Journal of the House of Lords: Volume 7, 1644. Originally published by His Majesty's Stationery Office, London, 1767-1830.
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DIE Sabbati, 5 die Julii.
Viscount Say & S.
Message to the H. C. for an Answer about Hancock.
Message from the H. C. for L. Savill to be examined by a Committee of their House.
Col. Morgan to have Col. Massey's Regiment.
Resolved, That Colonel Thomas Morgan, Governor of Glouc. shall be Colonel of the Foot Regiment that was formerly Colonel Masseye's, and Captain of a Troop of Horse; and that the Committee of both Kingdoms do grant him Commissions accordingly.
Answer from the H. C.
Mr. Doctor Aylett and Mr. Doctor Heath, sent to the House of Commons with the Petition of the Widows of Commanders slain in the Parliament's Service; (fn. 1) and that the House of Commons will give them Relief according to their Rights.
Message to them, that the Lords leave it to L. Savill, whether he will be examined by their Committee.
After long Debate in the Business concerning the Lord Savill, the House Resolved as followeth; which was sent to the House of Commons, for their Concurrence, by Mr. Serjeant Finch and Mr. Dr. Heath; (videlicet,)
"The Lords having received a Message from the House of Commons this Morning, concerning the examining of the Lord Savil of some Matters that concerns Members of that House; their Lordships do leave it to the Lord Savill, to be examined as the House of Commons do desire, if he shall think fit."
Message from the H. C. about the following Particulars.
Report of the Conference about Carlisle.
Committee to meet with One of the H. C. to prepare Instructions for Commissioners to be sent to Scotland.
Lords Commitees appointed by this House, to meet with a proportionable Number of the House of Commons, to prepare Instructions, to be sent with the Commissioners of both Houses to the Parliament of Scotland; (videlicet,)
E. of Northumb'land.
L. Viscount Say & S.
Resolved, by this House, That Two Lords shall be sent, with a proportionable Number of the House of Commons, to the Parliament of Scotland, concerning Carlile; and such Instructions as both Houses shall think fit, for the better settling and continuing the Union between the Two Kingdoms; but the Lords are not yet both named.
Message to the H. C. about it; and for Devereux to be Rector of Gateshead.
That the Lords have named Eight of their House, to meet with a proportionable Number of the House of Commons; the Quorum to be Three of their Lordships; to meet this Afternoon, in the Prince's Lodgings, to prepare Instructions, to be sent, with Commissioners of both Houses, to the Parliament of Scotland; and that the said House would appoint a proportionable Number of their Members accordingly.
Capt. St. Barbe, to be Governor of South'ton.
Order to raise 500 Horse, in the associated Counties of Essex, Suffolk, Norfolk, &c.
"Ordered, by the Lords and Commons in Parliament assembled, That the several Proportions of Horse here under-written shall be forthwith raised by the several Counties, to be employed at Grantham, or thereabouts, for the Defence of the associated Counties:
Committees added to the Northern Association.
"Ordered, by the Lords and Commons in Parliament assembled, That Sir Henry Vane Senior, Mr. Holles, Sir Martin Lyster, Mr. Thom. Grantham, Sir Will'm Armyn, and Mr. Robert Fenwick, be added to the Committee of the Northern Association; and to have full Power for the Military Affairs in that Association, to all Intents and Purposes, as if they had been nominated in the said Ordinance lately passed for the Northern Association."
Votes from the H. C. for removing the Scots Garrison from Carlisle, and putting an English One there; to communicate this to the Scots Commissioners here; and to send Commissioners to the Parliament of Scotland about it.
"Resolved, c. That Committees of both Houses be forthwith sent to the Parliament of Scotl. with this Resolution concerning Carlile, and such other Instructions as both Houses shall think fit, for the better settling and continuing the Union between the Two Kingdoms."
"Resolved, &c. That the Lords be desired to name a Committee of the Lords House, to meet with a proportionable Number of this House, to prepare Instructions, to be sent with the Committees of both Houses to the Parliament of Scotland."
