Historical Collections: Or, An Exact Account of the Proceedings of the Four Last Parliaments of Q. Elizabeth. Originally published by T. Basset, W. Crooke, and W. Cademan, London, 1680.
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December 11th - 15th
Friday Decemb. 11.
A Bill for Comprehending, and Continuing the Maintenance of good and profitable Arts, and Trades, for the Commonwealth. The Effect of it was, That every man which had, or could invent any Art, or Trade, should for his Life Monopolize the same to his own Use, and he that could Add to, or Refine the same, should do the like.
Secondly: 'The Bill sheweth not, That they will be profitable to the Common-wealth; and whatsoever they be, this Bill alloweth: For divers Arts have been devised in London, that should be wrought by one Man, which could not be done heretofore with Forty; this is, said he, unprofitable, because it setteth not many hands on work.
Thirdly: 'It will breed Confusion; because if but a little Addition be made by another, a new Licence is granted to this Man. And now, if to that Addition another shall add, that will be ad infinitum, and so breed Confusion. Whereupon he Concluded, That he for his part thought fit the Bill should be quash'd; and divers cried Away with it.
I wished, That the Bill might be Read again, and considered, because we allowed of these kind of Patents once before this Parliament: Namely, in the Licence for making Tyn by Mills, out of the Old Rubbish in Cornwal, upon the Motion of Sir Walter Rawleigh; and this Bill desired no more in effect.
Besides, he that invented any Art, or Trade, it was reason he should have some Privilege; because it would be an Incouragement to others. For, Nemo nascitur Artisex, and no man could come to that Perfection upon the first knowledge of it, but being taught by the first Inventor for a Season.
Also the Proposition of the Gentleman that last spake, did not hold in all Arts, that the work of many should be done by one. For it is Profitable for the Common-wealth, if Water may be brought to every Mans House for Ten Shillings Value, where it could not be done for Ten Pounds cost, as by the Water-work-device at London. So, of Iron-Mills in the low-Countries, and of the Corn-Mills upon the Thames. So of shooting and Charging of Ordnance, and Fire-Works, and the like; and generally of Arts, and Sciences, that can not be done by Poor; but must be done by Persons Judicial and of Skill, and those that have a more Natural Inclination to come to Perfection in those things, than every base Beggar.
Mr. Singy said: 'The Author of the Bill perhaps, was a Sugar-Man, for the used the word Refiner of Arts. So, it was put to the Question to be read the second time; And all said, No, No. But when Mr. Speaker said: All those that will have this Bill read the second time, say, I, I, I: Sir Richard Knightly said No, Aloud; at which the House Laughed, and not one said, I, I.
Mr. Doyly shewed, That he had the Bill, and had attended two Days, and none of the Committees would Meet; he Prayed, the House would either command the Committees to Meet, or Discharge him of the Bill.
'That if their Lordships had already concluded what to do in the Bill of Patents, they then had no Commission to proceed. And it they had altered the Bill in any point, with amendments, they had no Commission.
'But if their Lordships had done neither, but only were defirous to be resolved of any doubt, which they in their Wisedomes conceived, and would willingly thereabouts confer with them, they would most willingly accomplish their desires: for they had sufficient Warrant from the House so to do.
The Lord Buckhurst, Lord Treasurer, after a little Whispering with the Lords, answered, 'That he would not have us preoccupate their Judgments with a Speech both Strange, Improper, and Preposturous, &c.
'My Lords, We of the Lower-House are very sorry your Lordships should conceive otherwise than well of our Speech and good Intent. Your Lordships termed our Speech (for so I may say, because I spake in the behalf, and the name of all the Committees) strange, improper, and preposterous. My Lords, I think it not Strange, for it is not unknown unto your Lordships, We be all Members of One Body, and as we cannot be without your Lordships, so your Lordships cannot be without Us. And when we are desirous, it pleaseth your Lordships out of your Favour, to vouchsafe Us a Conference; so when your Lordships be willing, it pleaseth Us out of the desire we have to be observant, to yield thereunto; neither have your Lordships been more willing to Gratify Us with your Favours, than We of the Lower-House have been willing to further your Lordships Desires, with our best Furtherance.
'For the Epitheton Improper: I am to tell your Lordships, That I delivered no more than I was Commanded, nor no less than I was Required. And therefore, by your Lordships Favour, no cause it should deserve the Title of Improper.
'And, I take it by your Lordships Favours, it was not Preposterous; For the First Matter we took should be handled, was the Doubts which we Imagined your Lordships had conceived of the Bill: And if your Lordships had ought else conceived, I thought fit to shew your Lordships, that we then came without Commission.
