Proceedings in Parliament 1624: The House of Commons. Originally published by British History Online, 2015.
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THURSDAY, 11 MARCH 1624
I. JOURNAL OF THE HOUSE OF COMMONS, PA, HC/CL/JO/1/12
[CJ 682; f. 34v]
Jovis, 110 Martii, 210 Jacobi
L. 1a. An act of explanation of a former act made 230 Eliz., An act for assurance of the yearly rent of £82 10s. to the Bishop of Coventry and Lichfield and his successors forever out of certain manors, lands, tenements and hereditaments thereby assured to Edward Fisher, esq., and his heirs.
L. 1a. [George] Morgan['s bill]. [Blank]
SIR EDWARD COKE reports the Prince's bill with amendments, which twice read.
Upon question, to be engrossed.
MR. CHANCELLOR EXCHEQUER reports. Had been made sooner if computations could have been made what would be lost in the customs if a war, which the customers cannot as yet do, but shall at any time hereafter be ready. Will only open the debt of the King by the long and deceivable treaties.
From 1617 [sic], has spent £145,000.
In entertainment of ambassadors sent here, charge of the voyage against the pirates, ships for the Prince's journey, money taken up by the Prince in/
£80,000 due to the King of Denmark, with interest, in April and July next.
Towards all these, 1/
[f. 35] For Ireland, an establishment begun there, both for church and commonwealth, which, pursued, will subsist of itself.
For the navy, from £50,000 per annum, besides the King's timber, brought these last 5 years to £30,000. 10 new ships built, besides many houses for magazines.
For the forts, a commission this last summer to Sir Richard Moryson and [blank] Ogle, who have made a certificate of the charge which shall be seen when the House shall please.
SIR BENJAMIN RUDYARD. Want of Parliaments the principal means of the growth of all those grievances which the commonwealth now suffers. The King's proposition to us now, how he shall make good that breach which we advise him to. To prepare for our own security. To entreat the Lords to join with us in a committee of a Council of War to advise of the fittest means to secure Ireland, our forts, set out our navy and join with the Low Countries. To present the King with some present for himself, to sweeten him, besides the provision for war.
SIR J[AMES] PERROT moves for a select committee of 20 or 30 as the House shall think, to consider of the state of the King and kingdom.
SIR H[ENRY] MILDMAY. All our hopes of future happiness consist in this Parliament. Nemo laeditur, nisi a seipso. To declare ourselves that if the King follow our advice, we will not fail, upon his declaration, to make good our advice with assistance.
MR. [THOMAS] WENTWORTH. In the first place, to take Care of the Low Countries.
- 1. Whether not fit to send present supply there?
- 2. What number of men?
- 3. What money will serve for this?
- 4. What the best means for raising of this money?
[f. 35v] MR. SECRETARY CONWAY. The thing considerable now is, if we go on with a treaty, we lose ourselves, and all; if we break, then consequently a war. First, to give the King such an answer as he may declare himself, then all other considerations will follow of war, etc.
MR. [WILLIAM] CORYTON. First, to declare ourselves to the King that we will assist him if he follow our advice.
SIR GEORGE MORE. First, to give our opinions for war; secondly, that the war will be just; thirdly, how the war shall be supported.
SIR EDWARD CECIL remembers the declaration made last Parliament. To have this now made good.
MR. [EDWARD] ALFORD. To debate and digest this great business in the House before a committee to be named. First, to tie ourselves to the point of the maintenance of the war in the first place because most pressing for the present. First, in general to resolve we will assist, and then, secondly, De modo.
SIR EDWIN SANDYS. Precipitation most dangerous to counsel, delay to execution. 1 step this day. Now very seasonable to take consideration of that which in the paper last day presented from the Lords. No war just, but rebus repetitis, denegat, denunciat. Not necessary a war will follow the breach of the treaties. To answer the King that we will assist him in following our advice to the uttermost of our abilities, then, upon the King's declaration of himself, to enter into the particulars of the consequences.
The consideration of raising means for the King's assistance (the state of the kingdom considered) of great weight. This cannot be done but by taking away the grievances of the people and restoring the decay of trade. To have now only a general declaration of our resolution to assist him in pursuing our advice. To pray a conference with the Lords about returning an answer to the King. To apply ourselves here to unity, to beware of any bones cast in here.
MR. [CHRISTOPHER] BROOKE. That the end of Mr. Chancellor's report was to let us know he had disbursed so much he could do [sic] more for war, but for that must rely upon us. [f. 36] To consider, first, what is to be done; second, how to be raised. To secure Ireland, to assist the Low Countries.
SIR H[ENRY] ANDERSON. Now only to put this question, whether we will not make good that advice we have given his Majesty.
SIR EDWARD COKE. If the treaty break, then a war of necessary consequence. Let us never be afraid of war with Spain. England never richer than when war with Spain. The war just, even for recovery of the Palatinate, taken and withheld by Spain, where the King has already demanded it. Not to consult with the Lords about the supply, which only moves from us, but about the war. Delay now dangerous in respect of the season of the year.
Now to give the King that satisfaction that he may declare himself. Who will not be satisfied with generals must be generale in particulari. To have the King's answer read tomorrow morning and then to resolve of a full answer to it.
SIR ROBERT MANSELL. That if we take our time and opportunity, we may let Spain see he holds his greatness from the courtesy of our master. To estimate the charge of a war and cast how it shall be raised.
SIR WILLIAM HERBERT. To prepare ourselves to give the King satisfaction by our answer.
SIR WILLIAM STRODE. As we have hitherto joined with the Lords to prepare a committee, to join with a committee to be appointed by the Lords. Now our answer only to be that we will cheerfully make good our advice we have given his Majesty.
SIR ROBERT HARLEY, accordant. And now only to resolve whether we will not make good our advice and give the King that answer.
MR. [JOHN] GLANVILLE. The works of this day 2. First, whether this course may stand with the King's conscience and honour. Wherein, we first to give him satisfaction in respect of the taking and withholding the Palatinate. [f. 36v] To set down our reasons why the King, in conscience and honour, may do this.
The second point is how the King may be assured of assistance for the maintenance of a war. Last time, against the declaration in the paper from the Lords, first, because all supplies are to move from us; secondly, because the time then unseasonable. Not yet seasonable to go to the Lords.
MR. SOLICITOR. The first part, viz. the King's conscience and honour, not put to us, but the last point only, for support of a war, if the King declare himself for it. We must needs assist if the treaties break, yea, much more if the treaties hold. To begin with a general [CJ 683] assent that we will maintain the advice we have given, after to consider of particulars.
MR. [JOHN] WHISTLER moves to defer this until tomorrow.
SIR ROBERT PHELIPS. Now only seasonable to resolve of an answer to the King for support of our advice given to the King.
SIR D[UDLEY] DIGGES. To declare now that we will all make good our advice to the King.
SIR NATHANIEL RICH. To have this done not by question, but by acclamation.
MR. RECORDER. Have no fear but the King will follow our advice. To prepare a satisfactory answer to that the King proposes to us, which is not matter of war nor whether with honour or conscience he may make war, but that we will assist him (whatsoever shall happen) in the following of our advice.
Resolved, we not to meddle in our answer with any matter of war.
Resolved, upon question, that in pursuit of our advice, upon his Majesty's declaration to dissolve both the treaties, we will be ready to assist with our persons and abilities in a parliamentary manner; without 1 negative.
[f. 37] Resolved, a select committee to prepare this.
SIR ROBERT PHELIPS. Hopes to certify the House, within 2 or 3 days, that some of the members of this House, by a secondary way, acquaint the Spanish Ambassador with our proceedings.
Mr. Attorney General and Sir William Byrd bring a message from the Lords: that according to his Majesty's commandment, relation being made by the Lord Treasurer to their Lordships of his Majesty's estate and conceiving the like has been done here by some member of this House, that some doubts there have risen and like may rise here, for avoiding whereof the Lords desire a meeting with all the convenient speed this House may, where the Prince will be present in person to clear all doubts. Their Number 24. No place nor time.
MR. CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER. That no doubts here. Therefore, to clear that to the Lords before we admit a conference.
SIR EDWIN SANDYS. To admit a conference only to hear the Lords. We no doubts here, but have una voce resolved. To signify to the Lords that we have had a relation here, but no doubts but a cheerful Resolution.
The messengers called in, Mr. Speaker told them this House will be ready to give a meeting with a proportionable number at such time and place as their Lordships shall think convenient.
Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer to make the report and the 2 Secretaries of State.
Resolved, upon question, this committee shall set down the Prince's speech in writing upon conference of their notes, and that the 2 Secretaries and Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer shall report it tomorrow morning.
|Sir Edward Coke||Mr. [John] Coke|
|Chancellor Duchy||Sir John Savile|
|Sir Thomas Jermyn||Mr. Recorder|
|Mr. [John] Glanville||Sir Nathaniel Rich|
|Mr. Solicitor||Sir William Fleetwood|
|Sir Edwin Sandys||Sir B[enjamin] Rudyard|
Committees appointed to pen our declaration agreed upon this day. This to be done this afternoon.
II. JOURNAL OF THE HOUSE OF COMMONS, PA, HC/CL/JO/1/13
[CJ 732; f. 44]
Jovis, 11 Martii
L. 1a. An act of explanation of a former statute, made in the 23th [sic] year of the reign of the late Queen Elizabeth, entitled, An act for assurance of the yearly rent of 82 pounds and 10s. to the Bishop of Coventry and Lichfield and his successors for ever out of certain manors, lands, tenements and hereditaments thereby assured to Edward Fisher, esquire, and his heirs.
L. 1a. [George] Morgan's bill. [Blank]
SIR EDWARD COKE reports the Prince's bill. Some alterations made in it, which, being twice read, the/
[f. 45] SIR BENJAMIN RUDYARD. To cherish his Majesty's recovered inclination to Parliament. The ill success of Parliaments has been the cause of all the ill to this commonwealth. We advise the King to break off the treaties; he proposes to us how it may be done. Spain fears no state. To constitute a committee of both Houses, in nature of a Council of War, for the securing Ireland, strengthening our forts, furnishing the navy and assisting the Low Countries. To make some proportion presently for his Majesty's own supply, to sweeten Parliaments.
SIR JAMES PERROT. Before we enter to this resolution, to have a committee of 20 or 30 to consider of 2, equally to be balanced: state of the King and kingdom.
SIR HENRY MILDMAY. To defer no longer the expressing that we all intend, but to cut off the malignant hopes of all the popish party in this land. Nemo laeditur, nisi a seipso.
MR. [THOMAS] WENTWORTH. 4 into consideration:
- [1.] Whether not a necessity of sending men into Germany?
- 2. What number?
- 3. What money?
- 4. What the best means to raise it with most speed?
For the first, 4 motives.
- First, [CJ 733] the present danger of that place, considering the many armies ready to be poured down upon them. Admitting this, the second motive the consideration of their nearness in situation.
- Secondly, in amity and confederation.
- 3. Vinculum inter Deum, et homines, religion.
- 4. The preservation of the noble Queen of Bohemia and her issue. The part of this kingdom.
- 5. The consideration of our own welfare. Tum tua res agitur, paries. To resolve speedily on this.
[f. 45v] SECRETARY CONWAY. To go upon short lines in this business. To go to the business. These things of the Low Countries, after the King's declaration. To consider now the state where we are. If the treaties go, the Low Countries lost; if not go on with them, must needs have a war. Then what to do? To give the King such an answer as that he may declare himself. The rest will follow in their time.
MR. [WILLIAM] CORYTON. To go to some declaration to his Majesty. The first thing to be considered, whether we should not now need send such an answer to his Majesty as was formerly proposed.
