House of Lords Journal Volume 12
17 April 1671

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1767-1830

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'House of Lords Journal Volume 12: 17 April 1671', Journal of the House of Lords: volume 12: 1666-1675 (1767-1830), pp. 493-499. URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=12798 Date accessed: 23 April 2014. Add to my bookshelf


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DIE Lunæ, 17 die Aprilis.

REX.

Domini tam Spirituales quam Temporales præsentes fuerunt:

His Royal Highness the Duke of Yorke.
Arch. Cant.
Arch. Eborac.
Epus. London.
Epus.Durham.
Epus.Winton.
Epus. Ely.
Epus. Sarum.
Epus.Petriburgh.
Epus. Carlile.
Epus. Oxon.
Epus. Rochester.
Epus. Lyncolne.
Epus. Chester.
Dux Cumberland.
Sir Orlando Bridgman, Mil. et Bar. Ds. Custos Magni Sigilli.
Dux Bucks.
Dux Monmouth.
Marq. Worcester.
Marq. Dorchester.
Robertus Comes Lyndsey, Magnus Camerarius Angliæ.
Jacobus Comes Brecknock, Senescallus Hospitii Domini Regis.
Edwardus Comes Manchester, Camerarius Hospitii Domini Regis.
Comes Oxon.
Comes Kent.
Comes Derby.
Comes Bedford.
Comes Dorsett.
Comes Bridgwater.
Comes North'ton.
Comes Midd.
Comes Clare.
Comes Berks.
Comes Rivers.
Comes Dover.
Comes Petriburgh.
Comes Chesterfeild.
Comes Strafford.
Comes Sunderland.
Comes Scarsdale.
Comes Rochester.
Comes St. Albans.
Comes Sandwich.
Comes Essex.
Comes Cardigan.
Comes Anglesey.
Comes Carlile.
Comes Craven.
Comes Aylisbury.
Comes Burlington.
Vicecomes Mountagu.
Vicecomes de Stafford.
Vicecomes Fauconberg.
Vicecomes Hallyfax.
Ds. Arlington, One of the Principal Secretaries of State.
Ds. Awdley.
Ds. Berkeley.
Ds. Eure.
Ds. Wharton.
Ds. Willoughby.
Ds. Chandos.
Ds. Petre.
Ds. Arundell.
Ds. Grey.
Ds. Coventry.
Ds. Howard de Esc.
Ds. Mohun.
Ds. Powis.
Ds. Newport.
Ds. Hatton.
Ds. Widdrington.
Ds. Ward.
Ds. Colepeper.
Ds. Lucas.
Ds. Bellasis.
Ds. Gerrard.
Ds. Crofts.
Ds. Holles.
Ds. Delamer.
Ds. Townsend.
Ds. Ashley.
Ds. Crewe.
Ds. Freschevile.
Ds. Butler.
Ds. Howard de Castle Rysing.

PRAYERS.

Howard's Bill.

Hodie 2a vice lecta est Billa, "An Act to enable Charles Howard Esquire and Mary his Wife to levy a Fine, and suffer a Recovery, of their Estate in the Manor of Darking."

ORDERED, That the Consideration of this Bill be committed to these Lords following:

Dux Bucks.
Comes Bridgwater.
Comes Berks.
Comes Dover.
Comes Petriburgh.
Comes Essex.
Comes Anglesey.
Comes Aylisbury.
Vicecomes Mountagu.
Vicecomes Fauconberg.
Arch. Cant.
Epus. London.
Epus. Winton.
Epus. Sarum.
Ds. Eure.
Ds. Chandos.
Ds. Mohun.
Ds. Powis.
Ds. Bellasis.
Ds. Townsend.

Their Lordships, or any Five; to meet To-morrow Morning, at Nine of the Clock, in the Prince's Lodgings.

Sir Thomas Ogle's Bill.

The Earl of Anglesey reported, "That the Committee have considered the Bill for to enable the Trustees to sell the Manor, Lands, and Leases, of Sir Thomas Ogle Knight, deceased, for raising a Portion and present Maintenance for his Daughter and Heir, and for Payment of his Debts; and, having received the Consents of all Persons therein concerned, their Lordships do think it fit to pass as it is."

Hodie 3a vice lecta est Billa, "An Act to enable Trustees to sell the Manor, Lands, and Leases, of Sir Thomas Ogle Knight, deceased, for raising a Portion and present Maintenance for his Daughter and Heir, and for Payment of his Debts."

The Question being put, "Whether this Bill shall pass?"

It was Resolved in the Affirmative.

River Wey Bill.

Hodie 1 a vice lecta est Billa, "An Act for settling and preserving the Navigation of the River Wey, the County of Surrey."