"Resolved, &c. That in case the Lords do agree that a Committee of both Houses shall be forthwith sent to the Parliament of Scotland, that the Lords be desired to consider of, and name, the Number and Persons of the Lords House, that are to be sent thither."
Paper from the Scots Commissioners, to shew the Necessity of continuing a Scots Garrison in Carlisle.
"Seing Carlile is now reduced unto the Obedience of the Kinge and Parliament, wee are desired, by the Committee of Estates of the Parliament of Scotland residinge with the Scottish Army, to represent, by your Lordships and these Gentlemen, to the Honorable Houses of Parliament, the Necessity of contynuing a Scottish Garrison there for the present; not only upon the Reasons expressed in our Paper of the 24th of June, given in to the Houses, which they have seene and considered, but also upon the Ground of mutuall Confidence, against all Tentations, Jealousies, and sinister Suspitions to the contrary, which prevayleth with them as much as any other Reasons whatsoever; and without which they see not a possible Way how this Warr can be followed to any good Purpose.
"That their Army is now, according to the Desires of the Parliament, upon their March towards Worcester, neerer the Enemy, and further from Home, with Resolution to spend their Bloud, and hazard their Lives, in the Common Cause, and for the Publique Service of this Kingdome, which they esteeme to be the greatest Demonstration of Trust and Confidence upon their Part; and therfore that they cannot at such a Time expect that the Houses of Parliament will distrust them with the keepinge of a Garrison upon the Borders of Scotland, meerely for the securinge the Peace of their native Kingdome, and what at Home is deerest unto them, in such a Place as hath infested that Kingdome formerly since the Begining of this Warre, and may still be an Inlett of Troubles unto them, while they are not free from Troubles in the North.
"If any ungrounded Suspicion or Jealousy, against their mutuall Confidence, and the Experience of their former Integrity, shall possess any Man's Mynde, they make Offer of whatsoever just and reasonable Security can be devised, for deliveringe up of Carlile, to be disposed upon according to the Treaty, so soone as it shall please God to put an happy End to this Warre.
"And they desier it may be considered, that their Trust and Considence hath made them (contrary to the Practise of Armies in such Cases) more carefulle and forward to advaunce in this Publique Service, then to trouble the Houses of Parliament with solliciting or providing for Townes or Forts for their Safty and Retreate, being willinge to cast theirselves upon Divine Providence, and the Faithfullnes of their Brethren, and desiringe only that which they conceive to be necessary for the Quietnes of their owne Myndes from Daingers behinde them, and for the Security of their native Kingdome, in the Midst of so many other Troubles as they are exercised with at this Time by the Pleasure of God.
"Concerning the Proceedings of the Forces aboute Carlile, and the Conditions graunted by them for the rendringe of it, although wee have not received Information aboute all the Perticulers, yet wee are acquainted with so much as may make us confident to give Satisfaction, and therfore to desier that the Honorable Houses of Parliament may suspend their Judgement till the full Information cominge to our Hands may be comunicated to them."
Letter from the Committee in Cumberland, that they are going to treat with Sir T. Glemham, to surrender Carlisle.
"At our coming to Penrith in Cumberland on Saturday last, we understood by Sir Wilfred Lawson, that Sir Thomas Glemham and the rest in Carlyle had an Inclination to treat about Carlyle; but they made great Doubt and Scruple what Assurance they might have, Conditions should be performed, in case any should be agreed on: To this we advised Sir W'fred Lawson to return Answer, That, if he pleased to send out a Gentleman of Trust and Quality, we should endeavour to give Satisfaction in that Particular; or, if they pleased, they should have a Pass for him, to go to the Earl of Leven, my Lord Fairfax, and the Committee of both Kingdoms, that so the least Shadow of any Scruple or Doubt in that respect might be fully removed. We earnestly desire a speedy Dispatch in this Particular; and we shall not be wanting on our Parts to prosecute this Business to Effect.
