House of Commons Journal Volume 1: 02 May 1621

Mercurii, 2 Maii

Alien Merchants.

THE Petition of the Merchants, being born in England of alien Parents, to be handled, first Business before the Committee for Grievances, on Monday next; and the Customers then to attend.

Compton's Patents.

The Patents of Sir Tho. Compton, prohibiting Importation of Logwood, and dispensing with Importation thereof, to be brought in to the Committee for Grievances, upon Friday next, by... Jarvys, of the Custom-house, who executeth the same.

Farwell's Decree.

L. 1a. An Act to reverse a Decree made in Chancery, Ter. Mich. 15o Jac. in a Cause, wherein Sir Jo. Farwell was Plaintiff, against Alexander Baker Defendant.

Apprentices.

L. 1a. An Act touching the Taking Apprentices, and Money with them.

Highways.

L. 1a. An Act against the Misemployment of Lands, Tenements, and Hereditaments, given for the Maintenance or Repair of Causeys and Highways.

Fishermen.

L. 1a. An Act for the Freeing of Fishermen from Payment of Custom, &c. for Fish taken upon the Coasts of Ireland; and for the Packing, &c. and Importing thereof.

Poor.

L. 2a. An Act for the better Relief of the Poor within London, and Three Miles thereof. -

Mr. Rolfe: - To have this Bill made general.

Sir Wm. Strowde: - This a dangerous Bill: For will exclude the poor People from Dwellings.

Sir Geor. Moore: - That this Bill agreeth with Equity of former. Acts of Parliament. - To commit it.

Sir Francis Darcy: - To have this Bill general for Middlesex, at least.

Sir Edw. Gyles, accordant: - To commit it.

Sir Edw. Mountagew accordant. - The best Course, to settle the Poor, that may be - To make it general.

Mr. Alford: - To have Consideration of racked Rents, and old Rents. -

Committed to Sir Geor. Moore, Sir Ed. Mountague, Burgesses of London, Sir J. Horsey, Mr. Barlett, Sir Edw. Francis, Sir Edw. Peyton, Sir H. Poole, Sir Tho. Hinton, Sir G. Gerrard: All, that will come, to have Voice : - Monday next, Exchequer Court.

Grievances.

Sir H. Poole reporteth from the Committee for Survey of Grievances, that the Sub-committee, appointed in the Vacation-time, desire a new Day, and an Addition. -

Sir H. Poole, Sir M. Sands, Sir J. Horsey, Sir P. Fretchwell, Mr. Conyers, Sir Nath. Rich, Mr. Drake, Mr. Noye, Mr. Fetherston, Sir Geor. Chaworth, Sir Wm. Strowde, Sir Wm. Ermyn, Mr. Whitmore, Mr. Arondell, Sir Tho. Low, Mr. Carvyll, Mr. Strowde, Mr. Wentworth, Mr. Tho. Trevor, Mr. Hackwyll, Mr. Mallett, Sir Jo. Trevor junior, Sir Edw. Sands, Sir Sam. Sands, Mr. Nevell: - Saturday, Star-chamber. - And the Committees, for, this, specially required to attend.

Sheriffs of London.

Sir A. Ingram moveth, the Sheriffs of London, being present, may be discharged, or else know the Pleasure of the House.

Mr. Alford moveth, to stay, in respect of the great Consequence, till the House fuller; and then may debate it fully.

The Serjeant sent for all the Lawyers, to come away presently.

Jeofayles.

L. 2a. An Act for the further Reformation of Jeofayles: - Committed to Mr. Servant Towse, all the Lawyers of the House, Sir Tho. Wentworth, Mr. Fanshaw, Mr. Finch, Sir Edw. Coke, Mr. Clarke, Mr. Hopton, Mr. Mallett, Mr. Denny, Serjeant Davys, Mr. Strowde, Mr. Taylor, Mr. Irby, Mr. Sotwell: - Monday next, in the Middle Temple Hall.

Lepton's Patent.

