House of Lords Journal Volume 6: 1 May 1644

DIE Mercurii, 1 die Maii.

PRAYERS, by Mr. Clarke.

Domini præsentes fuerunt:

Ds. Grey de Warke, Speaker.

Answer from the H. C.

Sir Edward Leech and Mr. Page, sent to the House of Commons Yesterday with a Message, return with this Answer:

That they take Notice of putting off the Trial of the Archbishop of Canterbury until Saturday next; and concerning Sir Henry Mervin's Petition, they will send an Answer by Messengers of their own.

Countess of Carlisle Privilege, in a Suit in Chancery between her and Pawsett.

It was moved, "That the Countess Dowager of Carlile hath had a Letter sent from the Commissioners of the Great Seal, against which she desires the Benefit of the Privilege of Parliament;" which Letter was read, as followeth:

Directed, "To the Right Honourable Lucy Countess Dowager of Carlile:

After our very hearty Commendations to your Honour: Whereas it is required, on the Behalf of Hercules Pawlett Gentleman, Complainant, that your Ladyship should be warned to appear in Chancery on the First Return of the next Term, commonly called Quindena Paschæ, to answer to a Bill of Complaint there by him exhibited against your Ladyship; we are, at the Complainant's Instance, to give you Notice thereof, by this our Letter, according to the Manner used towards such Persons of Honour; praying and requiring your Ladyship hereby to take Knowledge thereof, and to give Order to those whom you do employ in such your Causes for your Honour's Appearance, and putting in your Answer to the said Bill, at the Time accordingly; whereof hoping there shall be no Default on your Part, we bid your Ladyship right heartily Farewel.

"From Westm. this One and Thirtieth of March.

"Your Honour's very loving Friends,

"H. Kent, C. S.
"Bolingbrooke, C. S.
"Jo. Wyld, C. S."

Hereupon this House Ordered, That the said Countess of Carlile shall have and enjoy her Privilege as a Peer, notwithstanding this Letter.

Message from the H. C. to expedite the Ordinance to continue the Association of the Counties of Essex, &c. under the Earl of Manchester.

A Message was brought from the House of Commons, by Sir Tho. Barrington Knight:

To desire that, in regard they have received Information that divers of the King's Forces are drawing down toward Alsebury, whereby the associated Counties may be endangered; therefore they desire that their Lordships would please to give Expedition to the Ordinance for the renewing the Earl of Manchester's Ordinance, which expires this Day, whereby the associated Counties may be secured.

The Answer returned was:

Answer.

That this House will take this Ordinance into speedy Consideration.

Message from the H. C. with Ordinances.

A Message was brought from the House of Commons, by Sir Rob't Pye Knight, and others;

To desire Concurrence in these Particulars following:

1. An Ordinance (fn. 1) for One Thousand Pounds, for the Lord General's Train of Artillery. (Here enter it.)

Agreed to.

2. An Ordinance for giving Power to the Committee for the Queen's Revenue, &c. to issue Warrants to the Commissioners of the Great Seal, for making Escheators.

Read, but not passed.

3. An Order concerning a Commission to be granted to James Viscount Clanneby, for to be a Colonel in Ulster. (Here enter it.)

Read, and Agreed to.

Answer.

The Answer returned to the Messengers of the House of Commons was:

That this House agrees to the Ordinance concerning the Thousand Pounds for the Train of Artillery, and the Order concerning the Lord Clanneboy: To the other Ordinance, concerning Escheators, this House will send an Answer by Messengers of their own.

Report of Reasons for not agreeing to the Ordinance for continuing the Association of Essex, &c. under the Earl of Manchester.

The Lord Willoughby reported from the Committee the Reasons which they have drawn up, in Answer to the Reasons of the House of Commons at the late Conference; which being read, this House Ordered, That they shall be offered to the House of Commons, at a Conference. (Here enter them.)

Message to the H. C. for a Conference about it.

A Message was sent to the House of Commons, by Sir Edward Leech and Mr. Page:

To desire a present Conference, in the Painted Chamber, concerning the Earl of Manchester's Ordinance.

The Answer returned was:

Answer.

That (fn. 2) they will give a present (fn. 3) Conference, as is desired.

The House was adjourned during Pleasure; and the Lords returning from the Conference, the House was resumed.

Messengers of the Great Seal to have a Patent.

There was presented to this House an Ordinance, for to give Power to Mr. Solicitor General to draw a Patent to the Messengers that attend the Great Seal, and the same to be passed under the Great Seal, to hold their Places Quam diu se bene gesserint; which Ordinance this House approved of, and Ordered to be sent down to the House of Commons, by the next Messengers that go down.

Ld. Willoughby and Col. King.

Ordered, That the Lord Willoughby shall have a Copy of Colonel Kinge's Answer to his Charge; and Colonel Kinge may have a Copy of the Lord Willoughbie's Charge against him.