Their Letter to the E. of Leven, on the same Subject; and that they would take Care of the
Entertainment of the Scots Forces in these Parts.
whether they had any Disposition to treat or no), that the main Difficulty which stuck with Sir Thomas Glemham was, to know what Security he might have, for the Performance of Conditions, in case he should treat: To which, Answer was returned, That, if he sent any Gentleman out to us, we should endeavour his Satisfaction in that Particular; with which we did acquaint the Lord Kircudbright (who we met Yesterday at Dalston) and the rest of the Commanders of your Forces about Carlile, from whom we have received some Propositions for the Maintenance of your People about Carlile; and have appointed the Committees of Cumberland and Westm'land to be with us at Penrith on Wednesday next, when we shall endeavour (the best we can) to get some Accommodation for your Forces, until the Parliament shall appoint some further Order; and in the mean Time we thought fit to send this Gentleman, Captain Hudson, along with Captain Phillipson and Major Macburney, to know your Excellency's Pleasure, and the Committee of both Kingdoms, for the Satisfaction of Sir Thomas Glemham and the rest in Carlile, before there be the least Entry of any Treaty whatsoever with them: And we intreat as speedy a Dispatch as may be; and a safe Return of these Messengers, for whom we have undertaken; and rest
"I received yours of the 17th and of the 18th of this Instant, by which I perceive your Care and Dilligence for a Way of present Enterteynment of our Forces aboute Carlile, hoping for the Contynuance thereof untill the further Declaration of the Pleasure of the Honorable Houses of Parliament; beinge confident that it was never their Meaning that those Forces should be reducted to such Extreamities, as neither to have Pay nor Enterteynment. As for a Treaty and Capitulation with the Towne of Carlile, if Captain Phillipson had come hither, I should have better knowne what Answer to have retorned to his Propositions; the Perticulers whereof I know not, and so can make no Reply to them. But I trust by this Time you know my Desires from Lieutenant Gennerall Lesley, whome I sent with Power and Instructions for mannadging of that Busines; beinge confident of a faire Complyance and good Agreement betwixt you and him, which is very much desired by
Letter from the Committee at York, to the Committee in Cumberland, about the same.
"This Day Captain Phillipson, Captain Hudson, and the Scotts Major, came to us, whose joint Discourse was, That Captain Phillipson came from Sir Thomas Glemham at Carlile, to know, That if in case he should be inforced to surrender that Town, then to whom, and upon what Conditions, that he might rely upon. Captain Phillipson demanded some Writing under our Hand to Sir Tho. Glemham; but we see no Cause to satisfy him therein, in regard we only received a verbal Message from him. We have written to the Earl of Leven, desiring his Opinion and Advice in this Business; which as soon as we receive, we shall acquaint you with it. We only told Captain Phillipson, that what shall be undertaken by us shall be faithfully performed. Here inclosed we send a Copy of the Articles for the Rendition of this City; and remain
E. of Leven's Answer to L. Fairfax.
(fn. 2) "For the Right Honourable the Lord Fairfax.
"I wish the Messinger who came from Sir Thomas Glemham had come forward to this Place, by whome I might have knowne the Perticulers of the Message more clereely then I can understand by your Lordship's Letter, which mentioneth a strange Offer; whereunto if your Lordship know not what Reply to make, I can farr less know, who have not spoken with the Messinger: Howsoever, I have sent Liuetenant Gennerall Lesley, with Power from me, concerning that Treaty and Capitulation with the Towne of Carlyle; trusting there shall be such a Complyance and Agreement betwixt him and the Commissioners of the Parliament upon the Place, as shall give Satisfaction to all who are concerned in this Busines. And so I remaine
"I must entreate your Lordship, because there be some Lords and others coming heere to the Committee at the Army, and wee will possibly remove at a farther Distance, that your Lordship would afford them a safe Convoy, as they shall acquaint yow."
From the Committee at York, to the Committee in Cumberland.
