DIE Mercurii, 19 die Aprilis.
Domini tam Spirituales quam Temporales præsentes
|His Royal Highness the Duke of Yorke.|
|Sir Orlando Bridgman, Miles et Bar. Ds. Custos Magni Sigilli.
Robertus Comes Lyndsey, Magnus Camerarius Anglia.
Jacobus Comes Brecknock, Senescallus Hospitii Domini Regis.
Edwardus Comes Manchester, Camerarius Hospitii Domini Regis.
Comes St. Albans.
Vicecomes de Stafford.
|Ds. Arlington, One of the Principal Secretaries of State.|
Ds. Howard de Esc.
vice lecta est Billa, "An Act for Sale of
Part of the Estate of Thomas Herlakenden Esquire, for
Satisfaction of a Debt due to His Majesty."
The Question being put, "Whether this Bill shall
It was Resolved in the Affirmative.
London Streets Bill.
The Lord Powis reported the Bill for paving the
Streets in London, as fit to pass without any Amendments.
vice lecta est Billa, "An Act for the better
paving and cleansing the Streets and Sewers in and
about the City of London."
The Question being put, "Whether this Bill shall
It was Resolved in the Affirmative.
Poor Prisoners Bill.
The Amendments which the House of Commons made
to the Bill concerning Relief of poor Prisoners, were
read Thrice, and Agreed to.
Small Feefarm Rents Bill.
The Amendments and Provisos which the House of
Commons sent up to the Bill concerning Fee-farm Rents,
were read Thrice, and the Provisos marked A. B.
are Agreed to; but the Proviso marked C. not Agreed
Message from H. C. with the Poor of London Bill, for Discovery of Frauds.
A Message was brought from the House of Commons,
by Sir John Frederick and others:
To return the Bill for Discovery of such as have defrauded the Poor of the City of London of the Monies
given for their Relief at the Times of the late Plague
and Fire, and for Recovery of the Arrears thereof; and
to acquaint their Lordships, that the House of Commons
agrees to their Lordships Amendments therein.
A Message was brought from the House of Commons,
by Sir John Birkenhead and others:
To return the Bill for better regulating of Workhouses, &c. which was sent down with some Amendments, to which the Commons do agree.
Report of Reasons and Precedents for a Conference with the H. C. on the Bill for additional Impositions on Foreign Commodities; and about the Lords making Amendments inMoneyBills.
The Earl of Anglesey and the other Lords as were appointed to prepare Reasons and Precedents, and what
else is fit to be offered at a Conference with the House
of Commons, to maintain the Resolution of this House,
made the 17th of this Instant April, and also to consider
of an Answer to the Objections made by the House of
Commons to their Lordships Amendments made in the
Bill for an additional Imposition upon Foreign Commodities, reported, First, an Answer to the Objections against
the Abatement of the Rates upon Sugars, as followeth:
"1. The Lords say, The Reasons delivered at the
Conference do not convince their Lordships to alter
their former Opinion, That the Proportion of 2 &
½ is the best Medium for converting Brown Sugar
into White; and it is affirmed to their Lordships,
that when Sugar is brought hither from the Plantations White, there is not ⅓ of the Cask saved, nor
½ of the Carriage from the Plantation to the Waterside, and not a ¼ of the Freight; and that, though the
Planters do pay no Wages to their Slaves, yet they
cost very dear, considering the Price they buy them
at, and the Charge they are at to maintain them;
and besides, it seems to their Lordships most equitable, to lay the Imposition according to the Proportion
of the Materials, and not according to the Skill or
Advantages of the Manufacturers thereof.
"2. It is affirmed unto their Lordships, That in all
Barters made in the Island of Barbadoes, 2 & ½ is
the Medium Proportion between the several Sorts
of White Sugars that pay Customs as White here,
and Muscavadoes; and that Superfine Whites are
seldom made there, unless designed for a Present.
"3. It was affirmed unto their Lordships, and made
appear by the Planters Accompts, that 1 lb. of Whites
did not yield and produce as much in Value at this
Market as 2 and ½ Pounds of Muscavadoes: And
it was also made appear to their Lordships, that
there were Errors in those Accompts presented them
by the Merchants, to shew that 4lb. of Muscavodoes
did not clear so much as One Pound of White Sugar;
and it was also affirmed, That the Refiners did sell
Refined Sugar of a better Standard, than the best
Clayed Whites (of which Sort is Nine Tenths of the
Whites) that comes from the Plantations, and all that
come from Brasile for less than 2½ Times, as much as
they gave for the Muscavodes to make it with; which
plainly shews that 2 lb. & ½ of Muscavadoes will
make more than 1 lb. of Whites, or the Refiners are
Losers by turning Brown Sugars into Whites.
"4. Though the former Imposition in the Book of
Rates should have been unequal, yet the Custom on
Whites thereby being but 3s. 6d. per Cent. more
than upon Browns, the Planter did endure it much
better than it is possible to expect upon this additional
high Impost, which will make White Sugars of the
Plantations pay 10s. 6d. per Cent. more than the
Browns, and, is much to be feared, will cause the
Planter to make little or no White Sugar.
