Journal of the House of Lords: Volume 7, 1644. Originally published by His Majesty's Stationery Office, London, 1767-1830.
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DIE Sabbati, 22 die Februarii.
Message to the H. C. to sit P. M; and with the Letter from Holland about Mr. Counteen.
To acquaint them, that this House intends to sit this Afternoon, at Four of the Clock, in regard it is the last Day of the Treaty at Uxbridge; and desire them to sit likewise, if it may stand with their Conveniency.
Ordinance for Officers to repair to their Colours.
Next, the Ordinance for commanding Officers to repair unto their Colours, was reported, as fit to pass, with a small Alteration; which being read, was Agreed to, and Ordered to be sent down to the House of Commons, to desire their Concurrence therein.
Wright, Printer to this House, freed from serving as a Soldier.
Upon reading the Petition of John Wright, Printer to this House: It is Ordered, in regard of his daily Attendance upon the House, for printing Public Business, That he shall be freed from being compelled to serve as a Soldier, and shall not be charged therewith.
Letter from the Commissioners for the Treaty; with Papers about the Propositions concerning Ireland.
"We sat up so late the last Night upon the Conclusion of the Business of Ireland, and the Papers that passed between us are so many and long, that we could not give you an Account thereof until this Time. You will now receive all the Papers of the last Three Days of Treaty concerning Ireland, and some other Papers which were delivered unto us Yesterday by the King's Commissioners, with our Answers. We shall be ready in all to observe your Directions, and remain
Answer from the H. C.
Message to the H. C. with the Ordinance for Officers to repair to their Colours.
To deliver to them the Ordinance concerning commanding of Officers to repair to their Colours, to which this House (fn. 1) Agrees with the Alterations, wherein this House desires Concurrence.
De La Salle & al. and Pickering, & al.
Upon reading the Petition of Peter De La Salles: It is Ordered, That this House will hear the Counsel on both Sides, touching the Business between him and Pyckeringe, and others, on Tuesday next come Sevennight, at this Bar.
Mansell and Harris.
Parliament's Commissioners Reasons, why the King had not Power to grant the Cessation with the Rebels in Ireland.
"We conceive that the Arguments used by us, that His Majesty neither had or hath Power to make the Cessation with the Rebels of Ireland, might have fully satisfied your Lordships; and if any Doubts yet remain, we are ready by Conference to clear them. Your Lordships may well call to Mind the several Causes we insisted upon in the Statute, and the Arguments we have given from the Common Law, and other Proceedings in Parliament; and we do affirm, that several great Sums of Money were raised by particular Persons, and by Corporations, according to the true Intent of the Statute, who ought to have the Benefit of the same, according to divers other Acts of Parliament in Pursuance thereof; and, upon Failure of Payment by any particular Persons, the Forfeiture was to accrue to the common Benefit of the rest not failing; and we do deny that the Argument of Interest was at all waved by us: And we conceive these Wants alledged by your Lordships (if any such were), in justifying the Cessation, were supplied, from Time to Time, by the Houses of Parliament, until His Majesty's Forces were so quartered in and about the common Roads to Ireland, that Provisions going thither were intercepted, and neither Monies, Cloaths, Victuals, or other Things, could pass by Land with Safety to be transported; and when that both Houses of Parliament were desirous further to supply those Wants, and for that Purpose did tender a Bill to His Majesty, it was refused: And we still alledge, that we have no Reason to be satisfied concerning the Cessation, by any Arguments used by your Lordships, or by any Thing contained in the Extracts of the Letters and Papers delivered to us by your Lordships, as from the Lords Justices and Council of Ireland, and the Officers of the Army; nor, though desired by us, have your Lordships afforded us Liberty to compare those Extracts with the Originals, whereby we might have the Names of the Persons by whom they were written, which we now again desire. We are therefore still clearly of Opinion, as is expressed in our former Paper of the 10th of February, concerning the Cessation; and do desire your Lordships full Answer to our Demands concerning Ireland.
King's Commissioners justify the Cessation; and assign the Reasons why the King did not pass the Bill for raising more Money for Ireland, as the former Money raised for that Purpose was diverted to other Uses.
"We did not conceive that your Lordships had believed that any Arguments used by you could satisfy us against His Majesty's Power to make a Cessation with the Rebels in Ireland, which appears to have been made by Him by the Advice of His Council there, and for the Preservation of His Majesty's Protestant Subjects of that Kingdom, who in all Probability would have perished by Famine and the Sword, if that Cessation had not been made; and we shall be very ready to receive further Information from your Lordships, by Conference or otherwise, in that Particular, either concerning any Clauses in the Statute, or Arguments of Common Law, or Proceedings of Parliament (your Lordships having never mentioned the one, or made any Case upon the other), upon which you intend (fn. 2) to insist: And for the several great Sums of Money that were paid by particular Persons and Corporations upon that Statute mentioned by your Lordships, we are sorry that we are compelled, by your Lordships insisting thereon, to inform your Lordships, that His Majesty had clear Information, that not only much of the Money raised by the Act for the Four Hundred Thousand Pounds, which was passed for the better suppressing that most wicked and execrable Rebellion in Ireland, and for the Payment of the Debts of this Kingdom, but also of the Money raised by the Statute (on which your Lordships insist) for the speedy and effectual reducing of the Rebels of Ireland, &c. and other Monies raised by Contribution and Loan for the Relief of His Majesty's distressed Subjects of that Kingdom, were (fn. 3) expended (contrary to the Intent of the Acts by which the same were levied, and of the Persons who lent and contributed the same) towards the Maintenance of the Forces in this Kingdom under the Command of the Earl of Essex; and that many Regiments of Horse and Foot, levied for the War of Ireland, under the Command of the Lord Wharton, the Lord Kerrey, Sir Faithfull Fortescue, and others, were likewise employed in that Army under the Earl of Essex, at Edge Hill; and therefore His Majesty refused to consent to the Bill presented to His Majesty after this, for the levying more Money for Ireland, justly fearing that the same might be used as the former had been: And for the few Cloaths (for there were no Monies) intercepted by His Majesty's Soldiers in His Majesty's Quarters, which are said to be intended for Ireland, the same were intercepted near Coventry, and going thither, after that City had refused to receive His Majesty though at the Gates: But His Majesty never refused to give any safe Pass through (fn. 4) His Quarters for any Goods or Provisions which were intended or prepared for Ireland; neither was the same ever desired. Forthe Extracts and Copies of Letters delivered by us to your Lordships from the Lords Justices and Council of Ireland, and the Officers of the Army, we have been and are willing that your Lordships should compare them with the Originals; but for your having the Names of the Persons who writ the same (since there can be no Doubt of the Truth of our Assertion), we conceive it not reasonable to deliver the same, not knowing what Inconveniency any of them might incur (since you seem not to like that Advice), if at any Time they should be found within your Quarters. And having now satisfied your Lordships in the Matter of the Cessation, we shall gladly proceed in the Treaty with your Lordships, upon any Thing that may be apparently good for His Majesty's Protestant Subjects there, and the re-settling of (fn. 5) that Kingdom in His Majesty's Obedience.
