Coal Trade: Minutes of evidence, 05 April 1830

Die Lunæ, 5 Aprilis 1830.

[213]

The Lord President in the Chair.

William Brandling Esquire is called in, and examined as follows:

When you gave Evidence before, you spoke to the Circumstance of there being, at that Time, no Regulation in force among the Collieries upon the Tyne and Wear?

I did. There was not any Regulation during the first Eight Months of the last Year.

The Trade was in a State of Non-regulation during the first Eight Months of the last Year?

Until the 1st of September.

Has the Regulation been established since that Time?

There has been a Regulation since the 1st of September last, on precisely the same Footing as that established in 1828.

Can you speak to the State of the Trade in those Rivers during the first Eight Months of 1829?

I have Reason to know that it was much depressed in consequence of the Coal Owners being obliged to resort to the freighting System. There being no Regulation, the Prices in London were depressed by the Market being glutted, so that, before the End of the first Six Months, in consequence of that low Price, we were almost universally on both Rivers driven to have recourse to the freighting System, to freight our own Coals to London; and, in consequence of the Depression of the Prices in London, which was more rapid in the first Part of the Year than the lowering of the Prices by the Coal Owners, the Coal Owners were driven to resort, I may say almost universally, to the freighting System. This caused an immediate Rise in the Rate of Freights, and the Coal Owner lost both by the increased Freight and the Depression of Price in the Market; so that, before the End of the first Six Months of the last Year, there were not, I believe, on both Rivers, Half a Dozen Collieries that were not losing Money, and working to a considerable Loss.

Have you, in your Situation as Chairman of the Coal Committee upon those Rivers, had an Opportunity of knowing the Fact you have stated, in respect to the Losses on those Collieries?

I know it both as Chairman and from my own personal Experience, being engaged in Collieries vending Coals of very different Descriptions.

When a Regulation was established in the Month of September last, was that established precisely on the same Footing as it had been in the Year 1828?

On precisely the same Footing as it had been in the Year 1828.

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Was there no Difference made with respect to the Price of Coals at Newcastle?

Yes, in respect to Price there was. The Price of Coals was different in 1828; the Coal Owners who then fixed the Prices of Coals had fixed those Prices too high, for in consequence of having fixed them so high we found a great Influx of Coals from the other Parts of the Kingdom, from Wales, from Yorkshire, from Scotland and Stockton, so that when the Coal Owners met in 1829 to fix their Prices, they were obliged to fix them from 1s. to 3s. lower than they had been in 1828, and they are at those reduced Prices now. I have a Paper with me which will shew the different Prices; it is of the same Nature and referring to the same Collieries that were referred to in a Paper I delivered in on my last Examination.

The Witness delivers in the same; and it is read, and is as follows:

PRICE of Coals per Newcastle Chaldron at Newcastle, 1830.

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Mr. Brandling.-That Paper shews, that if there was any Diminution whatever in the Cost of the Article, it would not go to the Coal Owner; it would be impossible for us to raise our Prices.

Can you state any thing like an average Reduction of Prices between 1828 and 1830?

From One to Two Shillings, and at some of the Collieries it differs as much as Three Shillings the Newcastle Chaldron.

The Committee is to understand that, in consequence of the Competition in your Markets, you were obliged to reduce the Price of the Coals, in 1830, to the Amount of One to Two Shillings a Newcastle Chaldron below the Price fixed in 1828?

Yes.

Do you conceive that the Price as now fixed at Newcastle is as high a Price as can be supported, without letting into the Market other Coals which compete with them?

I feel perfectly confident of that; and that Document I produced I think will prove that, whatever Reduction takes place in the Price of the Article, we cannot advance our Price. I very much doubt whether we shall be able to maintain the Price we have now fixed, for I understand there is a considerable Competition attempted at Stockton.

Do you conceive, if the last Duty of 6s. is taken off, that it could be taken by the Coal Owner in the Shape of an Addition to the Price of the Coal?

I do not believe we could take any Part of it, but that there would be an immediate Reduction to the full Extent to the Consumer, in those Counties where the Seaborne Coal Markets are situated; we tried the Experiment in 1828, by fixing our Prices too high.

Would there be the same Competition in case of a Reduction of the Duty Coastwise?

The Duty would be reduced on all Coals equally. Any Reduction made must be a Reduction to our Rivals in Trade also.

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In consequence of the Regulation which took place in the Month of September, has there been any Improvement in the Coal Trade upon those Two Rivers?

A very considerable Improvement, as far as the Coal Proprietors are concerned.

The Coal Proprietors, under the present System, get the Price fixed by them, and the Ship Owners are at the Risk of the Freight?