London Streets Bill.

Hodie 1 a vice lecta est Billa, "An Act for the better paving and cleansing the Streets and Sewers in and about the City of London."

The Earl of Dorset reported, "That the Committee have considered the Bill for the better Preservation of Game, and for securing of Warrens, and the several Fishings of this Realm; wherein their Lordships have made some Amendments, and added a Proviso, which are offered to the Consideration of the House."

Which Amendments and Proviso, being read Twice, were Agreed to.

Hodie 3a vice lecta est Billa, "An Act for better Preservation of Game, and securing of Warrens, and the several Fishings of this Realm."

The Question being put, "Whether this Bill, with the Amendments and Proviso, shall pass?"

It was Resolved in the Affirmative.

Herlackenden's Bill.

Hodie 2a vice lecta est Billa, "An Act for Sale of Part of the Estate of Thomas Herlackenden Esquire, for Satisfaction of a Debt due to His Majesty."

ORDERED, That the Consideration of this Bill is committed to these Lords following:

Dux Monmouth.
Comes Kent.
Comes Derby.
Comes Dorset.
Comes North'ton.
Comes Clare.
Comes Petriburgh.
Comes Strafford.
Comes Sunderland.
Comes Scarsdale.
Comes St. Albans.
Comes Cardigan.
Comes Craven.
Comes Aylisbury.
Comes Burlington.
Vicecomes Mountagu.
Arch. Cant.
Epus. London.
Epus. Winton.
Epus. Ely.
Epus. Sarum.
Epus. Petriburgh.
Epus. Oxon.
Epus. Lyncolne.
Ds. Eure.
Ds. Chandos.
Ds. Grey.
Ds. Powis.
Ds. Widdrington.
Ds. Ward.
Ds. Colepeper.
Ds. Lucas.
Ds. Crofts.
Ds. Delamer.
Ds. Ashley.
Ds. Freschevile.

Their Lordships, or any Five; to meet on Wednesday next, at Three of the Clock in the Afternoon, in the Prince's Lodgings.

Workhouses Bill.

The Bishop of Sarum reported, "That the Committee for the Bill for the better regulating Workhouses have made some Amendments therein, which are offered to the Consideration of the House."

Which Amendments are appointed to be read Tomorrow Morning.

The Earl of Dorset, Lord Widdrington, and the Lord Howard of Castle Rysing, are added to the Committee for the Bill concerning Mr. Charles Howard.

Recovery of Fines and Forfeitures Bill.

The Earl of Dorset reported, "That the Committee have considered the Bill for the better and more certain Recovery of Fines and Forfeitures due to His Majesty, and have made some Amendments therein."

Which, being read Twice, were Agreed to.

Hodie 3a vice lecta est Billa, "An Act for better and more certain Recovery of Fines and Forfeitures due to His Majesty."

The Question being put, "Whether this Bill, with the Amendments now read, shall pass?"

It was Resolved in the Affirmative.

Message to H. C. with it, and the Game Bill.

A Message was sent to the House of Commons, by Sir John Coell and Sir William Beversham:

1. To return the Bill for the better preserving of Game, with the Amendments made by this House; and to desire the Concurrence of the House of Commons thereunto.

2. To return the Bill for better Recovery of Fines and Forfeitures due to His Majesty, wherein the Lords have made some Amendments; and to desire the Concurrence of the House of Commons thereunto.

Report of the Conference concerning the Bill for additional Impositions on Foreign Commodities, the Brandy Bill, and about the Lords making Amendments to Money Bills.

Next, the Earl of Anglesey, and the rest of the Lords that managed the Conference with the House of Commons on Saturday last, concerning the Amendments in the Bill, intituled, "An additional Imposition on several Foreign Commodities, and for the Encouragement of several Commodities and Manufactures of this Kingdom," reported the Effect of the said Conference:

"He said, Mr. Attorney General was the First Man who spake; and told their Lordships, That the Commons had desired this Conference upon the Subjectmatter of the last Conference, which was concerning the Act of Imposition, intituled, "An additional Imposition on several Foreign Commodities; and for the Encouragement of several Commodities and Manufactures of this Kingdom." He said, In the End of it, your Lordships communicated the Form of an Address to His Majesty, against the Use of, and to discountenance those that do use, Foreign Manufactures in Prejudice of our own; which they chearfully concur in, and humbly thank your Lordships for: They differ so much in the rest, that he fears this is the only Thing they agree in; but hope for a good Agreement in Conclusion, the Commons having done as much as they can, to narrow the Differences.

"He said, In several Clauses, we had varied the Rates, in Sums, in the Species, and in the Time.

