembled in Parliament, the 28th of February, 1692, I Sir William Gore, of Donnegall, in the County of Donnegall and Kingdom of Ireland, Baronet, do hereby humbly certify,
"That a Part of Their Majesties Forces had Free Quarter in the County of Donnegall, and other Counties in the Kingdom of Ireland, during the late War, and some Time after, upon Their Majesties Protestant Subjects, and took much of their Goods, for which they did not make Satisfaction; and that, when I demanded Satisfaction of some of the Officers of Colonel Tyffin's Regiment and others, who quartered longest there, they did assure me, "their Pay was stopped, to satisfy the said Quarters, and what was taken from the Inhabitants by their Men."
"That about Fifteen Hundred Irish Officers and Soldiers, most of them armed, under the Command of Brigadier O'Donnel (as they stiled him), were quartered for the most Part on the Protestant Inhabitants of the County of Donnegall, with a great Rabble of Wives, Children, and other Dependants, for a considerable Part of the Winter, Anno 1691; during which Time, their Officers took up Cattle by Force from the Country People, and particularly from James Hammon and Hugh Henderson, who live near the Town of Donnegall; by which, they and many others were extremely impoverished: That the said Quarters were not satisfied, or Cattle paid for when I left that Kingdom, which was about Four Months ago; nor can I hear that they have been paid for since.
"That the said Officers and Soldiers were extreme insolent during their being quartered as aforesaid; demanding of me the Abbey of Donnegall to say Mass in; and causing their Priest to say it publicly in the Town, and next House to the Castle of Donnegall; who, being rebuked for it, said, "He was King William's Chaplain, as being Chaplain to One of Brigadier O'Donnell's Regiments that was in the King's Pay;" as I was informed by those that spoke to him on this Occasion. They also were extreme importunate for Billets to quarter their Women.
"That the Methods of disarming them were thus: They were warned to appear, and bring in their Arms, on a certain Day, to the Governor of the County: That they knew they were to be disarmed, some of their Officers having told me so; by which Means they brought in a most inconsiderable Number of unfixed Arms, and kept the best, which I believe they have still: That I pressed the Governor of the County to clap up One of the Officers, that I knew had a great Number of Muskets, and did not deliver them; but he excused himself, for Want of Orders.
"That I have been lately informed, by Letters, that the King's Rent, which is a Cheofry, payable out of most Estates into the Exchequer of Ireland, are demanded from the waste Estates in Connaght and elsewhere, which may keep them waste; none daring to plant them, for fear of being distrained: That I have received but about Four Pounds since the Year 1688, out of an Estate that pays about Sixty-six Pounds Yearly into the Exchequer: That, by the present collecting the said Rents, many Estates may be ruined, and run more and more in Arrear, except Their Majesties will be pleased to forbear, till the Wisdom of a Parliament there may take such Course in it as may be to Their Satisfaction.
"All which I most humbly certify as Truth, having been a Spectator of most of the Things herein mentioned: As Witness my Hand, this First of March, 1692.
Sir John Magill's;
Sir John Magill was called in; and his Information read to him, as followeth, being sworn to the Truth of it as before.
"An Account of what I know relating to the Affairs of Ireland, done by Order of the Right Honourable the House of Lords.
"I know that several of the Army, since the Peace declared in Ireland, have exacted Subsistence-money and Quarters, both from the Gentry and private Houses, to the utter Ruin of some poor Gentlemen, who had the greatest Part of what they had taken from them by the Papists. And they pressed the Horses out of the Farmers Ploughs; whereof several Examinations were taken, and sent to the Lords Justices, without any Redress given by them: But, instead of Redress, the very Examinations were sent back to the Officers, which occasioned them to threaten the Justices of the Peace; and they, seeing the Government so slow in redressing the Country, were discouraged from sending any more Complaints; some Officers refusing to give Bills, and in many Places were given not for the Half received from the Country: The Bills given by the Soldiers were many of them returned to the Commissioners appointed to receive them, and, as some of the Soldiers told me, were detained from them out of their Pay. Yet the Country where I was concerned had not any Satisfaction, to my Knowledge; but were denied Certificates for the Bills they had given.
"The Lord Lieutenant's proroguing the Parliament before any Grievances were redressed, his Treatment of some of the Members that petitioned for Leave to send Agents hither, who were to lay before Their Majesties the Reasons of the House of Commons Proceedings, and such of the Grievances and Embezzlements of Their Majesties Revenue and Forfeitures as they could get in so short a Session; the turning out of Offices such of the Members as did not agree with his Excellency's Opinion; the Licenses given by the Lords Justices to the Irish Papists, to carry Arms; the Protections given to the Papists, against the just Action of the Protestants; their being put into Possession of their Estates; are in Part the Reasons that that Kingdom is so unsettled, that not only some of the now Planters, but also of the old Inhabitants, have removed with their Families and Effects, and discourages many that formerly lived in that Kingdom form returning; which, if not prevented in Time, may render that impoverished Kingdom a farther Charge to England.
"I can only give an Account of some restored in the Counties of Doune and Antrim; the Earl of Antrim to an Estate worth £. 5000 per Annum, Cormack O'Neale to £. 300 per Annum, Phillimy Meginnis to near £. 400 per Annum; Daniel M'ginnis to near £. 400 per Annum; and several others of small Estates, whose Names I do not now remember, are in Possession of the Estates they possessed, some of them being in a better Condition, by plundering and robbing the Protestants, than they were formerly. Who were restored to forfeited Estates in other Countries, I know not; but am credibly informed, a great many are.
"And I humbly beg Leave to assure your Lordships, that I think there never was a House of Commons in Ireland, that were and are more willing and ready to serve the Crown of England, to the utmost of their Power, and that has a greater Sense of the Expences and Blood that unfortunate Kingdom cost this.
"This is all at present I can give your Lordships an Account of the Grievances of that Kingdom, to my Remembrance: But, if Agents had got Leave to come hither, they might have been prepared to have given this most Honourable House a more particular Account.
Sir Fra. Blundell's;
Sir Francis Blundell was called in, and his Information read, as followeth; who was sworn to the Truth of it, as before.
"The Report of Sir Francis Blundell Baronet, before the Right Honourable the Lords in Parliament, the First of March, 169 2/3.
"That he has been out of Ireland above Eight Years last past, till the last Summer he went thither to settle his private Affairs.
"That, travelling into several Parts of that Kingdom, he found the Cry of the Country to be, about the Plunder and Quarters of the Army, for that the Bills left by the Army for Quarters were not paid the Inhabitants; and that his Tenants offered him those Bills for Rent, alledging, "they could not pay any Rent till the Bills were paid them."
"That, sitting in Parliament there, he observed several Persons come before the Committee of Grievances, with several Charges against Mr. Cullyford, One of the late Commissioners of the Revenue there, for having seized and received Corn, Stock, and Goods, of a considerable Value, which he had not discounted for; and that he had set forseited Lands at an Under-value to several Persons, in Trust for himself: To all which several Charges, he offered his Privilege as a Member of the House of Commons in England; so the Parliament there, in Respect to that House, would not proceed against him.
"That the said Mr. Cullyford was in like Manner charged before a Committee of the Honourable House of Commons in England, by Colonel Fitzgerald, to have received, from him and the rest of the Commissioners for Seizures, forfeited Goods to the Value of £. 135,000, which he had not discounted for.
Sir Francis Brewster's;
Sir Francis Brewster was called in, and his Information read, as followeth; who was sworn to the Truth of it, as before.
"May it please your Lordships,
"I humbly pray your Lordships Pleasure, whether, in the Account your Lordships are pleased to command from me of the State of Ireland, I may use Names, without which the Account I shall make will not be perfect.
"That then, I humbly lay at your Lordships Feet, will chiefly arise from my Observations in the Parliament of Irel'd, in which I had the Honour to be a Member, and One of the Committee of Grievances and Accompts.
"Before the Committee of Grievances, there was brought so many Complaints of the unequal Disposition of Lands, and chiefly against Mr. Cullyford, that the Committee, fearing they should not have Time to proceed on greater Grievances of the Nation, made One general Vote, "That it was a Grievance and great Breach of Trust, for the Commissioners of the Revenue to set forfeited Lands to themselves, or any in Trust for them, or any employed under them;" too many Instances of which came before the Committee.
"I dare not presume on your Lordships Time, to relate the many grievous Complaints of dispoiled Protestants turned out of the Farms they were formerly in, and some that had their Lands taken away from them after they had ploughed and sowed it, and then set to Irish for a Fifth of what they paid.
"Others, their Land seized contrary to Law, their Goods and Cattle taken out of the Country, and brought to Dublin, that so they might be under an Attachment for Debt in England; being asked, "Why they complained not to the Government;" gave such Reasons as I am loth to repeat.
"With your Lordships Leave, I now come to the Disposition of forfeited Lands; and though the Methods pretended for setting them was very fair, yet the Practice was differing from it, Articles as used, that few had Liberty of bidding for the Lands they lived on; but, by all I could find in the Books and Rent Roll, the greatest Part of the Lands were set for private Advantage to Favourites, or some concerned in the Revenue, or in Trust for others, as the Lord Chief Baron Heyley, Judge Lindon, several of the best Farms near Dublin taken in the Name of a Hackney Coachman; by the best Information I could get, and make out of the Books and Rent Roll, the Lands were generally set for about One Fourth of the present Value.
"I found, by the Books and Rent Roll, that the forfeited Lands were set the First Year for £. 32,000; and this was when only Two of the Provinces were entirely under His Majesty's Obedience. The Second Year, when the other Two Provinces were under His Majesty's Government and entire Peace, then all the forfeited Lands were set for about £. 10,000 per Annum. And the Reason of this being asked, I was answered by some in the Revenue, "That it was the Articles of Limerick made so great a Fall in the Forfeitures;" but that could not be the Cause, for there was much more added to the Forfeitures by the Surrender of Gallaway and Limerick, which brought in Two Provinces, than there was restored; though it was said, by the Lords Justices Interpretations of the Articles of Gallway,"there was some put in Possession of Lands they had no Right to." This (fn. 1) Disposition of the forseited Lands was so notorious, that it put the Committee of Accompts off from any further Inquiry; and intended to report of the Lands, as they must of the forfeited Goods, that they were generally embezzled, in my humble Opinion, to the Value of some Hundred Thousands of Pounds.