Parliament's Commissioners insist on their Demands concerning Ireland; that the Money made Use of was reimbursed; and that the King had used all possible Means to prevent the raising Money to suppress the Rebellion there.
"We do conceive that the Arguments used by us might have fully satisfied your Lordships against His Majesty's Power to make a Cessation with the Rebels in Ireland, having answered whatever your Lordships hath hitherto alledged to the contrary, and offered, if any Doubts yet remain, by Conference to clear them, which still we are ready to do; and we have heard nothing just or reasonable for that Cessation: It will be made evident that the Necessities, which by your Lordships were made Excuses for the Cessation, were created on Purpose to colour the same; and we are compelled, by your Lordships Paper, to let you know, that the Committees of Parliament, sent into Ireland to endeavour to supply their Necessities, were discountenanced by the principal Instruments for that Cessation; and, when they had taken up Two Thousand Pounds, upon their Personal Security, for the Army there, they were presently after commanded from the Council, by a Letter brought thither from His Majesty by the Lord Ormond's Secretary; and when the Officers of the Army were contented to subscribe for Land in Satisfaction of their Arrears, it was declared from His Majesty, that He disapproved of such Subscriptions, whereby that Course was diverted. And we do affirm, that whatever Sums of Money raised for Ireland were made Use of by both Houses of Parliament were fully satisfied, with Advantage; and, as we are informed, before the Bill mentioned in our former Paper was refused by His Majesty. And for the Regiments of Horse and Foot, mentioned by your Lordships to be raised for Ireland, and employed otherwise by the Houses of Parliament, it is true that Forces were so designed; and, when the Money, Arms, and other Provisions, were all ready, and nothing wanting but a Commission from His Majesty for the Lord Wharton, who was to command them, the same could not be obtained, which was the Cause these Forces did not go thither: And when Twelve Ships and Six Pinnaces were prepared, with One Thousand or more Land Forces, for the Service of Ireland, and nothing desired but a Commission from His Majesty, the Ships lying ready, and staying for the same near Three Weeks together, (fn. 5) at Three Hundred Pounds a Day Charge, yet the same was denied, though often desired. And where your Lordships seem to imply that the Provisions seized by His Majesty's Forces were going from Coventry, it was made known to His Majesty that the same were for Ireland. And your Lordships must needs conceive that (the Papers you delivered to us being but Extracts, and for that you deny us so to compare them with the Originals as to have the Names of the Persons by whom they were written) it is altogether unreasonable for us to give any Credit to them; it being manifest, by this and our former Papers and Debates, that the Cessation with the Rebels in Ireland is both unjust and unlawful: And therefore we insist on our Demands concerning Ireland, as apparently good for His Majesty's Subjects there, and for the reducing of that Kingdom to His Majesty's Obedience.
King's Commissioners desire to know, if the Article in the Treaty with the Scots, that no Treaty of Peace shall be made without mutual Consent, extends to Ireland.
"In the Eighth Article of the Treaty for the coming of the Scotts Army into England, dated 29 Nov. at Edinburgh, delivered to us by your Lordships amongst the Papers for Ireland, and desired by the Twelfth Proposition to be confirmed by Act of Parliament, it is agreed, that no Cessation, or any Pacification or Agreement for Peace whatsoever, shall be made by either Kingdom, without the mutual Advice and Consent of both Kingdoms, or the Committees in that Behalf appointed, (fn. 6) who are to have full Power for the same, in case the Houses of the Parliament of England, or the Parliament or Convention of Estates of Scotland, shall not sit. We desire to know, whether that Article extend to any Cessation, Pacification, or Agreement, in Ireland.
The Treaty already delivered to them.
"We did, in Answer to your Lordships Paper of the First of February, upon the Propositions concerning Religion, deliver the Treaty of the 29th of Nov. 1643, mentioned in your Lordships, and not among the Papers for Ireland, to which (fn. 7) it hath no Relation.
King's Commissioners desire to know, if either Kingdom has a Negative, with regard to the Management of the War in Ireland.
"By the Thirteenth Proposition, it is demanded, that an Act be passed, to settle the Prosecution of the War of Ireland in both Houses of Parliament of England, to be managed by joint Advices of both Kingdoms: We desire to know, whether, if the Two Kingdoms shall not agree in their Advice touching the War, each have a Negative Voice; or whether the Scotts Commander in Chief of the Forces in Ireland may manage the War, in such Case, according to his own Discretion.
The Irish War to be managed by a Committee of both Kingdoms; but, in Case of a Disagreement, by the Two Houses here.
"In Answer to your Lordships Second Paper, the Prosecution of the War of Ireland is to be settled in the Two Houses of the Parliament of England; but is to be managed by a joint Committee of both Kingdoms, wherein the Committees of each Kingdom hath a Negative Voice; but, in Cases of Disagreement, the Houses of the Parliament of England may prosecute the War as they shall think fit, observing the Treaty of the 6th of August, 1642, between the Two Houses and the Estates of the Parliament of Scotland, and the Ordinance of the 11th of April, 1644, formerly delivered to your Lordships.