SIR EDWARD CECIL. We have given advice to his Majesty. He has sent a wise answer, ventured his son, his estate, spent more in treaty than all the war he can make this year will come to. A vanity in us to desire him to war if not assured necessary and just. Remember the reputation of the House: go upon our first grounds. Not possible for them to give the Palatinate. Knows how weak Spain. 10,000 men will go through Spain. To desire a committee with the Lords.
MR. [EDWARD] ALFORD. For going to the Lords, not yet ready, nor for making a committee. Many motions. Will divide the question: for the war and King's debts. To tie ourselves to one point, war the most necessary. To tie ourselves to that point, for a supply for that. To proceed first with this, whether a supply to be made for a war, or no.
SIR EDWIN SANDYS. No greater enemy to consultation than precipitation, nor to action than delay. To proceed lento pede. To go this day but one step, not presently to rush into a war. Not a necessary immediate consequence. [f. 46] Bellum non recte geritur, nisi rebus repetitis et declaratis. First, to demand a restitution. For to return this answer, that if he will be pleased to take our advice, we will not fail him but assist him according to our abilities. Then will come fitly into debate the consequence of this. Likely this advice, when embraced by his Majesty and come to be put in execution, will draw a great charge upon the subject. As necessary to enable the people to make supply as to give by taking away grievances, but doubtful whether to make mention of this at this time. To have it according to the measure of our abilities. To send to the Lords that we have taken into dutiful consideration the answer, that we desire a conference with their Lordships, what answer to give to his Majesty.
MR. [CHRISTOPHER] BROOKE. Find now true that this court a council of state. The report made of the King's wants not to amuse or amaze any man here, but to let us know he is not able to disburse any more. Not to go to the Lords today, nor to a committee presently. To consider wherein the charge will lie.
SIR HENRY ANDERSON. To put the question now, sedente Curia, whether we will not make good our advice to his Majesty.
SIR EDWARD COKE. To single out the point of war. We ought to have war if we break off the treaties. England never prospered so well as when wars with Spain. Humores moti, et non remoti laedunt corpus. Thinks this a just war. No process of law to recover the Palatinate, therefore must be by cannon shot. King has demanded the Palatinate and they have not delivered it: that a denial. Not ripe for a message to the Lords. Now the time that kings go forth to battle. Delay wounds this cause. If Ireland secured, the navy furnished, the Low Countries assisted, will not care for Pope, Turk, Spain nor all the devils in hell. Take the way to persuade the King to declare. This will not be by generalities. Tomorrow morning to read the King's proposition, and then to consider our answer. Nec quies gentium sine armis.
[f. 46v] SIR WILLIAM HERBERT. To reduce the business to a point.
SIR WILLIAM STRODE. Nothing to do at this time but to procure a declaration from his Majesty. To prepare a committee to meet with the Lords. Nothing to do but we would be ready to make good our advice.
SIR ROBERT HARLEY. To go to the question whether, in the first place, in all these weighty matters, to make a manifestation that if the King will declare himself, we will support him.
MR. [JOHN] GLANVILLE. The work of this day twofold. First, to give advice how it may stand with his conscience and honour. Not resolved on war, but as much in effect will put no scorn on us, nor brook a furrow of land. Has suffered to be here declared how the Spaniard has dealt with him. For the point of his honour and conscience, thinks we may safely advise the King in it.
Second, doubt that he shall not be able to through with it. To go to the question upon these 2 points:
1. Whether the King may not/
MR. SOLICITOR. The King's honour and conscience not put to us. To fix ourselves, as yet upon the general.
SIR ROBERT PHELIPS. The proposition of war not now seasonable. Fit now for us to justify our advice that in case his Majesty will break the treaties, we will assist, etc. To resolve this point, that we will assist his Majesty as far as shall be convenient.
[f. 47] SIR NATHANIEL RICH. 2 questions. Nothing in the King's doubts which should retard his Majesty's resolution to declare. All is weak now will be much weaker hereafter. Not to put to the question whether we shall assist his Majesty in our advice. To have it done by a general acclamation because such rumours abroad of our backwardness to come unto it.
MR. RECORDER. The King gives God thanks with all the faculties of his mind for our advice; no doubt, therefore, but he will follow it. Not to enter into a question not warranted by the speech. War not our question now, nor whether the King may make war with honour and conscience. Hopes the King's conscience will agree with all our consciences. To have the question single. That we should make an answer that if he declare to break off the treaties, we would be ready to our best abilities to assist him.
Resolved, upon question, that in pursuit of our advice we will be ready, upon his Majesty's declaration to break off both the treaties, to assist both with our persons and abilities in a parliamentary manner. This done with a general acclamation without any one voice to the contrary.
SIR ROBERT PHELIPS. To have a strict injunction upon every member of the House not to declare what has been done here today upon pain of being turned out of the House.
CHANCELLOR DUCHY. Not fit to silence what is here done today. Let it go to Rome.
[f. 47v] A message from the Lords by Attorney [General] and Sir William Byrd. The Lords have sent this message: that whereas upon report made to their Lordships this day by the Lord Treasurer of his Majesty's estate, they conceive the like here done. Doubts there arise; they think the like may be here. They desire a meeting with all convenient speed where the Prince will be to clear all doubts. Their number: 24. No place nor time.
CHANCELLOR EXCHEQUER. To return answer that no doubts here.
SIR EDWIN SANDYS. If we give them a meeting, we give them an audience and no conference. Their doubts [CJ 734] may breed some impediment to the resolution. To signify to them that the like relation has been made here, but no dispute here of any doubts.
Answer: this House has taken into consideration the message. Will give the Lords a meeting with a proportionable number at such time and place as their Lordships shall appoint.
A message from the Lords by the same messengers: the Lords desire the meeting presently in the Painted Chamber.
Answer: our committee of 48 will presently give their Lordships meeting.
MR. SECRETARY cannot make report [of the Prince's speech]. Was not near [enough to hear it]. To have the committee go into the Committee Chamber and agree of the report.
Resolved, upon question, to defer this report until tomorrow morning, and the committees to meet this afternoon and confer their notes together. Mr. Chancellor and the 2 Secretaries to make the report.
|[col. 1]||[col. 2]|
|Sir Edward Coke||Mr. [John] Glanville|
|Chancellor Duchy||Mr. [John] Coke|
|Sir Thomas Jermyn||Sir John Savile|
|Recorder||Sir Nathaniel Rich|
|Sir William Fleetwood|
|Sir Benjamin Rudyard|
|Mr. [John] Glanville [sic]|
III. DIARY OF JOHN HAWARDE, WILTSHIRE AND SWINDON ARCHIVES, 9/34/2
Jovis, 110 Martii 1623
1. L. Bill d'explanacion de 23 Eliz. pur confirmacion de terres al Sir Thomas [sic] Fisher.
1. L. Bill pur [George] Morgan pur avoider decree in Chancery entre [William] Megges et [Richard] Bowdler.
SIR EDWARD COKE. Reporte le bill pur le Prince.
Sur question, deste ingrosse.
SIR RICHARD WESTON. Fait reporte pur le losse par customes si enter warre. Rather open than ease wants. Long and deceaveable treties ove Spaine.
Since Michaelmas 1619:
Hoape de Ireland's constant governmente.
£53,000 per annum sur le navie. 10 de novo buylte. 192,099 ore in shippinge.
|To be taken out of||£661,670|
|Disbursed more by his Majestie than is received||[£]290,030|
SIR BENJAMIN RUDYARD. Le ill sucesse in Parliamentes has brede all the ill to the kingdome. Mainteigne Parliaments and never wante libertie. If this faylle, I feare it will be the laste Parliamente.
[p. 200] SIR JAMES PERROT. The Pope's demisaries, the Janisaries of Rome, Jesusites.
SIR HENRY MILDMAY. Wee may now saye we carrye all our wealthe about us. Nemo lediture sed a seipso. Malignant popish faction of this kingdome.
MR. [THOMAS] WENTWORTH. Piche upon a partyculer. For the Low Cuntries:
1. Important necessitie to sende men speedilye. Neere in situation; in contynewed amitie religion.
2. What number of men?
3. What charge to send them?
4. How to by raysed?
[5.] The Prince [Palatinate], Lady Elizabeth and her children.
SECRETARY CONWAY. To make our declaracion to draw his Majestie's declaracion for the breache of the treatie.
SIR GEORGE MORE. [Blank]
SIR EDWARD CECIL. [Blank]
MR. [EDWARD] ALFORD. Long et mature deliberacyon. Warre: de necessitie? Supplye; quo modo?
[p. 201] SIR EDWIN SANDYS. No greater enemie to counsell and consultacion then precipitation, and to action than delaye. Bellum justum per recover le Palatinate. My dutyfull respecte to his Majestie reflecte my carefull thoughtes upon the kingdome to inable them to assiste his Majestie with our persons and fortunes to the uttermost of our fortunes. A bone within fewe dayes to dissolve us. The wisedome of a man to passe by an offence.
MR. [CHRISTOPHER] BROOKE. Prince's Parliamente: bonum nomen, bonum omen.
SIR HENRY ANDERSON. Pur question.
SIR EDWARD COKE. Warre: 1. or no?; 2. juste? Englande never prospered so well as when warre with Spaine. Bellum justum pro rebus repetendis. Delaies wounds the cause. Generale in particulari.
SIR ROBERT MANSELL. 4 things necessary for a warre:
Amidd a bugbeare. A giant, we have a David. Spaine holds his greatnes from the curtesie of our master.
SIR WILLIAM HERBERT. [Blank]
SIR WILLIAM STRODE. I had rather once smarte then ever ache.
SIR ROBERT HARLEY. [Blank]
[p. 202] MR. [JOHN] GLANVILLE. [Blank]
MR. SOLICITOR. Warre a necessarie consequence.
SIR ROBERT PHELIPS. [Blank]
SIR DUDLEY DIGGES. [Blank]
SIR NATHANIEL RICH. [Blank]
MR. RECORDER. [Blank]
Le SPEAKER. Fait question: as many as thinke fitte to pursue our advise and assistance with the best and utmost of our abilities.
MR. SECRETARY. In a parliamentarie waye with our landes and person or rather our abilities.
SIR THOMAS JERMYN. That in pursuite of our advise, wee will be ready, upon his Majesties's declaracon to dissolve the treaties, to assyste bothe with our persons and abilities in a parliamentarye course. A selected committee to prepare this.
SIR ROBERT PHELIPS. Voile discover member de cest Huise qui par meanes discover tout al Spanish Ambassador.
[p.203] Message del seignours, [par] Mr. Attornie [General] et Doctor [William] Byrd: a meetinge de 24, nul temps ou lieu, pur relacion del Lord Tresorer, le foundacion de cest advise, to cleere all doubts.
Respons: to meete what time and place the Lords shall appointe. Mesme les messengers vient arere le meetinge presently in le Painted Camere al que est agree.
The nomber filled after they were gone, and the order sente to them but they retorned before.
Sur question, reporte to be made tomorrow.
IV. DIARY OF JOHN HOLLES, BL, HARL. MS 6,383
Thursday, the 11th of March
SIR RICHARD WESTON, being appointed to make report of the King's debts about the Spanish business, began; he would only report the King's great expenses by the long and deceivable treaties of Spain and the Palatinate. These particulars are in a paper. He concluded that for Ireland, as divers of the House can better report it, that by the King's great care and charge there had been so good a course taken that within a few years it will defend itself, and that the navy was never in better case, being increased 4,000 ton[s], and now the tonnage of the navy amounts to 19,499 ton[s].