Sir Tho. Wentworth moveth, concerning Mr. Lepton's Patent : Presenteth a Certificate from the County of Yorke: - And other several Petitions delivered in.

Mr. Lepton to be here upon Friday next, before the Committee for G rievances, the second Cause. His Patent to be then brought in; and Counsel on both Parts, if they will.

Eglesham's Patent.

Sir Edw. Coke reporteth, from the Committee for Grievances, Dr. Eglesham's Patent for gold Foliate. -

1. The Patent holden by the Committee void, in Law, and by Consequent. Void in Law : For not within the Statute 5o Eliz. so as any one may lawfully execute it; and against the Liberty of the Subject, to be restrained without Act of Parliament. 2ly. Because under the Government of the Goldsmiths. - That they covenanted with the King, to bring in as much as they were to spend; but brought in none. That the King told Sir H. Y. he doubted, this would consume the Gold of this Kingdom; and Sir H. Y. promised to provide

for that. - The End of all Monopolies private Gain, though the publick pretended. The Cutler before bought for 20s. Gold, now payeth 30s. - The Dr. 2001. per Annum: Sir H. Britayne 50 l. - The Painter and Bookbinder enhansed also. - Importation of any prohibited. - Made worse, thinner, and of less Size. - That, by Force of this, they arrested Men. - Spencer drawn by Warrant into London, and there arrested upon feigned Actions.

Upon Question, this Patent a Grievance, both in the Creation, and Execution.

Members concerned in Patents.

Mr. Mallory: - If any Member of this House a Projector, or Protector of any Patent condemned here, he should not continue any longer a Member of this House.

Mr. Solicitor, against any such general Order; but, if the particular be made appear, let them answer, and the particular Case be judged.

Mr. Spencer: - To examine this particular, and not meddle with the general.

Chancellor of the Duchy: - That a Man may be heard to explain himself, where any Offence; not where a Man hath omitted something in his Speech ; for then may speak infinitely.

Sir D. Digges: - That he may speak to the Question.

Sir Nath. Rich: - May explain himself.

Sir Edw. Coke: - Not to make general Orders,

Sir Wm. Spencer: - That if any sit in this House, who is a Sharer in the Gold Thread Patent, he may not remain a Member hereof.

Sir Edw. Villyers excuseth himself: For nothing proved against him among the Lords, though the Attorney, Sir H. Y, have said what he could against him.

The House generally presseth to have him withdrawn during the Debate.

Sir Edw. Sackvyle: - Great Difference between a Projector, and a Sharer. Many shared in those Patents, not then knowing them unlawful.

Mr. Beecher; - No Cause appeareth here, to put him out.

Mr. Alford: - Not to question him, except there appear just Cause by any Proceedings above with the Lords.

Sir Francis Seymor: - Not to sequester him, but to leave it to his own Judgment. - Thinketh, he of himself will forbear, till this Matter be cleared.

Sir Edw. Sackvyle: - If Cause, to hear him, and judge him here.

Sir H. Poole, accordant: - And not to sequester him.

Sir Geor. Manners: - To let him sit here, till Cause appear to the contrary. - So Sir D. Digges.

Master of the Wards: - Every Day new Fires kindled, which we much ado to quench. - That he only a Sharer and Adventurer.

Sir Sam. Sands: - That many fatal Diversions every Day. - To view the Journal, and Patent, to see, whether any Ground to charge him.

Sir Edw. Gyles, accordant: - Feareth Bones cast.

Sir Na. Rich: - To have a Committee, to examine, how the State of the Objections against him. - Not to receive him in thither, till then.

Sir Wm. Strowde: - Not against the Examination of this Business; - but to sit here, till he be convicted: For Sir Ro. Floyde, who a known Projector, sat here till his Judgment.