"The next Thing the Committee of Accompts looked into was, the Accompts of forfeited Goods; which was so framed, as would have taken up Months to have brought it into Methods that might be understood. The Accompt seemed nothing but a Trick; neither Check nor Vouchers, Method nor Form, who to charge; but so loose, that every Officer employed in them must be examined, before a Charge could be made on any one of them: But, upon the Whole, I found there was not brought to the King's Accompt above £. 1800, and about £. 5000 charged for Goods, as I remember on the Army, that they had taken; but I saw not such Care taken to charge others that had greater Shares of the Goods; so that of £. 135,000 Worth of Goods delivered into the Commissioners Charge, and near as much said to be privately disposed of in the Country by the Commissioners of the Revenue by private Orders from Mr. Cullyford; of all, there appears not £. 10,000 brought to Their Majesties Accompt.
"Yet I must acquaint your Lordships, that there seemed great Diligence in the Government to enlarge the Forfeitures, as will appear in an Instance I beg your Lordships Leave to mention.
"There was one Ivy, now Knight of the Shire for the County of Waterford; this Gentleman, upon his Flight for England from the Irish Government, had his Estate and Goods seized, and upon his Return found a Quantity of his Wool in King James's Stores in Waterford; upon which, he made Application to the Government to have his Wool restored, but could obtain nothing but References from One Set of Commissioners to another; but at last had his final Answer, "That he must go to the Exchequer;" and they told him, "He must proceed by due Methods of Law;" which he did. The King's Counsel demurred, and he obliged by the Court to join or answer. I beg your Lordships Pardon, if I express it not according to the Rules of Law; but so it was, upon some Nicety in the Law, Judgement was given against him, and he lost his Wool: This was set forth in a Petition to the Parliament, and put into my Hands to move; but there was in our Sessions no Room for private Grievances, our public were so many; and therefore the Gentleman was only pitied, among the Numbers of afflicted Protestants.
"The Irish that came in upon the King's First Proclamation were better used, having the right Way to get their Goods, which few of the English could do.
"The next Inquiry, may it please your Lordships, that the Committee of Accompts made, was relating to the Stores; and in the Manage of them found Mr. Robinson to be principally concerned. The Stores that were left by King James were said to be great, both of Provisions and Cloaths; but of all, there did appear nothing. The Noise indeed was great, that Mr. Robinson had managed the Stores to the Advantage of somebody, to the Value of £. 80,000; but so ingeniously is it managed, that I presume nothing material can be proved, whilst the Manage of that Kingdom in these Things are of a PS— Mr. Robinson is, besides his other Employments, One of the Deputies to the Lord Coningsby in the Treasury; and whoe'er hath Power in that, influences most Men of Employments in that Kingdom. One Artifice I was told of by a Commissioner of the forfeited Goods, that was used in Corke, which seemed designed to serve for a Pretence in general for the Embezzlements of the Stores; and that was keeping Corn, Oats I think it was, 5 or 6 Feet thick, till it rotted, when at the same Time both Soldiers and Inhabitants were in Extremity; this Rotting of Corn, is thought, will be a general Article through the Kingdom. It was said, that there was Quantities of Beef, Butter, and other Provisions, sent for France; and that a Ship of Wool, taken out of the Stores of Waterford by Mr. Robinson, under Pretence of being used at the Siege of Corke, was disposed of by Mr. Robinson; and some Time after, a Ship was taken by one Captain Pedor, Commander of One of Their Majesties Ships coming from Brest to Ireland, loaden with French Goods; the Captain brought her into Waterford, and there received Orders from the Government to deliver her up to the Officers of the Custom-house, for that she belonged to Dublin. The Captain refusing, threatening Letters came to him; and then he said, "They had best be quiet, for that he had taken such Letters of their settling a Correspondence in France as would do their Business."
"This Relation of the Ship I had from a Colonel, that is at the Door ready to give your Lordships a more full Account, as he had it from the Captain's own Mouth.
"I shall now; with your Lordships Leave, give the Remarks I made on the Manage of the Treasury, which was never before in the Hands of the Chief Governor: The former Methods were, that all Receipts and Payments were transacted by Exchequer Acquittances; and they were entered in several Offices, the last of which was The Pells; where all was entered, and every Monday Morning the Book brought before the Chief Governor, by which he knew what was in the Treasury. This cannot now be practicable, where most of the Receipts and Payments are by Paper Assignments, by which Means there is no Check on the Treasury, nor indeed on the respective Collectors and Receivers; the Consequence of which, is to be feared, hath and doth affect the ill Payment of the Army, and that ruins the Country; which is the Reason of my laying it before your Lordships.
"There was some Motion made in the Parliament of Irel'd, of the Hardships the Country lay under by Free Quarters; but it was unanimously agreed by the House, that there was a Necessity for the Army so to do, and that the Country freely gave them the Bread out of their Mouths, and the Cloaths off their Backs, to support the Army when they had no Pay: But that which grieved the Subject was, the irregular and unlimited Way of taking their Corn and Cattle from them, by which more was destroyed than eat; and that brought a Famine in the Country, and the Loss of Thousands of People. This was complained of to the Lords Justices; and Offers made by the Country, either to pay the Army, or give them such Quantities of Provisions as they should need; and so keep the Country in a Possibility of supplying both the Army and themselves: But this was rejected; which, together with the Belief that there was enough, if rightly applied, of Forfeitures and Stores, to have maintained the Army without any Burthen to the Country, caused hard Reflections on the Lord Coningsby. I speak not this to reflect on his Lordship; for that I never had any Concern with his Lordship, but as my Estate lay under the common Calamity of his Government.
"There was another Grievance, much complained of; and that was, the giving Protections to Irish, against just Debts owing to the English, to such as were not under the Articles of Limerick; when poor destroyed Protestants were left to the Severity of the Irish Suits.
"I must now beg Leave to lay at your Lordships Feet the present Condition of that ever-loyal and obedient City, the City of Dublin, of which I have the Honour to be a Member. This City hath never till now been denied their Right of chusing Magistrates, which, under the Cover of a Clause in the new Rules of approving, is become an Imposition, excluding any Choice until the Man put on them to be chose. This is the Case of the present Mayor, now in the Second Year of his Mayoralty. The City at first, according to their ancient Custom, chose another; but were rejected. I hope your Lordships will not take me to reflect on the Man, when I say, as he was the last of many in Turn to be chose, so he was the least in his Fortune; there being many of considerable Estates, and known Integrity and Loyalty to Their Majesties, over whose Heads he came.
"I must further pray your Lordships Leave to mind your Lordships, that this Gentleman, by the Interest of some it is thought that still promotes him, was recommended by His Majesty, when in Ireland, to be Treasurer of the City: But His Majesty, on the First Application, graciously recalled His First Recommendation, saying, "He would abridge none of the Privileges of the City." But, in the Election of this Mayor, they were not so used by the Lords Justices; and as this Imposition was new unto them, so it was unexpected; having so lately received, with their Deliverance, His Majesty's gracious Promise, "That they should enjoy all their Privileges;" and so they did, by His Majesty's Command, until this Command of the Lords Justices. These new Rules were in Force in the best Days Irel'd ever saw, under the happy Government of the late Duke of Ormond; but his Grace never made Use of them for more than they were intended, a Power in the Hands of the Government to lay aside such as were questionable in their Loyalty, which that City hath never yet been tainted in.
"I dare not stay your Lordships any longer, to enumerate all the Oppressions that poor Kingdom lies under. But what I have said, I humbly affirm, will be asserted by Thousands in Irel'd.
"All which I humbly pray your Lordships to receive, as in Truth I intend it, for Their Majesties Service, and the Relief of Their oppressed Subjects of Ireland; among whom I am One.
Ly. Cromwell, Count. of Ardglass's;
Then the Lady Cromwell was called in, and a Chair set for her at the Table; and she sat down, being a Peeress of this Realm; her Information being read, and she upon her Honour declared the Truth of it as before, which is as followeth; (videlicet,)
"Some Accounts of the Affairs of Ireland to the Lords assembled in Parliament, given by Katherine Countess of Ardglass.