SIR BENJAMIN RUDYARD. You have heard and twice read his Majesty's loving and wise answer to us. That he promises to be in love with Parliaments, and calls himself the husband and his people the wife. [f. 96] Let us cherish his Majesty's good inclination to Parliaments. All our mischief has come from rents of Parliaments. Let us not lay all the blame upon the King. We have had our own heats and passions. If we be wilful, we may blow up ourselves without gunpowder, even with our own breaths. As long as we have Parliaments, we shall have liberties. If this Parliament dissolve untowardly, he fears it will be the last of Parliaments. Thus much he said by way of preparation, then to the cause of assembling this Parliament. The Spaniard fears no enemy so much as us, therefore hates us most. He will attempt suddenly before we be prepared. He moved to have a committee of both Houses in nature of a Council of War, and to sweeten his Majesty and make him in love with Parliaments, to give him, in particular, proportionable to his necessities.
SIR HENRY MILDMAY. We carry all our fortunes about us in this Parliament, and nemo laeditur nisi a seipso. It cannot prejudice us to make promises of giving being conditional upon the King's declaration. Uno ictu we may cut off all the papists among us, that is by giving.
MR. [THOMAS] WENTWORTH. An important necessity speedily to assist the Low Countries, to consider what numbers to send, what moneys and how. It was a preamble to divers subsides in Queen Elizabeth's time to assist the Low Countries.
SIR EDWARD CONWAY. Breaking the treaty, you must needs have a war. And to this MR. [WILLIAM] CORYTON joined.
SIR GEORGE MORE. We must consider what we have done heretofore (meaning what we have given the King), what the King has done in retribution and what we must now do. We must give our opinions whether we shall have war or no, how just the war is and how to be maintained. The people were never more willing according to their abilities, but ultra posse non est esse. We have treated away our time, our substance and our business.
SIR EDWARD CECIL. The King is unwilling to war and has spent more in a treaty than the war can cost any one year. No king makes war of his own purse, the people must bear it. It is impossible for the King of Spain to restore the Palatinate. Before we have done with him, we will make the King of Spain bring his sister and offer her. With 10,000 men, he does undertake to run through Spain.
[f. 96v] MR. [EDWARD] ALFORD moved not to conclude too hastily, for when matters of great importance are straitened with time they turn to combustion. The Low Countries are a large field to speak of. He would divide the questions, for when 2 hares are on foot there is never good hunting. First, he would speak of war, then of the King's wants; and not to leave the treating of war until it be decided, and for that to attend the King's declaration.
SIR EDWIN SANDYS. No greater enemy to consultation than precipitation, nor greater enemy to action than delay. He moved to proceed but one step. The King asked our advice for the treaties, we have for 5 reasons broken them. The King replies that then a war follows, what will you do? Bellum non juste geritur nisi pro rebus repetitis et denunciatis, therefore no war can be just than this for the Palatinate. Let us say to the King, Sir, if your Majesty will declare yourself in pursuit of our advice, we will assist your Majesty with our persons and fortunes. Let us consider the state of the kingdom, and that all knights of shires declare the state of their countries. He moved to send a message to the Lords to have a committee to join with us. It is reported that there will shortly be a bone cast out to divide both Houses.
MR. [CHRISTOPHER] BROOKE. This Parliament is called the Prince's Parliament, and as it has bonum nomen, he hopes it will have bonum omen. The order of the House is first to debate the business and hammer it well, then to put it to committees who are our executioners. There is no engagement upon general terms and conditionally, for general nihil ponit. He is an ill disputant that can see no farther then the first syllogism. The Spaniard will first begin with Ireland.
SIR HENRY ANDERSON. He will differ from all opinions in manner but not in substance. He would have the question first stated and determined. Our religion, our lives and fortunes are at stake. He would have the question put whether we would not be all ready to [f. 97] maintain this advice with our lives and fortunes.
SIR EDWARD COKE. Being a commissioner for the Treasury and upon consultation there how to increase trade and traffic, divers understanding citizens said no better way but by war with Spain. This was said under the rose. He thinks he is 7 years younger since this proposition of war. We are not yet ripe for a message to the Lords; better first debate it in the House, for the message is only for a committee in point of war only, and the supply is only to move hence. Frustra fit per plura quod fierei potest per pauciora. We must come to giving, but first to get the King declare himself. In securing the Low Countries and Ireland, he fears neither pope, Turk, Spain nor devil. Nec quies gentium sine arims nec arma sine stipendiis, etc. He moved to begin this proposition tomorrow morning, how to persuade the King to declare himself, and then for the supply.
SIR WILLIAM HERBERT. We have not so full an answer from the King as he could wish, yet better than he expected. This he speaks not under the rose but here in public. He was ever enemy to compliments, but now he would spare none to get the King to declare himself.
MR. [JOHN] GLANVILLE. Sir Edwin Sandys's paper was unseasonable to come from the Lords, that business being to proceed originally from us who sat there for shires and boroughs, whereas the Lords were only for themselves.
MR. SOLICITOR. We are now to advise of an answer to the King's last speech. He would go no further than to answer in general and to descent into particulars in his due time. This place not proper [f. 97v] for it, for we can better give than keep counsel.
SIR ROBERT PHELIPS. In case his Majesty shall declare the treaties broken, we will assist his Majesty with our substance and persons.
SIR DUDLEY DIGGES would have all men express they will be ready to fortify their advice with their fortunes, and then to go to conference.
SIR NATHANIEL RICH. The King's customs now weak, if the King's resolution be retarded are likely to be weaker. The manner of the doing as much as the matter.
MR. RECORDER. Let us not enter into a question not warranted by the King's speech. The question to be that so many as shall think fit to assist the King to maintain our advice in a parliamentary way with our persons and abilities.
SIR THOMAS JERMYN. This question like the philosopher's stone and we like alchemists; every man would have it and thinks he is within an inch of it and yet misses it.
The question, that as many as think fit that in pursuit of our advice we will be ready, upon his Majesty's declaration to dissolve the treaties, to assist him with our persons and abilities in a parliamentary way.
SIR ROBERT PHELIPS moved that an injunction should be laid upon everyone of the House, upon pain of expelling and what other punishment the House can inflict, not to discover the resolution of the House upon the King's message.
SIR HUMPHREY MAY. What needs this? Let Rome, let Spain, let all Christendom know.
SIR HENRY MILDMAY. The discovering our unwillingness has [f. 98] done us hurt, the discovering our willingness can do us none.
The Attorney General and Sir William Byrd came in message from the Lords to desire a meeting to clear such doubts as may arise among us upon the opening the King's wants, the number 24. The Prince will be there. That according to his Majesty's command, the Treasurer had made a report of the King's wants among them and they conceived the like had been made to us by some member of our House; further, to signify that some doubts had risen among them, and therefore desired a meeting to clear such doubts as may arise among us.
SIR EDWIN SANDYS. There are 2 terms of our meetings with the Lords, conference and audience; this only an audience. To answer that the House had taken the message into consideration and are resolved to give a meeting what time and place they will.
SIR HUMPHREY MAY moved no man might be at the committee but those that are of it.
SIR NATHANIEL RICH. Directly against the order of the House to forbid any to go.
The same messengers came again from the Lords to signify the time of meeting to be presently, the place in the Painted Chamber.
V. DIARY OF SIR THOMAS JERVOISE, HAMPSHIRE RECORD OFFICE, 44M69/F4/20/1
Thursday, 11th March
SIR RICHARD WESTON, report. Pal[atinate]. Since Mich[aelmas]/
SIR BENJAMIN RUDYARD. If this Parliament fail, it will be the last of Parliaments, and the want of Parliaments have been the cause of all our misery, which we now desire to redress. Motion, that a selected committee may be chosen of the members of this House to meet with a committee of the Lords to advise of what course may best [be] taken for our defence. [Blank]
[p. 51] [Conference with the Lords]
The Prince's speech, March 12 [sic], 1623, to a committee of both Houses. My Lord Treasurer having by his Majesty's command made relation of the present necessities of his Majesty's estate, some doubts did arise what the King's ends might be. I was then present when this doubt did arise. I therefore thought it fit to give my sense thereof. The King intends by this you should see that upon your counsel, he was not able himself of his own strength without our assistance to engage himself in a war. Thereupon, their Lordships commanded me to declare it unto you, fearing that the same doubts might arise among you. And I conceived that his desire was not we should consider of his own estate presently, but when we have resolved upon the first, then it will appear it is no difficult matter to establish his own estate. [p. 52] And other doubts there were in my own mind that some among you might fear that when those things should be settled, the King would be slow in calling you here again. I will put you in mind of the last part of the King's speech, that he hopes he shall be in love with Parliaments. But having occasion to send to the King about other business, I find him willing and very willing to call you oftener. This I speak of mine own head. I desire you to consider how far this business is gone and that it requires expedition (as the King, my father, desired in his last speech), how far forth the year is past and how far you have exasperated those that hereafter may be your enemies. Prepare yourselves so that you may not only show your teeth but bite. [p. 53] Also, if there be occasion, consider also how much the King's honour and mine also is engaged. If you should fail me in this, it would be dishonourable as well to yourselves as to me; but if you effect my desires, you shall oblige me who am now first entering into the world and when time shall serve hereafter, you shall not think your labour ill-bestowed.
VI. DIARY OF JOHN LOWTHER, CUMBRIA ARCHIVE CENTRE, CARLISLE, DLONS/L/2/1
[11 March 1624]
A bill to reverse a decree in Chancery.
The Prince's bill of Cornwall reported upon committee and amended. Engrossed.
SIR RICHARD WESTON relate[s] what loss in customs by war cannot yet be done at present. He short. Not the King's pleasure, nor for the times, to discover his wants nor how.
[f. 28v] Ireland established by commissioners. Navy cost [£]53,000; last five [years] [£]40,000. Ports will be charged.
SIR BENJAMIN RUDYARD. We have had his Majesty's advice, now woos us again with new offers of Parliament. Let us now cherish it, since the want causes all those mischiefs. Let not the King bear all blame [for] his part. That with our own breath may blow us [up]. To take care of our liberty but not to embrace it so hard as kill it. Now the King's judgement that purpose not, but the consequences of our own advice. Let us not be troubled with the vast charge but our own security, which the papist may perhaps cast as a diversion. Let us make a Council of War to secure Ireland, ports, Low Countries, the charge, besides to provide somewhat for his Majesty for his charge well bestowed.
[f. 29] SIR JAMES PERROT. Before a Council of War, to appoint a committee to consider the state of the King and kingdom, first the revenues, the abilities, etc. Then to join to the Lords, having the laws passed.
SIR H[ENRY] MILDMAY. That all depends of this Parliament. He delivers his opinion, nemo laeditur [ni]si [?non] a se ipso. He doubts not but we will contribute to our advice. I think it will no ways hurt us to offer to join if the King declare. Was not this the desire last Parliament? How we offered to join estates and lives to his declaration in Parliament.
[MR. THOMAS] WENTWORTH. To consider if necessity to send men to Low Countries, the number, the charge and how to raise it, paries cum proximus ardet.
S[ECRETARY] CONWAY. To satisfy the King that he may declare, else you [will be at] war before he declare.
[MR. EDWARD] ALFORD. To divide the question, first, for the war, after, the King's debts as less necessary, but how to supply a consequence.
[f. 29v] [SIR EDWIN] SANDYS. Counsel endangered with precipitation, executed with delay, therefore now but one stop. We advise a breach, he replies, how will you assist? The war is a consequence, but not first, for rebus repititis et denunciatis is a cause of war. Therefore, we to answer that he declaring, we will assist, but our estate and enabling is first considerable.