"They desire nothing that is not the Subject-matter may come into Debate between us (that is, concerning the Right of laying Impositions on the Subject in general); the present Question being concerning Rates and Impositions on Merchandize only. And in this there is a fundamental Right in the House of Commons, both as to the Matter and the Measure, and the Time, unalterable, and which they cannot part with. He told us, we have formerly agreed a Book of Rates without so much as seeing it, signed by the Speaker Sir Harbottle Grimston, 12° Caroli IIdi, confirmed 13° of King Charles, which they sent not up, left your Speaker might sign it too, whereas never Book of Rates was read in the Lords House.

"The Title they have to the giving Aids, is the only poor Thing the Commons can value themselves upon to their Prince. If there be any Fault in this Bill, 'tis that they mentioned any Rates at all in particular.

"If they had sent up a Bill of Six Lines, referring to a Book of Rates, there could be no Reason why your Lordships should not have agreed to that, with the same Deference to the House of Commons, as you did for the other Book of Rates 12° Car'l. IIdi. We desire we may not dispute what is not the Question. The Rates upon Goods and Merchandize is that before us.

"They sent it this Way, to shew their Duty to the King, and Respects to the Lords; and never supposed it would be made a Handle of Difference to obstruct the Gift for ever, as if it were too great to get through.

"Your Lordships begin a new Thing. We find ourselves possessed of it in all Ages, and find not One Grant of Tonnage and Poundage that is not barely the Gift of the Commons. They hope your Lordships will not now go about to assume this; a Right so fundamentally settled in the Commons, that I cannot give a Reason for it, for that would be a Weakening of the Commons Right and Privilege, which we can never depart from, being affirmatively possessed of it in all Ages, and negatively as to the Lords. But, out of Respect to your Lordships, we have called ourselves to Account upon the Reasons of our Proceedings in this Bill; and do find that nothing that we have done in it is against the Interest of Trade; but no Syllable of the Variations made by your Lordships but is prejudicial to the Balance of Trade. Some intrusted therewith will present your Lordships the Reasons we shall offer; and though the Expressions should be somewhat harsh in the maintaining the Right and Privilege of the House of Commons, we desire all may be received with Candour and Patience, and you would give it a fair Interpretation.

"The next that spoke was Sir Robert Howard, for the particular Amendments.

"In the Title, the Commons agree to the Amendment ["Manufactures"].

"In the 2d Skin, Line 37, Sugars at a Halfpenny Half Farthing, they disagree.

"The Reasons of this of Sugar were given by Sir Robert Carr; why the Commons did impose Four Times as much upon White Sugars of the Plantations as upon Brown:

"1. That, upon hearing the Planters, the Merchants, and the Refiners, and other best Informations they could get, they found that the Proportion of Three to One was the truest Medium for converting Brown Sugar into White; and then, considering that when the Sugar is brought hither from the Plantations White, Two Thirds of the Cask, and Two Thirds of the Carriage in the said Plantation to the Water-side, and Two Thirds of the Freight hither, is thereby saved; and also, considering how much Labour is cheaper there than here, they doing all by their Slaves, who work (as it were) for nothing; the Commons did thereupon conclude, that, having laid One Farthing per Pound upon the Brown, they could not impose less than one Penny upon the White.

"2. In all Barters made in The Barbadoes, they do usually allow Four Pounds of Brown Sugar for One of White, or more; and sometimes Six or Seven Pounds for Superfine Whites; and the like Proportion is observed in Payment of the Custom there, when the 4 & ½ per Cent. is not paid in Kind.

"3. Four Pounds of Brown Sugar do not generally yield and produce so much in Value at this Market (all Charges being deducted) as One Pound of White, as appears by the Barbadoe Merchants Accompts; and the like will appear by the Difference of the Prices between Brown Sugar from the Plantations and the Refined Sugar made here, some being sold at less, and other at more, than Four to One Difference; and so Four to One seems to be the nearest Medium.

"4. In the Book of Rates, Brown Sugars from the Plantations pay Eighteen Pence the Hundred Weight, and White pay Five Shillings the Hundred Weight; which goes by the Proportion of between 3 and 4 to One: And yet, under that Proportion of Payment, the Making of White Sugars in the Plantations hath had its Beginning, and every Year grown; and consequently no Reason can be given to lessen that Proportion.

"5. It is true, that but One Halfpenny Half Farthing is to be re-paid by this Bill upon Exportation of Sugars refined here; but then it is also to be considered, that One Half Farthing per Pound is also to be re-paid for the Syrups exported; which considered, together with the Difference of the Charge of Land and Sea Carriage, and Cask, make it evident that One Penny upon Whites from the Plantations is by no Means disproportionable to One Farthing upon Browns.