"In November, 89, from the Camp at Dundalk, Colonel Villiers' Regiment of Horse came to quarter on my Estate and Daughters, to whom I am Guardian, in and about Down Patrick, Three Troops of Colonel Coy's Regiment; who, according to the General's Proclamation, were to pay Three and Six Pence per Week for their Diet, Provision being then very dear, having lost 5000 Head of Black Cattle, besides all their Sheep belonging to me and my Tenants; and moreover, by the same Proclamation, they were ordered to give Sixteen Shillings an Hogshead for Oats, and Twelve Pence a Thrush for their Hay, though the current Rate for Oats at that Time in the Country was 28 s. the Hogshead: They continued there till the 22d of June 90. When they had been there Three Months, my Agent petitioned the General, to let him know the Poverty of the Country, and how ill the People were used by the Army, in taking Double the Proportion of Oats from the Tenants which the General allowed for each Horse, and selling it to Alehouses, and taking what Provision came to the Market, and in taking the Horses that came in with Fire to furnish the Town, to ride up and down upon the said Officers and Troopers Occasions; and many of them were lost, so the Tenants could not go on with their Labour. And though my Servant did offer to get Colonel Villiers furnished with Coals for 20 s. per Tun, and Turff for a Groat per Load; yet he would buy none: But said, "While there was an House upon the Estate, he would not want Firing." And when they had pulled down all the Houses that were empty, on Sunday Morning when the People were at Church, by the Colonel's own particular Order, they pulled down a House where a Woman was sick in Bed, and smothered her. In short, there were pulled down of Houses to the Number of Fifty, which Ruins still remain; and in the Country they pulled down so many of my Tenants Houses, that the Land lies still waste. The General sent out a Proclamation, to be placed upon the Market-house in Downe, "That there should be no more such Things done;" but still they went on with their Extravagances. So my Agent wrote to me to go over, being then here; for all my Tenants would be ruined, if I did not appear there before the Army marched. Whereupon I went, and got thither in May 90; and found the Place most miserably ruined, and all the Grain that was laid up for my own Use was taken by Force away, and neither Money nor Bills were given for it; and I was forced to send Twenty Miles for Grain, and give Thirty-six Shillings per Hogshead, for which the Army was ordered to give Bills but for Sixteen. And I had also Colonel Viller's whole Regiment of Horse grazing in my Meadows and best Grounds, and an Hundred and Forty of Colonel Coy's, and an Hundred and Thirty of Colonel Byerlye's; my whole Stables full of their Horses at Soil, that I could not have Grass for One of my own; and yet I never had a Bill for it, though they had them there for Two Months, and the General ordered Twelve (fn. 2) per Week for each Horse, and the Officers agreed with my Agent to give him so. When they were to march, I expected to have received Money for what then was due. Then they were ordered to give Bills; and the Tenants of the Lands where the Men were quartered brought Troopers Bills to the Officers; and Captain Walpole signed many of the Bills, and gave a particular Bill of Six Pounds for the Grass of his own Horses. The Lieutenant Foulkes signed all Bills for Colonel Russell's Troop. Captain Poultney signed all Bills brought him the First Day; but the 2d Day there were Bills to the Value of £. 20, or more, with the Troopers Hand to them; and he would not sign nor receive them, because they were not brought to him the Day before; which could not be done, by reason the Troopers themselves had not signed the Bills before. Captain Rogers signed some Bills; but, hearing that his Colonel and Captain Carpenter would sign none, he gave over. When I went to know the Reason why Colonel Villers had taken up the Troopers Bills from the Tenants, and had not given his own; he said, "He would draw a general List of the whole Debt, and sign it, and leave it with the Dean of Downe;" which I found afterwards he did not do, though the Dean went to the Camp of Logh Brickian, to desire it of him; but he refused it. Colonel Coy signed some Bills, and several were not signed. There were 200 Horses taken, for to carry their Bag and Baggages, for which I had no Bills, nor were the Horses ever returned; so I was forced (though I had never a Groat out of my Estate for Two Years) to supply my Tenants with Money to buy more, nor durst my Agent distrain for any Rent while they were there, for the Horsemen rescued and beat the Bailiffs. I sent at several Times that Summer, and the Winter following, by the Government's Order, 200 Horses, Sacks, and Drivers, with Money to bear their Charges, to carry Grain to the Frontier Garrisons; and most of the Horses were lost, or so disabled that we never got Good of them. I petitioned the King, at Limerick, against the Officers, for not signing the Bills; on which, Order was given that the Sheriff should take an Account of the unsigned Bills. And afterwards the Government ordered Two Justices in every Barony to have all the Bills sworn to, and the Affidavits returned with the Officers Bills; which was accordingly done. And I took that Care, that the Bills were so drawn up that the Tenants should charge the Officers and Troopers much less for themselves and Horses than was ordered by the General's Proclamation, that the Army might thereby have no Reason to complain. Colonel Coy's Regiment came, in October 1691, to quarter in and about Down, till they came for England; and though they had Three Baronies given them for Quarters, had I my due Proportion, there had not fallen a Troop to my Share. Yet I had Three quartered upon me, and the rest of the Three Baronies paid their Subsistence. They followed the same Trade of taking the Double Proportion of Grain, and sold it for Eight Shillings an Hogshead more in ready Money than what they were to give their Bills for; and where they saw a good Haggard of Grain, they would have what they pleased out of it. Some of Colonel Pope's Men took Ten Hogsheads of my own Oats, which I had sold for Eleven Pounds, and gave me a Bill but for Six Pounds. Some of Sir Wm. Russell's Men took Eight Hogsheads of Oats, which I had sold for Nine Pounds, and gave me a Bill but for Four Pounds, Ten Shillings. The Officers ordered every Man to get Money from their respective Landlords, to supply them with Necessaries. If the Landlord refused, they took their Goods and Chattels, to make Sale of them; which made great Complaint amidst the poor People; and those that refused, were threatened to be beaten, and their Goods brought into Town to sell; of which I sent to the Officers to complain; and they said, "They could not help it, for the Men had no Money, and they could not go barefoot; nor had they Shirts or other Necessaries." So that, before I would have my Tenants abused, I desired the Officers to enquire into the Men's Wants, and gave each Man a Note what Money his Landlord should give them; and if the Government would not relieve us, it should be paid accordingly. The Officers themselves desired me to petition the Government; for they were willing their Wants should be known. Which I accordingly did; but it was so long before I had any Answer, that the Money was forced to be paid, as also for the shoeing their Horses and cleansing their Arms. The Officers gave their Bills for the whole Debts; and told me, "They hoped I should be suddenly paid, for they heard there was £. 70,000 come from England; and they hoped 'twould be applied to that Use; for they had received none since they came into their Winter Quarters." The Landlords were forced, where the Men found Fault with their Diet, to agree with the Horse-men to give 5 and 6 s. per Week to diet themselves, though they were allowed by their Bills but Three. We also raised a Militia, and sent them to reduce Connaught, and paid them Five (fn. 3) per Man a Week, and the Officers accordingly: But they were promised, by the Government, to have an additional Pay; but they never had any, but Four Days Provision of Bread, and that so mouldy that 'twas not to be eaten; and they were out Five Months. It was said, the Queen had ordered the Militia of the North Money; if so, it must lie in the Government's Hands, for they never had it, and we were forced to be at the whole Charge. And how well we were able to bear this, and the Losses both by the Irish and English Army, I leave your Lordships to be Judges. As to myself, I lost the Profits of my whole Estate for Three Years; I had all my Stock, which was very considerable, seized by the Sheriff, being an Absentee as they called it, and my House pillaged by Colonel Dempsey of the Irish Army, and burnt my Trunks of Paper to a great Value. I have returned all my Bills and Affidavits to the Commissioners in Irel'd, and often have made my Application to the Government for the Certificates of the said Debts, though I am certainly informed by the Officers that it is stopped from them: Wherefore I think it very hard, that if what the Army had from me had been sold at the Country Rates, it had amounted to above £. 5000; and my Bills and Affidavits amount not to above £. 2500.
Col. Fr. Hamilton's;
Colonel Frederick Hamilton was called in, and his Information was read to him, as followeth; being sworn to the Truth of it, as before.
"To the Lords Spiritual and Temporal.
"The Answer of Colonel Frederick Hamilton, to the Affairs of Ireland.
"That, during the War in that Kingdom, I was the most Part of the Time in the Field; that, soon after the War was ended, I was commanded for England, and thence into Flanders, where I was at the Time of the Sitting of the Parliament in Ireland, when first an Inquiry was made in the Management of the Civil Affairs of that Kingdom, of which I can give no particular Relation.
"As to the Question about a Ship brought into the Bay of Waterford; it was occasioned by some Discourse, amongst several other Things, with Sir Francis Brewster, in a Coffee-house, where I said, "I was told that one Captain Pedder had taken One of the Transport Ships (on her Return) that had carried the Irish Forces from Lymrick to Brest, and made her a Prize, for having French Goods on Board; that he brought the Ship into the Bay of Waterford; where when he found an Order came from the Government to have her restored to the Owners, he carried her for England, and here sold her: That, coming again to the Bay of Waterford, he seized on another Ship, and restored her to the Owners: But, hearing he was threatened for the Ship he had formerly taken, he said, "He had done nothing but what he would justify; and that he had found Letters in the Ship that would make some ashamed, if they prosecuted him."
"This Discourse having been public in a Coffeehouse, and my Knowledge of the Affairs of Ireland so little; I was surprized to be summoned before your Lordships.
James Sloane was called in, and his Information read, as followeth; being sworn to the Truth of it, as before.
"An Account relating to some of the Affairs in Ireland, given by Mr. Sloane to the Right Honourable the Lords Spiritual and Temporal in Parliament assembled.
"In Obedience to your Lordships Commands, I humbly give this Account of some Things I have seen and observed, or credibly heard, of the Affairs of that unfortunate Kingdom; out of which, by your Lordships Direction, I shall omit many other Things which I have only by Informations, though I believe the same may be well proved, concerning the State and Affairs of that Kingdom: And if this shall be of any Public Service, either to this or that Kingdom, shall reckon it more than a Reward sufficient to repair any Injury can be done me on this Account.
"It was in August last I went into Irel'd, partly on my own private Business, and partly to settle some Affairs relating to my Lord Lisburne, who had left me One of his Executors and Trustees of his Estate; and, being there, was chosen a Member of the House of Commons, which was the chief Occasion of my seeing or observing what I did on this unfortunate Subject.
One of the great Grievances, and that which is most immediately felt by the Subjects there, I take to be, that the Army there have not been better paid; and that, by reason thereof, since the War ended, they have been, contrary to the known Laws (as they said, for Want of Pay or Subsistence) in many Places of that Kingdom, necessitated often to take Free Quarter, not only for Meat, Drink, and Lodging; but, to supply themselves with Cloaths, and other Necessaries, have taxed, exacted, and received from the Country, great Sums of Money, and, where the same was not paid, in many Places distrained for the same, of which I heard many Complaints, and that few or none could ever get any Redress; and on that Account believe there is due to the Country above £. 200,000, which hath tended to the Ruin of many Persons and Families there. And if this were an End of it, that which is past, might be the easier forgot: But, as I am credibly informed by late Accounts from thence, Free Quarter and Taxing the Subject is in divers Places continued to this Time, or some few Weeks since, and, if not prevented for the future by the better Pay and Order of the Army, may tend to the great Impoverishment and Destruction of that Kingdom. Yet I am not surprized it should be so; for it was publicly told us in the House of Commons, as I remember, by Mr. Poultney and Mr. Davies, concerned in or about the Government there, "That, unless we would pass the Money Bills as brought from the Council Board, the Army would take Free Quarter;" or to that Effect. But, as appears to me, there is the less Necessity for it now (were the Public Money rightly applied) for that, as Mr. Poultney brought the Papers from my Lord Lieutenant to the House of Commons, considering the List of the Civil and Military Establishment of Ireland, which was so far from being underrated, that it was observed that Abatement might reasonably be made thereout in such a Time of Distress as this is there; and considering likewise the Calculations of the Revenue, which, by what I have heard from those well skilled therein, I do believe was at a great Under-value; yet, to supply the Defects thereof, and to support the Expence of the Government there, the Sum demanded was no more than £. 70,000 to discharge all; towards the Supply whereof, a Bill hath passed, for an additional Excise on Beer, Ale, and other Liquors, which, at a very moderate and one of the lowest Computations, I heard was reckoned at £. 30,000, and others computed far more; and the rest was intended to be supplied by a Poll Bill, if the Parliament had not been prorogued before they had Time to do it.