SIR ROBERT MANSELL. War just provision. That Spain holds his greatness by our courtesy. His face considered that we may provide.
Resolved, upon question, nullo contradicente, that in pursuit of our advice, we will be ready, upon his Majesty's declaration to dissolve the treaties, to assist with our persons and abilities in a parliamentary course.
A message, that the Lords having received a relation of his estate as we, that there may be a conference, 24 of the Lords, we proportionately.
VII. ANONYMOUS DIARY, KENNETH SPENCER RESEARCH LIBRARY, UNIVERSITY OF KANSAS, MS E237
After long debate what answer we must return his Majesty's speech to the committee of both Houses, SIR EDWIN SANDYS moved that we should not enter into debate of a war until it might appear to be a just war, and therefore advised that first there should be made a direct demand for the restitution of the Palatinate, which denied then to proceed.
SIR ROBERT PHELIPS moved that there might be all endeavours used for restitution of the Palatinate and preparations for war at home, and the next winter would be time enough to enter into the war.
But both these motions were very unpleasing to the House, but it was resolved, by the question, to send to this effect: after thanks rendered, to say that after his Majesty had declared himself, we would, in pursuit of our former advice, assist him and maintain his honour with our lives and abilities in a parliamentary manner.
But the first parts of this day's work was, by direction, SIR RICHARD WESTON'S relation from [f. 101] my Lord Treasurer of the King's great expense upon the treaty for restoring of the Palatinate and for the Prince's journey into Spain, which did amount to £660,000 with some odd pounds.
My Lord Treasurer declaring the like to the Lords in the Upper House, it bred some doubts among the Lords that it tended to supply the King and not to provide for the war, and thereupon the Lords sent us a message that my Lord Treasurer's narration had bred some doubts among them and they conceived the Chancellor's might do the like to us, and therefore desired we would name a committee for a present conference, and that the Prince himself would only speak unto us.
So the committee went, and the Prince said lest that by the narration doubts might arise among us that the King intended that his Majesty did expect in the first place some supply for himself, the Prince assured us that he did not, but that we would first provide for the war if it did ensue and after for the King in his due time, and that this was now his Highness's [f. 101v] first action that he had appeared in and that we should be tender of his honour, which he held engaged, and thereby might come a time that his Highness would render us thanks for it.
[f. 107v] The 14th [sic] of March, the Lords sent to us to have a meeting in the Painted Chamber and that the Prince would speak to us himself, who made this short and pithy speech unto us.
The speech was framed upon two doubts: the first conceived here, the second propounded by himself. Then [he] used an heroic speech. But first, [he] told us that the Lord Treasurer, by his Majesty's command, had declared to the Lords the present necessity upon the King's estate. Whereupon a doubt arising among their Lordships what the King's ends might be therein, his Highness thought fit to give his own sense thereof, and lest the like doubt might also have risen among the House of Commons, their Lordships had commanded him to declare as much to them which was thus. That the King did not intend by that declaration that we should presently enter into consideration of the relieving his estate, but to let us see and know that he could not of himself and upon his own estate maintain the war that might ensue upon our advices, but intended that, in the first place, we should provide for the defence and safety of the kingdom, and when we have resolved this first, then it should appear a thing of no great difficulty to settle the King's estate in his due time, and this was the resolution of the first doubt.
Another doubt his Highness moved of himself. It may be some may fear or conceive that when these things shall be settled, the King would be slow to call us together again. For this, his Highness would have them call to mind the latter part of the King's answer unto us: it should not be his fault if he were not in love with Parliaments. And having occasion lately to send unto the King, he found his Majesty willing, and very willing, to call us often to meet in Parliament. But 3 things his Highness wished them to consider of. First, how far this business was gone already. Secondly, how far the year was run on. Thirdly, how far we had exasperated those whom we conceive may be our enemies. (3 good items.) Therefore, it was fit to use expedition, and so to provide that we might not only show our teeth and do no more, but also be able to bite when there should be cause.
[f. 108] One thing more the Prince added, but this he told them they must take as spoken from himself, and certainly it was principe dignum, a most heroic speech: Gentlemen, I pray you think seriously of this business. Take it to heart and consider in it, first, my father's honour, secondly, mine, and more particularly mine, because it is my new entering into the world. If in this you shall fail me, you shall not only dishonour and discourage me but bring dishonour upon yourselves. But if we went on with courage and showed alacrity and readiness in this business, we should so oblige him to us now that he would never forget it hereafter, and when time did serve we should find our loves and our labours well bestowed.
This conclusion did so take us that we all prayed God to bless him, and we had cause to honour him.
VIII. DIARY OF EDWARD NICHOLAS, TNA, SP 14/166
Thursday, 110 Martii 1623
An act for the reversing of a report of Sir Edward Leech et aliorum and a decree made by the now Lord Keeper in a cause between George Morgan and William [sic] Bowdler, [William] Megges and others, and to confirm a decree made in the same cause by the Lord Chancellor Bacon. 1. L.
CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER. That the consideration of what his Majesty shall lose by his customs if he undertake a war was the reason why it was so long before he could be prepared to make a relation to this House of [f. 65v] what his Majesty commanded him, and the Lord Treasurer to acquaint the House withal. I will only report the great expenses which his Majesty has been put unto, which by the deceivable treaties of the Spanish.
[Blank] Remaining, all deductions made, that the King has expended in these deceivable treaties £290,030
[Blank] The ships are in a reasonable readiness [blank]. There is an establishment begun in Ireland and with some time it is hoped it shall be well provided [blank]. [f. 67] [Blank] 4,400 ton[s]. [Blank] There was a commission for the viewing of the forts of this kingdom granted by the King, whose certificate thereof is and will be seen. [Blank]
SIR BENJAMIN RUDYARD. We have heard and read his Majesty's wise advice and counsel. [Blank] Besides, his Majesty has taken notice of our loves to him in quenching of the sparkles here dispersed. Would have us cherish his Majesty's affection to Parliaments, for it is the ill success of Parliaments that has bred all the ill that is befallen us. [f. 67v] He loves this House as well as any but he would not kill it with too strict embracements. We may blow up this House with gunpowder with our own breath. [Blank] He doubts if this Parliament fail it will be the last of Parliaments. [Blank] We are to acknowledge his Majesty's judgement. We advised his Majesty to a war, he proposed how we were able [to] make good the breach. He would not have us be frightened of the charge of a present war. [Blank] That we should resolve of assisting first the Low Countrymen, who are a great part of the strength of this kingdom. [f. 68] Would have us send a message to the Lords to join with us in appointing a select committee with the Lords, to advise in the manner of a Council of War of the strengthening of Ireland and the fortifying of the forts of this kingdom. We hear of his Majesty's wants. He would have us present his Majesty with some supply thereof besides the maintenance of war. [Blank]
SIR HENRY MILDMAY says that we may say, as the philosopher, omnia mecum porto, we now carry all our fortunes with us; and if we fail now, we shall be but spectacles of ruin and desolation. If we had had the last Parliament the like occasion, we should have with tears of joy expressed. He would not have us defer our lingering hopes, but second our advice to his Majesty and express the intentions and of our hearts in a full and noble manner.
MR. [THOMAS] WENTWORTH would have us first consider the assisting of the Low Countries.
- 1. Would have us consider here whether it be not necessary that we send aid to the Low Countries.
- 2. What number of men we should send. [f. 68v] This to be [blank] at a committee.
- 3. What money will maintain for some months a competent number of forces with them?
- 4. How this money is to be levied.
The reasons why we should assist them are their nearness in situation to us, their religion being the same with ours, the Queen [of] Bohemia and her children's being there; the fire of war that is with them should make us think of the danger of our kingdom. He would have us presently consider of the assistance we ought to give to the Low Countries and after a committee to consider of the other things mentioned in this business.
SECRETARY CONWAY would have us consider the extremity we are now in. Either we must go on with the treaty or declare a war. He would have us first consider how we will assist the King and what we will do to fortify our advice, and then we shall hear his Majesty's declaration and resolution, and afterwards it will be most proper for us to consider what shall be best to be done if the treaties be broken. But until we [f. 69] have resolved what we will do for the enabling of the King for a war, we shall not know his Majesty's resolution.
SIR EDWARD CECIL. That 2 points of the King's answer are that we should make a just war, and how to maintain it. That war is just which is necessary, which no man can deny. He thinks it is impossible for the Spaniards to restore the Palatinate. He would have us appoint a committee to go to the Lords to join with us in a petition to the King that if his Majesty will declare himself, we will maintain our advice.
MR. [EDWARD] ALFORD would have us divide the question, first, to consider of the maintenance and supply for a war, and after to consider of the supplying of the King's debts. And after we are so resolved to maintain, to consider how to maintain; and would have the Speaker to hold everyone to the question.
SIR EDWIN SANDYS. That there is no greater prejudice to consultation than precipitation, nor in execution than delay. Our advice has been that we think it unfit for his Majesty to continue the treaties, and his Majesty thereon has given us a wise answer. He thinks it not a thing of immediate consequence to rush on a word. We must, to make a war just, first to ask a restitution of the wrong, which if we receive not, then we have [f. 69v] a just war. He would have us send to the King that in pursuit of our advice, we will do what shall be fitting in a due course to assist his Majesty with our persons and fortunes according to our abilities. It is a thing of very necessary consequence to take away the grievances which lie on the subjects. He would have us send to the Lords that we may have a committee of both Houses to consider what answer we shall give to his Majesty. Our adversary gives out that they will throw a bone among us that shall trouble us all. He would have us pass by an offence rather than give them occasion to rejoice at our dissenting.
MR. CHRISTOPHER BROOKE would not have us send a message today to the Lords. Not as yet make a committee, but here to debate it at large and then send to the Lords for a conference. He would have us send to the King that if his Majesty shall declare himself, we will assist him so as ourselves may subsist.
SIR [HENRY] ANDERSON would have it put to the question whether we shall assist the King or no in pursuit of our advice.
SIR EDWARD COKE says under the rose, that this kingdom never thrived so well as when it had wars with Spain. The war is just that is to regain what is held from a man. Our King has demanded the Palatinate and sent word that if they delayed the restitution thereof, his Majesty would take it for a denial. They give us delays, [f. 70] which is a denial, and therefore we have no means to recover the Palatinate but by war, for we can send no process. That if Ireland, the back door, be secured, the navy be prepared, and the Low Countrymen our friends, he fears neither Pope, Turk, Spain nor the devil of hell. He wishes that the proposition of the King's answer may be read tomorrow concerning that point wherein he says he will declare himself when we shall discover our resolution of assistance. Nec quies gentium sine armis, etc.
SIR WILLIAM HERBERT says we know not whether the King will have war or no until we have declared our resolution; and he would if any shall wander from the question (which is whether we will make good our advice to him or no) that the Speaker should hold him to the question.
SIR ROBERT HARLEY would have us hold to the question of this day, which is whether that if the King shall declare himself to break off the treaties, we will assist him in the pursuit of our advice with our fortunes and lives or no.
MR. [JOHN] GLANVILLE. That he sees it is the desire of all of us that the King would declare himself in a war, and he observes that the King will not put a scorn upon us if we will resolve when we heard and considered his estate and the state of those that are like to be our assistants. He would have us give our opinions to the King that we think his Majesty may lawfully [f. 70v] undertake a war, and that this should be put to the question at first, and the second that we shall make a declaration of our resolution to assist the King in pursuit of our advice. But he would have the manner of our declaration of assistance carefully couched that it may not prejudice us, but express our true intentions therein.
