Appendix: poor laws, 22 April 1831

Die Veneris, 22° Aprilis 1831.

The Marquess of Salisbury in the Chair.

Sir Morris Ximenes Baronet is called in, and examined as follows:

You are a Magistrate of Berkshire?

I am, and also Wiltshire and Devonshire; but I act but little in Devonshire.

Will you have the goodness to state with what Parish you are particularly connected?

The Parish of Wargrave, in the County of Berks.

Are the Rates very oppressive there?

By no means.

To what Extent?

About Three Shillings in the Pound. When the Parish was surveyed and inclosed, about Twelve or Fourteen Years ago, it was supposed our Rates were on about the Value of Two Thirds. Now we pay Two Eighteen-penny Rates, making Three Shillings in the Year. I apprehend, from the reduced Value of the Land, we are very near now to a Rack Rent; to the Rent which was then Two Thirds.

What is the Acreage of the Parish?

I should think about Five thousand, but not Six thousand Acres.

Can you state what is the Population?

I am not prepared to state that, but it appears in the Population Return of 1821.

Have you many Persons out of work?

From a Plan which I took the Liberty of proposing, I got all our Farmers, about Six or Seven Months ago, the Beginning of Winter, to agree to give up One Acre of Land in every Hundred into the Hands of the Overseer of the Parish, which he was to have dug by the Spade by those Persons who wanted Work; and the Farmer giving up his Land was to pay what was supposed it would cost him to plough. I believe it was agreed very low - Twelve Shillings an Acre. This Land was given to the Overseer to have dug by the Spade, for which he paid Two-pence Halfpenny a Pole; that amounted, I think, to about 33s.

To whom did he pay that?

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The Occupiers paid him 12s. an Acre for the cultivating it by Spade Husbandry; he paid to the Poor who went to work Twopence Halfpenny a Pole to dig that Land. The Amount of digging that Land came to about 33s. an Acre, about 20s. an Acre more than he received from the Proprietor or Occupier of the Land. He took Fifty Acres, we will say, from the Parish to have dug in this Way; I believe it was about Thirty-five. There would appear against the Parish an Increase of Parish Rates for that 50£., but that was not at all the Case, for those Men who were so employed to dig by the Spade would have been obliged to be relieved from the Parish Rates without any Work at all, therefore we gained the very desirable Point of having something to set them to when they came: whenever a Man came to ask for Work, we could give that; and we stopped the Application, and found it do a great deal of good. I do not believe, from having made all the Inquiry I could, that if we should pay 20s. an Acre more than we received, we had any Loss, for we must have given that Money in Relief, without having any Work at all. I made the Trial myself on about an Acre and a Quarter of different Descriptions. Some of the Paupers were used only to sawing; they could not dig well: one was an old Pensioner, a Soldier; and another a good Labourer. The Sawyer earned about 1s. 4¾d. a Day; he only came from Seven in the Morning to Five in the Evening: another Sawyer, not accustomed to digging, produced 1s. 5½d. a Day; the old Pensioner got 1s. 5½d. a Day; and a young Man, accustomed to Labour, got 2s. 1d. a Day by digging at 2½d. a Pole. They began at Seven in the Morning with the working Hours, they rested, and left off at Five in the Afternoon. Of course, being my own Land, I gave them a little Remuneration of my own: but this was what they bond fide earned.

The Witness delivers in the Statement, which is read, and is as follows:

Land dug for Sir M.X. in the Month of February 1831.

N.B.-The Men only worked from Seven o'Clock in the Morning till Five in the Afternoon.

This was in the last February?

Yes; and the Land dug extremely bad.

How did you select the Land?

We agreed in the Parish, each Person for every Hundred Acres, to give an Acre to the Overseers: we all signed an Agreement to do so, to give Employment to the Poor.

Then there existed no Jealousy between the Occupiers as to the Land?

Certainly not. When the Overseer wanted Work, he sent to me to know whether I had any Land to be dug.

Did you find any Disinclination on the Part of the Labourers to be so employed?

By no means. I found among the idle Labourers a little shifting, if I may use that Expression; but good Labourers I found desirous of Employment.

You did not find a Feeling in them, as if they felt almost insulted by Application to the Labour, as if it were totally useless?

By no means.

What was the Surplus Expence above the 12s.?

About 1£. an Acre.

Did you find any comparative Reduction in your Poor's Rates in consequence?

We found no Increase. I cannot positively say that there was a Reduction, for I have not seen the Account; but I feel certain that the Sum of Money that might have been supposed to be added as the Extra Money paid for the digging above what we received, we should have been obliged to have given to the Labourer, to have kept him and his Family without Work.

