House of Commons Journal Volume 1: 16 April 1624

Veneris, 16 Aprilis, 1624

Weavers.

L. 1. AN Act for the Advancing the Trade of Dornix Weavers, and better Government of the same Trade,

Egerton.

L. 1. Edward Egerton's Bill.

Edwards' Decree.

L. 2. An Act to reverse a Decree, made in the Court of Whitehall, commonly called the Court of Requests, between Edwards the Elder, and Edwards the Younger : - Committed to Sir Clem. Throckmorton, Sir Pet. Mutton, Sir Eub. Theloall, Attorney Wards, Sir Tho. Midleton, Mr. Jo. Brake, Sir Tho. Walmesley, Sir Tho. Firefax, Knights, Burgesses Wales, Sir Pet. Hayman, all the Lawyers of the House, Sir Fra. Barrington, Sir Hen. Mildmay, Sir Gil. Jerrard, Mr. Drury, Sir Will. Fleetwood, Sir Rob. Pye, Mr. Charnocke, Mr. Bateman: - Tuesday, Court of Wards, Two Clock.

Newsam.

L. 2. Newsam's Bill: - Committed to Sir Clem. Throckmorton, Knights, Burgesses of Warwicke and Stafford, Sir Rob. Hatton, Mr. Jo. Wainsford, Attorney Wards, Sir Geo. Moore, Mr. Knightley, Sir Rob. Pye, Sir Eras. Dreyden, Sir Tho. Haslerig, Mr. Selden, Sir Alex. St. John, Sir Row. Egerton, Sir Geo. Dalston : - Saturday, Two Clock, Court of Wards. Bishop of Coventry and Lichfeild to have Notice ; and all Parties, whom it concerns.

Horses and Armour.

L. 1. An Act for the Authorizing of the Lords Lieutenants, and Deputy Lieutenants, of the several Counties of this Realm, to appoint, what Persons shall provide and find Horses and Armour, for the necessary Defence of this Realm. - Upon Questipn, rejected.

Ditto.

Mr. Secretary, Mr. Comptroller, Sir Edw. Cooke, Mr. Noy, Sir Fra. Fane, Sir H. Poole, Lord Percy, Sir Tho. Denton, Sir Guy Palmes, Sir Jo. Stradling, Sir Will. Fleetwood, Sir Fra. Seymour, Mr. Mallory, Sir Jo. Savyle, Sir Tho. Hoby, Sir Geo. Moore, Mr. Glanvill, Mr. Drake, Sir Oliv. Cromwell, Sir Alex. St. John, Sir Gil. Jerrard, Sir Natha. Rich, Sir Tho. Wentworth, Sir Fran. Barnam, Mr. Selden, Mr. Bond, Sir Peter Hayman, Mr. Alford, Mr. Clarke, Sir Ed. Gyles: These are appointed to meet, and agree of the Heads of a Bill about finding of Horse and Armour: And that they may appoint a Sub-committee, to agree of a Form, to draw a Bill to this Purpose, or otherwise : And to consider, whether the Muster-masters be needful, or no ; and of the Abuses of their Fees; and also, Powder, and Shot, and all other Abuses: - Saturday, Star-chamber, Two Clock.

Privilege - Sir T. Jerrard.

Sir Eub. Theloall. - To have some sent for from Leverpoole, that returned Sir Tho. Jerrard. - Ordered, They shall.

Recusants.

Sir Tho. Hoby : - To have the Order enlarged about Recusants. To have such in, as are declared so by Act of Council., or State; and, when this done, to have it presented up to the Lords.

Wednesday next, peremptory, to report to the House; and the other Clause added ; and that, when this Report made, to go up to the Lords.

The Copy of the Letter of the Lords of the Council read. -

Both such, as are Recusants, by common Fame and Report, and such, as are so of their own Knowlege.

Customers Fees.

Customers Fees : - None to be of the Committee, to have Voice, that have Interest in it. The Lawyers required to attend it.

Sir H. Anderson.

Sir Hen. Anderson to assist those for .....

Ld. Treasurer. [E. of Middlesex.]

Speaker: - A Letter from the King * to him.

The Letter read : The Effect whereof was; that the Lord Treasurer hath been so far from being any Means of the last Dissolution of Parliament, that, on his Knees, he was a Suitor for Continuance of it; and, that he the worst of Traitors, that should labour to keep the King and People at Distance.

Pretermitted Customs.

Nicholson called in. Desires not to defend the pretermitted Customs by his own Counsel. - Fittest for the King's Counsel to do it. - His Patent at the Great Seal: Can have it within Four or Five Days. He propounded to Prince Henry, 1612, this Custom : 2ly, To the Earl of Somerset: - Then the Business heard at the Council Board: - After to the Queen Anne. She referred it. They certified it to be legal. This Lord Treasurer took it from them, 1619, The Referees in this Business, Attorney, Solicitor, Sir Hen. Yelverton, and Sir Tho. Coventry. Set on foot in Queen Eliz. Time. - Knows no Particulars of it: He followed it not then : Never spoke with the Lord of Suffolke about this, but offered it to the Lady Frances, before she was the Earl of Somerset's Wife.

Withdrawn.