MR. SOLICITOR thinks that we are not to satisfy the King concerning the satisfying of his conscience for the justness of the war. He thinks that everyone is resolved to assist the King. He would have us declare that we will assist and pursue our advice with our persons and fortunes in a general manner and after upon a conference with the Lords to consider of the particulars.
SIR ROBERT PHELIPS. That the King did not make a doubt whether he could make a just war or no, but when we had declared our intentions of assistance he would declare himself. He would have us declare that if his Majesty shall declare the treaties to be broken, that we will make good our advice to his Majesty's [sic] and after that we have resolved thereon by question, that we desire a conference with the Lords for the expressing of such our declaration.
SIR NATHANIEL RICH would have it put to the question whether [f. 71] we think there [?is] anything in the doubts alleged or propounded by the King that should retard or defer his Majesty's resolution to break off both the treaties, and the other part of the question should be that in pursuit of our advice we will assist his Majesty. He would have our resolution of assistance to be by a general acclamation, not by question, for that the manner thereof is as much as the matter; and he would have a conference with the Lords for the expressing of our resolution to assist his Majesty.
It is the resolution of the House that it shall not be put to the question whether the King may, with a safe conscience, make a war or no because it is not by the King propounded to us.
It is ordered, by question, no one contradicting it, that in pursuit of our advice, we will be ready, upon his Majesty's declaration to dissolve both treaties, to assist him with our persons and abilities in a parliamentary manner.
It is the resolution of the House that tomorrow this shall be debated on and then a resolution to be agreed on concerning a message to the Lords about the expressing of this our resolution to his Majesty.
Message from the Lords signifying that according to his Majesty's commandment, relation of his Majesty's estate having been made by the Lord Treasurer to their Lordships whereon some doubts have arisen, [f. 71v] and that the Lords (supposing the like relation has been here) to clear all doubts that may arise between us on the occasion of that business, their Lordships desire a meeting with all convenient speed for a conference; their number is 24, and desire a proportionable number of this House. No time nor place.
CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER thinks we should send word that we have no doubts here.
SIR EDWIN SANDYS would have us answer that the like relation has been here made, but we have had no doubts here among us but are agreed to give his Majesty a satisfactory answer. He leaves it to our consideration whether this answer shall be sent by messengers of our own or no.
Our answer is that we will give a meeting to their Lordships with a proportionable number as is desired and leave it to their Lordships to name the place and time.
The Lords sent word again that their Lordships desire the time may be presently in the Painted Chamber.
Our answer, that we will meet accordingly.
IX. DIARY OF SIR WILLIAM SPRING, HOUGHTON LIBRARY, HARVARD UNIVERSITY, MS ENG. 980
Thursday, the 11th of March
An act for confirming a rent out of the lands of [Edward] Fisher to the Bishop of Coventry and Lichfield.
An act to reverse a decree of the now Lord Keeper and to confirm a decree made by the late Lord Chancellor concerning [Richard] Bowdler's case for alum mines.
SIR EDWARD COKE reports the amendment of the Prince's bill for leases of duchy lands. It is passed to be engrossed.
The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER reports the King's expenses since 1619, extraordinary since the treaties and deceits of Spain:
[p. 101] That the navy is in good case, that Ireland is well-established in church and commonwealth and that it is hoped it will well subsist of itself. That the charge of the navy is [£]20,000 less yearly charge than it was 5 years since, then [£]50,000, now not [£]30,000; and yet that there is 4,000 ton[s] of shipping of the King's navy increased.
SIR BENJAMIN RUDYARD offers to consideration the King's judgement and goodness towards us to call a Parliament, and to be advised by it. Moves to make the King in love with Parliaments that they may not be few, for from the scarcity of them arises all the evils to the commonwealth. That it is good to make much of liberties, but not to hug them until we stifle them. There is more danger to blow up the Parliament with our breaths than with our adversaries' powder, etc. That the return of the Prince is the turn of Christendom. Give him all content with a Parliament, also, lest else we be lost from generation to generation, and that this may else be the last Parliament, etc. That the King can demand nothing but what follows as a consequence of our advice, and we ought not to be frightened at the charge. We must look to speedy defence, for Spain has doubted us long and will attempt upon us suddenly. Moves a committee for a Council of War, for to strengthen Ireland, the ports at home, to unite with the Low Countries, to sweeten the King to Parliaments and to be helpful to him in the present business besides.
[p. 102] SIR JAMES PERROT hopes that he shall never see any discontent between the King and the Parliament but that all shall have cause to joy in their happy agreement, as they have now concerning his taking advice from them. Yet wishes that the ports at home may be secured, and that the enemies that are discontented among us, the Jesuits, were removed; and that before a Council of War were appointed, 2 especial things may be considered: the estate of the King and kingdom and that a committee might be appointed for them; that the King might be acquainted with the grievances in traffic, and that if he please to redress that and to pass laws prepared, then to think to give him what we may, etc., etc.
SIR HENRY MILDMAY moves that we do so declare ourselves to the King as may draw on him to declare himself to us. That it may be said of us as sometime by the philosopher, we carry all about us, for the welfare of the commonwealth is now in us; and as one said nemo laeditur nisi a seipso, so if our fears and jealousies hurt us not we may do well. Moves that we make good our advice by contributions and that our contributions may follow the King's declaration. To do now as was protested should be done the last Parliament, that we now take advantage or lost forever, and that we may now do that which uno ictu may cut off all the hopes of the popish faction, etc., etc.
[p. 103] MR. [THOMAS] WENTWORTH, the lawyer, moves that we take heed to avoid Cancer, that snarling sign, and to go on smoothly. That for the general, he knows not what haste it does require, but for the particular, he is sure the Low Countries needs haste for they are almost swallowed up already, and to further this, moves consideration of 4 particulars:
- 1. The important necessity of sudden aid.
- 2. The number of men to supply their want.
- 3. The sum needful to support and transport those men.
- 4. The means to raise this money.
He thinks the first of these is proper for the consideration of the whole House, the other 3 fitter for a committee, for the great danger, calling for sudden help, it is apparent in the great armies and many now about them, and therefore it were fit to be resolved on before the recess of the House. Their nearness to us forewarns us to look to our own house when the fire is close to us. The ancient amity between us as in the preamble of many statutes for subsidies in Queen Elizabeth's time might be seen, the band of religion being vinculum inter deum et homines, and that it will else in the day of judgement concerning them (if we help them not) be said in that you did it not to these, you did it not to me. And further, that they have among them the daughter of our King, which is part of his flesh for pater et filius una caro; the neglect of them is a neglect of ourselves, either as we are men or as we are Christians; but much speech is needless for persuasion to this assembly, etc., etc. Moves, first, for resolution of a supply, quo modo afterward.
[p. 104] SIR EDWIN SANDYS. There is no greater enemy to counsel than precipitation, none to action but delay. This is counsel's day, and one step this day is enough. Some doubt what to answer the King if, upon our advice, he should demand how to make good the consequence (which is war), but I think that war is not so immediately a necessary consequence, for if we mean a just war, it must be thus qualified: bellum tunce fuste geriture rebus repetitis et palam denunciatum. It is true the Palatinate has been an ancient confederate and adherent to this crown (besides the late interests) and Spain usurps it, or it is at least detained by the powers of Spain. Yet it must first be demanded and then if not restored, denounce war, and then let the King know that to this we will make good in (what we are able) our advice; and as the charge of this will be great to the state, we must look in what state the kingdom is to bear it, and first enable the land, take away grievances, restore decays, and then will all be more able and willing to deal freely in that kind. He moves that we should promise that as we shall be enabled, we will extend our aid.
MR. [CHRISTOPHER] BROOKE. The Parliament is of divers kinds, sometime a court of judicature, sometime a council of state, and in that it is now exercised. He understands that by the late relation of the King's expenses and debts, it is implied that the King is able to do no more; he likes well that the king does yet intend to do somewhat. He says this is called the Prince's Parliament, wishes the bonum nomen may have bonum omen. He moves that consideration may be had of the charge of the most important affairs, as of Ireland and for the Low Countries and the navy, and to estimate these, and accordingly to offer the King for these particulars, and not to promise in so general and indefinite terms.
[p. 105] SIR HENRY ANDERSON would have it ordered, by question, that we will make good our advice and no more.
SIR EDWARD COKE moves that a parliamentary resolution be taken in these things, whether the war should be, and whether it be just. The necessity of the war must be for our defence and for the recovery of the Palatinate, and if it be with Spain we need not fear it (for under the rose be it spoken), the war of England with Spain is England's best prosperity, as he heard 2 citizens say long since, and since the motion of this has been made to the House, he thinks he is 7 years younger than he was. The justice of the war must be maintained by canon law, the common law will not judge that. Some say they have not denied it. Did not the King demand it, and said he would take delay for denial? We see it is delayed, and so denied, and then just. For this point it is not amiss to confer with the Lords, but for matter of maintenance it must be here propounded and determined, it belongs properly to us. Let us begin with Spain else they will begin with us. Now is the fit time; delay now will undo us. Secure the back door, Ireland, strengthen the navy, join friendship with the Low Countries, and come Spain, pope or devil and we fear them not; but first it will be necessary to have the King declare himself and his purposes, and thinks he will not be drawn to it by our general offers. Wishes the consideration of these things, and to draw on the King to an absolute declaration.
SIR R[OBERT] MANSELL sees probabilities and shows for war but wishes that there may still be peace. In war are 4 principal points considerable: the justice of the quarrel, the preparation of means, the choice of leaders and the opportunity, etc., etc. We may have a just quarrel for the honour of the royal blood, and for the honour of Christ's blood, too. The war with Spain is but a bugbear and Spain is for an enemy but as a Goliath before David. He holds his greatness by our charity, etc., etc. He moves that the charge for the preparation of the war may be estimated and then the means how to raise it, etc.
[p. 106] SIR WILLIAM HERBERT moves that the King may be petitioned to declare and we conditionally to make him a promise to draw him on.
SIR ROBERT HARLEY moves that the House will manifest that if the King will declare himself to accept of our advice, that then we in a parliamentary way will make it good.
MR. [JOHN] GLANVILLE conceives that we are first to advise the King for the honour and justice of the war. That the King has in effect promised a war, in that it is a consequence of our advice, and he following that (for he has said he will put no scorn upon us) it is as much as if he had declared it, and also it appears in that he has said that he will not leave the Palatinate unrestored. The justice of the war has been sufficiently expressed and the King has assured us he will entertain no peace but with our advice. Moves that, first, the justice of the war may be put to question and by the vote of the House cleared, and, next, to conceive such a form of words as may draw the King to declare himself and yet not prejudice the liberty of the House.
The SOLICITOR, SIR ROBERT HEATH, says it is not proper to us to determine whether there shall be war or not, it suffices for us to draw on the King to a declaration of his meaning. After the dissolution of the treaties, every man is willing to assist, but some think generals will not content the King. He thinks they will give best satisfaction, for the reputation of a King is not only in his coffers but in the love and readiness of his subjects, for this will chiefly draw on assistance abroad to know how forward and ready we are to promise all service and assistance. It cannot be fit in particular yet, because we understand not the particular necessaries for the war; and since this place can better give counsel than keep it, a private counsel for the war is most convenient and fittest to enter into consultation of it.
[p. 107] SIR R[OBERT] PHELIPS moves that no speech of the war be taken up among us, but leave that to the King. It will make much dispute among us; it is needful for us only to labour the making good our advice by promise of assistance for the present.
SIR NATHANIEL RICH says that our reasons delivered to the King are sufficient motives to him to cause his declaration, and that the King's own reasons, for which he retards the declaration, do all rather require that he should declare. He would have the House by a general acclamation promise that we will assist the King and no more.