I have heard many Complaints of the Misapplications and Embezzlements of the Real and Personal forfeited Estates, wherewith the People found themselves the more sensibly aggrieved, for that, when the Money was wanting to support the Expence of the Government, the Parliament were called upon to make it good; and therefore this was voted to be a great Grievance. Pursuant to that Vote, the Committee of Grievances began to enter upon particular Inquiries of the Revenue and forfeited Estates; and the First Man, I remember, fell in their Way, was Mr. Culliford; who being acquainted that he stood charged with the taking into his Custody several forfeited Goods, and the disposing thereof to his own Use, when he was One of the Commissioners of the Revenue; he told the Committee, "That he was a Member of the Parliament of England; and though he was willing to wave his own Privilege, yet the Privilege of the House of Commons of England might be concerned therein, which he offered to their Consideration;" or to that Effect: And the Debate thereof was afterwards adjourned by the House, and never determined for or against his Privilege. But, to prevent the Loss of the Testimony, Witnesses were examined there; and by what had before passed here at the Treasury against him, and what was there, I think it plainly appeared, and of the same Opinion seemed generally the rest of all who heard it examined, that he was guilty of very great Breaches of Trust, when he was One of the Commissioners of the Revenue, by seizing and converting to his own Use forfeited Goods of considerable Value, and by letting or procuring Leases in Trust for himself of the Mills and Wears of Killmaniham, Mr. Keiriff's Estate, the Cranage and Wharsage of Corke, which, as of late exacted, was affirmed in Proof, by Persons of Credit there, to be a new Exaction and Oppression upon the Merchants first set up by his own Means; and Mr. Warren of Carduffe's Estate, of considerable Yearly Values, at very inconsiderable Rents; to which he added the Estate of one Mr. Sweetman adjacent to him, who had been under some Prosecution or Accusation for the Murder of some Soldiers near Dublin, and became Mr. Culliford's Tenant for his own Estate, and was never after prosecuted that I heard of.
The Committee of the Commons were likewise upon Inquiries of other Leases let at great Undervalues; and about £. 130,000 or more said to be returned by the Commissioners of forfeited Personal Estates to the Commissioners of the Revenue, of which it was believed a small Accompt had been made to Their Majesties; and had several Papers and Books brought before the Committee, which were, as seemed to me, so general, confused, and imperfect, that they could not make a full Discovery thereby; and were likewise on other Enquiries after other Embezzlements of the Revenue and Forfeitures, but were prorogued before they could arrive at the same. Divers other Ways there are of lessening the Forfeitures; as, by reversing of Outlawries, and thereby the former Proprietors restored; and some of them, as credibly said, not within any Articles but what they have made for themselves since the War ended; and also by Grants, or Promises of Grants, to the Lord Sidney, Lord Atblone, Lord Conynsby, and others, to that Degree, that, by a late credible Account I have from Ireland, there remains little or nothing of the clear Forfeitures, but what is pitched upon, or in a Way of Grant, to some Great Person.
It was much complained of the suffering so many Papists to keep Arms, and many of them to be in the now Standing Army, of which the Members in the House from their several Countries gave many Accounts; and the House of Commons had that Apprehension thereof, and that the same might greatly endanger the Government, that they sent to the Lord Lieutenant for Remedy thereof, or to that Effect; which his Excellency said he would take Care to do, as his Answer was reported to the House, or to that Effect.
And it was likewise a general Complaint, and Accounts thereof given to the House or Committee of the House, of hindering the Protestants from their due Course at Law against the Papists, and illegal Protections granted to the Papists, of which there were Instances given; and when the Reason was asked why so many or such Persons should be protected, it was publicly answered by the said Mr. Davies, who, as was said, had a Hand in making the same out, "that it might be Arcana Imperii, and not fit to be told;" or to that Effect.
But that which I apprehend to be the greatest Discouragement of all to the Protestants, and Encouragement to the Papists, is the Manner of proroguing the Parliament, and what hath happened since that Time.
I think I may without Flattery of them say, That there never was a House of Commons of that Kingdom of better Value than they generally were, either for their Estates, or the Sincerity of their Principles to the English Protestant Interest, and who on Occasions expressed the grateful Sense they had of the great Kindness of this Kingdom, many Ways expressed towards them for their Relief in their Distress. We received the Lord Lieutenant's First Speech with great Joy; for thereby he told us, "That he had Their Majesties Commands to call us, as the greatest Demonstrations they could give of their Affections to us, who had suffered so many great Oppressions, almost to an utter Desolation of the Country, and could not be so well settled as by a Parliament, which, he said, was a Blessing that for so many Years we had been deprived of, whereby the English Interest had been in Danger of losing not only their Religion, but all that Property which with so great Expence of Blood and Treasure they had purchased; and therefore he doubted not but we would make Use of it, to pass such Laws as might tend to the firm Settlement of the Country upon a Protestant Interest; and that he was ordered by Their Majesties to assure us, that nothing should be wanting on Their Parts, that might contribute to our lasting or perfect Happiness;" as among other Things does in his Speech appear, or to that Effect.
This was thought all very good and very true; for my Lord Cook, in his 4th Institutes, mentions the Law of 10 Ed. II. de Parliament. tenendis singul. Annis in Hib'nia, et de Legibus et Consuetudin. ibidem emendand.; which was so far observed, that, from the 7 of H. VI. which was about 200 and odd Years before the last Parliament in 1665, there were in all above 50 Sessions of Parliament, and most of them were new Parliaments; but, from the Time of the last Parliament till now, they had, contrary to the said Law, as I conceive, and Interval of about 27 Years; in which Time, I fear, may too easily be made appear there had grown over the Kingdom several arbitrary Powers and Jurisdictions, Oppressions and Grievances; besides that we wanted many good Laws which had been made in this Kingdom, and were, as I thought, as much wanted, though not of Force there; and now we hoped we were met to redress all.
But, though the Matter of Money came towards the last in the Speech, it came among the first in the Business, and was readily embraced by the Commons. And when my Lord Lieutenant sent the Civil and Military Lists, together with their own Computation of what the Revenue might yield, Mr. Poultney proposed only the Sum of £. 70,000 as what would be wanting to support the Government. And, though it be almost incredible to any body who has not been there, to believe the great Wastes and Poverty which generally reigns throughout the Kingdom, save in some Parts of the North, and in and about Dublin, and a few other Towns which are better than the rest; yet the Commons were resolved to bear any Thing they could, rather than be farther burthensome to this Kingdom; and therefore voted a Sum not exceeding £. 70,000, and spent some Time about finding the Ways and Means how to do it with the greatest Ease to the Country. But thereafter were brought to us (by Mr. Poultney as I think) Two Bills, which had been prepared by the Council Board; the one, for the said additional Excise, which was pretty well liked for its Substance; and the other, as was said, for a Charge of 15 Pence per Acre on all Corn in (fn. 4) the Kingdom; which was thought very unequal in itself, there being very great Differences of Corn, and of the several Sorts, and the Graziers and Traders greatly escaping the Tax, and so many People starving for Want of Bread. It was thought strange by some, why these Bills should have been kept from us so long, to let us spend so much Time as aforesaid. After they were tendered, it was greatly disliked, that the Privy Council should prepare Money Bills before the Heads of them were first found and proposed by the Commons. And here I would undeceive any of your Lordships, who have been told, "that we intended, by that or any other Proceeding, to avoid Poynings' Law, being the 10 of H. VII. and thereby make ourselves independent, as they call it, on this Kingdom;" for what we did was, to assert the Commons having the sole Right of first finding or proposing the Heads of the Bills for raising of Money; and that, when the Commons had proposed them to the Council Board, the Council Board should draw them into Bills, and transmit them into England, to be transmitted back, according to the Method of Poynings' Law, which Vote was made on the 27th of October; and Seven Days after that, we were prorogued; and the Cause assigned by his Excellency's last Speech, of the 3d of November, for his Displeasure against us, as printed, is, "That he is troubled, that we, who had so many Obligations to be loyal and dutifully affected to Their Majesties, should so far mistake ourselves, as to intrench upon Their Majesties Prerogative, and Rights of the Crown of Engl'd, as we had done by our said Vote the 27th of October, and of subsequent Vote of rejecting a Bill, intituled, "An Act for granting to Their Majesties certain — for One Year," which was the Corn Bill, because it had not its Rise first from the Commons; and therefore he requires his Protest against those Votes to be entered in the Lords Book;" or to that Effect. And so prorogued we were, to the 6th of April.
It was thought by many Members there present, that his Excellency had said, "we had behaved ourselves undutifully and ungratefully, in invading Their Majesties Prerogative," and to † Effect. And if they were in a Mistake, I confess I was in the same; but I find little Difference in my Apprehensions between those Words, and the Meaning of the said Expressions in the Printed Speech. However, this was very unkindly taken, and thought strange, that this should be the Cause of our parting in that Manner; considering, first, for that the Reasons appeared, as was generally thought, for the Right of the Vote to be with us; in that nobody, I think, can reasonably deny but that before Poynings' Act it was entirely in the Commons; and it was not conceived by many, that ever Poynings' Act was intended to divest the Commons of that original Right; but that it was designed chiefly to prevent the Danger of an Irish Interest being too prevalent with a Chief Governor there, to the Prejudice of the English. And the same Reason which was before the Act, for the Commons to begin Money Bills still remains, "that they are presumed to know better than the Council, what Money the Country is able to bear, and how it may be best raised with Ease to the Subject." But that was not so much insisted on in the Case, for that we proposed only to pursue Poynings' Act as aforesaid. And having also the Act of 3d and 4th Ph. and Mary explanatory thereof, and finding the Reasons as to most of us seemed with us, we inspected the Journals of the House; and though perhaps sometime, upon an Emergency and for Expedition, this Right might be overlooked for a Time; yet hereupon it seemed, after the Debate, to be the general Opinion of the House, that the Right was so. But it was much pressed, "that, for Supply of the present Necessity of the Government, we should pass those Two Bills with a Salvo to our Right;" which was not at first well liked by some; namely, Mr. Hamilton of Tallimore, myself, and others, who thought it no good Expedient, to yield the Right, and have only a Salvo for it; the rather, for that we were ready to have come if we had been called sooner, and were now desirous to stay till we might raise the Money in our own Way; and so we might have some of our other Laws go Hand in Hand with the Money Bills. Whereas, the other Way, the Monies would be given, and the Laws might be left behind. However, an Expedient, and the present giving some Money, was so earnestly pressed, that the House, for aught appeared, became all unanimous in what was done, that is, in passing the Excise Bill, which was to raise the ready Money, with a Declaration, "That it was only for this Time, and should be never drawn again into Precedent;" and by asserting the Right by the said Vote; and by rejecting the Corn Bill, for the said Reason of not having its First Rise from the Commons; which was all done, and was by many reckoned a great Compliance, and not doubted but would be pleasing to his Excellency, for that this last Expedient was particularly proposed and prosecuted, as I was credibly told (fn. 5) by Mr. Broderick, by some of the Privy Council, as Colonel Coote, who had frequent Access to his Excellency, and seemed to understand his Mind; and I think it appears, by the Votes, that they passed it nemine contradicente on this Matter.