"6. Brown Sugars are the Money of the Plantations, and the great Concern of the Generality of the Planters; and consequently the greatest Care is to be taken, not to over-charge the Brown Sugar; not One Planter in a Hundred being concerned in making White Sugar. And if the Rate upon White Sugars should be set so low here, a thereby to discourage the Importing of Brown Sugar, the Generality of the Planters, who do now deal immediately with the Merchants, must all be enforced to sell their Goods to those rich Planters who have Refining Houses, and would thereby gain a much greater Profit than by what they plant themselves, and the Generality of the Planters undone.

"7. If the Plague be in The Barbadoes, there is the more Reason for the Penny per Pound upon White Sugars from thence, because they have the more Want of Hands to manufacture their Sugars into Whites; and consequently it would be at this Time more improper to discourage the bringing the Sugars hither Brown, and to deliver the Bulk of the Planters, who raise only Brown Sugars, into the Hands of those few who make Whites.

"8. And if it be not inconvenient to the Plantations that the Difference of Four to One between Brown and White be observed, surely it is much more convenient to England, for that by this Means our Plantations come to need Thrice as much Cask: We have also Employment for Thrice as much Shipping for bringing of the Sugars hither; and we do gain also here in England the great Trade of Sugar-baking, by which a very great Stock and Number of People are employed here, a great Consumption of Coals, Victuals, and other Necessaries for carrying on of this Manufacture; His Majesty's Revenues by Fire, Hearths, Excise upon Beer and Ale, encreased.

"9. As to all Arguments which may be drawn from the growing of the Dutch and French in the Planting and Manufacture of Sugar, and from the great Quantities thereof from The Brazills, they do not all reach this Case; or, if any White Sugar be imported hither from any Place other than the English Plantations, it pays by this Act the same Duty as ours; and if ours be exported into any other Country, the whole Duty imposed upon it by this Act is re-paid, or the Security vacated, and to be sure the Exportations will generally be within the Time allowed for Payment of the Money; and consequently this Act doth no Way hinder the Design of our becoming Masters of the Sugar Trade.

"He concluded, They had done nothing but for the Advantage of Trade.

"In the 3 Skin, Lines 24, 25, they disagree to the leaving out certain Foreign Stuffs in that Place, and putting them in the Prohibition as the Lords had amended it.

"The next Person that spoke was Sir George Downing; who said, The Commons do well approve of the Design to encourage our own, and discourage Foreign Manufactures. Ten in the Hundred ad Valorem did sufficiently do this.

"Trade is to be gained by Degrees, and not leaped into at once. They go no further now:

"1. Because most of the Manufacturers who lived about London were taken away by the Plague; a few now would engross all the Trade; those left are not enough to manufacture those Stuffs. After a few Years, a total Prohibition may be made.

"2. Divers are prohibited by this Act; which was a Reason why they would do no more, lest they open Foreigners Eyes for Retaliation.

"3. They had an Eye to the Address to the King, which your Lordships sent down, and was very welcome to us. This, with Ten in the Hundred, will do the Work, without provoking Foreigners.

"The next Amendment was in the 3 Skin, after ["Silk"] read ["of Turky"]; to which they cannot agree.

"Sir George Downing said, 'Tis not Silk of Turky, but from Turky; now little of the Silk is of Turky Growth, but most of Persia. This would have made a Difference at the Custom House, which were Turky, which Persia Silk, from the same Port. The Commons have endeavoured to avoid Ambiguity in this Bill. All Variation of Phrase from the Book of Rates occasions Suits; as in the Brandy, there is nothing of Turky Silk there. As to the Hardship on the Spaniards and Italians, it puts no Strait on them, they bringing from the first Port of Shipping.

"In the 4th Skin, 12 Line, Three Hundred Weight of Salt for Barwick Salmon, they agree not. The Reason for the Design was, to encourage other Salts; Cape Verde Salt costs us nothing. The Portugall Trade is one of the best we have. We want Returns thence extremely: You would vent more to Portugall if you would make more Returns. On the other Hand, French Trade sucks the Marrow, eats the Bones, and is the Canker that devours you; all our heavy Money goes thither, and Bills of Exchange from Cales, Leghorne, Hamborough, and all other Parts, ride Post to France, to balance your Trade there. Salt from St. Ubas, &c. will help to balance; and the more Salt, the less Sugar comes, which advantages your Plantation and Navigation. The Navigation from France is short, the other long. The French, by their Exaction of Fifty Soulz per Tun, have almost beaten you out of carrying Salt in your Shipping. This Kingdom hath had Difference often with France; and they would, if they could, debar you their Salt, as they have heightened it almost to a Prohibition; therefore it concerns you to provide Salt elsewhere. St. Ubas Salt, and our White, is sufficient to do our Work. The Newfoundland Trade is split Fish, and carried on with Cape Verde Salt. The Dutch did heal their Fish with French Salt, but now mingle Portugall with One Third of their own Salt; and they do not doubt Barwick may learn the same as others have done; but, if they do not, the King may give them a Liberty, it being not forbidden. Exempting a Place is bating a 'Subsidy, against the First Reason.