King's Commissioners desire to know, who is to nominate the Lord Deputy and Officers for Ireland, in the Intervals of Parliament.
"By the Twentieth Proposition, in the Intervals of Parliament, the Commissioners for the Militia have Power to nominate the Lord Deputy of Ireland, and other Officers and Judges there. We desire to know, whether that Power be limited to the Commissioners of both Kingdoms, or only to the Commissioners for England; and whether, in such Cases, the Commissioners in Scotland shall vote as single Persons.
The Nomination to be in the Commissioners of the Parliament of England for the Militia.
"The Powers of the Commissioners, in the Intervals of Parliament, to nominate the Lord Deputy of Ireland, and other Officers and Judges there mentioned, in the Twentieth Proposition, being no Matters of joint Concernment, is to be limited to the Commissioners for the Parliament of England, wherein, we conceive, the Commissioners are to vote as single Persons.
King's Commissioners desire to know, whether the Lord Deputy, or the Scots Commander, is to command the Forces in Chief.
"The Articles of the Treaty of the 6th of August giving Power to the Lieutenant of Ireland, when the Scottish Army shall be joined with his Army, to give Instructions to the Scottish Commander in Chief; and the Orders of the Two Houses, of the 9th of March, 1644, and the 11th of April, 1644, appointing the General of the Scottish Forces in Ireland to command in Chief over all the Forces, as well Brittish as Scotts, and both being desired to be enacted; we desire to know, whether the Lieutenant of Ireland shall command the Scottish Forces, or whether the Scottish General shall command all Forces both Brittish and Scotts.
Parliament's Commissioners will answer it, when there is a Lord Deputy appointed.
"In Answer to your Lordships Fourth Paper, we say that the Ordinances of the 9th and 11th of April, 1644, were made when there was no Lieutenant of Ireland; and, when a Lieutenant shall be made by the Approbation of both Houses, according to former Demands in the Seventeenth and Twentieth Proposition, it will be a fitting Time to give further Answer to your Lordships.
King's Commissioners desire to know; if the E. of Leven is to observe the Directions of the Commissioners for the Militia.
"The last Part of the Seventeenth Proposition gives Power to the Commissioners for the Militia of both Kingdoms, as a joint Committee, to order the War of Ireland, according to the Ordinance of the 11th of April; and to order the Militia, and conserve the Peace, of the Kingdom of Ireland; and, by that Act of the 11th of April, the Earl of Leven being appointed Commander in Chief over all the Forces, as well Brittish as Scotts, we desire to know whether he shall be subordinate to these Commissioners for the Militia, and be obliged to observe such Orders as he shall receive from them.
E. of Leven to observe the Orders of the Commissioners.
"The Commissioners of the Militia, desired by the Seventeenth Proposition, are to order the War of Ireland according to the Ordinance of the 11th of April; and the Earl of Leven, being by that Ordinance Commander in Chief of the Forces there, is obliged to observe such Orders as he shall receive from those Commissioners.
Parliament's Commissioners desire no Cessation may be treated of, without Consent of both Houses.
They desire to know, if any Cessation is granted, or on Foot.
"We desire to know, whether any Peace or Cessation of Arms in Ireland be consented unto by His Majesty, and for what Time; and whether any Commission be now on Foot, or other Authority given by His Majesty, for that Purpose.
They desire a Conference, about disposing of the Three remaining Days of the Treaty.
"There being but Three Days left to treat upon the Propositions for Religion, the Militia, and Ireland; and for that your Lordships having given no satisfactory Answer to our Demands concerning them; we therefore now desire to confer with your Lordships, how to dispose of the Three Days yet remaining, that we may receive your Lordships full and clear Answers thereunto.
King's Commissioners will give it; and a full Answer about Ireland.
"We see no Cause why your Lordships should think our Answers upon the Propositions for Religion and the Militia were not satisfactory; and for that of Ireland, we have received many Papers from your Lordships concerning that Business, besides the Propositions themselves; to all which we doubt not to give a full and clear Answer to your Lordships Tomorrow, being the Time assigned, and the last Day for Treaty upon that Subject. After which, we shall be ready to confer with your Lordships of disposing the Remainder of the Time.
Time of delivering the Treaty with the Scots to the King's Commissioners.
"Your Lordships did (fn. 8) deliver the Treaty of the 29th of November, 1642, to us, with the Papers concerning Ireland, on the 3d Day of this Instant February, and not upon the First of February, upon the Propositions concerning Religion.
Paper from the Parliament's Commissioners about it.
"When your Lordships peruse your Papers, you will rest satisfied with our Answer of the 19th of this Instant to your First Paper that Day given to us; for it will appear, by your Lordships Third Paper of the 1st of February, and our Paper given to your Lordships in Answer to it, that the Treaty of the Date at Edinburgh, 29th November, 1643, was delivered to your Lordships on the First of February, upon the Propositions of Religion, and not upon the 3d of February, with the Papers concerning Ireland.
King's Commissioners desire an Answer about the Power of the Lord Deputy and the Scotts Commander in Ireland.
"We desire a full Answer from your Lordships to our Fourth Paper delivered to your Lordships Yesterday, concerning the Power of the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, and the General of the Scotts Forces; your Lordships having proposed to us that the Articles of the Treaty, and the Ordinance of the 11th of April, be enacted by His Majesty; by One of which, the General of the Scotts Forces is to receive Instructions for the managing of the War there from the Lieutenant of Ireland; and by the other (which is the latter), the General of the Scotts Forces is to command in Chief both the Brittish and Scotts Forces; by which it seems the Lieutenant of that Kingdom is to have no Power in the Prosecution of that War.
Scots Commander in Chief there to be under the Lord Deputy, and the War to be managed by the joint Advice of both Kingdoms.