'But We of the Lower-House, who be here Committees, do beseech your Lordships, that you would not conceive otherwise of Us, than we deserve. And your Lordships shall find Us ever ready in all Dutiful Service, as coadjuting Members of one United Body, the House of Parliament.
The Lords were satisfied with our Answer, and were very 'glad they found Us so Conformable; by which they doubted not but we should well agree for the Conference, whereby the Bill might have the better Passage.
Mr. Secretary Cecil, answered: 'That he was very glad their 'Lordships did conceive aright of them; and that the Com 'mittees, because they were many, and would not be troublesome to them with multiplicity of Speeches, had chosen for their Speakers to Satisfie their Lordships, Mr. Bacon, Mr. Serjeant Harris, Mr. Francis Moore, Mr. Henry Mountague, and Mr. Boys.
So the Lords called Mr. Attorney General to them; who began to make Objections; and Mr. Bacon answering Mr. Attorney, again Objected; and Mr. Serjeant Harris, before he had fully ended, began to answer. To which, Mr. Attorney said: Nay, Good Mr. Serjeant, Leap not over the Stile, before you come at it: Hear me out I pray you, and conceive me aright. So when he had done, Mr. Serjeant Answered:
I beseech your Lordships to hear me, and that I may answer without check or Controul, which I little Respect, because it is as light, as Mr. Attorney's Arguments. And so he proceeded to answer. So the Conference brake up untill the next Morning, at which time the Lords said: They would send us word when they were ready.
A Bill for the Relief of Theophilus Adams, Touching certain Obligations supposed to be made void, by a Proviso contained in the Statute 39. Reginæ cap. 22. Intituled. An Act for the Establishment of the Bishoprick of Norwich, and the Possessions of the same, against a certain pretended, concealed, Title made thereunto.
Saturday, Decemb. 12.
On Saturday, Decemb. 12. A Bill to confirm the Assurance of the Mannors and Farmes of Sagebury, alias, Sadgbery, and Obden, and other Hereditaments, to Samuel Sands Esq; and John Harris Gentleman, and their Heirs, being Ingrossed, was put to the Question, and was passed.
A Bill for Redress of certain Abuses used in Painting, was moved by Sir George Moore, and some others, that this Bill might be let slip, and the Cause referred to the Lord Mayor of London, because it concerned a Controversy between the Painters and Plaisterers. To which,
Mr. Davis Answered, That the last Parliament this Bill should have passed this House; but it was referred as now desired, and Bonds made by the Plaisterers for performance of the Orders made by the Lord Mayor; yet all will do no Good, wherefore, Mr. Speaker, I think it good it should be put to the Question.
'But I stood up, as it was putting to the Question, and 'shewed, That in the Statute of 25. Ed. 3. cap. 3. Plaisterers were not then so called, but Dawbers, and Mudd-Wall-Makers; who had for their Wages by the day Three-Pence, and his Knave Three-Hall-Pence (so was his Labourer called;) they continued so until King Hen. 7th's. time, who brought into England with him, out of France, certain Men that used Plaister of Paris, about the Kings Ceilings and Walls, whose StatuteLabourers these Dawbers were.
'Those Statute-Labourers learned, in short time, the Use of Plaister of Paris, and did it for the King, and increased to be many; then sueing to the King for his Favor to Incorporate them, who fulfill'd their desire, and Incorporated them by the Name of Gipsarii; which was for Clay or Mudd, aliàs Morter-makers, Anno 16 Hen. 7. Being no Free-Men, for all their Incorporation, they obtained the Kings Favourable Letters to Sir William Remington, then Lord Mayor of London, and the Aldermen, to allow them Free-men. Which was granted.
'At which time came in Four of them, and paid Ten Shillings a piece for their Freedom, and in Three Years, after that manner, came in the Number of Twenty; but they paid Four Pounds a piece for Their Freedom.
'They made an humble Petition, and Supplication after this, to Sir John Munday then Lord Mayor, and the Aldermen, to grant them Orders for the better Rule and Government of their Company, in these words:
'We the good Folkes of Plaisterers in London, of Plaister and Loame of the said City, for the Redress of certain Abuses of Lath-Plaister, and Loame wrought in the said Crafts, &c. And then had allowed unto them Search for their Company, for the Use of Lath, Loame, and Lime.
'In all their Incorporations, at no time, they had any words for Colours; neither yet in their Ordnances. For all they were Incorporated by the name of Plaisterers; yet all King Hen. 8's. time, they were called Dawbers, as appeareth in the accompts of the Chamber of London, paid to such and such Dawbers, for so many Days so much, and to their Labourers so much.