Just so.

Are you aware of the present Price of Coals in the London Market?

I am aware from the Returns on the Market Days.

Is that Price higher or lower than it was in the corresponding Month of last Year?

I believe it is rather lower than it was in the corresponding Month of the last Year.

To what do you attribute the present Lowness of Price in the London Market?

To the large Supply that has been sent. To the Competition.

Can you account for a larger Quantity having been so sent?

The larger Quantity that was sent was in consequence of the Price in December being a remunerating Price that paid very well; and then there was a large Quantity sent in in the Month of January and February in consequence of the Severity of the Weather. There was a large Quantity carried on Speculation, by the Ship Owners, in those Two Months.

Do you mean to say, that during the Months of January and February the Quantity given out under the Regulation to be exported by the several Collieries was increased in consequence of the Demand in the Month of December?

Decidedly; the Price in December regulated the Quantity given out in January.

The Quantity given out was increased in consequence of the supposed Increase of Demand in the Port of London?

Entirely so.

Was there any Notion at Newcastle of increasing the Quantity given out under the Regulation to be exported from thence, in consequence of any thing that might arise from the Inquiry which has taken place here in respect to Coals?

Not the slightest. That never entered into our Contemplation.

During the Winter, has there been any great Distress amongst the lower Class of Persons at Newcastle?

No, I think not.

It has not suffered in the same Proportion as other Towns of the same Description in other Parts of England?

I should say decidedly not, particularly among the Mining Population.

Is there not a Difference made under the Regulation in the Price of Coals sent Coastwise and those sent to the Port of London?

There is in general; it is about Two Shillings a Chaldron lower.

On what Principle is a lower Price fixed for the Coals sent coastwise than those sent to London?

It is generally supposed that is an inferior Article.

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Do they require it to be manufactured, or in other Words skreened to the same Extent?

Not to the same Extent, and those Markets will take Coals of an inferior Description.

Is the Quantity of small Coal distinguished from the Quantity of large Coal in the Vend allowed to each separate Colliery?

Not now.

So that if a Colliery shall have sent the whole Quantity allowed, whether in round or small Coal, in the early Part of the Month, they are not at liberty to send in a greater Quantity of small Coal to the Market?

No; the Regulation extends both to the round and small, which was not the Case at one Time.

On what Ground was the Alteration made, including the small Coals within the Regulation?

In some of the Collieries the Profit on small Coal is as great as the Profit on round Coal.

Therefore it was necessary to include that as well as the other?

In some Collieries there is scarcely any Profit made on small Coal; in fact, it is the Profit only on the small Coal which regulates the Exportation; and if the Coal Proprietor can have as much Profit upon his small Coal as his large, he sends it.

There is nothing to prohibit any Person, if he chose, making out a Part of his Vend in small?

Nothing but the Consideration of Profit.

Supposing a Ship to come to Sunderland wishing to be loaded with small Coal, and that the Collieries there have made out their Quantities under the Regulation for the Month, might not such a Ship on going to Newcastle have a Certainty of being supplied with small Coal there?

Nearly a Certainty, provided they would consent to pay a Price for the small Coal that would yield a Profit to the Coal Owner equal to the Profit on the large.

The Reason of including the small Coal in the monthly Vend arose from a Wish to prevent superior Advantages that might arise to some particular Collieries?

Yes.

Since you were examined last Year, have you considered further the Question of ascertaining the Amount of the Duty by Weight on Coals carried Coastwise at the Place of Shipment?

I have turned it over in my own Mind, and I have had Conversations with Persons interested in the North, and since I came to London with those interested here, and I am strongly confirmed in the Opinion that it would be most advantageous for the Coal Owner as well as for the Consumer.

Has any Difficulty, in so ascertaining the Quantity by Weight, been stated to you that appears to you to be well founded?

None.

In what Manner would you propose the Weight to be ascertained?

By actually weighing every Imperial Chaldron of Coals put on board the Ship, taking the average Weight either in London or at the Place of Shipment.

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Would you propose that the Waggons, as they come to the Staith to be put on board the Vessel, should pass over a Weighing Machine?

Every Waggon should be actually weighed, and the Amount of Tons put into the Certificate.

The Weight being ascertained by merely passing over a Weighing Machine?

Yes; the Waggon repassing over that same Weighing Machine.

Would there be any Difficulty in putting up such Weighing Machines at each Staith?

I do not believe there would be any Difficulty, or that any Delay of consequence could be created.

Would there be any Objection on the Part of the Coal Owners to the Expence they would be at to provide such Weighing Machines?

No; not the least, in my Opinion, on the Part of the Coal Owners.