"In the 8 Skin, concerning the Isle of Man, and ["June"] instead of ["May"], they disagree to: The general Reason, opened by the learned Gentleman by me, extends to all, and is a Reason against this; for Taxes are altered, and Time laid, by your Lordships, which we cannot agree to. And the same Reason is for putting the Stuffs prohibited by your Lordships in the Place we sent them up under a Rate.

"In the 8 Skin, 29 Line, this Amendment deferred till the Brandy Clause come, which is after.

"As for the Proviso for Indian Cabinets, we refer to the general Reason given by Mr. Attorney.

"Sir Robert Howard said, The Reason for not agreeing about Corn and Coals will be given by another.

"Then Colonel Birch said, We do not agree to your Reasons, which were these:

"Ob. 1. 'Twas new.

"Answer. When the Commons are enforced to lay new Charges, they must find new Ways to enable to bear them.

"The Exportation of Beef, Butter, Cheese, are all new; our Ancestors kept them in: Now they bear a better Rate, and keep Lands from falling lower, which they would have done if they had not been exported.

"2. Ob. It may bring a Dearth.

"Answer. Not possible, having Trade with all the World; but Six Pence a Bushel more, hinders all Transportation.

"3. Ob. Other Countries may return the Corn back dearer.

"Answer. That runs to all other Commodities; it's Reason they should bring it back, if it grow dear here.

4. Ob. There are more Buyers than Sellers.

"Answer. A material Objection; but it's best with the Buyer when Corn is at a moderate Rate, and worst when Cheap, for else People will not work.

"2. Stockings are dear when Corn is cheap, because People will not work.

"3. It's the Disease of the present Time, that People get as much in Three Days as will serve the Week; yet they lay not up, but spend it luxuriously.

"4. If Corn bear not a good Rate, and Wages lessened, the Gentry and Commonalty must fall into Poverty insensibly.

"5. Ob. It was not certain much would be carried out.

"Answer. This thwarts some of the former Reasons; but, if it should not, the King would not be in Danger of paying for it; and it shews the People, the King's Care of the Poor Husbandman that hath laboured at Loss for Three Years past, who, to make Corn valuable, would pay for the Transportation out of His own Purse. A Bushel of Wheat stands the Sower in Five Shillings and Six Pence, Rye Three Shillings, Barley Half a Crown; so that all have traded to Loss. There is Scarcity of Eaters of Corn; and unless we make Corn a Commodity, we shall sink; 'tis not the Plenty of Corn that causeth the Cheapness, but want of Eaters.

"6. Ob. This is contrary to the Wisdom of our Ancestors.

"Answer. The Reason is not the same: 1st, The Country was much wooded heretofore; and, Secondly, had not that Trade with Foreign Nations: If we make not a Commodity, we shall not know which Way to turn, because so much Land is tilled.

"Four or Five Ships were carried to The Canaries heretofore, that raised Corn Sixteen Pence a Bushel as far as Worcestershire. They will sow more, if they may transport. The Price of Corn goes much by the Humour. Twelve Pence a Bushel Gain by Corn will yield as much to the People as this Subsidy. You employ Seamen and Shipping; and Twenty Shillings is gained for Six Pence in Employment of People for every Bushel carried out, and 'twill encourage Navigation.

"For the Coal; most of the Reasons for Corn stand good for Coal, and the Commons have always raised or lowered at their Pleasure on Commodities, as you heard learnedly opened.

"Your First Reason was, There would be no more Consumption by taking it off.

"Answer. This is against common Experience: The Eight Shillings is Twelve Pence above the Price of Coals. Instance of Scotland to prove this: In 1659, 7500 Chaldron exported; in 1663, the Coals being let fall to Eight Pence Tax, 27250 Chaldrons were exported, and none of this to England. This seems a Demonstration; and, I believe, since, 50000 Chaldrons hath been carried out in a Year.

"2. Ob. In 1660, though an Abatement was made, it did no Good.

"Answer. Your Lordships had not the whole Truth before you; because, 'tis true, the Parliament (that is, the Commons) made an Abatement: But the Scotch sunk theirs also; and that made our Abatement ineffectual. Underselling us in Coal brings the Dutch thither, and we lose them: An empty Cart coming to Market will bring something Home.