'Painters, and Stainers, were two several Companies in King Edw. 3. time. One for Posts, and all Timber-work to Paint. And the other, for Painting and Staining of Cloth; of great 'continuance; both Companies were joyned into one, by their own Consent, and by the Consent of the Lord Mayor, and Aldermen of the City.
'The Nineteenth Year of Edw. 4. The Painters had Orders allowed then for the Use of Oyl, and Colours especially named, in Hen. 4's. time, from the Lord Mayor and City. Painters can not work without Colours, their only mixture being Oyl and Size, which the Plaisterers do now Usurp and Intrude into.
'Painters have her Majesty's Letters Patents Dated Anno 24. Reginæ, forbidding any Artificer the Use of Colours and Oyl or Size after the manner of Painting, but such as hath been or shall be an Apprentice with a Painter, Seven Years at the least.
'And where the Plaisterers do Object, That the Painters do Abridge other Companies of their Colours; That is most apparently untrue: For Gold-smiths use Colours, but not after the manner of Painting, and work without Oyl, or Size, by enamelling. Leather-sellers Colour their Leather, but not after the manner of Painting, but work without Oyl or Size. Book-binders use Colours, but neither with Oyl or Size, So Cutlers use Varnishing, and Gilding. So Glasiers use Colours, with nealing in the Oven. Brick-layers use Colours, but neither with Oyl nor Size, and Joyners likewise do use Varnish.
'Workmanship and Skill is the Gift of God; and not one in ten proveth a Workman, yet it is requisite, that all such as have been brought up all the days of their life in a Trade, and cannot attain to that Excellency of Skill that is required, should live by the baser part of their Science, when they can not attain to the better; which is in working in Oyl and Size, those flat Posts, and Windows, &c.
'If Plaisterers be suffer'd to Paint, Workmanship in Painting will decay; for no Workman will keep an Apprentice Four or five Years to Practice, and not able to get a Penny, unless he might now and then get somewhat towards his Meat and Drink in laying of Oyl-Colours, as on Posts, &c.
'Experience teacheth us now, That amongst the Number of There Hundred there are not now Twelve sufficient Workmen in the City of London; yet one of these (Francis De Miter such was his Poverty) was fain for his Releif to Wife and Children, to wear upon the Lord Mayors Day, a Blew Gown, and a Red Cap, and to carry a Torch, he being Fifty Years Old.
'One man will lay and Paint more Colours in a day, than ten men can grind, which grinding of Colours, should be the Relief of such as cannot Attain to Workmanship, and that is taken away by the Plaisterers, and the poor men the Painters, their Wives and Children, go a Begging for want of Work.
'Besides, Painting of Cloth is decayed, and not One Hundred Yards of new Painted Cloth made here in a Year, by reason of so much painted Flanders pieces brought from thence. So that the Painters have nothing to live on, but laying of 'Oyl-Colours on Posts, Windows, &c.
'Plaisterers take mony generally from the highest Personage, to the lowest or meanest Cottage, whose Walls must needs be made. Painters take money but of a few, for their delight. Painters give to the Plaisterers six kind of Colours, commonly used; (as the Bill importeth) to be laid with Size, and not with Oyl. And for every Twenty Shillings earned with Oyl-Colours, there is Ten Pound earned with Size-Colours, they being every mans money.
These Walls, thus Curiously Painted in former Ages, the Arms so Artificially Drawn, the Imagery so perfectly done, do Witness our Fore-fathers Care in Cherishing this Art of Painting. So, I think the Bill is very reasonable, and fit to pass, And so it did.
Mr. Attorney General, and Doctor Cary came from the Lords, & shewed, Their Lordships were ready for a Conference, touching the Bill concerning Patents, and that they had given power to their Committees, fully and finally to determine the same; and desired, that our Committees might come with the like Power, which was granted; but a great Number cried, No, No.
To which, Mr. Secretary Cecil said: 'The Law for the Relief of Souldiers, I take to be both just and Honourable, and that Misery which proceeds from Obedience, Worthy to be Pitied and Relieved; for their Obedience hath shewed it self, even by Sacrificing their Bloods for our Goods; and there is liker to be a continuance, than a decay of their Miseries. I dare boldly say it, there is never a Souldier Relieved with such a Contribution, as his Misery requireth, and his Service hath deserved. And therefore I think Six Pence a Parish, at the least.
Mr. Solicitor General Fleming Moved, 'That although the Order of the House was, A Bill should not be Read twice in one morning; yet in respect that this was a Bill of great Consequence, he Prayed, That it would please the House it might be Read again. And it accordingly was. And so it was by Order presently Committed.