The RECORDER fears not that the King will fall from our advice, because he thanks us for it and promises to put no scorn on us; therefore, moves that we now should not deal in an unnecessary and improper question, of war, or of the justice of war, but of the means to support the war in case it be. He conceives the King will declare the justice and conscience of his intendments, but first will be resolved of the means before he express himself. Therefore, moves that the question that shall be put to pass among us should be to this effect: that when the King shall declare himself to follow our advice, we will be ready to assist him and make it good with our bodies and goods to the uttermost.
MR. [EDWARD] ALFORD excepts against "uttermost".
SIR EDWARD COKE will have it "persons and abilities".
SIR THOMAS JERMYN says that this question is like the philosopher's stone, which when the alchemist thinks and hopes is near, suddenly he breaks and loses all his hopes. He moves that the resolution of our abilities in a parliamentary way may be concluded.
By vote of the House, it was ordered that it should be presented unto the King in these words: that in pursuit of our advice, we will be ready (upon his Majesty's declaration to dissolve both treaties) to assist his Majesty with our persons and abilities in a parliamentary course.
[p. 108] SIR R[OBERT] PHELIPS. That an order may be made that no man, upon pain of the greatest penalty the House can inflict, should dare to reveal what the House has determined this day.
SIR THOMAS JERMYN seconds it, and wishes notice to be taken of them that immediately went out after the resolution.
SIR HUMPHREY MAY and SIR HENRY MILDMAY desire it may be published, for that some unwillingness and difficulties among us have been reported abroad and it has hurt us, and let them that rejoiced at that now fret their hearts to see so free and unanimous consent among us.
A message came from the Lords by the Attorney [General] and Sir William Byrd, that whereas upon relation of the King's estate made by the Lord Treasurer unto that House some doubts had arisen there, and for that it might be the like upon the same reason might happen to us, the Lords, in regard the foundation for the endeavours concerning that must first arise from us, do desire a meeting to satisfy such doubts if any have happened to us.
SIR EDWIN SANDY says that the usual meetings with the Lords is two-fold, for conference or audience. That this is but for audience because we have conceived no doubts nor know the cause of theirs; yet because it may breed no ill blood between us, nor delay time, it were fit our committee might have liberty to confer with them if need require.
This was not allowed.
Answer is returned that we will meet them, and they did so presently.
X. DIARY OF SIR THOMAS HOLLAND, BODL., TANNER MS 932
11 Martii 1623
An act for explaining of a former act made 230 Eliz., entitled, An act for the assurance of [£]82 per annum to the Bishop of Coventry and Lichfield.
First read. An act for making void a report made by Sir Edward Leech [blank] whereupon a decree was made in Chancery against [Richard] Bowdler, [George] Morgan and others.
[SIR EDWARD] COKE, report. The Prince's bill for making leases in Cornwall amended and the amendments read twice. Put to the engrossing.
[f. 42] MR. CHANCELLOR OF THE [blank], report. The charge of his Majesty might have been [blank] what his Majesty shall lose by his customs if there be a war, which the customers cannot upon so small a time [blank]. He only reports the deceivable/
[f. 43] For Ireland, establishing begun; if pursued, it will subsist. The navy cost him over 5 years at first £53,000; this last 5 year[s] £33,000. For the tonnage of ships, £19,000; new ships 10. [Blank]
[SIR BENJAMIN] RUDYARD. We have heard his Majesty's answer to our advice according to the goodness of his nature and greatness of his judgement. It is the ill success of Parliament has caused this. [Blank] If this Parliament fail, it will be the last of Parliaments; if well, it will be the beginning of many. [Blank] Let us take into consideration our defence. To entreat the Lords to constitute a committee in the nature of a Council of War with us. [Blank] That we should offer to his Majesty some proportion for his Majesty's expense.
[f. 43v] [SIR JAMES] PERROT. That a committee may be selected. The state of the King and kingdom, [blank] of his revenues, [blank] of kingdom for trade, which being done [blank] then with a committee to treat with the Lords.
[SIR HENRY] MILDMAY. All our hopes of future happiness is embarked in this Parliament. [Blank] If we do not hurt ourselves by our jealousies, we shall be safe. Let us not doubt to declare ourselves according to our profession the last Parliament. Let us uno ictu cut off all the hopes of the popish faction of the kingdom and presently to go on.
[MR. THOMAS] WENTWORTH. For the Low Countries, the flame of the Spanish sword has invaded. Urgent necessity of sending speedily. What number [blank] next what sum of money for certain month. [f. 44] For the first, the [blank] for expedition and then [blank]. First, location; second, by ancient confederation; the 3rd, religion.
SECRETARY CONWAY. The Low Countries are here now to bow to the [blank]. If we go on with treaties, we lose the Low Countries; if we go not on, we must have a war; if we will have a war, we must assist him. Therefore, to go to that business is most expedient that his Majesty may declare himself.
[MR. WILLIAM] CORYTON. That a committee be selected to advise herein, which being done then to desire a meeting with the Lords.
[SIR GEORGE] MORE. There has passed from us an advice that the treaties should be broken. It has pleased his Majesty to give a speech full of wisdom and full of grace. He has expressed doubts and his inclination to peace. Yet though he thinks war malum, yet he thinks it necessarium upon cause. First, whether to advise for a war and then for support of that war. [f. 44v] Before we descend into particulars, we advise for a war, then whether a just war and then how to support it; then to petition his Majesty to declare the breach of the treaties.
[SIR EDWARD] CECIL. For peace, what need we meddle with it. His Majesty has bestowed great time in it and spent more money in treaty than this year's expense in war will be how great so ever. War concerns our lives, children and estate[s]. We must satisfy his Majesty how it is just. Let us have a committee to speak with the Lords and declare ourselves for the war.
[MR. EDWARD] ALFORD. To go to the Lords it is too soon; so is it yet for a committee, for upon mature deliberation grows our resolution. [Blank] For the war and King's debts will I divide and address myself. First, to the war the war, that we may supply, afterwards quomodo. If any go from it, that we may hold him to it.
[f. 45] [SIR EDWIN] SANDYS. No greater enemy to consultation than precipitation, therefore this day we are to proceed but one step. Our advice is that his Majesty should not continue the treaties; his Majesty's answer was let me see how you will assist me. He dissents from them that will rush into a war. It must be just. The occasion now is the taking away the Palatinate. There must be a demand and then see whether he will demand. So to return to his Majesty, that if he will be pleased to follow our advice, we will be ready with our persons and fortunes to assist him; and that the grievances and decay of trade may be taken away, so shall the ability of the people enlarge the assistance. Some of the intestine enemies have given out that within 2 or 3 days such a bone will be thrown in to divide the two Houses.
[f. 45v] [MR. CHRISTOPHER] BROOKE. This Parliament is called the Prince's Parliament. It is bonum nomen, so I hope it is bonum omen. I will not wish a present going to the Lords without further debate. To say we will advise, that we will assist with our abilities and fortunes, but first to see where the charge will lie and therefore to consider how it may be done. He do[es] not think the King of Spain can suddenly invade us and therefore, first, we are to look for Ireland for [Shane] O'Neill's return; next, for the Low Countries, to send some aid at our own charge.
[SIR HENRY] ANDERSON. That we may put it to the question whether with one consent we will not make good the advice we have given.
[SIR EDWARD] COKE. That we ought to have war to recover the Palatinate and defend ourselves. For wars with Spain, England never did do better than when we had wars with Spain. Is the war just? No doubt of it, for it is to recover that which is taken from us, they denying it. But for sending a message to the Lords, it is not time. The supply must come from us and not from the Lords, which must be upon consultation. [f. 46] Delay is dangerous. Whosoever moves it wound[s] the cause. Let us behave ourselves so as the King may declare himself. We may have the propositions which the King have made may be read tomorrow, and readily give satisfaction.
[SIR ROBERT] MANSELL. That there must be a war. A territory is to be gained which is not to be without war, but he prays there may not be a war. Preparations for war. Our enemy is potent, therefore we ought to be sufficiently prepared, therefore that a charge be cast up.
SIR WILLIAM HERBERT. To advise and to desire the King to follow our advice.
[SIR WILLIAM] STRODE. That we may go with the Lords in this as we have done, and therefore that a committee be made and that we may consider what to deliver to his Majesty concerning this business.
[SIR ROBERT] HARLEY. That we may get to the question whether the first we shall not make a manifestation in all dutiful manner to support our advice.
[MR. JOHN] GLANVILLE. The work of this day to be two: first, how it may consist with his conscience and honour, and then the justness of the war; then to make a war and not to go through, the king says is but to show his teeth. [f. 46v] Secondly, for the present manifestation of ourselves, all ought to proceed from this House for that we answer for shires and the Lords but for themselves. He moves that a question be made.
MR. SOLICITOR. To return an answer to the King's last speech. It is not fit for us to determine the King's conscience and honour. Next, there is no necessity we shall prescribe. It is worse to entertain a treaty than a breach. The King demands, if he shall fall into a war, will we assist him. If we shall be faint, it will dishearten all our friends, for it is soon carried. Let us therefore, with general acclamation, say we will with our lives and fortunes assist him, but not in any particular until his due time, and in the meantime go to a question.
[MR. JOHN] WHISTLER moves that it may be put off until some other day because it is a matter of such consequence.
[f. 47] [SIR ROBERT] PHELIPS. This day's work is single. To treat of war is not now seasonable; it appertains to the King. We are to justify our advice that if it please the King to follow our advice, we will assist his Majesty for the present so far as stands with conveniency.
[SIR DUDLEY] DIGGES. That we may, without one contradicting voice, maintain our advice and join with the Lords.
[SIR NATHANIEL] RICH. That the first question be whether there be any cause why his Majesty shall retard his declaration. Next, he would have it proposed whether we shall maintain our advice, yet that it may be decided by acclamation and not by question, that there may be no doubt of our coldness.
RECORDER. Let us not enter upon a question which the King's speech will not warrant, but it is to think of a fit way of that which the King has propounded to us. Thus, that as many as are of opinion that we shall make answer that we will be ready in person and purse to maintain our advice.
Question, that as many shall think fit to resolve and frame/
[f. 47v] Order. That in pursuit of our advice, we will be ready, upon his Majesty's declaration to dissolve the treaties, to assist with our person and abilities in a parliamentary course.
[SIR ROBERT] PHELIPS. That there be some members of this House that within few hours do give knowledge to the Spanish ambassador of what is here debated, which he shall within few days discover. He therefore moved that no man discover the counsels here debated this day, shall be expelled.
No order made.
[f. 48] The message from the Lords, Attorney [General] and Sir William Byrd, in writing. That according to his Majesty's commandment, relation having been made by the Lord Treasurer to the Lords of his Majesty's estate and the Lords conceived that the like has been to us and thinking that some doubts may be made here as there has been there, they therefore do desire a meeting of a committee of the House to clear all doubts, and the Prince will be there. Their number is 24, and do desire that it may be with all convenient speed if this House think so fit, but does not appoint time nor place.
The answer: that we will give their Lordships a meeting with a proportionable number at such time and place as their Lordships think convenient.
Another message as before: the Lords do wish that the meeting may be presently in the Painted Chamber.
The committee: the 2 Secretaries, Comptroller, Chancellor of the [Ex]chequer, Treasurer, [Sir Edward] Coke, [Sir Edwin] Sandys, [Sir John] Savile, [Sir Dudley] Digges, [Sir Robert] Phelips, [Sir Benjamin] Rudyard.