Sir Ro. Phillippes professeth great Respects to Sir Edw. Villyers, and his Friends. - That said by Sir H. Y. said, Sir Edw. Villyers had enforced him to commit some. - That Sir Edw. had threatened some with perpetual Imprisonment. - Wisheth his Stay out of the House (as voluntary of himself) for a Day or Two, till we understand from the Lords, what they find against him.

Sir Tho. Wentworth: - To have a Committee, ut supra; and yet to let him remain here, till convinced of some Crime, worthy to put him out.

Sir Francis Darcy: accordant.

Mr. Denney, accordant.

Sir Tho. Jermyn: - Not convinced of any thing: Accused by Sir H. Y. who hath not cleared himself.

Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer: - That no Man yet put out, without Judgment.

Mr. Crew: - Two Points in Question: Whether a present Return into the House: 2ly, How this Committee may proceed. - All related already to the Lords.

The further Debate of this Business left; and left to his Discretion, to come in, if he will.

Jurisdiction of Parliament - Punishing Floyde.

Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer: - That his Majesty, out of his Care of the Proceedings of this House, took Notice of our Proceedings Yesterday. - By him Thanks for their great Zeal to him, and his: - And that he, as a King, hath taken upon him to stay our Proceedings Yesterday; and, as a Father, to take Care of our Proceedings : And, by way. -

1. Quaere, Whether the Extent and Power of this House to examine and punish Offences, not of Members of the House, or general Grievances.

2ly, To censure a denying Party, without Accusation upon Oath. - Desireth but to keep us from Errors. - If, by Precedents, we may. -

That the King expecteth the like Course here, from this House, as from the Lords, in Sir H. Y. Case; who would not proceed with him, till knew his Pleasure. - Floyde, labouring to supplant Sir Francis Evers, depraved him, not with Corruption, but with indefinite Stains of Dulness, Ignorance, &c. That, upon this, Floyde committed. Upon Sir Francis Evers' Death, Floyde appealed to the King; who, notwithstanding, was restrained by -

That, if this Fault (examined by Oath) prove true, will confirm our Sentence, and rather exceed it.

Master of the Wards: - Brought Yesterday from the King Assurance of our Privileges: Commanded now again to use the same Words. - Question, whether this House hath Power to give Judgment Yesterday or not. - He Yesterday desired a View of Precedents, to walk safely : Received this Morning, a Record from the King's Hands; which if true, we all much mistaken. - That told sithence the Parliament, we a Court of Record ; and had Power to judge of ourselves, in some Cases; and, in other Cases, jointly with the Lords. - The King desireth us to look, what Precedents to warrant this; and that this Paper may be read, containing a Record l H. IV.

Which was read; first, in French, by the Clerk; after, in English, by the Speaker.

Mr. Alford: - That this, and divers other Precedents, found by them. - Moveth, first to consider, how our Reputation may be saved for the present, in respect of the Expectation of the Execution thereof. - That the King may pardon this, if he please.

Mr. Noye: - Knoweth not what Resolution Yesterday, - That, without Doubt, wheresoever any Judgment given, the King may remit it - In Lord Latimer's Case so done, The King may take away, not reatum, but culpam, and paenam. - That the King -

No doubt, but, in some Cases, this House may give Judgment: - In Matters of Returns, and concerning Members of our House, or falling out in our View, in Parliament-time; but, for foreign Business, knoweth not how we can judge it. Knoweth not, but the Matter of Judicature remaineth above with the Lords. - We excusable, if zealous in this so exorbitant an Offence. - Knoweth not, that we have used to give Judgment in any Case, but those before-mentioned. - That, for this Record, no doubt, but we may, of Things concerning our own Members. - That the Judgment remaineth in our own Breast, till the Record made up; which not yet done : And we may well deliver this as our Opinion, though not as a Judgment. - No Committee, to examine this Business; because judged: For then a few shall judge all.

Sir H. Poole: - Glad, it could be made good, which hath been delivered here, that the Commons may judge of themselves. If we once all one with the Lords, being now parted, our Power of Judicature remaineth. - A Committee, to consider of Precedents; that we may know our Power therein.