Mr. Snigg said: 'I would humbly pray the House, that the 'Bill of Clothing which hath at length taken, and laid open the Thest of England, which we have so long followed with Hue and Cry, I mean the Tayntor, may be Read. It Robs God of his Honour, and us of our Clothing.
Mr. Browne said: 'And I humbly present unto this House, the natural Born Child of us all, I mean the Bill against Transportation of Ordance, which is Amended, and a Proviso added, with Licence, &c. And I humbly pray the Amendments may be Read; And the Bill put to the Question. And so they were, after a little Dispute, and Ordered to be Ingrossed.
The Bill for Maimed Souldiers, was Read, To which Mr. Roger Owen spake, shewing that he was commanded by all the Justices of the Peace for Salop, to Deliver unto the House the poor Estate of the County, and therefore prayed, a Proviso might be added to exempt that County.
A Bill for the Establishing of the Remainder of certain Lands of Andrew Ketleby Esq; to Francis Ketleby, was Committed, and the place and time of Meeting was the Court of Wards, On Monday Morning by Eight of the Clock, and the Councel on both sides to be there.
Mr. Bond said: 'This Bill as it is now Ingrossed, much differeth from the First, which was here presented, which I the better like of notwithstanding, in my Opinion the Bill is altogether needless, and divers Reasons move me to think it both inconvenient, and unnecessary.
'Every Evil in a State, is not to be met with in a Law. And 'as it is in the natural, so it is in the politique Body, that sometimes the Remedy is worse than the Disease. And there 'fore particular Laws, against particular Offences, produce Novelty, and in Novelty Contempt. Hippodamus Miletius, offered to Reward any Man Bountifully, which could invent a Good and New Law. But Aristotle condemneth that Policy. And the best Orator, Demosthenes, condemneth that State which will admit of any Innovation; although it be good in it self.
If this Bill pass, there will two imputations happen to the 'State, which Wisedom wills us both to Foresee and Shunn. The First, an Infamy to our Ministers, that our Adversaries may say, This is the Fruit of your Labour, to have Preached away your Audience out of the Church.
'The Second, No less, but a greater Imputation upon our Arch-Bishops, Bishops, Arch-Deacons, and other Ecclesiastical Governours; that they be either remiss in their Authority, or else that their Prerogative hath not so much Power as a Twelvepence Fine. And doubtless these Imputations cannot be avoided, if we give the Jesuits such Head, Scope, and Comfort, as they in their Writings do greedily Apprehend.
'I do conceive, Mr. Speaker, great difference between the Law, 1. Eliz. when time was, and this Law, 44. Eliz. as now it is: then the People were newly taken from Massing & Superstition; now are planted in Truth, and rooted in Religion; the Light did then scarce appear unto them, which now shineth with Glorious Beams upon our Teachers, and Ecclesiastical Judges. And as the Malice of the Adversary was only kindled against them in the Beginning; so is it stretched forth to put down, and Flameth like a consuming Fire to devour our Doctrine.
'Suppose, that a neglector of Church-Service, comes to the Sessions, there to be Examined, alleadging an Excuse, many businesses so concern the doer not to be known, that to speak Truth would be his undoing. And not to speak Truth, would be a Wound unto his Conscience: and to say his Business were a meer Mockery; and to say an untruth, an Apparent Danger.
'If this Law may stand for a Law, me thinks, I see what Breach of Charity will happen. Say there be Forty in a Parish absent, the Church-warden presents some and not others; it will be Objected unto him. Wherefore should I be presented and not he? my Wife, my Servant, my Friend, and not his? Will not this be a great Breach of Unity and Peace?
'Just Prosecution will be infinitely Cumbersome, and partial connivance subject to Quarrel; notwithstanding this Statute, we leave Power to the Ecclesiastical Judge; whose course is to proceed to Excommunication, and so an Excommunicato capiendo must be had; this is as great a Charge as the Indictment in the Statute 1 Eliz. In this Statute, a Witness or two must be brought to the Sessions. He must be presented to the Grand-Jury, and so Indicted. This will cost Five Shillings, a Noble, or Ten Shillings, which is as much as the Charge in the first Statute. So because this Bill is Scandalous to the Clergy, Scandalous to the State, and Repugnant to Charity, and Crambe recota; I pray it may receive the like entertainment the former Bill had, viz. to be Rejected.
Sir Francis Hastings said: I shall speak upon great Disadvantage: I perceive this Member of our House, hath taken Studied Pains to disturb the passage of this Bill; to which I shall not so well Answer, because I cannot so well carry away the particulars of this Politique, but not Religious Discourse.
'If it be Religion to be Obedient at pleasure, If I could be Zealous to Day, and Cold to Morrow: I could Subscribe to all that he hath said. We cannot do a more acceptable thing to God, nor a more Dutiful Service to the State, than to bring Men to Fear God.