"Now as to the main Design: The Mines of The Indies do not equal us; if you let Coal go, it brings Money.

"Coal can never fail, nor be lost, but when Springs come in for Want of Working. If Newcastle had not Vent, they could not bear the Charge.

"Coal lies, from Carlile North to South-wales, Two Yards thick, and most by the Sea Side, ready for Transportation.

"It increases our Navigation and Seamen, as Fish doth.

"I desire you would consider the general Reason for the Whole.

"London itself heretofore used little Coal; but now, Coal almost wholly. It will be so in other Places, if we will let it be exported.

"For these Reasons, the Commons do not agree.

"After this, Mr. Attorney General spake thus:

"You object a Propriety, where a noble Person hath not been heard.

"We put it upon the Point of Grievance in the Consequence; in which Case the King doth not refuse to give Redress: If there be any Patent, that in the Execution proves grievous.

"Then Colonel Birch said, I hope, this Grant being only in Question, shall not hinder so great a Good. Where-ever there is a Giving, there is a Taking still; as in most of the Bills of late: Ten Groats a Chaldron taken off in 1660, without coming to the Lords; Threescore Thousand Pounds granted to the indigent Officers in One Act of Supply, and Two Subsidies given by the Clergy, were taken off in an Act for a Monthly Assessment; as Mr. Attorney said in Answer to your Lordships Objections.

"Then Mr. Vaughan spoke concerning Corn and Coal:

"1. Ob. It was not usual to mix heterogeneous Things in a Bill.

"2. Ob. It is repugnant to give and take away by the same Bill.

"Answer. When we give upon Condition, we must not lose it.

"For the First; we have Precedents; and for the Second, Magna Charta, Chap. 37. a Subsidy granted in the very Charter.

"13 Ed. III. N. 7. The Commons grant Wool on Conditions by Indenture: If the King like not the Condition, they grant nothing.

"22 Ed. III. N. 6. Three Fifteenths, upon Condition a Subsidy might cease, &c.

"Scarce a Subsidy in Queen Eliz. or King James' Times, but Six Thousand Pounds given for decayed Corporations.

"After this, Sir Richard Temple spoke:

"Your Lordships are so well acquainted with the Rolls of Parliament, that you know, in most Grants, there was a Quid pro Quo.

"2 R. II. N. 13. Here Monies given in a former Parliament were released.

"14 E. III. 15 E. III. Cap. 1. Conditions enacted. 14 R. II. Neither of these Clauses are foreign to the Bill, being to encourage Home Trade, and charge Foreign; which is the Title of the Bill. In the Act of Tonnage and Poundage, Money given back; and so for poor Corporations in all the Dismes and Fifteenths.

"Then Sir Robert Howard said, In the Proviso B. after Corn and Coal, for Justices of Peace to relieve Men:

"1st. We conceive they are made a Judicature, which is contrary to the Law, the Courts being already settled for that: It gives them an arbitrary Power.

"2. This makes Things more easy, that we would make strict. This discourages Informers, and is prejudicial to the Customs. They have the Power of Judges and Juries lodged in them, not mentioning what Proof is sufficient, nor whether it is to be upon Oath. This Proviso is arbitrary in all respects; supersedes the Court of Exchequer.

"As to the Amendment of 30 Tuns for 20, the Commons agree: But to the Amendment of the Day, of June the 1st, for May the 1st, for the general Reason given at first, they do not agree.

"Concerning the last Amendment, which is of Brandy, he said, he was sorry, after so long wasting their Lordships Patience, he must say so much in this.

"In the Bill of Brandy sent up to your Lordships, you have made some Amendments, waving the Prohibition, and laid an Imposition, and changed the Time to 1671, for 1670.

"Here the Commons were neither allowed to lay a Tax, nor to judge what was fit to be the Tax; and the Time being inserted by your Lordships, the Time cannot be altered by us.

"The Time, the Laying, and the Quantum, being denied, nothing is left to the Commons that they can pretend to in Money; that which seems more like Unparliamentary in your Lordships than that for which we received that Term from your Lordships: And your Lordships ought to look upon it as an unhappy Necessity, occasioned by your Lordships sending us that Bill so altered.

"Ob. By this Way we might annex Things of foreign Nature to Bills of Money, make another Magna Charta.

"Answer. It cannot be a Blemish to be like Magna Charta; methinks, nothing like that should be found Fault with; nothing can be closer to the Nature of the Bill than this is to the Bill; it agrees with the Title fully; therefore we wonder your Lordships should call it foreign to the Bill, or should look upon this as an Example to annex foreign Things to a Bill of Money.