Sir Christofer Hildyard, accordant.

Sir J. Perrott, - for this Committee.

Mr. Hackwyll : - Against a Committee, - For that to Parliament - controul our own Judgment. - Doubteth, no Precedent will be found ; and then worse. - to have an Order conceived, that we intend not (for some special Reasons) to proceed further in the Execution of our Judgment.

Sir Edw. Sands: - That we, Yesterday, carried on with a great deal of Zeal to the King, and his Children. If this an Error, error amoris.- - A Committee appointed to draw up all things, tending to this Judgment, and to survey his Writings. - To send a Supersedeas, and go to the Lords.

Sir Edw . Coke: - Was not here Yesterday. - The King sendeth us Quaere's; and a Record, wherewith well acquainted. - Hath been misliked, out of the House, for curbing the Jurisdiction of this House, in going to the Lords, where we might have judged it here. Happy, that thought ill of by them, that understand not. - No Question, but this a House of Record; and that it hath Power of Judicature, in some Cases. - Have Power to judge of Returns, and Members of our House, We make a Warrant to the Great Seal: Therefore a Power of Record : - May put out a Member of this House, upon Record. One, no Member, offending out of the Parliament, when he came hither, and justified it, was censured for it. King's Bench, nor any other Court, can judge in all Cases. -

This Record of 1 H. IV. but an Ordinance, no Statute. The Power, we had before, remaineth still, being not taken away by Act of Parliament. An Ordinance, in this Case, bindeth us not. -

Coram Magnatibus et Communitate. - When the Lords will have our Advice, then may join with them; as appeareth by this Record. The Lords may judge alone, without the King; and standeth with this Record : For it is, as hath been used, by the very Words. When the King there, then they join, when he there; else alone. -

Not to write to the Sheriffs a Supersedeas: For no Warrant gone to them. - To let them know, by the Serjeant, they shall not need to attend till further Warning. - That this, as a Declaration of our Opinion, may go up to the Lords and acquaint them with it.

Sir Ro. Phillippes: - The Consequence of this Business great, agreeth with Sir Edw. Coke, about not writing to the Sheriff.

The Serjeant sent with his Mace to the Sheriffs of London and Middlesex, to let them know, they need not now longer attend; but may go away, till they have further Direction.

Sir Ro. Phillippes: - That the King hath sent us Quaere's. - For Precedent, though we have not (which knoweth not) yet every Precedent had a Beginning. - If nothing be done in Execution of this Judgment, will be a wonderful Touch to the Honour and Judgment of this House. - Not to go to the Lords. - Moveth a Message to the King, to petition him, that, by his Power, this Judgment may be confirmed, and executed ; and yet a Course to be taken, that this Precedent (if it fall not out warranted by Precedents) may not prejudice the Privileges of the Lords hereafter.

Sir Edw. Mountagew: - All now bound by our Judgment, as well those, which then absent as present. - To proceed by Bill, for Execution of our Judgment.

Mr. Crew: - Not to go now to the Lords, though before best. Not to proceed by Bill: For that weakeneth also,our Power. - Particular Acts of Parliament not to be taken Notice of; yet otherwise, where a Law for the King, Queen, or Prince. -

No Question, but a Court of Record, and Power to give [an Oath ;] though forbear, in Respect of Want of Use. No [Question,] but we punish; and may, where this House wronged. [Sithence] therefore the whole Body of the House touched, in the [Wrong done] this Lady, the King's Daughter. -

Moveth therefore, to petition the King for the Execution [of our Judgment:] 1. With Thanks to the King, for his gracious Message: [2ly,] Excuse of our sudden Proceedings, without acquainting [him,] by reason of our Zeal: 3ly, to petition his [Majesty for] Execution of our Judgment.

Mr. Solicitor - We all agree in his Punishment, * * * already made him close Prisoner. - To inform the King of our Proceedings and Reasons; [and that] he will examine himself; which he may do upon * * finding our Judgment warranted by Truth, to [confirm it.]