"This Day my Lord Fairfax and Sir Will'm Constable began their Journey towards London; and this Evening, about Eight of the Clock, a Letter directed to the Lord Fairfax, whereof the inclosed is a true Copy, was delivered to me by Captain Hudson; which I presumed to open, conceiving it to be an Answer to the Letter my Lord Fairfax, Sir Wm. Constable, and myself, writ to the Earl of Leven, concerning the Message delivered to us by Captain Phillipson. I have now writ to my Lord Fairfax at Hull, and sent him that Letter. Captain Hudson will inform you, that, before he came to the Lord Leven, he had dispatched Lieutenant General Lesley with Capitulations concerning Carlile. I suppose my Lord Fairfax, and the rest of the Committee here for the War, will much resent their Neglect by the Earl of Leven, in his not acquainting them with any Particulars of the Capitulation; but it may be you have received therein more Satisfaction, which I heartily wish. I shall only further trouble you with my Opinion, that the Pretermission of us is not so dishonourable to us, as the Rendition of Carlile to the Scotts will be dangerous, in regard of the great Discontent of all the North Parts therewith; which I submit to your further Debate and better Judgement, and remain
From the Committee in Cumberland, to L. G. Lesley, protesting against any Treaty with Sir T. Glemham, for Surrender of Carlisle, that is concluded without their Consent and Privity.
According to your Appointment by Captain Stodard, we came to Hescatt, to have met you, this Day, at One of the Clock; but, within less than One Mile of that Place we met a Servant of yours, with your Letter, That you had made an Appointment with Sir Tho. Glemham, to meet with him about that Hour; and we cannot but think it very strange, that you should so frequently, and those under your Commands, have Intercourse with our Adversaries, without acquainting us in the least Measure with your Agitations; when we have acquainted my Lord Kircudbright with all our Proceedings ever since our coming into these Parts, and did expect the same Course should have been continued still: But, since it is not, we must let you know, in the Name of both Houses of Parliament (who have sent us here at present to supply the Place of their General in these Northern Parts), that whatsoever is done concerning the Town of Carlile without our Knowledge and Consent, we do hereby protest against it, and desire you to advise well of the Treaty betwixt both Nations, and the solemn National Covenant, that there be nothing wanting on your Part (as there shall be none on ours) to preserve that mutual Concord, Correspondency, and good Agreement, which all honest and true-hearted Men, and Men of Honour, will labour to preserve to their Lives End. We have sent Captain Hudson, to satisfy Sir Tho. Glemham, that, if he treat with us concerning the Delivery of Carlile upon honourable and just Terms, he shall be sure to have them observed by us, and as far as the Parliament of England hath any Power. We do expect Captain Phillipson should have the Benefit of his Passes under our Hands, my Lord Kirkudbright's, the Lord Fairfax, and the Committee at Yorke; otherwise we must use the best Means we can to those that may do both you and us Right. We do not understand why you should trouble yourself to send a Horse-guard where Colonel Lawson's Regiment lies; for, if you think that Post too weak, we can command more Men thither when we please. Sir, we desire you to take these Things seriously into your Consideration and Advertisement. We came here into this Country at the earnest Intreaty of his Excellency the Lord General Leven, and for the Service of the Parliament and your Army; but not to be affronted; for (the Lord's Name be praised) we are not yet in so low a Condition, but we can requite Courtesies, and be sensible of Injuries. We cannot give you a Meeting To-morrow, because it is a Day appointed by the Parliament for a Thanksgiving for the late Victory against the King's Forces; but intend to be at Rose Castle at Night. We rest
Letter from the Committee in Cumberland, to Sir Tho. Glemham, about his delivering up Carlisle.
"Upon the Return of Captain Hudson unto us, we have thought fit to send him to you, to let you know that what honourable Conditions shall be agreed upon betwixt us, concerning the Town of Carlile, they shall be performed and observed as far as both Houses of the Parliament of England hath Power. We rest
From the Committee in Cumberland, to Lt. General Lesley, desiring an English Governor and Garrison may be put into Carlisle.