Supposing the Weight to be ascertained, in the Mode you have stated, at the Port of Shipment, where would you propose that the Duty should be actually paid?

At the Custom House in the Port of Delivery, before the Delivery of the Cargo commenced; before the Ship was allowed to commence unloading a Cargo of Coals, the Duty should be paid.

You would propose that after the Coals were put on board the Ship, they should take a Certificate from the Customs at the Port of Shipment, specifying the Weight?

Yes, and pay the Duty upon that Certificate, provided there was no Suspicion of any unfair Practices, in which Case the Coals would have to be re-weighed at the Port of Delivery.

Would it not be the Interest of the Coal Owner to put his Coals on board in the best possible State for the Market?

Decidedly; it always is and always must be his Interest, for it causes an immediate Variation in the Price in London if a bad Cargo comes. It is a great Subject of Anxiety with the Coal Owners to put their Coal on board in the roundest and the driest State.

The Coal Owners for their own Interest would always be careful to send Coals in as dry a State as possible?

Certainly.

In case the Coals were sent from any Colliery in a State in which the wetting was to any Extent, would it not have the Effect of immediately lowering the Price of Coal from that particular Colliery in the Market of London?

It has constantly that Effect; sometimes it is unavoidable; we are obliged to send Coals wet, either from the Weather or the State of the Mine, in which Case there is a Depression of Price immediately.

In what Mode would you, in the first place, ascertain what ought to be the real Weight of an Imperial Chaldron?

By actually weighing an Imperial Chaldron, the whole of it at once, at each Colliery, to get the average Weight of an Imperial Chaldron at each Colliery, and then fixing the Average at which the Duty should be charged from the Average of all the Collieries.

Do you apprehend that the Coal Owners at Newcastle and Sunderland would be satisfied if the Duty was put upon the average Weight of the Coals, taking all the Collieries together?

I believe they would perfectly.

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Would not the Collieries which sell at a low Price think it a Hardship to be charged at the same Rate with those which sell at a high Price?

I never heard of any Difficulty in that respect. I do not believe that the Difference in the specific Gravity of Coal is so great as has been stated, as far as the North Country Coals are concerned.

Supposing some Coals to weigh heavier than others, would that be the Means of producing any Hardship with respect to Price on the Consumer?

No, I should think not; they would get the same Quantity of consumable Matter.

Are you at all acquainted with the Circumstances of the Walls End Colliery?

Yes; I have made some Inquiries with respect to the Price at which that Colliery was wrought in 1792-93-94; and the Prices at which it is wrought now appear in Mr. Buddle's Evidence last Year.

Can you state to the Committee at what Rate it was worked in the former Years?

A Gentleman in whom I can confide, who has had the Inspection of the Books of that Colliery, informs me, that the working Prices in 1792 were by the Chaldron 7s. 10¼d.; in 1793, 8s. 5½d.; and in 1794, 11s. 2¼d.; the Quantity sold in each of those Years being nearly the same, 33,000 and 30,000.

Do you know the Prices at which they were sold in those Years?

I think it is stated to have been 18s.

Can you recollect the Price Mr. Buddle stated as the Price at which that Colliery is worked now?

It is to be collected from his Evidence, for the Items are not connected together, to be nearly a Guinea.

Have the Circumstances under which that Colliery is worked very materially altered since the Period of 1793?

Very materially indeed. It is not perhaps the most expensive working Colliery, but it is one of the most expensive working Collieries on the Tyne.

What is the Occasion of that Expence?

The State of the Workings under Ground, the great Distance from the Shaft, and their getting merely the Remainder of the Coal.

When you say Remainder of the Coal, do you mean by their working the Pillars?

They are working the Pillars, some of which formerly used to be left. Until the Invention of Safety Lamps they could not recover this Part, and the Coal used to be sacrificed.

In the Years 1793, 1794 and 1795, they had a Quantity of Virgin Coal?

They had a Quantity of good Coal; now they have a great Portion of crushed Coal.

That must be to the Owners a great Expence?

Yes; that is the Case with all old Collieries.

Those close to the River are generally of that Description, the oldest Collieries?

Yes.

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Therefore, in respect of these Collieries, the Expence of working them has very considerably increased since that Time?

Very considerably increased since that Time; I should say there are some Collieries working at a greater Expence than a Guinea a Chaldron.

With respect to the Collieries that have taken their Place, they are further from the River?

They are, some of them.

Are they deeper or shallower?

Some of them are shallower, but the Coal is not in general supposed to be so good. It is the superior Quality of those Coals in the old Collieries which enables the Proprietors to work them.

The Wayleaves of course from those Collieries farther from the River are more expensive than those situated as Walls End Colliery is?