Mr. Glanvyle: - All Precedents grounded upon Reason.

* * Words a common Grievance, in respect of the King's [Children,] in whom all have Interest. - That we [judge]

* Returns, and Misdemeanors, &c. fine, imprison, &c.

* * * why then not so? - Peers tried upon Honour *** Where the Commons House satisfied, though without [Oath;] * * and as good, as in another Court without Oath - [That] in this Precedent observable, that then the Commons pr* * * join; and they intreated to be spared. Their own [Judgment] is not to prejudge them of their former Liberty. -

Thanks. - A Committee to consider of what Course fittest,

Mr. Finch: - That our Judgment in Part executed. - Bolton's Ward * * Lodging this last Night. - To petition the King to [confirm] our Judgment, by the Execution, of his Grace. - To have * * Memorandum entered, that we have no Meaning, by [this] Precedent, to gain any Power to us of what we had no Power before.

Sir D. Digges: - Not to go now to the Lords, nor by Bill; but, as the King hath dealt as a King, and we as dutiful Subjects, to let him know, he cannot -

That this Execution in Part done. - To petition the King for the further Execution of it, and to add to it further, if he shall please.

Mr. Brooke: - To petition the King for the Execution.

- This a publick Grievance : And will else encourage all popishly-affected Subjects.

Sir Geor. Moore: - 23o Eliz. a Law made for depraving the Queen.

Mr. Mallory -

A Committee: Sir Ro. Phillippes, Mr. Alford, Sir Edw. Sands, Mr. Mallory, Mr. Crew, Sir Edw. Mountague, Sir Geor. Moore, Sir Nath. Rich, Mr. Hackwill, Sir D. Digges, Sir Edw. Gyles, Sir H. Poole, Sir Ro. Bevyll, Mr. Secretary, Master of the Wards, Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer.

Mr. Speaker to be here in the Afternoon.

The Trunk to be sealed up, till further Direction.

Mercurii, 2o Maii. Post meridiem.

Masters of Chancery.

[THE] Masters of the Chancery, - Two Clock, Tomorrow in the Afternoon, Court of Wards.

Jurisdiction of Parliament - Punishing Floyde.

Mr. Price: - All this Day in a Labyrinth: Divers Threads [put] into our Hands to wind us out of it. No Way, [but] by the King; either by his Grace, or Power.

[Sir Tho. Wentworth :] - The King's eldest Daughter respected in some Things, [by Act] of Parliament, more than any other Daughter. - Not to [go] to the Lords, nor petition the King: Not fit, if our Judgment [coram] non Judice. - To proceed by a Law. Though not [so speedy.] yet more safe and firm, especially for his Fine.

[Sir Edw. Cecill: ] - This Parliament expected to be the happiest, that ever * * may be so, if could get a Precedent. - By Mr. [Speaker,] and some select Committee, to attend him, to petition * * to be respectful of his Subjects. - Grieveth him, [that a] popish Knave should in the Face of this House, * a Cross, and think now, that this had preserved [him] from our Judgment.

[Sir Tho.] Jermyn: - Findeth no Justification, by any, of our Judgment. - [the King] sendeth us only a Quaere: Condemneth us not. - To * Mr. Speaker go to the King, to tell him, we not yet prepared [to] answer his Quaere's :

- Therefore to give us longer Time for Search of Precedents.

Serjeant Davys: - To end this Business this Day, if possible : To present it to [his] Majesty with Expedition.

- That we have Power of Judicature in this Case, if in any. - We happy, that have the noblest King born, that is in Europe: - The Queen of Bohemia therefore, his

Daughter, of the same Nobility. - This a Contempt offered to the King's Person, who our Head; and therefore we, the Body, are to be sensible, and take Notice. - To make this Lady no Gentlewoman! - Goodwife ! - The King present in Person here. - If any speak against this House abroad, we send for him -

No Question, but, upon his Confession, we might, for the Reason aforesaid, punish him ; and may do it here, without Oath, if the House satisfied viis & modis.