It was yet the stranger to many of us, because Sir Cyrill Wych, on Wednesday the Second of November, reported from his Excellency to the House, "That he had heard a good Character of Doctor Walkington, the Chaplain of the House; but, being recommended by the House to his Excellency, he would on that account take a more particular Care of him." And so, on other Occasions, his Excellency was pleased to return very good Answers to the Addresses of the House. And further, the same Day, Wednesday the 2d of November, he reported from his Excellency, "That he had appointed Friday next, for the Committee to attend him in Council, with the Heads of the new Laws we had prepared;" which made many of us think that his Excellency had not then resolved to prorogue us on Thursday, which was the only intervenient Day. However, it was done on Thursday the 3d, and was reckoned a great Loss to us, for that the Heads of the Laws we had prepared to tender him were of very great Consequence to the Nation; (videlicet,) the Heads of Habeas Corpus Act, of the Act for restraining the Jurisdiction of the Council Board, of the Act against buying and selling of Offices, of the Act against Frauds and Perjuries, with several other good Laws, of Force here, but not there. But, being prorogued the Day before, we had not the Opportunity so much as to tender them. It was only told us, on the Prorogation, by my Lord Chancellor, "That, his Excellency being informed of what Heads we intended to tender him, he would take them into Consideration; and, against the next Meeting of Parliament, such of them as should be found requisite should be in Readiness to be brought into Parliament." And I am now credibly informed, that some of them are prepared; but the Habeas Corpus Bill, which I value more than all the rest, I am told, is to be left behind; and so is not thought requisite, as I believe.
It was yet the stranger, for that in those Seven Days we had been very busy, by a Poll Bill, to raise the rest of the Money, and intended to do it sooner that Way than the Corn Bill would have done, which would not be till next Harvest; and also for that we were then coming upon the more close Pursuit of our Grievances and the Embezzlements of the Revenue, in which we thought we were at our Duty.
And, after all this Heat about (as was said) our intrenching on the Prerogative, it was considered, that it is of great Use to the Subject, that the Commons should have that Right; and if they are willing to give the Money, it seemed to many but reasonable to let them find the easiest Ways of raising it: But, on the other Side, such a Prerogative as that the Council Board may first find the Ways of raising Money, I could not see of what Use it could be, unless it were to occasion more Heats; for the Commons, without Doubt, have a Negative Vote, and can throw it out; besides, that I could not see how this Claim comes by the Name of a Prerogative, which I take to be an ancient inherent Right of the Crown; but whatever can be said of this must be drawn from Poynings' Act, and the 3d and 4th of Ph. and Mar. or something since Poynings' Law.
Now, for what happened since the Prorogation, many of the Members thought it very necessary to have Agents to attend Their Majesties here, on the Behalf of the Protestants, to render them and their Proceedings right in Their Majesties Opinions; as also to solicit such Matters as might happen relating to them; which Way of sending Agents hither had been heretofore used, but was done, as some affirmed, by Consent of the Government there: Wherefore, to pursue the former Method, a Petition was presented to his Excellency, by Sir Robert King, Sir Arthur Rowdon, Sir Arthur Longford, and Mr. Annesley, and signed by them, on the Behalf of themselves and others, which was no more in Substance than to pray Leave to appoint Agents to attend Their Majesties; To which his Excellency, as they declared, delivered this Answer, "That they could not have a better Agent than the King Himself, who had been Agent for the Protestants for these Twenty Years; but, if they would have Leave for any to go over to beg the King's Pardon for their riotous and seditious Meetings, they might have it;" or to that Effect. This sounded very hard in the Ears, both of the Gentlemen to whom it was said, and others who believed them to be Men of great Value and Integrity: But this was not the End; for there was, as I believe may be proved, a Direction to prosecute them upon an Information in the King's Bench, which they were resolved to defend; but, it seems, it was better considered, and they were let alone.
This of having Agents here was thought the more necessary, for that the Papists, as many affirmed, have Agents to solicit their Affairs here, and make Collections for them in Ireland; and, if the Protestants had Agents here, it is not like that such Bills would have been sent them without Amendments, as some were now transmitted to the Parliament, with very fair Titles, but rejected for the Bodies of them; as, "A Bill to confirm the Act of Settlement," which is much wished for; but there were such Things therein, that, instead of confirming it, would have set Things far looser than they were, as many seemed to think; for which it was rejected. And the same Fate found, "A Bill for reversing the Proceedings of Attainders passed when the late King was there;" which had been very welcome to many timorous People there; yet was rejected, by reason of a Clause in the Body thereof. It fared no better with, "A Bill for punishing Mutineers and Deserters;" which probably had passed, if it had been as the Act for that Purpose here is; but it was to continue for Three Years, and from thence to the next Session of Parliament; which was so uncertain, and the Clauses relating to the regulating Quarters left out, that chiefly, as appeared to me, for these Reasons, it was rejected; as also for that it would have had some Days Retrospect before it could be passed; and Heads of another were ordered to be brought, to supply it. And another was, "A Bill to erect and establish a Militia;" which the House, as appeared to me, were very desirous to do, for the Public Safety. But this, as drawn, would have brought a Burthen on the Subject, as was offered, more than we thought them well able to bear; besides the great Penalties and arbitrary Ways of taxing and raising the Money, and an Obligation thereby to find more Men to serve in some Counties than there were Protestants in such Counties, as some of the Members said; for which, among other Faults, and for that being a Charge on the Subject, and not having the Heads first proposed by the House of Commons, that Bill was also rejected, and the Heads of another ordered to be prepared.
Mr. Osborne and Mr. Brodericke, Their Majesties Two Serjeants at Law, were, presently after the Prorogation, superseded or discharged; and since that have been turned out even of the Commission of the Peace, as I have been credibly informed.
The said Sir Arthur Rawdon was superseded or discharged of being Governor of the County of Downe; and that Command or Government was offered first to the Earl of Donnegall, and then to the Earl of Mountalexand'r, as I have been credibly informed, who both refused it; and I do not hear that to this Day any-body has accepted thereof.
The Consequences of the said Matters, as I have been credibly told, have happened very evil to the Public; for the Planters are discouraged, and Persons who came thither with their Stocks and Money, from Scotland and elsewhere, are removed again, and so are others of the ancient Inhabitants; and so much of the Country is like still to lie longer waste and depopulated, while these Dissatisfactions continue.
I fear I have been too tedious; which I hope will be excused by your Lordships, by the Greatness and Variety of the Subject. And for what uncorrect Expressions may have escaped me, as I believe there are many, I hope the Straitness of Time, scarce being able to review or peruse it, will procure my Pardon from your Lordships. But I have endeavoured, as near as I can, pursuant to your Lordships Directions, to set forth the Truth, and nothing else, to the best of my Knowledge, Remembrance, or Belief; and that, I hope, will always justify itself.
Sir F. Brewster's further Examination;
Sir Francis Brewster delivered in a further Paper, being sworn to the Truth of it as before; which was read, as followeth; (videlicet,)
In Obedience to your Lordships Commands, to give my Reasons why I did not mention that which was given to me for Reasons why those Persons that were aggrieved by the Government in Ireland did not complain to the Lords Justices, was this, That they observed, and did believe, nothing was done by the Commissioners of the Revenue, but what was agreeable to their Lordships Pleasure.
"In Obedience to your Lordships further Commands, to explain who I mean by saying it was thought Mr. Robinson had disposed of the Stores to the Value of £. 80,000 for the Use of somebody; I mean, my Lord Conynsby and himself.
"Your Lordships are further pleased to command me to name who told me, "That it was to no Purpose to complain to the Government of any Grievance, and that they should be treated like Enemies if they did;" was, Mr. Joy, in the Case of his Wool; Mr. Henry Davies, in that of the Salt Pans set to Judge Lyndon; and by Mr. Corker, in that of the Embezzlement of the forfeited Goods and Stores; he further adding, "That he had a small Employment, which he believed he should have lost if he had appeared in any such Thing."
"Mr. Edward Haynes, a Sheriff's Peer, and One of the Common Council of the City of Dublin, told me, "That, though he and several others had a Desire to complain of the Grievance in denying the City their Right of electing their Lord Mayor, they durst not do it; for that the Lords Justices looked upon any that complained as Enemies; and that he was indicted, by the Lord Mayor's Order, at their own Quarter Sessions, for appearing in the Right of the City, though the Pretence was for Words he spoke; and the Lord Mayor being not able to prevail with the Grand Jury to find the Bill, he was indicted at the King's Bench; and that he (fn. 6) have heard they would ruin him." There was Mr. Flood and several others that made Complaints of the same Nature.
F. Annesley's Information;
Francis Annesley was called in; and his Information was read, as followeth; he being sworn to the Truth of it, as before.
Mr. Annesley says, "That he, being but a private Person, cannot give a perfect Account of the present Condition and State of Ireland.
"As to the quartering the Army there since the War ended, he can only speak to that Part which was quartered in the County of Kildare, being the Place of his Residence when in that Kingdom. About the Beginning of April last, he went for Ireland, and repaired to the Place of his Abode, in the Barony of Ophaley and County of Kildare; that, immediately upon his coming Home, his Tenants came to him; with great Outcries, saying, "They were utterly undone, by having Six of Colonel Eclyn's Dragoons quartered on them for several Weeks; some of them being forced to pay the Inn-keepers Five Shillings per Week to find each Man Diet, besides his Horsemeat; whereas their Subsistence-money, if paid, was but Seven Groats." These Complaints induced him to examine who was authorized by the Lords Justices to set out Quarters for the said Colonel Eclyn's Regiment in the said County; and, upon Inquiry, he found it was Mr. Samuel Synge, who was Dean of Kildare, Justice of Peace, Commissioner of Array, and Deputy Lieutenant of the County; that he, finding himself wronged in the unequal Distribution of the said Quarters, being charged with Six Dragoons for One Plough-land, and there being Four and Twenty Plough-lands in the Barony, and but One Troop quartered therein, sent first to the said Dean, to see whether he, being made sensible of the said Wrong, would redress it; but, meeting with no Relief from him, he afterwards complained to the Lords Justices, by Petition at large, setting forth the whole Wrong done him by the said Dean; but could receive no other Satisfaction, than "that they would write to the Dean about it;" which was the Message delivered him by the Secretary; which he looked on as a plain Put-off, having in his Petition acquainted them, "That he had first applied himself to the said Dean for Redress, but could have none." So the Dragoons continued for some Time after, being a heavy Burthen on the poor Tenants; until at length, the whole County being oppressed by quartering the said Regiment without receiving any Money to enable them to do it, they made a general Complaint to the Government, backed with a considerable Number of Affidavits, proving the intolerable Abuses committed by the said Dragoons, in extorting Money from the Country People, forcing them in some Places to pay Eight Shillings a Week and a Barrel of Oats for One Man.