The Produce of this Land went to the Occupier, of course?

It was returned directly to him.

The Parish took no Land of their own?

No, they did not.

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Is not a great deal of Land in Wargrave of a stiff and cold Nature?

Very much so.

Did you make any Difference in consequence of that?

I had no particular Communication with the Overseer upon that Subject; I do not think he did.

It cost the Parish about 20s. beyond the 12s.?

I can state exactly what it cost. I think it cost about 1£. 13s. 3d., and the Parish gave us 12s.; we supposed they ought to have given us 14s.

Do you find that the Labourers are in a more satisfied Condition in that Parish than they were previously?

I may just take the Liberty to say, I am afraid there is another Circumstance which causes a great deal of Confusion in the Parish, and that is the drinking Beer at the new Beer Houses; even the Children are seen drunk. There are Four established and about to be established within One Mile of my House. I find that a Number of Families who have Money, some who have Children who earn something, are worse off from their Husbands drinking at these Beer Houses than they used; that the Women complain that their Husbands do not bring their Money Home, for that it is spent at those Beer Houses.

Is there the same Spirit of Dissatisfaction existing among the Poor from the Want of Work?

I have not seen much Spirit of Dissatisfaction in our Parish; but they prefer the digging to the Stone-breaking, which appears more degrading.

Do you know what is the System of Roundsmen?

I have heard of it, but we always set our Faces against it, as we had great Objection to have Men we did not like; and Men would have to go where they did not like to go.

You do not employ the Poor at breaking Stones merely as an Employment?

No, only when we want Stones for the Roads.

During the late Disturbances in Berkshire, was your Parish quiet?

Perfectly quiet; we had a very good constabulary Force, both Horse and Foot; we found them very willing to be sworn in; we were obliged to make a Selection, swearing in those we preferred.

You act as Chairman of the Magistrates in your Session?

Yes.

Is the Land in your Parish chiefly Arable or Pasture?

Chiefly Arable; there may be 500 Acres of the latter.

The Population in 1821 was 1,409?

I think it is a great deal more now: the Number of new Houses built, and apparently full, must have extended the Population.

Have the Cottages generally Gardens to them?

Very small. It has been very much the Fashion of late, very much against my Inclination, to build Rows of Houses. I have always, when I have built, wished them to have good Gardens. I am convinced if there were larger Gardens, it would be a great Comfort. I always thought the Repeal of a very old Act of Parliament, which prevented Cottages being built without a certain Quantity of Land, was to be regretted: it was a very great Blessing to the Poor.

By what Class of Persons have those Cottages been built?

By Persons on Speculation. There is a little Sawyer has built a great Number. I do not think they answer his Purposes; he asks Half a Crown a Week.

Are those Cottages exempted from the Rates?

We cannot legally do that; they are all brought into the Rate; but then we have a Meeting of the Magistrates, according to Act of Parliament, to take so many out of the Rate who we conceive are not able to pay.

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Does the Parish pay the Rents of any of those Cottages?

I have always set my Face against that; but I believe there are a few underhand, where it is done for large Families.

Your Experience would not lead you to advocate Cottages in lone Situations: you would allow sufficient Space for a Garden, but you would not advocate their being built so far apart as to be in lonely Situations?

No, clearly not; Two Cottages built together are much cheaper and more moral for the People.

Do not you find Objections made to Rows of Houses now?

They are so fond of marrying, they think they will get better provided for by the Parish, that they take any thing. I have never heard of any Objection to Rows of Houses.

What is the Average Rate of Wages for an able-bodied Labourer in that Parish?

From 9s. to 10s. a Week; but they do a great deal by Task Work, and earn much more.

Do they receive any Allowance in addition to those Wages?

Oh yes, according to their Families.

What sort of Allowance do they receive?

There is a sort of Calculation; if the Loaf of Bread costs Tenpence, it is cast up Two Loaves for a Man for a Week, and One apiece for each of his Family.

Is that by any Scheme published by the Magistrates?

It is a sort of Understanding; we cannot legally do it; but they so understand it, and act upon it.

Is there a decided Opinion as to the Legality of it?

We are of Opinion that they cannot legally do it; but we recommend it because we cannot let the People starve.

You consider it unavoidable?