"We do insist upon our former Papers, that the Prosecution of the War in Ireland is to be settled in both Houses of Parliament, and is to be managed by the joint Advice of both Kingdoms, as in those Papers is set down; and when a Lieutenant of Ireland shall be appointed, as is expressed in the Propositions, and if it shall be necessary for the Good of the Service that he and the Commander in Chief of the Scottish Army join, the Commander of the Scottish Army shall receive Instructions from the Lord Lieutenant, or Deputy, or of whom shall have the Chief Government of that Kingdom for the Time, according to the Order which shall be given by the Commissioners of both Kingdoms.
King's Commissioners Arguments, to support His Right to grant the Cessation in Ireland, and to shew the Necessary for it.
"We have already told your Lordships, how far we are from being satisfied by what you have alledged against His Majesty's Power to make a Cessation with the Rebels in Ireland; neither have your Lordships in any Degree answered the important Reasons which induced His Majesty so to do; it being very evident that, by the Cessation there, His Majesty's Protestant Subjects have been preserved and subsisted, which without it they could not have done, the Two Houses forbearing to send any Relief or Supply to them, and His Majesty not being able; and we desire your Lordships to consider, how impossible it was, whilst the War continued in England with such Fierceness and Animosity, by Arms to reduce the Kingdom of Ireland to His Majesty's Obedience; and therefore His Majesty had great Reason to preserve that by a Cessation, which He could not reduce by a War; and we are most confident, that the Necessities (which are not offered as Excuses for, but were the real Grounds of, the Cessation) were very visible to all these in that Kingdom, whose Advices His Majesty ought in Reason to follow, and whose Interests were most concerned, and would not have given such Advice if any other Way could have been found out to preserve them: And we have been credibly informed, that the Committee sent into Ireland (which His Majesty never understood to be sent thither to supply their Necessities, but to observe the Actions of His Majesty's Ministers there, having, in their Journey thither, signed Warrants in their own Names, to apprehend the Persons of Peers of this Realm, and Persons of His Majesty's Privy Council) were never discountenanced there; for His Majesty's Directions, that Persons who were not of His Privy Council there should not be present at those Councils, cannot be interpreted a Discountenance to them in any Thing they ought to do: And we are most assured, that His Majesty sent no Message or Letter to divert the Course of the Officers subscribing for Land, in Satisfaction of their Arrears; but the Soldiers were meerly discouraged from the same, by discerning that, for Want of Supplies, they should not be able to go on with that War: And we do assure your Lordships, that His Majesty doth not believe that the Sums of Money raised for Ireland (which your Lordships do admit to have been made Use of by both Houses of Parliament otherwise than was appointed) are yet satisfied in any Proportion; the greatest Part of the Monies raised upon the Bill for Four Hundred Thousand Pounds, and of the Monies raised upon the charitable Collections, as well as the Adventurers Monies, being employed upon the War here; and if the same were since satisfied, it doth no Ways excuse the diverting of them, when, in the mean Time, that Kingdom suffered by that Division; and that the Fear that other Monies so raised might likewise be misemployed was not a great Reason amongst others, that made His Majesty not consent to that Bill mentioned by your Lordships: And for the Regiments of Horse and Foot, which your Lordships, in your Paper of the 18th of this Month, say were designed for Ireland, though they were employed (fn. 9) otherwise because a Commission could not be obtained for the Lord Wharton who was to command those Forces, it is well known that those Forces were raised before His Majesty's Commission was so much as desired, and then the Commission that was desired should have been independent upon His Majesty's Lieutenant of that Kingdom; and therefore His Majesty had great Reason not to consent to such a Commission; and so the Damages of keeping these Six Pinnaces and the Thousand Land Forces (if any such were) proceeded not from any Default of His Majesty: And for the Provisions seized by His Majesty's Forces, it is notorious that they were seized in the Way to and near Coventry; and that it was not made known to His Majesty that the same were for Ireland till after the Seizure thereof, when it was impossible to recover the same from the Soldiers who had taken them; whereas, if a safe Conduct had been desired from His Majesty, as it ought to have been, the same being to pass through His Quarters, there would have been no Violence or Interruption offered: For the giving the Names of the Persons who subscribed the Letters delivered to your Lordships (the Originals of which have been shewed to you by us), we have given your Lordships a full and reasonable Answer; and if your Lordships will assure us, that the giving their Names to you shall be no Prejudice to the Persons who did subscribe, if any Time any of them shall be found within your Quarters, we will forthwith deliver their Names to you; otherwise we conceive your Lordships cannot but give Credit to what we have said and shewed to you: All which, we hope, hath clearly satisfied your Lordships, that the Cessation with the Rebels was neither unjust or unlawful; and that you will proceed to satisfy us by what Means the War may be managed in Ireland, with probable Hope of the Preservation of His Majesty's Protestant Subjects there, we being very willing to concur with your Lordships in any just and honourable Way for the Good and Settlement of that miserable Kingdom.
Parliament's Commissioners Answer to them.