Religion and Policy may well stand together; but as that Policy is most Detestable, which hath not Religion to warrant it: So is that Religion most happy, that hath Policy to back and maintain it. I know the Jesuits and Priests be out of square, and be at Jar amongst themselves; I pray God it be not to make a Breach amongst us, who be yet at Unity.
'Wit well Applied, is a profitable thing, but ill Applied, 'Dangerous in whosoever doth abuse it. There is no Man of Sense and Religion, but thinks he is far from Religion (pointing to Mr. Bond) that made the Speech first. He said, It would be an Imputation to our Ministers, That Speech was both absurd in Judgment, and Scandalous in Uttering; as though by the Ministers of the Word, we loath to hear of our Sins, or reconcile our selves unto God.
'The Second, That it was an Imputation to Arch-Bishops, Bishops, &c. I am so far from blaming their Government, that I Renounce that position, and am very sorry, that the strength of their Authority, stretcheth not so far as I could with it did in this Point.
'But methinks this Law should rather be a Credit to the Ministers, That now we having gone to Church these Forty Three Years our selves, and are so servent in Religion; desire also, that others may do the like.
'I beseech you, give me leave to wipe away a Grievance, which it seems, the Gentleman that last spake, imputeth unto me; he hath made a protestation that he is no Papist, I appeal to you all, if I said he was. And I say, he is no Puritan, if he be not a Papist; for if there be ever a Puritan in England, it is a Papist. I Learned of Doctor Humfries, who was sometimes my Tutor, a Division of Four Sorts of Puritans.
Doctor Cary came from the Lords, and brought a Bill concerning Captains, Souldiers, and Mariners, and other the Queens Servants in the Realm. Also another Bill for the Maintenance of the Navy, Increase of Mariners, and the Avoiding the scarcity of Victuals.
It was shewed by Doctor Bennet, upon occasion of Speech of the Multitude of Recusants, that there were Thirteen Hundred, nay, Fifteen Hundred Recusants in Yorkshire, which he vouched upon his Credit were presented in the Ecclesiastical-Court, and before the Councel at York.
So, after divers other Speeches and Arguments, it was put to the Question, Whether the Bill should be Ingrossed? The Substance whereof was, That if any Man came Eight times in the Year to the Church, and read the Divine Service Twice every Sunday and Holyday in his House, with his whole Family, that should be a sufficient Dispensation.
This was utterly misliked, yet divers that were minded to overthrow the Bill, went forth with the Proviso, because they would have it joyned with the Bill to overthrow it. Whereupon the House was divided, and upon division it appeared thus, the I, I, I, were One Hundred Twenty Six, and the No, Noes Eighty Five. So the Proviso passed.
Then it was put to the Question for Passing of the Bill, but then divers Reasons were shewed to the contrary. Mr. Bonds, two Reasons of prejudice to Ministers, and the Clergy, and the danger by Breach of Charity, That the Information was a thing contrary to Magna Charta, That there might be a Conviction without inquiry, &c.
Sir Walter Rawleigh shewed, 'That all the Church-Wardens of every Shire, must come to the Sessions to give Information to the Grand-Jury. Say then there be 100 and 20 Parishes in a Shire; there must now come Extraordinarily 200 & 40 ChurchWardens; and say, that but Two in a Parish Offend in a Quarter of a Year, that makes Four Hundred and Eighty persons (with the Offenders) to appear. What great Multitudes this will bring together! What Quarrelling and Danger may happen, besides giving Authority to a mean churchwarden! How prejudicial this may be! with divers other Reasons against it. As also, he said, There was some Ambiguities and Equivocations therein, the Proviso being newly ad 'ded, being a plain Toleration from coming to Church. And that the Parson could not present or constrain any, if they read Service at Home.
So it was put to the Question, thrice together; and because the Truth could not be discerned, the House was again divided. And the I, I, I, went forth and were 105. and the Noes within were 106. so it was lost by one Voice. But the I, I, I, said, they had Mr. Speakers Voice, which would make it even. And then it grew a Question, whether Mr. Speaker had a Voice?
Sir Edward Hobby, who was of the I, I, I, side, said, That when Her Majesty had given us leave to Choose our Speaker, she gave us leave to choose one out of our own Number, and not a stranger. He is a Citizen of London, and a Member, and therefore he hath a Voice.
To which it was Answered, by Sir Walter Rawleigh, and confirmed by the Speaker himself, That he was fore-closed of his Voice, by taking of that Place which it had pleased them to impose upon him, and that he was to be indifferent for both Parties. And withal shewed, That by the Old Order of the House, The Bill was lost.