Ordinance for excluding Members who have deserted the Houses.

Next, the House took into Consideration the Ordinance concerning the excluding of Members of both Houses that have deserted the Parliament, with the Alterations as (fn. 4) it came from the House of Commons.

And after Debate;

This Question was put, "Whether this Ordinance shall be passed, with these Amendments brought up from the House of Commons?"

And it was Resolved Negatively.

Committes to prepare Reasons for not agreeing to it.

Ordered, That these Lords following are appointed to draw up Reasons, to be offered to the House of Commons, why they agree not to this Ordinance with these Amendments:

Propositions for a Peace.

Ordered, That this House will take the Propositions for a safe and well-grounded Peace into Consideration To-morrow Morning.

Order for 1000 l. for the Ld. General's Train of Artillery.

It is this Day Ordered, by the Lords and Commons in Parliament assembled, That the Committee at Habberdashers Hall do forthwith pay unto the Lieute nant of the Ordnance, upon Accompt, One Thousand Pounds, to furnish Provisions, to enable the Train of Artillery to march; and the Lieutenant of the Ordnance is to pay the said Monies unto Captain Cannon, for the providing of Materials for the Train of Artillery, in such a Manner as that they may be brought to an Accompt."

Lord Clanneboy to be Colonel of a Regiment in Ulster.

"It is this Day Ordered, by the Lords and Commons, &c. That the Regiment of Foot formerly under the Command of the Lord Viscount Clanneboy, lately deceased, shall be under the Command of James now Lord Viscount Clanneboy, who is hereby appointed Colonel of the said Regiment, to employ the same in the Service of the Parliament against the Irish Rebels; and it is especially recommended to the Commander in Chief that is or shall be placed over the Brittish Regiments in Ulster, to grant him a Commission accordingly."

Reasons to be offered to the H. C. for not agreeing to the Ordinance for continuing the Association of the Counties of Essex, &c. under the E. of Manchester.

"1. The Lord General's Ordinance passed 15^to Julii 1642, which was precedent to the Earl of Manchester's Ordinance; and both Houses are obliged to the Lord General, by their Protestation, and his Ordinance made in Pursuance thereof; and if the Earl of Manchester's Ordinance, now desired, pass without the Addition desired by the House of Peers, it doth apparently abridge his Power, who hath done such eminent Service to the Kingdom; and the Earl of Manchester hath his Commission from the Lord General; and to make him independent to the Lord General, is as well against all Course of War as against the Words of the Lord General's Ordinance, whereby he is made Captain General of all the Forces of the whole Kingdom.

"And the Lords conceive it is of no Consequence, by Way of Argument or Reason, that this should pass in the same Words the other did, because that passed so: But, the Four Months being expired, both Houses are free to pass this, as they shall find Cause.

"2. This is but By Way of Supposition; and the Lords cannot conceive that the Lord General (who hath the supreme Command of all the Forces, and best understands what is most fit for every particular County, as well as for the whole Kingdom) should draw any of those Forces out unfittingly, or without Consultation; but do confidently rely on the Care and Prudence of his Lordship, that he will not draw them out, but for the general Good of the Kingdom, and when they may most fitly be spared in the Association.

"3. The Conditions are not altered in any Point, but in this, which both Houses, by their former Ordinance and Protestation, stand now obliged to, the Four Months being expired; and the Expectation of former Conditions is alledged but by Way of Likelihood, or Supposition, which the Lords conceive will not be expected, the Variance being but as aforesaid; and, by the Ordinances of 16 Augusti, 20 Septembris, and 17 Novembris, 1643, Power was given for the raising of Men and Monies; and, by those Ordinances, and other Means, being all before the Ordinance of 22 Januarii last, a very considerable Part of the Forces now under the Earl of Manchester's Command were raised, and the Lord General's Power not excluded by any of those Ordinances.

"4. All Forces in other Associations are raised by the like Taxes, and the Conclusion of this Allegation is granted; but the Interests of the whole Kingdom is greater than the Interest of any particular County, or any Association; and the Lords and all others have no Cause to distrust the Wisdom and Prudence of the Lord General, in directing the Forces as shall be just and fit, in case the Question supposed should happen.

"5. This is but a Supposition, for which the Lords see no Ground; and being uncertain whether the Forces will ever be commanded out of the Association by the Lord General, it cannot, in their Lordships Understanding, make any Distractions or Discontentments, as is supposed, there being no just Cause or Ground for any.

"6. There hath been (fn. 5) no Occasion for the Earl of Manchester to obey the Lord General, who never yet commanded him since he had this Ordinance for Four Months; nor is likely, if this Power desired by the Lords be not allowed of.

"And that which is just, and to which both Houses are formerly obliged, cannot be unseasonable at any Time.

"For these Reasons, the Lords do adhere to their former Resolution."

Adjourn.

House adjourned till 9^a cras.