"We expected that your Lordships would have been fully satisfied, by that we have alledged against His Majesty's Power to make the Cessation with the Rebels in Ireland; and we cannot find those important Reasons which your Lordships mention, to have induced His Majesty so to do, or that thereby His Majesty's Protectant Subjects there have been preserved, or subsisted; but we have made it evident, that this Cessation tended to the utter Destruction of the Protestants in that Kingdom, as we conceive was designed by those who advised His Majesty thereunto; and we observe your Lordships urge, that this Cessation was the only Means for the Subsistence of the Protestants there, when it cannot be denied that very many of the Protestants, in Ulster, Munster, and Connaght, have yet subsisted, although they have refused to submit to that Cessation, and opposed the same as the Means intended for their Ruin; and we do affirm unto your Lordships, that the Two Houses of Parliament have been so far from failing to supply His Majesty's good Subjects in that Kingdom, that, although His Majesty's Forces have as much as in their Power endeavoured to prevent the same, and have taken to themselves that which was provided for those whom your Lordships mention to have been in so great Want and Extremity, yet the Two Houses, not discouraged thereby, have constantly sent great Proportions of all necessary Supplies unto the Protestants there, whereby they have subsisted; and have very lately sent thither, and have already provided to be speedily sent after, in Money, Victual, Cloaths, Ammunition, and other Necessaries, to the Value of Sevenscore Thousand Pounds; and they have not desired any other Provision from His Majesty but what He was well abled to afford herein, only His Assistance and Consent in joining with the Two Houses of Parliament, for the better enabling them in the Prosecution of that War; and so far from apprehending any Impossibility of reducing that Kingdom during the unhappy Distractions here, that, although many of the Forces provided by the Two Houses for that End were diverted, and employed against the Parliament, to the increasing of our Distractions, yet the Protestants in Ireland have subsisted, and do still subsist; and we have just Cause to believe, that, if this Cessation had not been obtained by the Rebels (and that in the Time of their greatest Wants), and that those Forces had not been withdrawn, they might in Probability have subdued those bloody Rebels, and finished the War in that Kingdom: For the pretended Necessities offered as Grounds of this Cessation, we have already given your Lordships (we hope) clear Information; for the Persons (fn. 10) whose Advice His Majesty followed therein, your Lordships have not thought fit to make them known unto us, and we cannot conceive their Interest in that Kingdom to be of such Consideration as is by your Lordships supposed; but we know very well, that many Persons of all Sorts have forsaken that Kingdom, rather than they would submit unto this Cessation; and great Numbers of considerable Persons, and other Protestants, yet remaining there, have opposed, and still do oppose, that Cessation, as the visible Means of their Destruction. The Two Houses sent their Committees into Ireland, for the better supplying and encouraging of the Armies there, and to take an Account of the State of the War, to be represented hither, that what should be found defective might be supplied: What Warrants there issued, we are ignorant of; but are well assured, that what they did was in Pursuance of their Duty, and for Advancement of the Public Service, and suppressing of that horrid Rebellion; and we cannot but still affirm, they were discountenanced and commanded from the Council there, where the Prosecution of that War was to be managed; and that it was declared from His Majesty, that He disapproved of the Subscriptions of the Officers of the Army, by Means whereof that Course was diverted. Concerning the Monies raised for Ireland, we have in our former Paper given your Lordships a full and just Answer; and we are sorry the same cannot receive Credit: Those Monies raised upon charitable Collections, we do positively affirm, were only employed to those Ends for which they were given; and we cannot but wonder the contrary should be suggested. We are confident, the Commission desired by the Two Houses for the Lord Wharton (and which your Lordships acknowledge was denied) was only such as they conceived most necessary for Advancement of that Service, and the Denial thereof proved very prejudicial thereunto: And we must (fn. 11) again inform your Lordships, that it was well known, that at the Time when the Goods were seized by His Majesty's Forces, as your Lordships alledge, near Coventry, that the same were then carrying for the Supply of the Protestants in Ireland; and some other Provisions, made and sent for the same Purpose, were likewise seized and taken away by some of His Majesty's Forces, as we have been credibly informed not without His Majesty's own Knowledge and Direction. Your Lordships may believe, that those who signed the Letters mentioned in your Papers have done nothing but what they may well justify; and if the same be well done, they need not fear to give an Account thereof, nor your Lordships to suppose that, if they come within our Quarters, they shall be otherwise dealt withall than shall be agreeable to Justice. Upon the whole Matter, notwithstanding the Allegations, Pretences, and Excuses, offered by your Lordships, for the Cessation made with the Rebels in Ireland, we are clearly satisfied that the same was altogether unjust, unlawful, and destructive to His Majesty's good Subjects, and of Advantage to none but the Popish bloody Rebellion in that Kingdom; and therefore we still earnestly insist, as we conceive ourselves in Conscience and Duty obliged, upon our former Demands concerning Ireland, which we conceive most just and honourable for His Majesty to consent unto. We know no other Means to propound more probable for the reducing of (fn. 12) the Rebels there; and these being granted, we shall chearfully proceed in the managing of that War, and doubt not but, by God's Blessing, we shall speedily settle that Kingdom in their due Obedience to His Majesty.
King's Commissioners Answer, about the Cessation being granted, or a Treaty on Foot in Ireland.
"To your Lordships Sixth and Seventh Papers delivered to us Yesterday, concerning any Peace or Cessation of Arms in Ireland; your Lordships well know, that (fn. 13) long after the War begun in this Kingdom, and for Want of a Supply from hence, that a Cessation hath been made, with His Majesty's Consent; and we conceive that the same expires in March next, and we are consident there is no Peace made there: But for the making a Peace, or a further Cessation, we can give no further Answer, till we may know whether there may be a blessed Peace made in England; since, if the miserable Civil Wars shall continue in this Kingdom, we cannot conceive it possible for His Majesty by Force to reduce the Kingdom of Ireland, or to preserve His Protestant Subjects there, without a Peace or Cessation.
Parliament's Commissioners desire a clear Answer, whether any Treaty is on Foot in Ireland.
"We conceive your Lordships have given no Answer to us, whether any Commission be now on Foot, or other Authority given by His Majesty, for any Peace or Cessation of Arms in Ireland, other than that which determines in March next; nor to our Desire that no Cessation of Arms or Peace in Ireland may be treated upon or concluded, without Consent of both Houses of the Parliament of England; nor do we understand why your Lordships should delay your Answer herein till the Peace of England be concluded, since it hath been clearly manifested to your Lordships, by the true Meaning of the Acts passed by His Majesty this Parliament, that His Majesty can make no Peace nor Cessation without the Consent of the Two Houses; and that your Lordships satisfactory Answer to this, and our other Demands concerning Ireland, will much conduce to the settling the Peace of this Kingdom: We therefore again desire your Lordships full and clear Answer to the Particulars expressed in our Sixth and Seventh Papers, Yesterday delivered to your Lordships.
King's Commissioner Reasons, why the Management of the War in Ireland should not be in the Two Houses here, by the joint Advice of both Kingdoms.