Very considerably.

Have the Wayleave Rents increased since the Years 1793 and 1794?

I do not think they have, but I cannot speak confidently to that; but I do not think that the general Rate on which they are paid has increased much.

In your Situation as Chairman of the Coal Committee you have had an Opportunity of examining into the Affairs of the Collieries, so as to know the Prices at which many of them can work their Coals?

Yes, I have, in consequence of Matters being referred to me.

Of course you consider that in some respect confidential?

I can state generally what I conceive the Cost Price to range from; I should say 16s. or 17s., for some of the Collieries very favorably situate, to 23s.

Is that on the Newcastle Chaldron or the London Chaldron?

The Newcastle Chaldron.

The Sale Prices range from what Sum to what?

From 31s. to about 20s.

The Cost of the working is from 17s. to 23s., and the Sale Price from 20s. to 32s.?

Yes.

With respect to the Coastwise Duty, there is no Coastwise Duty paid for Coals imported into Scotland?

None.

Was that always the Case?

There has not been any paid that I am aware of since I have been engaged in the Trade.

How long have you been engaged in this Business?

About Thirty Years.

In consequence of there being no Duty upon Coals carried Coastwise to Scotland, is not the Newcastle Coal sent almost up to the Pits of the Scotch Coal?

I believe there is a considerable Quantity sold in Edinburgh, and at Leith, and in Fife; and there is a very increasing Trade to the Northward, to Dundee and Aberdeen.

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There being no Duty on Coals sent to Scotland, do you find any Difficulty in competing with the Scotch Coal?

None at all.

But in England, as the Inland Coal is not subject to that Duty, and yours is subject to the Duty, you find that wherever the Inland Coal can reach, it tends to exclude you from the Market?

Yes, the Duty operates as a Bonus to the Inland Collieries; it has actually created a Monopoly in favour of the Inland Coals in some of our own Markets.

Have you any doubt that if the Coasting Duties were taken off, it would increase the Consumption of Coals from the Collieries at Newcastle and Sunderland?

It would increase the Consumption very considerably; it would benefit both us and the Shipping Interest, and I have no doubt we should thereby recover some of the Markets we have lost.

It is to that increased Sale the Coal Owners look for a Benefit to result to them from the Reduction of Duty?

Entirely from the Extension in the Quantity he would sell, and not in the slightest degree in the Increase of Price. I have no Idea that we could increase the Price at all.

Does the specific Gravity of Coals bear any Proportion to their real Value; is the heavy Coal supposed to be more valuable for Use than lighter?

I believe in our North Country Coals there is very little Difference; I have understood there is very considerable Difference in some of the large round Coals in the West of England, and some of the Inland Coals.

Did you mean to say that the Difference of 2s. in Price, according to the Regulation between Coals carried Coastwise and to London, is still in Existence?

It is not; the Coal Proprietors in the North found, that though this was an inferior Article sent to the Coast, yet after the Coals were bought some Purchasers were in the habit of clearing for the Coasting Ports, and then carrying them to London and passing them off for the superior Coal in the London Market; in consequence of this the Coal Owners have fixed One Price for the Coals both for the Coast and for London.

How long is it since that Alteration was made?

It is since I have been in London; I heard of it about Three Weeks or a Month ago, that the Coal Owners discovered the Practice I have mentioned.

What did you mean by the Inland Coals beating you out of your own Market?

We are Twenty Miles further from the Interior than we used to be, in consequence of the Exemption from Duty of Inland Coals.

Very much also, perhaps, in consequence of the increased Number of Canals?

Yes, of the Conveyance by Canals and Railroads of Coals which pay no Duty.

Are there not a great Number of Collieries which work at a much lower Rate than the Walls End?

I do not think there are any on the River that can work at less than 15s. or 16s.

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Many do work at 15s. or 16s.?

None of the old Collieries which produce Coals of the best Quality work at less.

Having stated that the Newcastle Coal has a less extended Market than it had formerly, is the Quantity exported from the Two Ports less than formerly?

No; it has considerably increased, but not increased to the Extent it would have done if we had had a similar Protection to that which the Inland Coal has.

If the Expence of working the Walls End Collieries and other Inland Collieries has much increased, you would not be able to work with any Chance of Remuneration were it not for the Regulation?

I should think that many of the Collieries, after a certain Time, would be to be abandoned.

The Effect of Regulation being to raise the Price of Coal, it enables those Collieries to go on?

Yes.

Is there any Difference in the Demand for Coal in consequence of a severe Winter?

It makes a considerable Difference in the Demand for Coal.

Is there in consequence of that any Increase in Price?