"All which being plainly proved before the Government, the Lords Justices did promise those that appeared for the Country, "that the Officers should refund what their Men had so unjustly taken from the Country People:" But little or no Restitution hath been made.
"That Dean Synge did, by virtue of his own Warrant, send a Serjeant and Six Men, to distrain for 15 s. a Week from the Lands of Ballysex, in the County of Kildare, being a Farm which Mr. Annesley holds from the Countess of Anglesey, under Colour for Subsistence for Soldiers; and the said Serjeant and Men exacted the same from the Tenants, by virtue of the said Authority, for several Weeks; of which Oppression Mr. Annesley complained to the then-going Judges of Assize, the Dean being present; at which Time the Judges told him, "It was no less than High Treason, to levy Money on the Subject without a lawful Authority." His Answer was, "That he had the Government's Orders for it." Which was all the Satisfaction could be had in that Particular.
Colonel Fitzgerald was called in; and his Information was read, as followeth, he being sworn to the Truth of it, as before:
The Substance of what Mr. Fitzgerald answered to the several Questions put to him by the House of Lords, the First of March Instant, 1692/3, reduced into Writing by their Lordships Commands, as exactly as the Shortness of the Time and his bad Memory would allow.
As I was going in the Streets of Dublin one Morning, I saw a Party of Horse driving several Men, Women, and Children, in the Streets; which made me ask an Officer that was with the Horse, "What was the Meaning of those Persons being in that Condition?" To which he answered, "That there had been several of Colonel Foulkes' Soldiers murdered near Dublin; and that he was ordered to bring to Town the Inhabitants of that Place where the Murder was committed, that a Discovery might be made of the Murder." Soon after, I was summoned among the rest to the Privy Council, to attend at their Meeting; where, after the Council met, we were made acquainted of the Cause of our meeting, which was, to make Inquiry after this barbarous Murder. Whereupon, the Council having debated some Time, One came into the Chamber where we sat, and told me, "That there was a Woman without, desired to speak with me." Upon which, I was ordered by their Lordships to go out and speak with her; which I did, and returned soon, telling the Lords of the Board, "That this Woman told me, That she feared her Husband, or her Nephew that was a young Lad, might have had a Hand in this Murder; but, if I would intercede to spare their Lives, she believed she could put us in a Way of making out the whole Matter." Whereupon I returned with this Discourse, and desired that the Bishop of Meath might go with me to examine this Woman further; which was ordered accordingly, and One of the Clerks of the Board was appointed to attend his Lordship and me; and, upon making Inquiry into this Matter, we found that one Gafney (as near as I can remember his Name), One of the Prisoners, was likely to be a great Evidence herein. After some Time spent in this Examination, we returned to the Lords of the Council, and gave them such a Relation as we thought proper, being the Brief of what she said to us. Whereupon Gasney was called into the Council Chamber; and several Questions being put to him, he gave such Answers as made it very visible to the Board that he himself, one Sweetman, and several others of the Prisoners, had been guilty of this Murder: On which, several others were called in, and also examined; by all which it was apparent, that there were many of the Prisoners accessary to it. During the Examination of these Persons, Gasny was ordered to withdraw; and, after being some Time without, we learnt that some Person had been to speak with him, which we were told was a Priest. Whereupon the Officer of the Guard was chidden, for letting any one speak to him; and soon after, he the same Gasny was called in, to give Testimony against the other Prisoners, who positively denied to the Board all that he had said before, though many of the Council had taken Notes of his Examination. Whereupon the Lords Justices, who acted in Chief as well in a Military as Civil Capacity, speaking together, Gasny was told, "He was a Rogue, and a Villain, and should be hanged." Upon which, a Provost was ordered to be sent for, and he several Times threatened; and when the Provost came into the Room, the Lords Justices, after whispering together, told the said Provost, "That he must hang that Man," pointing at the said Gasney; who thereupon was led out of the Room, and, as we were told after the Council arose, the Man was executed.
"Being asked what I knew of the forfeited Estates in Ireland; I answered, "That, His Majesty having done me the Honour to appoint me One of the Commissioners of forfeited Estates, I had been called upon by a Committee of the House of Commons, to whom I had given an Account of what I had to say in that Particular; which Account was given by Sir Robert Henley, Chairman of the Committee, where 'twas examined; a Copy of which I delivered to your Lordships.
"Colonel Fitzgerald, being required by the Lords to give an Account concerning one Sweetman, said to be a Party concerned with one Gasney in the Murder of some of Colonel Foulkes' Soldiers, saith,
"That there came a Woman to him, who said, "She was a near Relation of Sweetman's, and was afraid he would be hanged; and that she was informed, he the said Colonel had Power to get his Pardon," or Words to that Effect; and, on Condition he would so do, he should have all his Estate Real and Personal, which were near £. 1200 Personal, and near £. 200 per Annum Real, Estate. Upon which, he the said Colonel Fitzgerald answered, "That the Action was so foul, as he had not Interest, so he neither had Will to do it."
"That soon after this (to the best of his Remembrance) he the said Colonel went out of Town; and some Time after his Return was told, "That Sweetman was alive, and that Mr. Culliford was in Possession of his Lands."
"That Sweetman was alive very lately, and he has not heard of his Death since.
"That Four or Five Persons more (besides Gafney) were hanged some Days after, upon account of that Murder; but knows not what Manner of Trial they had.
He hath been told, "That all but Gafney were tried by a Court Martial."
"That all this did pass before the Surrender of Limerick; being (to the best of his Remembrance) in that Spring before the Army marched towards Munster.
Jn° Poultney was called in; and his Information was read, as followeth; he being sworn to the Truth thereof, as before:
"The Account I can give your Lordships of the State of Affairs in Ireland will come within the Space of these Six Months last past, that is, since my Lord Lieutenant first entered upon the Administration of that Government, and will fall under these Four Heads following; (videlicet,) the Proceedings of the House of Commons during the late Session of the present Parliament there; the Prorogation, and what followed thereupon; the Army; the Forfeitures of the Estates Real, and lastly of the Personal Estates.
"As to the Proceedings in that Session of Parliament; about Three or Four Days after the same began, it was moved by a Member of the House of Commons there, "That it might be declared the undoubted Right and Privilege of that House, that every Member thereof should have his Letters frank during the Time of Privilege, that is, during the Session and Forty Days both before and after the Finishing thereof." In Answer thereunto, the House was told, "That the letting the Members of Parliament have their Letters frank was a Concession of the Crown, and so looked upon by the Parliament of England;" and at the same Time 'twas said, by Direction of the Lord Lieutenant, "That his Excellency had issued out a Warrant to the Postmaster General there, to let the several Members of Parliament have their Letters frank, in such Manner as had been heretofore used." So the Debate fell; and it was believed there would be no more said of that Matter. But, within Two or Three Days after, a Motion was made for the resuming of that Debate; and the Member who made the Motion acquainting the House, "that the Warrant which his Excellency had issued out to the Postmaster General for the franking their Letters did not relate to the First Day of the Session;" it was put to the Question, "Whether it was and is the undoubted Right and Privilege of the Members of that House, to have their Letters frank?" And resolved in the Affirmative; notwithstanding it was much insisted upon, by several of those Members who argued to the contrary, that the Words, "in such Manner as the Members of the Parliament of Engl'd do enjoy the same," might be added to the Question. When my Lord Lieutenant heard of this Resolve of the House of Commons, his Excellency thought it might reflect upon him, to let a Vote of the House of Commons take away so much of Their Majesties Revenue as would be affected by it, without taking Notice thereof; but yet, in regard of the great Desire his Excellency had to preserve a fair Understanding with the Parliament, there was Care taken to accommodate that Matter; which was done by the House's consenting to have that Resolve left out of the Printed Votes of that Day, whereby his Excellency could not be duly apprized of what had passed in relation to that Matter. Some Time after, a Motion was made for a Supply to be granted to Their Majesties, towards the Support of the Government there (his Excellency having demanded One in the Speech he made at the Opening of that Session); in order whereunto, by his Excellency's Direction, the Civil and Military Establishments, together with an Estimate of Their Majesties Revenue for the Year 1692 (as given in by the Commissioners for the Management thereof), was laid before the House; which Establishments and Estimate having been duly examined and considered by the House, and it appearing, upon a Balance of those Accompts, that the necessary Charge of the Government for that Year would amount to Sixty-five Thousand odd Hundred Pounds, or thereabouts, over and above what the Revenue could defray; it was resolved, "That a Sum, not exceeding £. 70,000 be granted to Their Majesties, towards the necessary Support of Their Government, for One Year," or to that Effect; in order to the raising of which Sum, Two Bills (the one, for an additional Duty of Excise upon Beer, Ale, and other Liquors; and the other, for a Duty upon Corn) were, by the Direction of his Excellency and the Privy Council of that Kingdom, brought into the House, by One of his Excellency's Secretaries; who, beginning with the Bill for the additional Excise, opened the same, and acquainted the House, "That the said Bill had, according to the usual Method, been prepared by his Excellency and the Privy Council; afterwards by them sent over into Engl'd, under the Great Seal of Ireland; and, having been considered of by the King in the Privy Council of England, and passed there, was remitted back to his Excellency under the Great Seal of Engl'd; that the said Bill might, by Computation, raise about £. 