Mr. Solicitor, to the Business of the pretermitted Customs. - To the Legality of it. - Three : 1. To maintain it as legal: 2. Whether the Calculation truly made: 3. Point of Convenience. - Will mainly apply himself to the first. If he do err, he shall errare cum patribus; all the Judges. - 1. The Nature of this Duty: 2ly, The Ground of it. - The Duty demanded. - If not a Duty proper for the King to ask, not to be maintained upon the Statute of Tonage and Poundage, will disclaim to speak in it. - Edw. III. a Noble was given on a Sack of Wool by Parliament. Then Clothing began in England. Then thought fit to give the King an equal Profit. 21 Edw. IV. a Noble upon Six Cloths given : - VI. - 14d. Then the Statute of Tonage gives Five Nobles. -

1. This 40 s. belongs to the King, out of Wool. Queen Mary's Time, and before, less than 40s. taken, and yet more than a Noble.

- Unjust, to take more than a Noble, as well as 40 s. Not scrued up to the Height, but a part pretermitted ; hence the Denomination. For the Ground of it, must resort to the Statute. A Clause in the Statute gives it: - " One other Subsidy, for every Sack of Wool, Five Nobles."

- If these Words cannot reach to Cloth, then the King no Right to this Custom. Well objected, that these Words have an Exception from the Words of the Act: No Mention of Purpose for Cloth. - Not literally to adhere to Statutes, in the Exposition of them. This made in Queen Eliz. Time, when there was no Exportation of Wool. This could not but be known to the Parliament, that made the Law. The Rule to know the Meaning of a Statute, is to know the true Use of it. A constant Rule hath gone of this Interpretation, above 60 Years: - Let the King have that Measure of Justice from us, that we desire from him : - And inclusively of this very pretermitted Duty. All know, that, in Expositions of Statutes, observe the constant Interpretations of them : Hold it sacred, to observe the ancient Constructions. In Queen Eliz. Time the Judges gave their Opinions in the Exchequer, the proper Court for the King's Revenues, 1 Edw. VI. the King hath Power of Forfeiture of the Merchandize, that is not paid for Records in the Exchequer, very many, of Seizures of Cloths, for Non-payment of Subsidy: So that no Imposition. The Resolution of Parliament, by Laws since made. 14 Eliz. 10 Chap. An Act to reform the excessive Length of Kerseys: - Thus : "The Queen's Majesty hath been, is, and ought to be, answered of her Subsidies and Customs of them :"

- That, by the Judgment of this House, agreed on. Then clearly upon all Manner of Cloths : And, because the Queen should not be deceived, they were directed to be made of such a Length. Another Act, 27 Eliz. concerning making of white Straits in Devon and Cornewall: - " In defrauding her Majesty's Customs, no such shall be made above such a Weight and Length." Whether this rightly calculated, will not determine. - To the Point of Conveniency: - Admit, this Duty be heavy, yet, if just, not to be condemned. - We serve a good and gracious Master.

Mr. Banks: - Not to wade into former Times. The Statute of Queen Mary but temporary : Died with her. - Will answer the Objections: The equitable Exposition of the Statute of Tonage. - 1 Jacobi, a full and free Liberty of Exportation of Wool; which in force till 12o. For the second, the Possession of 60 Years; not now in Question

of the old Custom, but of the last pretermitted, never demanded, till these Four or Five Years. For the Acts of Parliament vouched; these Statutes no Words of Subsidy, but a Provision: No Word limited, what Subsidy should be paid. Then, to legal Judgments in the Exchequer, for Seizures; no Seizures ever of any for pretermitted Customs. -

The Duty built on Two Foundations : 1. The native Foundation: 2. Statutes. -

1. Queen Mary, 1. Queen Eliz. 1. Jac. For the second; 1. Statutes : They are remembered, as Precedents to induce this Custom. For the Legality; 1. No Duty. - Cloth directly excepted, out of the first Branch, 1. Expositions in Parliament, 14 Edw. III.

31 Hen. VIII. The Opinion of the Judges, that no Custom due on Cloth, by any Law. -

1 Mariae. Dyer. There also the Judges could find no Law for it. - For Matter of Equity; the Law a penal Law, and therefore not to be extended upon Particulars, not enumerated: And besides, this high Subsidy set upon Wool, to keep it within the Kingdom; and not to be set upon the Cloth. Besides, not pretermitted, admitted all the rest. The Duty before demanded, and paid, at the highest. The primitive Calculation fails. In Edw. III. Time, the Subsidy then, on Wool, 6s. 8d.; on a Cloth, but 4s. 6d. Now demanded as much on Four Cloths, as on a Sack of Wool. A Sack of Wool will make Six sorting Cloths : Now laid on Four sorting Cloths: And therefore should be but a Noble. - May be objected, that there must be an Allowance of Tare. - No Law for that. That not above 84 Pound upon a Sack of Wool: So then the Pretermission but a Matter 14d. No Reason that so much should be expected of Cloth, as on the Wool. The King hath many Commodities and Recompence that way. Another Reason, the late Manufactures of new Draperies. There not contented with this on Cloth: Take after 3 l. a Sack of Wool upon them. Another Reason; this Duty upon all Sorts of Cloths, coarse and fine, contrary to Two Acts of Parliament.

This Debate adjourned till To-morrow Morning, Nine Clock.