"Having given your Lordships clear Reasons why the Cessation which hath been made in Ireland is not in Reason or Justice to be made void, and the making void thereof (if the same might be done) is not, nor cannot be, for the Benefit or Advantage of His Majesty's Protestant Subjects in that Kingdom, so long as the unhappy Wars in this Kingdom continue; to the Part of your Lordships First Paper concerning Ireland, for the Prosecution of the War there to be settled in both Houses of the Parliament of England, to be managed by the joint Advice of both Kingdoms, and His Majesty to assist; we say,
"That appears by the other Papers delivered to us by your Lordships, as the Articles of the Sixth of August, and the Ordinances of the 11th of April, 9th of March, and otherwise, that the Intent is, that that War shall be managed by a joint Committee of both Kingdoms, and that the Committee of each Kingdom shall have a Negative Voice; and consequently it is very probable, that, upon Difference of Opinion between them, that War may stand still, or, to the utter Ruin of His Majesty's Subjects there, be absolutely dissolved: For whereas your Lordships say, that, in case of such Disagreement, the Houses of the Parliament of England may prosecute the War as they shall think fit, observing the Treaty of the 6th of August, 1642, and the Ordinance of the 11th of April; your Lordships well know, that, by that Treaty and that Ordinance, the Two Houses of the Parliament of England alone cannot prosecute that War, that Ordinance of the 11th of April expressly making the Earl of Leven, the Scotts General, Commander in Chief of all Forces in that Kingdom both Brittish and Scotts, without any Reference to His Majesty, or His Lieutenant of that Kingdom, and directing that the War shall be managed by the Committee of both Kingdoms, without any other Reference to the Two Houses of the Parliament of England; and therefore we cannot consent that such an Act of Parliament be passed, for the Confirmation of that Treaty, or the Ordinance of the 11th of April, as your Lordships propose, by reason thereby all His Majesty's Authority would be wholly taken away in that Kingdom, and in Truth that whole Kingdom be thereby delivered into the Hands of His Majesty's Subjects of Scotland, which, we conceive, is neither just, prudent, or honourable to done: And we are of Opinion, that it is not agreeable to His Majesty's Honour, or the Justice or Protection which He owes to His Subjects of (fn. 14) His Kingdom of Ireland, to put the Nomination of His Lieutenant and Judges of that Kingdom out of Himself, and to commit the whole Power of that Kingdom to others; and to bind Himself to pass all such Acts of Parliament as any Time hereafter shall be presented to Him, for raising of Monies, and other Things necessary for Prosecution of the War in that Kingdom, which your Lordships say, in your Paper of the 9th of this Instant, you intend by those Words ["His Majesty to assist"], in your First Paper: And we conceive it cannot be expected that His Majesty should consent to an Act of Parliament for Prosecution of the War in Ireland, to be managed by the joint Advice of the Houses of Parliament here and the Estates of the Parliament of Scotland, so long as the War in this Kingdom shall continue.
"For these and many other Reasons, we conceive, it (fn. 15) doth appear to your Lordships, that the Propositions, as they are delivered to us by your Lordships, are by no Means fit to be consented to; and therefore we desire your Lordships to make other Propositions to us, which may be for the Preservation and Relief of his Majesty's Protestant Subjects there, and for the Settlement of that Kingdom, in which we shall very readily concur; and we shall be very willing that the Business of that Kingdom shall, after a Peace settled in this, be taken into Consideration, and or dered as His Majesty and both Houses of Parliament here shall think fit.
Parliament's Commissioners Answer to them.
"We cannot understand how, out of any of the Papers, Articles, or Ordinances, delivered by us unto your Lordships, there should be a Ground for your Opinion, that, upon any Difference between the Committees or Commanders employed about the War of Ireland, the War should stand still, or be dissolved; nor do we find that the Ordinance of the 11th of April can produce any such Inconveniency as your Lordships do imagine; nor doth the making the Earl of Leven Commander of the Scottish and Brittish Forces, and the settling of the Prosecution of the War of Ireland in the Two Houses of the Parliament of England, to be managed by the joint Advice of both Kingdoms, take away the Relation to His Majesty's Authority, or of the Two Houses of Parliament, or of the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland; for, in the First Place, His Majesty's Consent is humbly desired, and the whole Power is derived from Him; only the Execution of it is put into such a Way, and the General is to carry on the War according to the Orders he shall receive from the Committee of both Kingdoms; and, in case of Disagreement in the Committee, the Two Houses of Parliament are to prosecute the War, as is expressed in our Answer to your Lordships Second Paper of the 19th of February; and when there shall be a Lieutenant of Ireland, and that he shall join with the Commander in Chief of the Scottish Army, the said Commander is to receive Instructions from him, according to the Orders of the Commissioners of both Kingdoms, as we have said in our Answer to your Lordships Second Paper of this Day; nor doth the Earl of Leven to be General any more take away the Power of the Two Houses, than if he were a Native of this Kingdom; or is there any Part of the Kingdom of Ireland delivered over into the Hands of His Majesty's Subjects of the Kingdom of Scotland, who do only join with their Counsels and Forces, for carrying on the War, and reducing that Kingdom to His Majesty's Obedience; and we conceive it most conducing for the Good of His Majesty's Service, and of that Kingdom, that the Lieutenant and Judges there should be nominated by the Two Houses of Parliament, as is expressed in the Twentieth Proposition, who will recommend none to be employed by His Majesty, in Places of so great Trust, but such whose known Abilities and Integrity shall make them worthy of them, which must needs be best known to a Parliament; nor are they to have any greater Power conferred upon them, by the granting of this Proposition, than they have had who did formerly execute those Places; and we know no Reason why your Lordships should make Difficulty of His Majesty's consenting to such Acts as shall be presented unto Him, for raising Monies and other Necessaries from the Subject, which is without any Charge to Himself, and is for no other End but the settling of the true Protestant Religion in that Kingdom, and reducing it to His Majesty's Obedience, for which we hold nothing too dear that can be employed by us: And we