16,000 Part of the said Supply;" and so concluded with a Motion, "That the same might be carried up to the Table, and read." Then, a Question being put, for the carrying the said Excise Bill up to the Table; it passed in the Affirmative. And in the like Manner the Corn Bill was, upon another Question, ordered to be carried up to the Table; which was accordingly done. But (to the best of my Remembrance) before either of the said Bills was read, One of the Members of the House stood up, and said, "That, by the Rights and Privileges of that House, the preparing of Heads for Money Bills did belong only to the Commons of Ireland in Parliament assembled;" and so concluded for the Rejection of those Two Money Bills. In Answer to which, 'twas then said, "It could not be denied but that House had an undoubted Right to prepare Heads for Money Bills, as they might do for other Bills; but then it must be admitted, that there is the like Right in the Chief Governor and Council; there being no Difference, either by the 10th of H. VIIth, Ch. 4. commonly called Poynings' Law, or by the 3d and 4th of Ph. & M. Chap. 4th, between Money Bills and others: That, by Poynings' Law, all Bills to be passed in the Parliament there must have been transmitted by the Chief Governor and Council, under the Great Seal of Irel'd, to the King and Council in Engl'd, and be remitted back under the Great Seal of Engl'd, before any Parliament could be holden in Irel'd; so that, until the said Act of the 3d and 4th of Ph. and Mary, there could be no new Certificate or Transmission of any more Bills after the Parliament sat; to remedy which Inconveniency, the Act of Ph. & M. was chiefly made: That the said Act of Ph. & M. (fn. 7) do empower the Chief Governor and Council to certify Bills after the Parliament begun, but does not give or restore any Thing to the Commons; for, in the negative Part thereof, 'tis as general and comprehensive as Poynings' Law. And if the Case of Money Bills were out of the said Acts, the Commons in Parliament would have their Right not only to prepare Heads, but also to prepare the Bills themselves; for, if Money Bills are not within the said Acts, they are not to be certified or transmitted at all, the contrary whereof hath been constantly practised ever since Poynings' Law." Besides this, 'twas said, "That a continued Course of Precedents, from the Reign of H. VII. down to that of King Ch. the IId, does sufficiently declare and maintain a Right in the Chief Governor and Council to prepare Heads for Money Bills. By the Printed Statutes, it appears that, in the 15th of Hen. VII. the only Bill that passed in that Parliament was a Money Bill, which could not be transmitted before the Parliament sat; and therefore the Heads not prepared by the House. In the 3 and 4 of Ph. & M. a Subsidy was granted, which, as the Law then stood, must have been transmitted before the Session. Another Subsidy was granted the II of Eliz.; which being the First Act of that Parliament, the Heads of it could not be prepared in the House. By their Journals of Parliament (of which there can be none found more ancient than those of King James the First) it appears, that, in 1614, there is a Grant of Four Subsidies to the King; and by comparing the Transmiss, dated the 6th of March, 10th of King James the First, with the Journal, the Transmiss was before the Parliament began; so that the Heads of that Bill could not be prepared in the House. In the Reign of King Ch. the First, a Bill for Four Subsidies was remitted into Ireland, the 13th of May, Car. P'mi; and another Bill for Two Subsidies, the 13th of July following; and both passed, though the Heads of neither of them could be prepared in the House of Commons; for that Parliament in which they passed did not begin till the Fourteenth of July: That, in the Reign of King Charles the Second, there are several Precedents; particularly, an Act for Four entire Subsidies, and another for the City of Dublin to raise £. 2500, and several other Money Bills, passed the House, without any previous Preparation of Heads there: That the only seeming Pretence or Colour for this Claim to a sole Right of preparing Heads of Bills for Money is grounded upon a Vote, mentioned in the Journal, in Year 1662, to this Effect, "The Lords having, at a Free Conference with the Commons, differed from them in the Manner of raising the £. 30,000 for the Duke of Ormond; it was resolved, declared, and asserted, by the House, That the Proposals of Ways and Means for levying all Monies to be raised in that Kingdom, is the ancient and undoubted Right of that House only:" Which appears to have resulted from a Conference with the Lords, and seems to relate only to them; but has no Reference to the Power lodged by Law in the Chief Governor and Council, nor any Tendency to divest them of it; and if it had, would yet have been of no Force against the aforesaid Statutes, and so long Usages and Practice to the contrary: Nor can any Inconveniency accrue to the Subject by this Construction of the aforesaid Statute; since, the Commons having a Negative upon Money Bills as well as other Bills, the Subject can never be burthened with any Tax that they shall think unequal or unreasonable." And therefore 'twas then strongly urged by several of the Members of that House, "That the above mentioned Bill, for the additional Duty of Excise upon Beer, Ale, and other Liquors, should be read; the Chief Governor and Council having a Right to prepare Bills for raising of Money as aforesaid." To all which, the only Reply made by such of the Members as were of a contrary Opinion was, "That this Case was not within Poynings' Act; and for that very Reason, because there were so many Precedents already, there ought to be no more made." So, after some Debate, concluded that it might be put to the Question, "Whether it was and is the sole and undoubted Right of the Commons of Ireland, in Parliament assembled, to prepare Heads of Money Bills?" or to that Effect. Which Question being accordingly put, it passed in the Affirmative. And afterwards, in Pursuance of that Vote, the aforesaid Two Money Bills were rejected, for that the Heads thereof were not prepared in that House. Then the House resolved itself into a Committee of the whole House, to consider of Ways and Means for raising the said Supply; and at last agreed upon doing it by Way of a Poll: But, seeing that after such Heads should be agreed upon in the House, then presented to the Lord Lieutenant and Council, and a Bill framed upon them there, the same must travel into England, pass the King and Council here, and then return back into Ireland, there was little Reason to think the Government could hope for any Benefit from such a dilatory Method during that Session, to which his Excellency did, from the very First Opening thereof, think necessary to put an End as soon as the Parliament of England sat down (his Excellency not knowing but His Majesty might then require his Attendance here, and the Speaker of that House, and Sir Richard Reynell Assistant to the House of Lords, being Members of the House of Commons of England); which Time did then draw near. About a Fortnight (to the best of my Remembrance) before the End of the Session, his Excellency sent a Message in Writing to the House, to let them know, "That Their Majesties Affairs did require the putting an End to that Session within a Fortnight; whereof his Excellency thought fit to give them that timely Notice, to the End they might dispatch such Bills as were necessary for the Public Good, and now lying before them; the Dispatch whereof his Excellency did earnestly recommend to them." After this, the Bill for settling a Militia within that Kingdom having, by Direction of his Excellency and Council, been brought into the House, and there lain some Time upon the Table, was called for; and, being read, was, upon the Question, rejected, because a Money Bill; and that was the Reason given for the said Rejection in the Vote. Some Time after, an engrossed Bill from the Lords, for the punishing of Mutineers and Deserters, having lain upon the Table of the House of Commons about a Week before, was called for; and, having been read a Second Time (as I take it), was committed to a Select Committee; at last, being reported to the House, it was there thrown out, for that the Day from which the said Bill should take Effect being mentioned in the Bill, and Time being elapsed by Two Days before the same was reported from the said Committee, it was, upon the Question, rejected, because, if then passed, it would have a Retrospect of Two Days. From the Time that my Lord Lieutenant had heard of the above-mentioned Vote about the sole and undoubted Right of preparing Heads for Money Bills, his Excellency, looking upon the same as invasive of the Right of the Crown of England, and not only contrary to Poynings' Act, but the constant and uninterrupted Course of Precedents ever since the making of the said Act, did resolve, in full Parliament, to protest against the said Vote: But, in regard that his Excellency thought he could not so regularly take Notice thereof till the same was printed, as soon as he was informed it was in the Press, his Excellency sent for One of them; which being brought to him, and his Excellency finding the said Vote there, next Morning his Excellency came, after the usual Manner, to the House of Lords; and being there, seated in the Throne, in his Robes, sent the Usher of the Black Rod to the House of Commons, to require them to attend him in the House of Lords immediately. Accordingly the House of Commons, with their Speaker, being come to the Bar of the House of Lords, his Excellency made a Speech to both Houses; wherein, addressing himself to the House of Commons, amongst other Things, told them, "He was sorry to find that Session had not produced so good Effects as were answerable to the End for which the Parliament was called, and which His Majesty might reasonably have expected from it; taking Notice to them of the Vote they had passed, about their sole Right of preparing Heads for Money Bills, against which he did there protest in full Parliament;" or Words to that Effect. Then his Excellency's Protestation against the said Vote was read publicly, and by his Excellency commanded to be entered into the Journal of the House of Lords. Afterwards the Lord Chancellor, as Speaker of the House of Lords, by his Excellency's Command, prorogued the Parliament to Thursday the Sixth Day of April next. Soon after the said Prorogation, his Excellency was informed, "That several of the Members of the House of Commons, who in the House had been the principal Assertors of that Vote, had frequent Meetings at a Tavern in Dublin; and that the Design of such their Meetings was, to send Agents into England, to represent the Proceedings in the late Session of Parliament." At last, a Petition was presented to his Excellency, by Sir Arthur Rawdon, and Three Persons more whose Names were subscribed thereunto; the Title of which Petition was, to the best of my Remembrance, as follows; "The humble Petition of Sir Arthur Rawdon, &c. and other the Representatives in Parliament, in Behalf of themselves and other the Protestants of Ireland;" the Purport whereof was, "That his Excellency would give them Leave to send Agents into England, to solicit the Protestant Affairs of that Kingdom." I was not present when the said Petition was delivered; so cannot take upon me to say what Answer his Excellency made to it. But, the Privy Council being appointed to meet within an Hour after, his Excellency came to Council, where, by virtue of my Place as Clerk of the Council, I was then attending. His Excellency immediately laid the said Petition before the Board; which being read, his Excellency acquainted the Board with the Answer he had made thereunto, "That he knew no better Agent for the Protestant Interest than the King himself, who, to his Knowledge, had been so for these Twenty Years past; but, if they desired to go into England, to ask His Majesty's Pardon for their riotous Meetings, they might do it, and he hoped they would succeed in it;" or to that Effect: And the Earl of Droghedagh and Sir Richard Cox, Two of that Board then present, happening to be with his Excellency when the said Petition was delivered, his Excellency appealed to their Memories, whether that was not the Substance of the Answer he made to the said Petition; which they affirming to be as his Excellency had said, the same was immediately, by Order of his Excellency and the Board, entered in the Council Book. Not long after, his Excellency and the Council being of Opinion that such an unwarrantable Proceeding of the Petitioners ought to be highly resented, his Excellency resolved to remove Sir Arthur Rawdon, One of the said Petitioners, from the Government of the County of Downe, and to give it to Sir Robert Colvil, who was Governor of the County of Antrim; intending, by that Exchange, to let the Earl of Donnegal into the Government of Antrim, where the said Earl's Estate lay, and which was what his Ancestors had formerly enjoyed. But Sir Robert Colvil declined the Acceptance of the Government of the County of Downe; saying, "That he had been at great Charge and Trouble in settling the Militia of the County of Antrim, whereas that of the County of Downe was unsettled; and therefore he was unwilling to engage in any new Charge or Trouble on that Account." His Excellency, being made acquainted therewith, and finding Sir Robert Colvil had no Mind to the Exchange, resolved to let him hold his Government of the County of Antrim. Then his Excellency proposed the Government of Downe to the Lord Mount-Alexander; who, urging the necessitous Condition of his Affairs, desired "he might, without incurring his Excellency's Displeasure, or any ill Opinion of him, have Leave to decline the Acceptance of an Employment, which must necessarily subject him to a greater Expence than the Smallness of his Fortune could well bear:" Which Excuse his Excellency admitted of. And so that Government of the County of Downe was, when I left Dublin, undisposed of.