Mr. Boyer, Secretary to the Lord Buckhurst, said: Mr. Speaker, I think it not lost, for there hath been foul and great Abuse Offer'd in this matter. A Gentleman that would willingly have gone forth, according to his Conscience, was pulled back. Though I much Reverence my Masters of the Temple, and am much bound to the Benchers of the Midle-Temple, yet if it will please the House, and you, Mr. Speaker, to Command me to Name him, I will. The greatest Voice said No; yet Mr. Secretary Cecil, willed him to Name him. And he said, Mr. Dale of the Midle-Temple.
Mr. Comptroller, after some silence, said: We have been often troubled by Physitians, (meaning Mr. Bond,) and they have been spoken against: He troubled us with Aristotle, & other Books. If he had staid there, it had been well. But I think, we had need of Physitians to stay our Heads, and Cool our Heats and Humours, not fitting a Court of Parliament; For it is a most intolerable Disorder.
I do think the Offence an heynous Offence, both against God and this Assembly; for the First, in that every man is to go according to his Conscience, and not by Compulsion. And for the other Gentleman, (meaning Sir Walter Rawleigh) that said, he had often done the like, I think he may be ashamed of it; for large is his Conscience, that in a matter of this Consequence, will be drawn either forward or backward by the Sleeve. And I think it fit, it is so Heynous, that he answer it at the Bar (meaning Mr. Dale.) But because Sir Walter Rawleigh was last named, it was taken to be meant of him.
Mr. Secretary Cecil said: 'I am sorry to see this disorder, and little do you know how for disorder the Parliament is Taxed. I am sorry I said not, Slandered. I hoped as this Parliament began gravely, and with judgment, so we should have ended 'modestly, and at least with discretion. I protest I have a Libel in my Pocket against the Proceedings of this Parliament.
'The Offence, that the Gentleman that last spake, spake of, I confess is great and punishable. And this I wish may be inflicted on him, that he whose Voice may be drawn either forward or backward by the sleeves, like a Dog in a string, may no more be of this House; and I wish for his Credit sake, he would not. But, that it should be so great as to be called to the Bar, I see no Reason; neither do I know, why any in this House should speak so Imperiously, as to have a Gentleman of his Place and Quality (pointing to Sir Walter Rawleigh) called to the Bar.
'For the matter it self, the Noes were 106. and the I, I, I, 105. Mr. Speaker hath no Voice; and though I am sorry to say it, yet I must needs confess lost it is, and farewel it. And so the House rose confusedly, it being after six a Clock.
There was another Gentleman (a Noe) pulled out, as well as the other was kept in, and therefore it had happen'd even as before; howsoever, Mr. Edward Johns and Mr. Barker pulled Mr. Lyonel Ducket out.
Sonday Decemb. 13.
Munday Decemb. 14.
A Bill for the Recovery of many Hundred Thousand Acres of drowned Grounds in the Ile of Ely, and in the Counties of Cambridg, Huntington, Northampton, Lincoln, Norfolk, Suffolk, &c. was Ordered to be Committed.
Mr. Browne said: 'This Questor is a Factor for Merchants, Strangers, and an Ingrosser of Fish, and keeps a Ware-house here in London. And now, because he would Defraud the Queen of a double Subsidy, being an Alien Stranger, he would be Indenizen'd.
Sir Walter Rawleigh said: 'I know Questor well, he hath served the Queen long, and done Her good service, he hath been these 36. Years in England, & hath ever shewed himself a good Subject; and for his good Service, I see no Reason but he should be permitted to pass with the rest.
Mr. Secretary Cecil said: 'I know this man Questor well; this Testimony I am able to give of him, that he is a man of good Substance, and of Qualitie, and of his quality I know not an honester man in England; he hath done good Service both to the Queen, and to the State; and that to my know ledg. For the matter of Custom, I know her Majesty is well pleased therewith, and therefore no Defrauding. That he should be an Ingrosser of Fish for Strangers, it may be; but I think he is not. I protest if I knew he were, I should hate him as I do hate Monopolies. It is no great matter if we pur him in, for the Bill may be quashed either in the Upper-House, or Her Majesty may dash him out, at her Pleasure. The Committee, that was appointed this Forenoon in Ketlebies Case in the Court of Wards, is appointed to be this afternoon in the same place. Because the Council who were Committees, and the Cause being of great Weight, Five Hundred Pounds Per Annum, were to go presently to end the Conference with the Lords, touching Patents, for they tarried for them.