cannot but wonder, that your Lordships should make the Prosecution of that War of Ireland, which is but to execute Justice upon those bloody Rebels who have broken all Laws of God and Man, their Faith, their Allegiance, all Bonds of Charity, all Rules of Humanity and human Society; who have butchered so many Thousands of innocent Christians, Men, Women, and Children, whose Blood cried up to Heaven for Vengeance, so many of His Majesty's Subjects, whose Lives He is bound to require at their Hands that spilt them, and to do Justice upon them, to put away innocent Blood from Himself, His Posterity, the whole Land. These execrable Antichristian Rebels, who have a Covenant with Hell to destroy the Gospel of Christ, and have taken up Arms to destroy the Protestant Religion, and set up Popery, to rend away One of His Majesty's Kingdoms, and to deliver it up into the Hands of Strangers, for which they have Negotiations with Spaine and other States. A War which must prevent so much Mischief, do so much Good, offer up such an acceptable Sacrifice to the great and just God of Heaven, who groans under so much Wickedness to lie so long unpunished; a War which must reduce that Kingdom unto His Majesty's Obedience, the most glorious Work that this Kingdom can undertake; that the Prosecution of such a War your Lordships should make to depend upon any other Condition, that the Distractions of these Kingdoms should be laid as Impediment unto it, and there should be any Thought, any Thing, which should give those Rebels Hope of Impunity, if our Miseries continue; whereas, according to Christian Reason, and the ordinary Course of God's Providence, nothing can be more probable to continue our Miseries, and increase our Judgements, than the least Connivance in this Kind. What can be said or imagined, should be any Inducement to it? We hope not to make Use of their Help and Assistance to strengthen any Party here, to bring over such Actors of barbarous Cruelties to exercise the same in these Kingdoms. We desire your Lordships to consider these Things; and that nothing may remain with you, which may hinder His Majesty from giving His Consent to all good Means for the reducing of Ireland, according to what is desired by us in our Propositions.
Parliament's Commissioners have sent the King's Letter for an Addition of Time to the Treaty to the Two Houses.
"Your Lordships Paper of the 14th of this Month, for an Addition of Time for this Treaty, together with His Majesty's Letter concerning the same, were sent by us to the Houses of Parliament; who, as we have already acquainted your Lordships, have declared, that, if they shall be satisfied in the good Progress of the Treaty upon the Propositions concerning Religion, the Militia, and Ireland, will give Time for the Treaty upon the Propositions by His Majesty; but, further than this, have not as yet signified their Pleasures to us.
King's Commissioners desire to know, if any further Time is granted for it by the Houses.
"By our Paper delivered to your Lordships the 14th of this Month, we moved your Lordships to endeavour an Addition of Time for this Treaty after the Expiration of the Days limited for the same, upon the Reasons mentioned in His Majesty's Letter, which Letter we then delivered to your Lordships; whereunto your Lordships then returned Answer, That you would send Copies of His Majesty's Letter, and of our Paper, to the Houses of Parliament; and, after Signification of their Pleasure, you will give further Answer. We now desire to know, whether there be an Addition of Time for this Treaty, after the Expiration of the Days limited for the same, upon the Reasons mentioned in His Majesty's said Letter; and what Time may be added.
King's Commissioners desire to employ the Two remaining Days of the Treaty about the Propositions for Religion, the Militia, and Ireland; that the King may come to the Parliament, the Armies being first disbanded.
"Having now spent (18) Days with your Lordships, in the Treaty upon Religion, the Militia, and Ireland; and, besides the present Satisfaction we have given your Lordships in those Particulars, we having offered that further Consideration and Order be taken therein by His Majesty and the Two Houses of Parliament; and your Lordships having proposed many important Things, in the said several Particulars, to be framed, settled, and disposed, by the Two Houses, before a full Agreement can be established; we propose to your Lordships, whether the Two Days remaining may not be best spent, towards the satisfying of your Lordships in those Three Propositions, and the procuring a speedy blessed Peace, upon finding out some Expedient for His Majesty's Repair to Westm. that so all Differences may be composed, and the poor Kingdom to be restored to its ancient Happiness and Security; and to that Purpose (if your Lordships shall think fit) we are willing to treat with your Lordships concerning the best Means whereby (all Armies being First disbanded) His Majesty may, with Honour, Freedom, and Safety, be present with His Two Houses of Parliament at Westm. To which Two Particulars, that is, first concerning the disbanding all Armies, and for His Majesty's speedy Repair, and Residence, with Honour, Freedom, and Safety, at Westm. we shall, if your Lordships think fit, apply ourselves; and accordingly To-morrow will be ready to deliver to your Lordships some Propositions upon that Subject; and, if your Lordships shall concur with us herein, we hope it will be a good Inducement to procure an Addition of Time to this Treaty, according to His Majesty's Proposition in His late Letter to us, which we delivered to your Lordships.
Parliament's Commissioners will proceed in the Propopositions for Religion; and will procure further Time for the Treaty.
"We shall, according to mutual Agreement between His Majesty and the Two Houses of the Parliament of England, and the Commissioners for the Parliament of Scotland, treat these Two remaining Days upon the Three Propositions, for Religion, the Militia, and Ireland; and shall be glad to receive Satisfaction in them from your Lordships, as the best Expedient for procuring a speedy and blessed Peace, that the Armies may be disbanded, and the Happiness of His Majesty's Presence may again be enjoyed by those, who have nothing more in their Prayers and Endeavours than, by His Majesty's Conjunction with His Parliament, to see all those sad Differences composed, and these distracted Kingdoms restored to their ancient Happiness and Security: Accordingly we shall be ready to begin again Tomorrow upon the Proposition for Religion, and receive what your Lordships will propose; and, being satisfied upon that and the other Two Propositions, we are confident we shall have further Time given us to treat upon such other Particulars as shall be necessary for the attaining of those Ends which we all desire.
L. Viscount Say & Seale.
Answer from the H. C.
Order for all Officers and Soldiers to repair to their Colours.