"The Commons would do any Thing that may leave them the Shadow of their Right. But, to induce your Lordships further, they give these Reasons:

"1. Reason and Experience dictated Prohibition to be the best Way; that cannot be evaded; Composition else may be made by Farmers, without Discovery.

"Experience is for this: Brandy, charged at Four Shillings a Gallon, came in and sold for Three. This takes from the King's Revenue indeed; but we give a Recompense, which improves our own Manufactures.

"They must now brew Strong Beer, and not use Wash and Tilts; which will not bear Two Pence a Gallon, and that will spend Corn.

"This will beat out the French Brandy, which mischieves us.

"Fleets have been supplied to The Indies, in Crumwell's Time, with English Brandy.

"This is close to the Bill, and as close to our Interest.

"I sum up all in Three Heads:

"1. The Necessity came from your Lordships, from whom it was Two Years a coming.

"2. Brandy is close to the Nature of the Bill.

"3. It secures our own Vent and Manufactures, and hinders Foreign.

"To conclude: Your Lordships cannot believe we, in the same Barque with your Lordships, should desire Storms: We give freely, to prevent them. We are commanded also to say, we should not pursue our own Interest, if we did not labour for Accommodation. We have done all we can, to invite the Lords to a happy Concurrence.

"Then Sir Richard Temple said, I am commanded to back all with some Observations on your Lordships Precedents: Under Favour to your Precedents, I find at the same Time you sent down for a Conference, March 13, 1580, which was reported in the House of Commons, and they justified it by the Entry; the Issue was, you did proceed on the new Bill.

"The Second Precedent, 29 Eliz. 'Twas in a private Bill, which we have no Entry of, I shall now observe, in the Year 1660, Dec. 6, "An Act against planting Tobacco in England," an Office and Fees was erected in it: We laid it aside, and sent a new one, which the Lords passed.

"It hath been observed to your Lordships, the Irregularity of sending us down a Bill for Prohibition turned into a Bill for an Imposition; trenching hereby on the Right of the House of Commons, in beginning an Imposition. The Substance is the same in both, we differ only in the Way; so that we hope you will agree.

"Mr. Attorney concluded:

"My Lords,

"Aids were never more necessary; and this is no common Present, a Grant for Nine Years, and cannot miscarry but upon Difference between the Two Houses. We desire that in no Place, upon no Occasion, they may be made wider.

"There are Two Differences upon it:

"1. Difference in Judgement and Opinion; we hope we have satisfied you therein fully.

"2. In Interest and Privilege: This is in a narrow Compass, we stand upon this; Rates on Merchandize you never did impose, never diminish. Books of Rates have been kept from you, left you should inquire into them.

"Nothing so dangerous as Differences, nothing so Unparliamentary. My Lords, pray let nothing be done Unparliamentary."

Lords assert their Right to make Amendments to Money Bill.

Upon the Report of this last Conference with the House of Commons, and Consideration had thereupon: It is Resolved, upon the Question, by the Lords Spiritual and Temporal in Parliament assembled, Nemine contradicente, That the Power exercised by the House of Peers, in making the Amendments and Abatements in the Bill, intituled, "An Act for an additional Imposition on several Foreign Commodities, and for the Encouragement of several Commodities and Manufactures of this Kingdom," both as to the Matter, Measure, and Time, concerning the Rates and Impositions on Merchandize, is a fundamental, inherent, and undoubted Right of the House of Peers, from which they cannot depart.

Committee to prepare Reasons for Support of it.

ORDERED, by the Lords Spiritual and Temporal in Parliament assembled, That the same Lords who reported the last Conference with the House of Commons (the Lord Newport added to them) do meet this Afternoon, and prepare Reasons and Precedents, and what else is fit to be offered at a Conference, to maintain this Resolution of this House; and make Report thereof to this House.

King's Pleasure, when to be attended.

ORDERED, by the Lords Spiritual and Temporal in Parliament assembled, That the Lord Steward of His Majesty's Household, and the Lord Chamberlain of His Majesty's Household, shall attend His Majesty from this House, to know His Pleasure, what Time His Majesty will please to appoint for both Houses of Parliament to attend Him, with their humble Address for the Encouragement of the wearing the Manufactures of this Kingdom.

Committees adjourned.

ORDERED, That all Committees are put off from sitting this Afternoon; only the Committee for Mr. Herlackenden's Bill, who are to meet this Afternoon, at Four of the Clock.

Adjourn.

Dominus Custos Magni Sigilli declaravit præsens Parliamentum continuandum esse usque in post meridiem hujus instantis diei, hora quinta, Dominis sic decernentibus.

Post meridiem.