The report. [Blank]
XI. DIARY OF JOHN PYM, NORTHAMPTONSHIRE RECORD OFFICE, FH/N/C/0050
110 Martii 1623
SIR EDWARD COKE reported the Prince's bill for the Duchy of Cornwall with some alterations.
Yet it was further desired that there might be added an exception of the ancient customary lands. It was likewise doubted that the leases which had been granted (the Prince being under age) were not sufficiently provided for, for the Prince is under the rule of other infants if he make a lease under age rendering rent, it is not good but liable; if without rent or with rent by warrant of attorney, it is a void lease. Concerning which last point was satisfied by SIR JOHN WALTER, that for all other lands the grants were made by commission in whom the estate was, but the duchy lands the lease passed under the Prince's own hand.
MR. CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER. That he could not so suddenly satisfy that doubt what his Majesty should be like to lose in customs by a war, and therefore without deferring the main for this, he would leave it to a more lively information. [f. 24v] Neither would he enter into any long discourse of his Majesty's wants. He had much rather open the ways of relief. Only he would declare what extraordinary expenses had fallen upon the King since Michaelmas 1619. And so he went through the particular totals of disbursements.
In excuse of which 2 impositions he alleged that as they were necessary for the present, so they were laid with condition only to continue until the Parliament.
|There remains clear||[blank]|
|Whereof there is owing||[blank]|
|To the King of Denmark||[blank]|
|To Sir Baptist Hicks||[blank]|
|To [Philip] Burlamachi||[blank]|
|Anticipated of his own revenue||[blank]|
The rest was supplied out of his Majesty's estate and being taken out of the continual and pressing payments has caused much clamour and want.
Concerning the estate of Ireland, it was now established in such a course that if it be pursued it will be able to subsist of itself. That the navy, which heretofore stood his Majesty in £53,000 per annum, was reduced to £30,400. All the ships repaired, divers new built, and 4,000 ton[s] increased. Touching [f. 25] the forces [sic], that a commission had been granted to Sir Richard Moryson, Sir John Ogle and others to survey the forces [sic], with the return of which commissions with the estimate of the charge necessary for the repairing and furnishing of them we might see.
SIR BENJAMIN RUDYARD. We have heard and we have read his Majesty's loving and wise answer to our advice, agreeable to the goodness of his nature and the greatness of his judgement. For wherein can he better express his affections towards us than according to his first comparison where he called himself the husband and the people his wife. Now to woo us afresh by declaring his extraordinary desire to be in love with Parliaments and that he could most gladly spend his days in this commerce and conversation with us. Besides his Majesty vouchsafed to take notice of our love and respect to him by giving us thanks for quenching some distempered sparkles which were cast in among us. I presume so well of the temper of this House that his Majesty's thanks shall not be lost upon us, but that they will rather encourage us to a further deserving. Let us cherish his Majesty's recovered inclination to Parliaments, for believe it, Mr. Speaker, the ill success of Parliaments has been the cause of all the ills which have happened to this kingdom, even of these evils which we seek to redress in this place. And let us not lay all the blame upon the King, for we have had our own heats and passions. I love the liberty of this House as well as any man in it, yet would I be loath to kill it with too strict an embracing, we may strain it so hard as to stifle it. Let us not be over-curious and ingenious in our own overthrow, for I assure you, Sir, we may blow up the House without gunpowder. We may do it with our own breath. Woe be to him that contributes anything towards it. And as long as we can maintain Parliaments, we can never want liberty.
Besides, Mr. Speaker, let us bethink ourselves what has been the cause of calling us here at this time. Has it not been the Prince's happy return out of Spain, who to the hazard of his invaluable person and to the eternal praise of his wisdom has given an happy turn to the affairs of Christendom. If we can make a right use of it, let us seriously consider his interest and not distaste him also with Parliaments, for then are we lost from generation to generation. I am the more vehement in this because I am afraid if this Parliament fail it we be the last of Parliaments. If it go well, it will be the beginning of many and of much good hereafter. Let every man lay this to his heart. Thus much by way or preparation.
Now, by the favour of the House, I will speak something, and that briefly, of the business in hand, wherein we are to acknowledge his Majesty's judgement in that he has not pressed anything unto us but what necessarily follows upon our own premises. For we advise him to break the treaties, and he propounds to us how we will enable him to make good the breach. Let us not affright ourselves with an opinion of the vast charge of undertaking a great war presently, but let us rather take it into our consideration that which is next us, [f. 25v] our security and defence. Certainly, the state of Spain has a good while perceived our inclination to breaking, and I am sure that that state fears no kingdom for an enemy so much as this, so that my great doubt is they will make some attempt presently to disorder us. Wherefore mine opinion is that we should entreat the Lords to join with us in constituting a committee, in the nature of a Council of War, of some expert members of both Houses, and to call others to assist them for our further direction in these particulars: for the securing of Ireland, for strengthening the forces [sic] within the kingdom, for setting out a fleet, for assisting of the Low Countries, which is a main part of our security, and this is all which we shall be able to do this summer. For the charge, I will not speak what it should be. We have heard from an honourable and judicious member of this House an exact relation of the weakness of the King's estate, what he has spent in ambassadors, in the Palatinate, his debts to the King of Denmark and of the charge of the Prince's journey into Spain, which while he was there was for the honour of the kingdom, and it may prove, Mr. Speaker, the best spent money this kingdom has spent in some ages. Wherefore, to conclude, I hold it fit to relieve his Majesty, and to sweeten him towards us we should make him a proportionable present for his own particular besides the charge of our general defence; and what we do let us do quickly, lest we repent too late.
There ensued many other speeches, most men being desirous to show themselves in a plausible matter, yet not altogether without variety of propositions. That before any conclusion of the main, the[re] might be a select committee to make a more exact representation of the state and of the kingdom, and to present it to the Lords. Without any such circumstance to resolve forthwith to make good our advice with a liberal contribution. Another did more honestly than necessarily labour with many reasons to excite us to the assistance of the Low Countries. Some were entangled in the consideration of the general poverty and want in the kingdom. One was so transported with an imaginary success of the war as to hope that, with an army, we might pass through Spain and fetch the Infanta, which was presently answered with a negative acclamation of the House, "No, no".
SIR EDWIN SANDYS. No greater enemy to consultation than precipitation, to execution than delay. The Lords foresaw this question, that war will be a necessary consequence of our advice, sed bellum non juste geritur nisi rebus repetitis et denunciatum. The Palatinate must be demanded. If it be restored, there will be no war; if denied, then the cause of war arises from them. For the present, let us return his Majesty this [f. 26] answer, that we will assist him according to our abilities in pursuit of this advice with our persons and our fortunes. And in the meantime, let us reflect our thoughts on the people and consider in what case the kingdom stands, and enable them to perform this assistance by taking away grievances and restoring the decays of trade.
MR. [JOHN] GLANVILLE conceived we ought to give his Majesty satisfaction in two points:
- 1. How our advice might consist with his conscience and honour.
- 2. Concerning the means to support it.
That therefore we should expedite the first before we go to the 2nd.
MR. SOLICITOR and MR. RECORDER put us right for the first. That his Majesty had [blank] his honour and conscience to his own consideration.
The SOLICITOR added that he doubted a general promise of supply would not satisfy, his Majesty's end in the proposition being not to clear any diffidence which he has in us but to win reputation abroad, and his friends will be more encouraged by a certainty of means than by any declaration at large.
But it was answered by SIR THOMAS JERMYN that in any particular sum there would be less encouragement. This general was like the philosopher's stone, which would multiply in infinitum.
A message came from the Lords that they had received information of the King's estate by my Lord Treasurer. And that the same light which was risen among them might shine to us, they desired a conference, wherein the Prince would be pleased to take away some doubts. Their number was 24.
The conference was consented unto by us, and by other messengers from the Lords the time and place was desired to be presently in the Painted Chamber.
It was agreed, by question, that we should assist his Majesty in pursuit of our advice with our persons and abilities in a parliamentary manner.
An order was made to restrain all from going to the conference which were not of the committee.
After the return of the committees, it was appointed that the Prince's speech should be set down in writing and reported the next morning.
XII. DIARY OF SIR WALTER EARLE, BL, ADD. MS 18,597
Thursday, 11th March
Bill to enable the Prince to make leases of his duchy lands. Passed to engrossing.
The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER'S information touching the King's estate, by appointment from his Majesty. He showed that the business had sooner been dispatched if that point of the loss his Majesty was likely to sustain in his customs in case of a war could have been resolved. In the acquainting us with his Majesty's estate, he thought not fit to enter into long discourse, but only to report the expenses by reason of the treaties and the Palatinate.
Since Michaelmas 1609 [sic], he has spent:
Because the state of Ireland, the ports and the navy are to be looked to.
- 1. For Ireland, such a course has been begun both for the church and commonwealth as in time it will be able to secure itself.
- 2. For the navy, about five years since there was bestowed on it £53,000. The last 5 years' charge amounted but to [£]30,400. The ships have been all repaired and 10 of them new built. The tonnage heretofore was but 15,670 ton[s], but it is now brought to 19,299 ton[s].
- 3. For the ports, a commission has been directed to two [sic], Sir John Ogle and [blank] to view and consider what was fit to be retained and what [blank]. They have returned what the charge will be, not great. This is the effect of that which, etc.
[f. 70] SIR BENJAMIN RUDYARD concerning assistance to be yielded for the support of the advice to dissolve the treaties, the first upon that day.
[f. 72v] SIR JAMES PERROT. That there be a select committee of 20, 30 or more to consider of the state of the King and of the kingdom, and then/
SIR HENRY MILDMAY. The question how far to declare ourselves that we may draw on the King to declare himself. Let us consider where we are and what our danger is. If we hurt not ourselves by our own fears, we shall be safe. I doubt not but we are resolved to make good what by a free contribution [blank]. [f. 73] Shall we make [a] scruple of declaring ourselves conditionally that if [blank]. How ready the last Parliament to with tears of joy. Let us no longer defer the expressing ourselves.
MR. [THOMAS] WENTWORTH. I know not so well for the general but I will pitch upon one particular, the Low Countries assaulted. Consider:
- 1. Whether not an urgent one, those parts.
- 2. What number and with what speed.
- 3. What money.
- 4. What means to raise that money.
1. For the first, 4 motives.
- [First,] the greatness of the danger intimated by his Majesty and known to us. We understand how many armies are ready.
- Second motive, their nearness to us:
- 1. In situation.
- 2. In ancient and long continued confederacy, alleged in the preamble of many subsidies granted in Queen Elizabeth's time.
- 3. In religion, vinculum inter deum et homines. I fear [blank] in the day of judgement.
- Third motive, the abode of that princely daughter of our King's, her etc., her children's safety.
- 4. Tum tua res agitur, paries cum proximus ardet, if, etc., in the same case as an house.
[f. 73v] SECRETARY CONWAY. Those things of the Low Countries and the rest depend on the King's declaration. The agents for the Low Countries offer assistance. If we delay resolution, we lose the Low Countries; if we go not on with the treaty, a war; come to the war if [blank] we must assist him. Who, how and with what is yet untimely.
SIR EDWARD CECIL. We are in great businesses, to consider of the greatest difficulties. 10,000 men will run through Spain.
MR. [EDWARD] ALFORD. This is a matter of great consequence; fit to take time, not ready yet to go to the Lords, nor to make a committee. Much has been said of the Low Countries. More might have been said. Divide the question:
The one concerns our religion, our estates. In the 2nd place, it will be fit to consider of his Majesty's supply. First, go with a general, that we will supply, etc.; when that, [f. 74] then how and in what manner.