"It is this Day Ordered, by the Lords and Commons in this present Parliament assembled, That all Officers and Soldiers (other than such as shall have Leave or Licence from the Lord General, or other Commander in Chief) shall and do, within Eight and Forty Hours after Notice of this Ordinance, upon Pain of Death, repair to their several Colours; and all Officers are hereby enjoined to take special Care to keep their Soldiers together, as they will answer the contrary at their extreamest Peril: And, for the more speedy and effectual Execution of this Ordinance, it is further Ordained, That the several Committees of the several and respective Counties, Cities, and Places, shall, immediately upon Receipt hereof, cause the same to be published in every Market Town, and Parish Church, within their respective Limits: And it is further Ordained, by the Authority aforesaid, That the Committees and Deputy Lieutenants of the several Counties aforesaid, or any One of them, shall apprehend every Soldier, who, after Publication hereof, shall not repair to their Colours according to this Ordinance, and commit them to Prison and, with all convenient Speed, take Order that every Person so committed may be sent to his Commander in Chief, to the Intent they may be proceeded against according to the Course of War; and every Person that, after Publication of this Ordinance, shall willingly harbour or entertain any Officer or Soldier that hath or shall depart from his Colours (without the Pass of his superior Officer) shall, for every Day that he shall so harbour or entertain, forfeit the Sum of Ten Shillings, to be levied by the Warrant of the said Committees, or any Two of them, by Distress and Sale of the Offender's Goods; and the Committees are hereby required and enjoined to levy the said Fines accordingly."
Earl of Clare and Elsworth, about a Building.
Mansell and Harris.
Sir R. Sharpey's Ordinance.
Message to the H. C. for a Conference about the Treaty.
Message from the H. C. for a Conference about it.
Message to the H C. for a Conference, about some Papers from the Commissioners for the Treaty.
Heads for this Conference.
The Earl of Manchester is to manage this Conference, and to read the Letter and the Four last Papers to them; and afterwards to let them know, "That their Lordships, considering this Paper may carry some specious Shew of the King's Desire of settling a Peace by the disbanding of all Armies, and coming to His Parliament; though my Lords do not conceive any Hopes of receiving Satisfaction in their Desires by this Treaty, yet they think it fit that the Committee of both Kingdoms do meet To-morrow in the Afternoon, and consider of something that they may offer unto the Houses upon this Paper on Monday Morning; and that, in the mean Time, Order be sent to the Commissioners at Uxbridge, to stay there until they receive further Orders from the Houses; and further to desire, that they would consider whether the safe Conduct do expire on Monday next or not."
Letter from the Commissioners for the Treaty, with Papers about the Propositions for a Peace.
"We have this Day received several Papers; One of them, with our Answer to it, we have herewith sent; the others are concerning Ireland, and are very long, to which we are preparing Answers; and, when they are finished, we shall present both unto your Lordships, to whom we desire to give an Account of all the Proceedings of
King's Commissioners desire an Answer to the King's Propositions for a Cessation, and to know if any longer Time is granted for the Treaty.
"By our Paper delivered to your Lordships 1 Februarii, we did desire to know, whether your Lordships have any Instructions concerning His Majesty's Propositions for settling a safe and well-grounded Peace; and, by our Paper of the Third of February, we did desire to know, whether your Lordships had received any Instructions concerning that Proposition of His Majesty for a Cessation; and, if your Lordships had not received any, that you would endeavour to procure Authority to treat thereupon; and, by our Paper of the 10th of February, we did desire to know, whether your Lordships had received any Instructions concerning His Majesty's Propositions, that we might prepare ourselves to treat upon them when your Lordships should think fit; and, by our Paper delivered to your Lordships 14th February, upon Directions received from His Majesty, we moved your Lordships, that you would endeavour to procure an Addition of Time for this Treaty, after the Expiration of the Days limited for the same, upon the Reasons mentioned in His Majesty's Letter, which Letter we then delivered to your Lordships; and, by our Paper delivered to your Lordships the 20th of this Month, we moved your Lordships to endeavour an Addition of Time for this Treaty after the Expiration of the Days limited for the same, upon the Reasons mentioned in His Majesty's said Letter; to which we have not [ (fn. 16) received full Answers, nor have we yet] had any Notice from your Lordships, whether the Two Houses of Parliament have given any further Time for this Treaty. And having hitherto, according to the Order prescribed us, treated only upon the Three First Heads, of Religion, the Militia, and Ireland, and the Twenty Days expiring this Day, we again desire to know, whether there is any Direction of Time granted (fn. 16) for this Treaty, our safe Conduct being but for Two Days longer.
Parliament's Commissioners Answer to it.
"Your Lordships Papers, of the First, Third, and Tenth of February, whether we had any Instructions concerning His Majesty's Propositions, and Power to treat for a Cessation, as also your Papers of the Fourteenth and Twentieth of February, concerning His Majesty's Letter of an Addition of Time to this Treaty, with your Lordships Desire thereupon, have been by us sent up to both Houses of Parliament, from Time to Time, as we received them, together with our Answer given to them; and, in our Answers, we have, from Time to Time, declared to your Lordships, that, when the Houses shall be satisfied in the good Progress of the Treaty, upon their Propositions concerning Religion, Militia, and Ireland, they will give an Addition of Time for the Treaty: And we do conceive, that, if your Lordships Answers to our Demand concerning Religion, the Militia, and Ireland, had been such as to have given Satisfaction in the good Progress of this Treaty, mutually consented for Twenty Days upon the said Propositions, we should have before this been enabled with Power to continue the Treaty, as well upon His Majesty's Propositions as the rest of the Propositions. But, your Lordships having not given full and satisfactory Answers concerning Religion, the Militia, and Ireland, you cannot, for the Reasons abovementioned, expect an Addition of Time; neither have we received any Instructions to continue this Treaty longer than the Twenty Days, of which this is the last. And as for your Lordships safe Conduct, we conceive the Three Sundays last past being not (fn. 17) "