Domini tam Spirituales quam Temporales præsentes fuerunt:

His Royal Highness the Duke of Yorke.
Arch. Cant.
Epus. Winton.
Epus. Sarum.
Epus. Carlile.
Epus. Lyncolne.
Epus. Chester.
Sir Orlando (fn. *) Bridgman, Mil. et Bar. Ds. Custos Magni Sigilli.
Dux Bucks.
Edwardus Comes Manchester, Camerarius Hospitii Domini Regis.
Comes Bedford.
Comes Dorsett.
Comes Bridgwater.
Comes North'ton.
Comes Clare.
Comes Berks.
Comes Rivers.
Comes Petriburgh.
Comes Essex.
Comes Cardigan.
Comes Anglesey.
Comes Carlile.
Comes Craven.
Comes Aylisbury.
Ds. Arlington, One of the Principal Secretaries of State.
Ds. Eure.
Ds. Wharton.
Ds. Willoughby.
Ds. Chandos.
Ds. Petre.
Ds. Howard de Esc.
Ds. Mohun.
Ds. Powis.
Ds. Newport.
Ds. Hatton.
Ds. Widdrington.
Ds. Ward.
Ds. Colepeper.
Ds. Lucas.
Ds. Holles.
Ds. Delamer.
Ds. Townsend.
Ds. Ashley.
Ds. Freschevile.

PRAYERS.

London Streets Bill.

Hodie 2a vice lecta est Billa, "An Act for the better paving and cleansing the Streets and Sewers in and about the City of London."

ORDERED, That the Consideration of this Bill be committed to these Lords following:

Dux Bucks.
Comes Bedford.
Comes Dorsett.
Comes North'ton.
Comes Clare.
Comes Petriburgh.
Comes Carlile.
Vicecomes Mountagu.
Vicecomes Hallyfax.
Arch. Cant.
Epus. Winton.
Epus. Sarum.
Epus. Petriburgh.
Epus. Lyncolne.
Epus. Chester.
Ds. Eure.
Ds. Wharton.
Ds. Howard Esc.
Ds. Mohun.
Ds. Powis.
Ds. Newport.
Ds. Widdrington.
Ds. Ward.
Ds. Colepeper.
Ds. Lucas.
Ds. Townsend.
Ds. Delamer.

Their Lordships, or any Five of them; to meet To-morrow, at Nine of the Clock in the Morning, in the Prince's Lodgings.

River Wey Bill.

Hodie 2a vice lecta est Billa, "An Act for settling and preserving the Navigation of the River Wey, in the County of Surrey."

ORDERED, That the Consideration of this Bill be committed to these Lords following:

D. Bucks.
Comes Bedford.
Comes Dorset.
Comes North'ton.
Comes Clare.
Comes Petriburgh.
Comes Carlile.
Vicecomes Mountagu.
Vicecomes Hallyfax.
Arch. Cant.
Epus. Winton.
Epus. Sarum.
Epus. Petriburgh.
Epus. Lyncolne.
Epus. Chester.
Ds. Eure.
Ds. Wharton.
Ds. Howard Esc.
Ds. Mohun.
Ds. Powis.
Ds. Newport.
Ds. Widdrington.
Ds. Ward.
Ds. Colepeper.
Ds. Lucas.
Ds. Townsend.
Ds. Delamer.

Their Lordships, or any Five; to meet To-morrow Morning, at Nine of the Clock, in the Lord Treasurer's Lodging.

Ayliffe and Reading quarrel before the Committee for Workhouses Bill.

Upon Complaint made to this House, by the Petition of Michaell Baker, Anthony Trethewy, and others, and Report made by the Lord Bishop of Sarum, of some Differences and Provocations which happened on Saturday last, between Joseph Ayliffe Esquire and Nathaniell Reading Esquire, Counsellors at Law, while they were attending the Lords Committees then sitting upon the Bill for the better regulating of Workhouses, &c. in the Lord Keeper's Lodgings, near the House of Peers:

It is ORDERED, by the Lords Spiritual and Temporal in Parliament assembled, That the said Joseph Ayliff and Nathaniell Reading be, and are hereby, required to appear at the Bar of this House To-morrow Morning.

Indigent Officers Bill.

ORDERED, That the Committee for the Bill concerning indigent Officers do meet at the Rising of this House.

Adjourn.

Dominus Custos Magni Sigilli declaravit præsens Parliamentum continuandum esse usque in diem Martis, 18um diem instantis Aprilis, hora decima Aurora, Dominis sic decernentibus.

Hitherto examined by us,

Derby.
Dorsett.
J. Bridgewater.
Northampton.
Dover.
Anglesey.
Craven.
Stafford.
Edw. Carliol.
Geo. Eure.
Holles.

Footnotes

* Origin. Bridgwman.