Sir Geor. Moore: - To acknowlege no Error in our Judgment, nor to contest with the King. - To pass a Bill.

Upon Question, to address ourselves, in this Case, to his Majesty.

Master of the Wards : - That the Speaker, with the whole House, may present our Request to his Majesty - So Mr. Wandesford.

Sir Nath. Rich: - Because nothing crosseth our Judgment, but the Precedent 1 H. IV. - which an excellent Record for us, made in that Parliament, wherein the most prodigious Fact done, that ever in Parliament; which this House then disavowed : Which made the King and Lords, in Indignation, seclude them from Judgment in those Cases. The Fact was upon King Richard the 2d.

Mr. Carvyle: - If any Foreigner offend, justly, any Member of this House, in Words, we may convent and punish him.

Sir Jo. Chamberlayne: - Feareth, this going to the King will procure a Distaste between the Lords and us.

Mr. Noye : - Well resolved to go to the King. - To give him full Satisfaction in some Things. - Have stayed any Execution of our Judgment- - For the Quaeres made; - If any Man of the House had beaten Floyde, the King would not have been offended : Much less our Judgment. - Not to contest with the King, of our Right. To set down our Reasons, moving us, in this particular Cause, to proceed as we have done : For the general; not to disclaim in our Right, but to take time to search Precedents.

Sir Francis Seymor: - To have only some 10 or 12 to attend the Speaker to the King. - No Debate with the King. - To search Precedents afterwards.

Sir Wm. Strowde: - To leave it to the King, whether the whole House, or a select Number, to attend the Speaker to the King.

Sir Francis Fane, accordant.

Sir Tho. Jermyn : - A Committee to withdraw themselves presently, to set down in Writing what shall be presented to the King by the Speaker.

Sir Edw. Montagew : - Not in our Power to appoint whether the whole House, or fewer, shall come to the King. - To leave that to him.

Mr. Secretary, Chancellor Exchequer, Master of the Wards, presently to signify to his Majesty the Desire of the House, to -

Sir Edw. Mountagew, Sir Ro. Phillippes, Sir D. Digges, Sir Edw. Cecill, Sir Nath. Rich, Mr. Alford, Sir H. Poole, Sir A. Ingram, Mr. Solicitor, Sir Geor. Moore, Sir Tho. Row, Mr. Chancellor Duchy, Sir Edw. Sands, Sir Tho. Wentworth, Mr. Noye, Mr. Hackwyll, Sir Sam. Sands -

Master of the Wards: - To take especial Care of Sir Nath. Rich Motion, to answer the Record of 1 H. IV. - Neither to accuse or excuse ourselves. To shew our Judgment to have been hastened by our Zeal. To desire the King will deal with us as a Father.

Mr. Chancellor of the Duchy and Mr. Alford: - Not to send till -

Person sent for.

James Wetherall, of Bramham, in the County of Yorke, to be sent for by a Serjeant at Arms. He was formerly sent for, and contemned the Order. - It is for Tolls.

Style's Nat.

Style. L. 3a. An Act for the Naturalizing - Upon Question, passed.

Salisbury.

L. 3a. - Salisbury. - Upon Question, passed.

Cecill's Nat.

L. 3a. - An Act for the Naturalization of Mrs. Albinia Cecill, Daughter of Sir Edw. Cecill Knight; - Upon Question, passed.

King appoints to be attended.

Mr. Secretary reporteth, that his Majesty is pleased to admit Mr. Speaker To-morrow, at Two of the Clock in the Afternoon, with the whole House, in the great Hall.

Douglasse's Nat.

L. 3a. An Act for the Naturalizing of Sir Ro. Douglasse Knight, Treasurer of his Majesty's Houshold: - Upon Question, passed.

Ayton's, &c Nat.

L. 3a. An Act for the Naturalization of Sir Ro. Ayton Knight, and James Bowy Esquire: - Upon Question, passed.