Mr. Francis Moore brought in the Bill for continuance of some Statutes, and Repeal of some others, with two Provisoes touching Dover-Haven, (and the longer was accepted) I leave it, quoth he, to the Consideration of the House, to take whether they list, or to refuse both; and here stayed whilst the Clerk of the Crown and a Doctor brought two Bills from the Lords, which had past this House, viz. The Exchequer-Bill without any amendment, only a short Proviso added to the end, the Effect whereof was:
That upon Order in the open Court, it should be Lawful for any Officer, Clerk, &c. to award Process, and drive the Parties to Plead Quo titulo, &c. which was Prohibited by the Bill. The second was the Bill touching the joynture of Lucy Countess of Bedford, with some amendments, and a Proviso.
Mr. Secretary Cecil said: 'If ever there was a time to look to the Ports and Havens, it is now. If you remember, what place is Ex opposito to Dover, what Neighbours we have, and how greatly that Haven doth stand us in stead, I believe you would be more willing to add, than to take any thing away from the maintenance thereof. I wish therefore, to end this Controversy, that this may be the Question, Whether of these two Pro visoes shall be added to the Law? But I think the greatest is best, and largest, and I should be loth to Detract any thing from that Contribution: So the greater was taken.
Mr. Hackwell said: 'I think, Mr. Speaker, we do not give 'that Favor to a Bill which lies dormant in this House, as the Bill meriteth. It was well said, by one, that Ships were the Walls of our Kingdom; which if we suffer to Decay, as I am certainly assured they are Decaying, not only a quarter, or third part, but even half, and as our strength Diminisheth, so our Enemies increase.
'And therfore Mr. Speaker, it being for a publique Good, and general Happiness to us all, I wish so profitable a Bill may be Read, and have good passage; it is Intituled, A Bill touching Souldiers, Mariners, and maintenance of Shipping.
Sir Edw. Hobby moved the House, to have their Opinions touch ing the Proviso sent down from the Lords, with the ExchequerBill, which was Ingrossed in Parchment; for he somewhat doubted of it, and thought it ought to be in Paper; for all Amendments that come from the Lords use to be in Paper, and not in Parchment, but agreed, That it was well, and according to the course of the House to be in Parchment.
The Bill for the Repairing and Amending two Bridges, near Carlisle over the River of Eden, in the County of Cumberland, being Ingrossed, it was Read and Passed, and sent up to the Lords by Sir Edward Hobby and others. And the Copy of the Information against Mr. Bellgrave, under the Hand of the Clerk of the Star-Chamber.
Mr. Davis moved, and shewed, 'That a Servant of Mr. Hudlestons (Knight for Cumberland) I think, being some twelve months since, hurt in the Hand, went unto one Mathews a Surgeon by Fleet-Bridg, who for Ten Pound undertook the Cure; the Man gave him a Bill of Ten Pound for the said Cure, which, he the said Mathews could not perform, without leaving a great Scar, and withal a little lameness in his hand, notwithstanding he paid the Surgeon Eight Pound: but upon what suggestion I know not, Mathews hath sued Mr. Hudlestons man for the whole Ten Pound, and Arrested him upon an Execution, into the Counter. The man told him, he was Mr. Hudlestons man, and that his Master was a Member of this House, and a Knight of a Shire, and that he was thereby privileged from Arrest, and wished to be discharged. But Mathews, and the Serjeant said, they cared not for his Master, nor his Privilege; and said, that he was not priviledged from an Execution. And so being carried to the Counter, he told the like to the Clerks, who affirmed likewise, that Priviledges would not stretch to Executions, and therefore would not discharge him.
The Bill touching the Weaving of Silk and Gold Laces, after a little Debate, by the greater part, it was Rejected. The Reasons against the Bill were: 1. That it was Incroaching a Liberty to have two miles compass. 2. That it was too General; silk Wares, and all other Stuffs. 3. That it was a Prohibition of making or selling of Norwich Stuffs. 4. That the search in the Bill, was too General, and the Forfeiture too great. 5. That it was a discommodity to have all Silk-Stuffs. For Statute-Lace with a third of Silk, will shew and sell better; so of Stuffs for Childrens Coats. That the Search was General as well within Liberties, as without.
Mr. Wiseman spake, and said: 'That divers particular Persons, had Purchased Lands within the Liberty; and had given much more for the same, in respect of the Privilege, than otherwise they would have done. And now this Bill wipeth away all their Right. And Mr. Speaker, I hope I may speak it without Offence, This Parliament hath been more troubled with Bills for Incroaching Liberties about the City of London, than any three Parliaments before.
Sir Stephen Some said: 'I am bound to defend London, and I cannot, under your Favor, suffer the Imputation laid against us: For, Mr. Speaker, I say to you, these Privileges are the very sink of Sin, the Nursery of naughty and lewd People, the Harbour of Rogues, Theeves, and Beggars, and maintainers of idle Persons; for when our Shops and Houses be Robbed, thither they fly for Relief and Sanctuary, and we cannot help our selves.