No Increase whatever in the Price takes place at Newcastle. During the Regulation, we never vary our Price from one End of the Year to the other; whatever the Weather may be, and whatever the Demand, we always furnish Coals to the Ship Owners at the same Rate.

If there was no Regulation, the Demand would affect the Price?

Just so.

Does the Regulation extend to Coal going Coastwise?

Yes, the same Regulation, apportioning the Quantity to be worked to the Power the Collieries posses, and the Quality of the Coal.

The Amount of Coal to be sent by each Colliery includes Coals carried anywhere?

Yes; carried Coastwise and sent to London. Some Collieries are more peculiarly considered as Coasting Collieries, and when the Demand on the Coast is greater than at other particular Times of the Year, those Collieries are allowed to send an extra Quantity to the Coast during those Months.

The proportionable Quantity for the Year being continued the same?

Yes; if the Price in London rises there is a larger Quantity given out, which extends over all the Collieries, and if there is a lower Price in London that Quantity is the more restricted; the Price in London entirely regulates the Quantity vended at Newcastle for London, and the Demand from the Coasting Markets for the Coast.

The proportionate Quantity given out for each Supply is governed by Regulation?

Yes; it is merely the Proportion between the different Collieries; what they shall vend.

You fix the Price at Newcastle?

Yes.

That is fixed for the Year?

Yes.

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The next Year, in fixing the Price, have you a Reference to the Demand?

That is fixed entirely by considering the Competition that the Prices may have created.

If there had been but little Competition you would be enabled to raise the Price higher?

If we had found that the Price had produced no Competition, we should have returned to the Prices of 1828. The Experiment of that Year shewed that we could not support those Prices without creating a very considerable Competition from Wales, Yorkshire and Stockton. We endeavour to keep the Prices at a Point a little below what the Consumer can get the same Article for elsewhere; a Price of which the Consumer ought not to complain.

Can you speak to the Price of Coals paid by the Consumer at Newcastle for House Use?

I can speak generally to the Price; they do not burn the very best Coals generally in that Country; about 18s. a Newcastle Chaldron at the Pits.

What Description of Coals do they usually burn?

From the Collieries immediately in the Neighbourhood of the Town.

At what Sum is the Price of that particular Description of Coal fixed under the Regulation?

The Price of the Coal I should say generally about 23s.; of that Coal from 21s. to 23s.

What the People of Newcastle pay 18s. for, is put on board Ship at 21s. to 23s.

Yes; we charge nothing but the Conveyance.

The Consumer at Newcastle sends his own Cart to the Pit's Mouth for his Coals?

Yes, for Household Purposes.

Are they skreened?

Sometimes, but not often.

The Coals sent at from 21s. to 23s. on board Ship have to be carried a considerable Way to the Ship?

In some Instances from Three to Four Miles.

Are they skreened with great Care?

They are.

Supposing a Colliery would obtain a Vend of equal Extent at the Price of 18s. to the Consumer in Newcastle, that would pay him nearly as well as the Price he gets for the Coal as put on board the Ship?

I should think in many Instances quite as well, if not better.

Have you made any Inquiry in respect to the Price of Coal at Leeds?

I wrote down to an Agent of my Brother there, who has the supplying of the Town under Act of Parliament, and I found there is not so much Difference there as I expected between the Price on board Ship at Newcastle and the Price at Leeds.

Is there any Seaborne Coal sent from that Colliery in the Neighbourhood of Leeds which you speak of?

A small Proportion; not any great Quantity.

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Sufficient to affect the Price?

No; I should think not.

Comparing the different Measurements, can you tell what Difference of Price there is between the Coal as consumed at Leeds and the Coal put on board at Newcastle, of the same Quality?

I received a Letter in answer to one I wrote, inquiring about the Prices at Leeds; and I think at Leeds the Coals delivered in the Town of Leeds are about 7s. 1d. per Ton; and I consider that the Coals of the same Description, of equally good Quality, are put on board Ship at Newcastle at about 8s. 9d. per Ton.

From the Collieries at Leeds do you know whether Coals are brought into the Town of Leeds?

They are.

Are they brought in by a Railway for which a Rent is paid, or the Railway under an Act of Parliament?

By a Railway under an Act of Parliament of many Years standing.

Is the Expence of working the Colliery from whence they come of the same Nature as the Expence of working those Collieries at Newcastle?

Nothing like the Expence of working the Tyne Collieries.

Have you any Means of speaking to the Price of Coals as paid by the Consumer in any other great Towns in England?

I am not acquainted with any others.

The Witness is directed to withdraw.

Ordered, That this Committee be adjourned to Wednesday the 28th Instant, One o'Clock.