"Some Time after the said Prorogation, my Lord Lieutenant was informed, "That Mr. Broderick, then Their Majesties Second Serjeant at Law, had given out, That he had carried his Commission in his Pocket to the Castle, with a Design of delivering the same up to his Excellency; but that he still had it;" insinuating thereby, as though his Excellency had refused to accept of the Surrender thereof. And his Excellency was likewise about the same Time informed, by Mr. Solicitor General of Ireland, "That Mr. Osborne, then Their Majesties Prime Serjeant at Law, desired him to acquaint his Excellency, That he the said Mr. Osborne had brought his Commission in his Pocket to the Council Chamber, when his Excellency was to be there, with an Intention to give it up." Yet was his Excellency unwilling to take any Notice thereof; till at last, hearing the same a Second or Third Time, his Excellency looked upon this Proceeding of these Two Gentlemen as little less than a Defiance to, or Insulting over, the Government; and that Their Majesties Grant, nay, even the Government itself, would become very precarious, should he not do something upon it: And therefore his Excellency was pleased to command me to wait upon Mr. Osborne and Mr. Broderick, to let them know what he had heard; and, if it were so as was reported, then to accept of the Surrender of their respective Grants. Accordingly I waited first on Mr. Osborne; and told him what his Excellency had commanded me to say to him. He answered, "That he was very ready and willing to give up his Commission;" and, going out of the Room where we were, immediately returned again, with a Parchment in each Hand; "Sir," said he to me, "here is my Commission from this King, to be Prime Serjeant during His Majesty's Pleasure; and here is a Commission I had from King Charles the Second, for the same Office, during good Behaviour:" So, offering to put them both into my Hands, said, "They are both at my Lord Lieutenant's Service." I told him, "My Direction from his Excellency (as I understood) was only for that Commission which he had from Their present Majesties; that I would not exceed my Orders;" and so refused to receive the other Commission from him; taking that only which he had from the present Government. From thence I went directly to Mr. Broderick, to whom I spake to the same Effect as just before I had done to Mr. Osborne. He answered me, "That he would wait upon my Lord Lieutenant, and deliver up to his Excellency his Commission of Second Serjeant." I told him, "He might, if he pleased; but that, if he was willing to part with it to me (or Words to that Effect), I had Directions to receive it from him, and carry it to his Excellency." Whereupon he very readily looked it out from amongst some other Writings which lay upon his Table, and gave it to me; desiring me, "to present his humble Service to his Excellency." These Two Grants I presently delivered to his Excellency; and some Time after, Mr. Serjeant Donilan, a Member of the House of Commons of Ireland, who voted in the House the same Way that Mr. Osborne had done, was made Prime Serjeant; and Mr. Packenham, One of Their Majesties Counsel at Law, who stood next in Course, and was no Member of the House, had a Grant of the Office of Second Serjeant.
This, my Lords, is, to the best of my Memory, the most exact Account I can give of the Proceedings of the House of Commons during the late Session of the present Parliament of Ireland, of the Prorogation, and what followed thereupon: Only I must observe to your Lordships, that all the Judges of Ireland have, in Pursuance of an Order of Reference from his Excellency and the Council, upon due Consideration had of the aforesaid Statutes, Journals, Transmisses, and other Proceedings of Parliament, delivered an unanimous Opinion: "First, That it is not the sole Right of the Commons of Ireland, in Parliament assembled, to prepare Heads of Bills for raising of Money: And, Secondly, That the Chief Governor and Council may prepare Bills for raising of Money, and certify and transmit the same to Their Majesties and Council of England, to be returned under the Great Seal of England, and afterwards sent to the Commons, although the Heads of such Bills had not their First Rise in the House of Commons."
"As to what may relate to the Army; your Lordships may expect a better Account thereof from his Excellency's other Secretary, who is likewise Secretary at War: Yet I shall take Leave to acquaint your Lordships with what has come to my Knowledge concerning it.
"From the Time of his Excellency's First Arrival in that Kingdom, for some Months together, I do not remember that I heard of any Complaint of the Army, which then lay quartered in several Parts of the Kingdom, for the greater Ease of the Country. But when, upon Receipt of Letters from England, his Excellency was under an Apprehension as though the French King intended to make a Descent upon Ireland; for Prevention thereof, his Excellency and the Council, after the most effectual Manner they could, caused all the Papists throughout the Kingdom to be disarmed, the principal Heads of them to be secured, ordered all the Militia of the several Counties to be in a Readiness; and his Excellency drew down the Standing Forces into the Province of Munster, for the Security of that Part of the Kingdom, upon which such Attempt would in all Probability be first made. While so considerable a Body of Men was quartered within so small a Compass, and that too in a Country half wasted by the late Rebellion there, 'tis no Wonder if they lay so heavy on that Part of the Kingdom as to occasion some Complaints of the Hardships thereof. Then, my Lords, I had Two or Three several Letters from some of the Gentlemen of those Parts, complaining of some of the Soldiers; which as soon as received, I shewed to his Excellency; who thereupon expressed himself highly dissatisfied, and immediately sent strict Orders to Colonel Winn, then Commander in Chief there, to examine carefully into those or any other Abuses of the Army; requiring him, "Whatever Officer he found in Fault, forthwith to cashier; and punish the common Soldier who should be found guilty of any Disorder with the utmost Severity that might be." These Orders produced so good Effect, that I had the Thanks of those Gentlemen (who had before complained), for having procured the same. After which, I do not remember that I heard of any more Complaints of the Army. And, just before I left Dubiin, his Excellency having sent Orders for the enlarging of their Quarters, 'tis to be hoped the Army will not be uneasy to the Country. It were to be wished, (my Lords,) that no Private House should be obliged to quarter any Soldier; but, there not being a sufficient Number of Public Houses in several Parts for that Purpose, since it is necessary to have a Standing Army within that Kingdom (as the Case shall happen), it cannot be expected that Private Houses should always be exempted from quartering.
"As to the forfeited Real Estates; 'tis true, my Lords, I have heard that when but Two of the Four Provinces of that Kingdom, (videlicet,) Leinster and Ulster, were in Their Majesties Possession, the said Forfeitures might then amount to about £. 30,000 per Annum. And I have heard, and do believe, that now the other Two Provinces, (videlicet,) Munster and Connaught, are reduced to Their Majesties Obedience, the whole Real Forfeitures do not exceed £. 10,000 per Annum, or thereabouts; which prima Facie seems to be little less than a Riddle: But when your Lordships shall consider that Their Majesties came to the Possession of those Two last mentioned Provinces by the Articles of Limerick and Gallway, whereby not only such Rebels as had any Estates in any of those Two Provinces, but even such others as, being then within the Rebels Quarters, had Estates lying within either of the first Two mentioned Provinces of Leinster and Ulster, were restored to the Possession of their Estates, as well Real as Personal, which must consequently lessen the Number and Value of such forfeited Estates as Their Majesties were in Possession of before those Articles were made; this Matter will no longer appear so great a Riddle.
Lastly, my Lords, as to the Forfeitures Personal, that is, of the Goods and Chattels, the Commission of Enquiry into such Forfeitures having been executed a long Time before his Excellency arrived in that Kingdom; I have only to acquaint your Lordships, that his Excellency, being sensible of the great Embezzlements of such Forfeitures, and of the Mal-execution of that Commission, did, before he last left England, procure a Warrant from Their Majesties, for the issuing forth a new Commission, to inquire into the forfeited Personal Estates; pursuant to which Warrant, a Commission was issued forth: But the Number of the Commissioners, which was only Three, being thought too small, in regard that Two of the said Commissioners should be rolling about in the Country to pick up Informations, while a Quorum of Three is left in Dublin, and the Powers in that Commission contained be not sufficient to answer the End; his Excellency has therefore now lately procured another Warrant for a new Commission of Inquiry, wherein there are Five Commissioners appointed, and larger Powers given than were before; which Commission will speedily be issued forth, and, if duly executed, may in all Probability make a considerable Discovery of the great Embezzlements that have been of such Forfeitures.
"This, my Lords, is the most faithful and exact Account I can give of the present State of Ireland, in relation to the several foregoing Heads; and is, to the best of my Memory, the same in Substance with what I gave in to your Lordships when I had the Honour to be heard at the Bar of this most Honourable House upon the same Subject.
Vote, that within these Four Years there have been great Abuses and Mismanagement, and many arbitrary and illegal Proceedings, in Ireland.
After having received this Day several Informations in Writing, upon Oath, at the Bar, pursuant to the Order Yesterday, concerning the present Condition and State of the Kingdom of Ireland;
The House agreed, and ordered, to be entered as followeth; (videlicet,)
That, upon Informations taken in this House upon Oath, it doth appear, that within these Four Years last past, as well since the Peace as before, there have been exorbitant Abuses, great Mismanagement, and many arbitrary and illegal Proceedings, in the Public Affairs of Ireland."
It is ORDERED, by the Lords Spiritual and Temporal in Parliament assembled, That on Saturday next, at Eleven of the Clock, this House shall take the present Condition and State of Ireland into further Consideration, upon the Informations received this Day; and that all the Lords be summoned then to attend.
Lord committed, for Abuse against Col. Fitzgerald.
The House being informed, "That Henry Lord hath given ill Language to Colonel Fitzgerald, who was attending this House:"
It is ORDERED, by the Lords Spiritual and Temporal in Parliament assembled, That the said Henry Lord shall be, and he is hereby, committed to the Prison of The Gatehouse, Westm'r, until further Order; and this shall be a sufficient Warrant on that Behalf.
To the Keeper of the Prison of The Gatehouse, Westm'r, his Deputy and Deputies, and every of them.
Englefyld versus Sir C. Englefyld.
It is ORDERED, by the Lords Spiritual and Temporal in Parliament assembled, That the Case of Sir Charles Englefyld and Anthony Englefyld Esquire shall be considered by the Lords Committees for Privileges on Saturday next, at Four of the Clock in the Afternoon; and all the Lords summoned to attend.
Rob'tus Atkyns, Miles de Balneo, Capitalis Baro de Scaccario, Orator Procerum, declaravit præsens Parliamentum continuandum esse usque ad et in diem Veneris, (videlicet,) 3um diem instantis Martii, hora nona Aurora, Dominis sic decernentibus.