SIR EDWIN SANDYS. No greater enemy to consultation than precipitation, no greater enemy to proceeding than lento pede. Fit this day to proceed but one step. The King has asked our advice, we have given it him. His Majesty replies upon us, you know the consequence, how far forth will you assist me. I do not see it to be a necessary consequence. Question, what is the cause of the war?
So, as unless the King of Spain refuse, to return. Sir, if it please you to follow our advice, we will not fail your Majesty, but will assist you in, etc. When hereupon the King has declared himself, then will it be fit to debate. Though this advice be likely to be embraced, yet when it will appear in what state the country is, we must consider it is a most necessary thing now by taking away grievances to enable and encourage the people.
[f. 74v] A message was sent to the Lords to acquaint them that we have considered of [blank] and that we desire a conference. The adverse part has cast out that within a few days, a bone shall be cast in to sever both Houses.
MR. [CHRISTOPHER] BROOKE. I conceive that what was informed touching the King's estate was rather to show us he must wholly depend on our assistance. Not fit to delay long, nor yet to go presently to the Lords. We will aid him, and we doubt not but to find means. The greatest danger of present invasion in Ireland. That would first be. Then fit to consider of assisting the Low Countries. Many other ways to supply besides subsidies.
SIR HENRY ANDERSON. Only resolve now to make good our advice.
SIR EDWARD COKE resolved to deal with our Sovereign with all alacrity and bountifulness. England never prospered so well as when war with Spain. When I was a commissioner for the Treasury, divers good citizens of London called before us were of opinion that there was no such way to enrich the kingdom as to have war with Spain. [f. 75] This war just when it is to recover that which is unjustly detained. Question, but whether have they denied to restore the Palatinate? The King has demanded it and withal said, if it were not done within such a time, it should be taken for a denial. Besides, the general cause of religion. Not ready yet to go to the Lords, but after a consultation among ourselves then go to confer with them about the war; but for the supply that is our own work. Delay never more dangerous. Our greatest desire is that the King would declare himself. The King has proposed difficulties. Tomorrow morning, the King's propositions to be read and then we to/
SIR ROBERT MANSELL. Not desire a war, yet etc.
SIR ROBERT HARLEY. The thing first to be debated, the making a manifestation that if his Majesty shall be pleased to declare himself, we will support him with all.
MR. [JOHN] GLANVILLE. The King will first satisfy himself in his conscience. The King himself in the last Parliament said he would spend his life, his blood [f. 75v] and his son's blood, but he will have the Palatinate.
MR. SOLICITOR. That point of satisfying the King's conscience belongs not to us, etc. But the question whether we will declare we will assist him. I do not think the King doubts. But hereupon depends the reputation of this kingdom abroad. We can here better give counsel than keep it. First, we should in the general declare ourselves.
SIR ROBERT PHELIPS. The King's speech was when we had done what was [blank] he would consider us. Not fit now to discourse of the war. Whether a war or no, we know not. It is fit for us to justify our advice and to declare.
SIR NATHANIEL RICH. The difficulties, Ireland, the Treasury, etc. If they be weak now, they will be weaker. No question, but an acclamation.
MR. RECORDER. The King refers not to us the consideration of the war so much as of the means of war.
Resolved, by the question, and no negative, that in pursuit of our advice we will be ready, upon his Majesty's declaration of his [f. 76] dissolving both the treaties, to assist him.
SIR ROBERT PHELIPS. A dangerous course. Some in this House, in a secondary manner, within an hour or two convey what here is done unto the Spanish Ambassador.
A message from the Lords: according to his Majesty's commandment, relation being made by the Lord Treasurer to the Lords of his Majesty's estate and conceiving the like to have been in your House, some doubts may arise, the Lords desire a meeting to clear them where the Prince himself will be present, too.
Answer returned: the House will meet, etc., at such time and place as they shall appoint.
Another message to appoint time and place. The meeting in the Painted Chamber, presently.
[Conference with the Lords]
The committees of both Houses meeting in the Painted Chamber, the Prince only spoke.
The Prince's speech.
XIII. JOURNAL OF SIR SIMONDS D'EWES, BL, HARL. MS 159
[11 March 1624]
The Prince's Highness the 15th [sic] of March, being Monday [sic], 1623, yet further to satisfy and reconsolate the two Houses of Parliament, somewhat discomforted with His Majesty's speech the day foregoing, spoke to the committees of both Houses who had forborne yet to make relation of his Majesty's speech to the House, as follows.
[f. 29v] A particular of the King's principal debts and of his greatest disbursements delivered to the Upper House of Parliament by Lionel, Earl of Middlesex, Lord High Treasurer of England, and to the Lower House by Sir Richard Weston, Chancellor of the Exchequer, both of them being on Thursday, the 11th of March 1623, which were given in by his Majesty's direction shortly after his speech at Theobalds, March 6 [sic] 1623.
Disbursed since Michaelmas 1619:
Debts owing besides these moneys thus issued:
Whereof there has been received in:
And there remains:
Whereof he owes:
|To Sir Baptist Hicks, citizen, Sir William Cockayne, alderman of London, and Sir Peter Vanlore, a Dutchman||£30,000|
|To [Philip] Burlamachi||£117,500 [sic]|
|And there is anticipated of his Majesty's revenue||£32,000|
March 110, Thursday
[George] Morgan brought in a bill against [Richard] Bowdler, seeing his petition had been rejected as a personal business.
An account of the King's personal estate, what he dispended in these long and deceivable treaties of Spain, what came in, and what he was in debt, made by SIR RICHARD WESTON. In extraordinary embassies £145,763; in entertaining of ambassadors £6,736; the Prince's voyage into Spain £64,587 [sic]; about the Palatinate £172,888. His Majesty's tonnage of shipping is now 19,299.
SIR BENJAMIN RUDYARD spoke first to the main business of the King's answer. We have presented [f. 75v] our honourable advice and we have had his Majesty's gracious answer. As in his first speech, he was pleased to call himself a husband, so now he woos us afresh and says he hopes he shall grow in love with Parliaments, and he takes notice of our loves to him again and he gives us thanks for it. I presume his thanks shall not be lost on our parts, but that we will cherish his Majesty's good opinion of Parliaments, for they be the causes of all our good or ill; and now if things succeed not well, we are not to blame the King for it but ourselves. We may love our liberties but we must not so embrace them as we kill them. We blow up this House without powder, done with our own breaths. Let us consider, therefore, the cause of our coming here and the happy turn the Prince has given both to the affairs at home and of all Christendom; and if we fail of our desires in this, I fear this will be the last Parliament we shall see. And I beseech you, lay it to your hearts the King has not pressed us to anything but argued that which must necessarily follow upon our advice to him. And let us not fright ourselves with the greatness of our adversary nor the vast charge we shall be at to oppose him. Consider rather our own security and our own defence. Spain fears no nation more than us, ergo, doubtless will attempt something to disorder us if we timely and speedily prevent not him. I therefore move to join with the Lords for a Council of War to consider how we may secure Ireland, the ports of the kingdom, man out our fleet and assist the Low Countries; and this is all we are like to do this summer, and so to make the King some proportionable present to help his wants, and all this quickly lest it come too late.
[f. 76] Others, with what joy did the people hear of the calling of this Parliament and of the King's speech at the beginning of it to give us leave to advise him in these treaties. Ergo, speed the business all we may. If our great commanders should be worn away at home and our allies devoured and disbanded abroad, we ourselves were lost; ergo, consider but the estate both of King and kingdom and the means to support both.
We are now like the philosopher that carried all he had about him; our good or bad for present or future is now enclosed within these walls. Consider where we are, in what case we stand; nemo laeditur nisi a seipso, and if we hurt not ourselves we are like to be safe. Let us not doubt, ergo, to declare ourselves that his Majesty's declaration may succeed, our advice and our supply second his declaration. Consider what we would have done the last Parliament to have had these opportunities, and take the advantage of this acceptable time. Let us express at once what we all intend to do and silence forever our adversaries of the papists' faction.
Some thought fit to begin with the assistance of the Low Countries, what number of men were fit to be sent there and with what speed, in regard:
- 1. Of their present danger surrounded by the enemy.
- 2. Their nearness to us in situation, in religion, alliance.
- 3. Of the King's daughter and her children, being embarked with them in their hazards.
- 4. Our ruin threatened if they should miscarry.
Ergo, quench the fire whilst there is one house between us and it. [MR. THOMAS] WENTWORTH.
Others, if the treaties go on, the Low Countries will be lost; if they break off, then we must enter into a war; and if that, then must we [f. 76v] assist his Majesty.
Motion, to give some satisfaction to the King that we will do it indeed. The King has spent more in treaties than he is like to do in wars.
MR. [EDWARD] ALFORD would not be too hasty but speak to one point first, and that was to offer his Majesty a supply in general, and then spoke of the quomodo in his time and place.
SIR EDWIN SANDYS. There is no greater enemy to consultation than precipitation, as to action than delay. Go this day but one step. War is not a necessary immediate consequence of what we have done already; let that be just, prima res repetitis, for that makes a just war. Demand restitution of the Palatinate from the King of Spain; and for the King, we will assist if he will declare, else go no further at this time.
MR. [FRANCIS] BRAKIN [sic] observed the Parliament not only to be a court of justice but a council of state, and called it the Prince's Parliament, and thought fit first to begin with the securing of Ireland, not the States.
SIR EDWARD CECIL [sic]. This day is the equinoctial and I hope the happy beginning of the safety of our kingdom. And spoke only to the point of war. Be not afraid of wars with Spain. We never thrived better than when we had them. The committee which had been formerly appointed for the Treasury thought it a necessary means to enrich this kingdom to have wars with Spain and the want of them to be the decay of trade in England. The justice of a war is propter res repetendas vegetius, and the King has demanded the Palatinate and used all fair means for it. Motion, to consult the Lords upon the point of war, not of supply, [f. 77] for that must move from here, and do it speedily. Delay is destruction, and now is the time that kings go out to war; and give the King such satisfaction as he may declare himself, and we will assist cheerfully and bountifully.
SIR ROBERT MANSELL would not fight but prepare.
MASTER [JOHN] GLANVILLE had the King's answer in his hand and spoke to these words in it: how this war stood with his conscience and honour, 2 brave heads for a speech, to that of showing the teeth and no more. And the King has engaged himself to us, ergo, let us manifest ourselves to him.
To assist is requisite, but if it come off slowly, our enemies will rejoice and our friends be disheartened. This is a place fit to give counsel, but not to keep it. Ergo, motion for secrecy.
Other[s] opposed that because our friends had already been discouraged. Declare this, yea, even to the Spanish ambassador, that he and all the world may see that we will stand to it.
SIR ROBERT PHELIPS would not debate of war but only have us justify our advice by promise of assistance.
SIR N[blank] R[blank] said the King's doubts which he makes were argued to set him forward in his resolution, for if he be weak now, he will be weaker hereafter. Would have us declare our affection in this cause by acclamation rather than question.
The RECORDER FINCH framed the question: without all jealousy on the King's part, to prosecute our advice.
SIR THOMAS JERMYN. The question being long in framing, said it was like the philosophers' stone and we like alchemists within an inch of it and still missed it. Ergo, framed it again.
And then it was ordered, by question, to [f. 77v] let his Majesty know that in prosecution of this advice, we would assist his Majesty with our persons and abilities in a parliamentary course.
A committee was appointed to frame the words how we would have it presented.
A message from the Lords: that the King's estate having been made known unto them, some doubts arose among them and fearing lest the like might have done among us, viz. why his personal estate should be revealed so at this time, which yet he did not to have a relief presently. At which the Prince, his Highness, only spoke, which was the next day to be reported in the House.