"There is a general Report that you have agreed and concluded on Articles with Sir Thomas Glemham, for rendering the Town of Carlyle; if it be so, you know very well, it is without our Knowledge and Advice what hath passed betwixt you; and, so soon as it shall be in your Power, we do hereby demand that an Englishman may be Governor of Carlile, and such English Forces put into it as may be thought fit to secure that Place, until the Pleasure of the Parliament be further known; for we conceive you are in the Parliament's Service. To this we expect your Answer; and rest
From Sir Tho. Glemham to the Committee in Cumberland, that he will surrender the Town only to a General.
"When I heard last from you, you engaged yourselves unto me, you would assure the Consents of my Lord Leven and my Lord Fairfax, for the rendering of this Town on honourable Conditions unto the English Forces before it, when Necessiry might inforce us to it. To that End, Captain Phillipson was employed by me (by your Desire) unto them both: His Journey hath been uneffectual, and himself is detained, having your Pass withall. You stop several of our Prisoners, whose Ransoms are already paid by us unto Colonel Briggs, by his Desire, and the Consent of your Officers. You have written now, that what honourable Conditions I shall make with you concerning the Surrender of this Place shall be confirmed by both Houses of Parliament. The former are not made good; and I have no Assurance from any One General of the latter by your Letters. If Necessity compels me to capitulate for the Render of this Town, you may assure yourselves it shall be to those that shew me the Assurance of a General for it, from whom I may expect Performance of Conditions. Thus rests
From the Committee in Cumberland, to the Speaker of the H. C. about this Business.
"At the earnest Desire of his Excellency the Lord General Leven, and for his better Encouragement to march Southward, it was thought fit, by my Lord Fairfax and the rest of the Committee at Yorke, that we should make a Journey into Cumberland, to try if we could get any Maintenance for the Scotts Forces before Carlile, that so the Siege might be continued there; as also to see in what Condition that Place was in.
"On Saturday the 14th of this Month, we came to Penrith; and, by the Way as we came, we sent to Sir Wilfred Lawson (who commanded all the English Forces before Carlile) to take Occasion to send into Carlile, and to learn their Condition; which accordingly he did, and returned us Answer, That if they might have Assurance, that, whensoever they did treat, the Articles agreed on might be observed, they did seem to incline to Terms of Agreement, if they might be fully satisfied in that Point. We presently replied, "That if Sir Thomas Glemham would (fn. 3) send out any Person of Trust to speak with us, we would endeavour his Satisfaction; or, if he had a Desire, we would give that Party a Pass, to go to my Lord Fairfax, the Committee of both Kingdoms residing at Yorke and with the Scotch Army, and to his Excellency the Lord General Leven, that he might be fully satisfied in that Particular, how honourable Conditions should be observed, when any were agreed on. For this Purpose, Captain Phillipson was sent out from Sir Thomas Glemham to us, with a Desire that he might have a Pass, to go as above-mentioned. We acquainted my Lord Kircudbright therewith, who commanded the Scotch Forces in Chief, and who signed Captain Phillipson's Pass with us; and the Letters we wrote to the Committees of both Kingdoms, and my Lord General Leven. We sent Captain Hudson, the Bearer hereof, along with Phillipson; and the Lord Kircudbright sent Major Mackburney: But when they came to Yorke the General was advanced into Nottingham; and so Captain Phillipson returned, in regard (as he faith) his Pass was but for Yorksh'r only; though, we are confident, my Lord Fairfax and the rest of the Committee at Yorke, would have given him a Pass for Nottingham, if he had desired it. My Lord Fairfax, and the rest of the Committee, then wrote back again unto us, they should have Performance of such honourable Conditions as should be agreed upon betwixt us; but concerning my Lord General Leven's Answer thereunto, we shall shew you his Letter under his own Hand, so soon as we can wait upon you, which shall be with all possible Diligence; in the mean Time the Copy. Whilst these Things were in Agitation, the Lieutenant General David Lesley comes back from the Army, and stopped Captain Phillipson upon his Return (notwithstanding his Passes), in