'The City seeing this, Purchased it of the Lord Thomas Howard, supposing to have had all the said Privileges; but finding the contrary by Experience, they now are inforced to sue for your Favours, to have it pass by Act of Parliament. This is the Cause, and I leave it to your Considerations: whereupon it was put to the Question, and the House was Divided, and the I, I, I, were 94. and the Noes 86.
Tuesday Decemb. 15.
On Tuesday Decemb. 15. A Bill to make the Lands, Tenements, and Hereditaments of Edward Lucas Gentleman Deceased, Executor of the last Will and Testament of John Flowerdewe Esquire, Deceased, liable to the payment of certain Legacies, given by the last Will of the said John Flowerdewe; and for the payment of divers other Debts, owing by the said Lucas, in his life time.
Mr. Fettiplace, prayed the House to have consideration, whether the Merchants were fit to have Consideration for Cockling and Squales, and so to make abatement to the Clothier. And he thought not, because in outward show, it seemed good; yet there lurks a hurt to the Merchant. And so it was put to the Question, and Ordered to be Ingrossed.
One Anthony Mathews a Surgeon, who dwelt about Fleet-Bridg, caused a Serjeant to Arrest one Curwyn, Servant to Mr. Hudleston Knight, for Cumberland. It appeared, that Curwin was a Solicitor, and a Servant to the said Mr. Hudleston for three Years space; and had solicited his great Cause in the Star-Chamber, betwixt Delebar and himself; the Truth of the Case was this: Curwin falling into talk with another, about Fleet-Bridg, touching Mr. Hudlestons Cause; they fell out there, and Fought, and Curwin was Hurt sore in the Hand; so he went to this Mathews, being the next Surgeon, who dressed him; and after, it was agreed, that Mathews should have for the Cure Ten Pounds, viz. Four Pounds in hand, and Mr. Hudlestons and his Bill for the Payment of the other Six Pounds when the Cure was done. Which Bill was Read openly. Now, it was Averr'd and Confessed, the Cure was done, and that Four Pounds more were Paid, and Mathews contented to forbear the other Forty Shillings untill the next serm following; but it was not paid. Whereupon the said Mathews (it being three Years since due) caused Curwin to be Arrested. And Mr. Hadleston shewed this to the House, and Offer'd (so he might have his man free) to pay the money due. And because it was Averr'd, that the Serjeant knew not of the said Curwins being Mr. Hudlestons man, but only was told that he was one of New-Inn; which indeed was true, and he lay there in his Brothers Chamber, yet served Mr. Hudleston; and the Serjeant offered to Swear the same. But the Serjeant said, That after he was Arrested, Curwin told him he was Mr. Hudlestons Man. And Mathews said, If you let him go, I will be Answer'd by you; look you to it. Whereupon the Serjeant confessed he kept him; and if he had Offended, he submitted himself.
So the House Awarded, the Serjeant should be Discharged, paying his Fees; and that Mathews should pay them: And Mathews, to pay his Fees, and remain Three Days in the Serjeants Custody, for procuring the Arrest: And that Curwin should have his Writ of Privilege; And so he had.
This Matter was argued diversly, Whether he should be priviledged or no: And some thought not; but at length I stood up, and shewed the House, That he ought to be privileged; for we had given Judgment in the like Case, of the Baron of Waltons Solicitor this Parliament. And thereupon it was put to the Question; And Ordered he should be Privileged.
Sir Edward Hobby said: 'I shall move you in a Matter, which though is seems distasteful in the beginning; yet I doubt not, but it will be very pleasing in the ending. I am given to understand, and I know it to be true, for I saw it, That the Lords have a Bill in their House, Touching Transportation of Ordnance; far more large in Matter, and more strict in Punishment, than ours is. And, where we stand so much upon the Words [Without License] and spend time therein, they make no such scruple, but put it absolute.
'Besides, I dare presume to Inform you, that the Gentleman that had the Patent, hath made a voluntary and willing Sur render thereof; laying the same even at Her Majesties Feet, which Her Majesty most Gratiously and Willingly Accepted.
'Now my Motion is this, I know their Bill is coming, and that the Parliament will be short: If we shall read Ours, and they send Theirs; this will breed Disputation, perhaps Confusion; and so, in so good and necessary a Cause, just nothing done, but both neglected. Therefore my desire is, we may tarry for Theirs. But the House would have it Read, viz. A Bill against Transportation of Money, Coin, Plate, Ordnance, &c.