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Certainly: no Man with Five or Six Children can live on 9s. or 10s. a Week. But there is one Thing which I think would greatly benefit the Poor, if Provisions could be provided for them at a fair Rate; when I say at a fair Rate, I know, to my own Knowledge, for Thirty or Forty Years there had been a Number of little Shopkeepers set up who charge at least One Third more than the fair Price of Provisions, and that the Poor are obliged to go to these Shops, and they get short Weight and short Measure. I have always endeavoured in my Parish to have a Shop established to distribute Provisions at the original Cost; I have not been able to do it, but I think an Act of Parliament to that Effect would be of the greatest Benefit. A Man would get for 1s. what he now pays 18d. for; and the Agricultural Poor would be all satisfied. If their Bacon, their Flour, their Potatoes, and One or Two other Articles, the first Requisites of Life, were obliged to be sold by the Overseer of the Parish at the Prime Cost, I am convinced 1s. would go as far as 18d. now. They buy at those little Shops, where it is got at Second or Third Hand; they do not pay for it; they are unhappy and miserable; they are obliged to remain dealing at the Shop; and the Shop ultimately gets no Benefit from that Class of Persons. I have endeavoured, through my own Keeper's Wife, to sell a few Articles; they came readily to buy the Article Rice; they give it to their Children, and they are very much pleased with it. I will mention a Circumstance which I think is a very great Oppression upon the Poor; it loses their Time and lessens their Earnings, and therefore, perhaps, it would not be improper to mention it here. A poor Man's Name, who is drawn for the Militia, is obliged to go, in some Places, Seven Miles to make his Appeal; in other Places Ten, in others Twelve; very many Appeals are on the Ground that they are too short, which is a Thing quite obvious; and others, that they are lame, with their Certificate from a Surgeon. At Oakingham there were considerably above 200 Appeals, and I think we confirmed every Man's Appeal, except Seven or Eight; those Two hundred Men had to come Six and Seven Miles; they lost a whole Day's Work, say 2s.; perhaps they spent 6d. in coming; and it rained perhaps. I should propose, if any Alterations were made, that those Persons should make their Appeal to their neighbouring Deputy Lieutenants, within Two or Three Miles of their own Houses, which might be taken in an Afternoon, and the poor Man would not lose his Day's Work, or be put to Expence or Inconvenience

Have you had any Experience with regard to Spade Husbandry being more or less productive than Husbandry by the Plough?

My own was very good; but I did not look at any others.

Was the Difference equal to the Difference in the Cost of Cultivation?

I should suppose not; but I am no Judge of that, I am not an Agriculturist. In my own Case it was certainly more productive; but mine was very trifling, only a Couple of Acres.

The Cultivation by Spade moves the Ground more than by the Plough?

If they dig it fairly, it goes a Spit deep, which is about Ten Inches.

Are you acquainted with the Management of the Parish of White Waltham?

Not particularly.

The Poor's Rates in that Parish have been brought down to a very small Amount, have they not?

I am not acquainted with the Fact, but I understand the Management of that Parish to be very good.

Have you any Poorhouse in the Parish of Wargrave?

Yes, a very good one, and very well conducted; we contract with the Person who keeps it, and the Contract is 3s. a Week or under.

What Description of Persons do you place in it?

Those who are old and decrepit, and Children who have no Persons to take care of them; and if any Persons cannot find Houses, which, notwithstanding the Number of Houses, is sometimes the Case, we allow them to come in.

What is the Number of Inhabitants?

I cannot state that, but they are not numerous.

It is not made the Means of preventing Persons receiving Parish Assistance when they are deserving of receiving that Assistance?

Certainly not; if Families come in who can with their Earnings support themselves, we make them pay 1s. a Week for lodging there.

You do not threaten Persons with large Families that you will send them to the Workhouse if they are not content with the Relief given to them?

By no means. I will not say that that Threat has not been used to a bad Family, but certainly not generally, by any means.

The Administration of the Poorhouse is, in your Opinion, good?

Yes; I remember in Thirty or Forty Years but One Complaint, and I indicted the Keeper of the House for it.

Is there Labour there?

Yes; that is given to the Poorhouse Keeper in addition to the Sum per Head; but there are so few that earn any thing, except by digging in the Garden, which is very large, that I believe he has hard Work to make it do; and when they go out to work for any Persons, they carry a Bag with Meat and Bread, which is quite sufficient for the Day.

Is the Diet Table settled by the Magistrates?

No; it is never brought before us as a Diet Table.

There is no Complaint brought before the Magistrates?

No, or we should certainly look into it; it is managed by a Select Committee, much better certainly than it used to be in former Years.

Are there many Cottages in your Parish which have not some Land?

No, except in the Village; there are a few in the Village which have not any Land.

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What is the comparative Comfort of those Families who live in the Village and have no Land, and of those who live away and have Land?

I suppose, if they are at Day Work, they may earn a little more by being nearer to it; but I believe there are very many in the Village who pay above 10£. a Year Rent for their Cottages.

The Witness is directed to withdraw.

Ordered, That this Committee be adjourned to Monday next, Twelve o'Clock.