regard as he faith he had not been with the Lord of Leven. We wrote to the Lieutenant General to give us a Meeting upon Thursday the 26th of June; and he sent us Word he would meet us at the Time and Place appointed. When we came within less than Half a Mile of the Place, a Servant of his met us with a Letter, to let us know, he had appointed a Meeting with Sir Tho. Glemham, and therefore could not (fn. 4) possibly give us Meeting at that Time; but the next Day he purposed to meet us. Upon this, we consulted together; and having sundry Informations that Sir Thomas Glemham and he were treating about the Town without our Knowledge or Advice, we sent him a Letter (a Copy whereof is here inclosed) with all possible Speed, to which we received no Answer at all. We likewise sent in Captain Hudson to Sir Thomas Glemham, to let him know, what honourable Conditions should be agreed on between him and us, we would undertake the Performance of them as far as both Houses of Parliament had any Power. We send you likewise the Copy of that Letter, unto which Sir Tho. Glemham returned this inclosed. That Night (being Thursday Night), we had Intelligence from sundry Persons, that Sir Thomas Glemham and the Lieutenant General David Lesley had agreed of Articles for rendering the Town, and that it would be given upon Friday or Saturday at the farthest; all which being done without our Knowledge or Consent, and having in our Letter to David Lesly protested, in the Name of both Houses of Parliament, against any such Proceedings without our Advice or Consent, and he still persisting in his own Way without returning any Answer at all unto us, we thought it our Duty to send another Letter unto him (a Copy whereof is inclosed), unto which no Answer at all is yet returned; and therefore, in a Business of so high Concernment as we conceive this is, we have sent Captain Hudson, who hath been employed from the Beginning of this Business to the End, that he may fully inform you of all Passages that you shall desire to be satisfied in; and, as Occasion is, we shall send unto you again, and follow after ourselves, that there may be nothing wanting in us to preserve all good Correspondency and Agreement betwixt the Two Nations, which shall be ever our Endeavours. We, that are upon the Place, discern by the Inhabitants of both these Counties, that, unless they may have an English Garrison in Carlile, they have already lain under so many Pressures, that we shall hazard the Loss of them both. We rest
From the Committee at York, to the Speaker, about the same.
"We are advertised this Day, by a Letter from Mr. Darley, of the 27th of June Instant, of the Surrender of Carlile; but the Manner is much contrary to our Expectations and your Intentions, expressed in your late Vote, against which the English Commissioners there (as is mentioned in that Letter) did, before the Surrender thereof, make a Protestation, and likewise a Demand of an English Governor and Garrison to be put into it; to which they received no Answer. We are thus general, because this Bearer will acquaint you with all the Particulars of it: Notwithstanding, we hold it our Duties, according to the Trust reposed in us, freely to represent unto you our Thoughts and Apprehensions of the Consequences of this Business; for we understand by the Bearer, that the Country thereabouts is so deeply sensible of their late and great Pressures suffered by the Scottish Army, and so much offended therewith, that, if their Spirits be still further provoked and exasperated by the Disappointment of an English Garrison, from whence they only hoped to have found Relief, the Consequence thereof may prove exceeding dangerous to these Parts, and likewise may have an Influence to the Prejudice of this County also, who are yet very sensible of the late Pressures sustained by the Scottish Army: We therefore humbly intreat, that some speedy Order may be given for that Country's Satisfaction; which not being seasonably done, we much fear, may tend to the interrupting, if not to the utter disappointing, of a chearful and firm Association, whereof we are assured, if not prevented by this. We intreat you, that this Letter may be presently read in the House; and remain
It is this Day Ordered, by the Lords and Commons assembled in Parliament, that Jonathan Devereux, Clerk, shall be presented to the Rectory of Gateside, alias Gateshead, in the County and Bishopric of Durham; and that the Commissioners of the Great Seal shall issue out a Commission, or Presentation, under the said Seal, accordingly."