"5. The ½ Farthing paid back upon Syrups can be
no great Encouragement to export Refined sugar; for
English Syrups are of late in a Manner prohibited
in Holland, the Place of their chiefest Vent.
"6. It is true, Brown Sugars at present are the
Money of The Barbadoes, but it were to be wished it
were not; for then the Kingdom would be better
enabled to beat Foreigners out of the Trade, and the
Planters manage their Plantations to better Profit;
there being no Sugar Planter so mean, nor any considerable additional Charge needful to hinder any
One Planter to manufacture so much of it, as is proper, into White Sugar, and so reap the Benefit thereof
himself, and not be obliged to other Men for the
venting their Muscavadoes.
"7. A very few additional Hands will clay and
whiten Sugars, which is the greatest Profit of the
Planters, and in which most of them are concerned;
and the Plague (doubtless) will impoverish the Country; which makes it much compassionate, as well as
our Interest, to give them Ease and Encouragement.
"8. Their Lordships conceive, that though the Planters should be encouraged to make more White Sugar,
yet there would be nothing or very little less Cask or
Ships used in that Trade. And the Planters affirm,
that they do already use more Coals than the Refiners. And it is said, the Sugar Bakers employ not
very many People, and those are capable of using
their Industries in other Trades as useful to the Kingdom, and consume as much Victuals, and pay as
much Excise, as now. The Fire Hearths perhaps
might not be so many; but the Prejudice to His
Majesty's Revenue thereby is too inconsiderable to be
"9. The Plenty and Cheapness of White Sugars of
our own, must beat Foreigners out of the Trade;
and we see our English Refiners themselves are afraid
of being beat out of the Trade, if we should too
much encourage our Plantations; which confirms their
Lordships to think, that Foreigners will receive as
much or more Damage by such Encouragement given
to our Sugar Planters, and consequently it is likely
to contribute much to the Design of making this Kingdom Masters of the Sugar Trade."
These Reasons concerning the Sugars were approved
of; and their Lordships proceeded in the Report of
the Reasons and Precedents, as follows:
"This Conference was desired by their Lordships
upon the Subject-matter of the last Conference, concerning the Bill for Impositions on Merchandize, &c.
wherein the Commons communicated to the Lords,
as their Resolution, "That there is a fundamental
Right in that House alone, in Bills of Rates and Impositions on Merchandize, as to the Matter, the Measure, and the Time." And though their Lordships
had neither Reason nor Precedent offered by the Commons to back that Resolution, but were told "That
this was a Right so fundamentally settled in the Commons, that they could not give Reasons for it, for that
would be a weakening of the Commons Right and
Privilege;" yet the Lords in Parliament, upon full
Consideration thereof, and of that whole Conference,
are come to this Resolution, Nemine contradicente.
"That the Power exercised by the House of Peers,
in making the Amendments and Abatements in the
Bill, intituled, "An Act for an additional Imposition
on several Foreign Commodities, and for Encouragement of several Commodities and Manufactures of this
Kingdom," both as to the Matter, Measure, and Time,
concerning the Rates and Impositions on Merchandize,
is a fundamental, inherent, and undoubted Right of
the House of Peers, from which they cannot depart:
"1. The great Happiness of the Government of this
Kingdom is, That nothing can be done in order
to the Legislature, but what is considered by
both Houses before the King's Sanction be given
unto it; and the greatest Security to all the
Subjects of this Kingdom is, That the Houses,
by their Constitution, do not only give Assistance,
but are mutual Checks, to each other.
"2. Consult the Writs of Summons to Parliament;
and you will find the Lords are excluded from
none of the great and arduous Affairs of the
Kingdom and Church of England, but are called
to treat and give their Counsel upon them all,
"3. We find no Footsteps in Record or History for
this new Claim of the House of Commons; we
would see that Charter or Contract produced, by
which the Lords divested themselves of this
Right, and appropriated it to the Commons, with
an Exclusion of themselves: Till then, we cannot consent to shake or remove Foundations, in
the laying whereof it will not be denied that
the Lords and Grands of the Kingdom had the
"4. If this Right should be denied, the Lords have
not a Negative Voice allowed them in Bills of
this Nature; for, if the Lords, who have the
Power of treating, advising, giving Counsel, and
applying Remedies, cannot amend, abate, or refuse a Bill in Part, by what Consequence of
Reason can they enjoy a Liberty to reject the
Whole? When the Commons shall think fit to
question it, they may pretend the same Grounds
"5. In any Case of Judicature, which is undoubtedly
and indisputably the peculiar Right and Privilege
of the House of Lords, if their Lordships send
down a Bill to the Commons for giving Judgement in a Legislative Way, they allow and acknowledge the same Right in the Commons to
amend, change, and alter such Bills, as the Lords
have exercised in this Bill of Impositions sent up
by the Commons.
"6. By this new Maxim of the House of Commons,
a hard and ignoble Choice is left to the Lords,
either to refuse the Crown Supplies when they
are most necessary, or to consent to Ways and
Proportions of Aid, which neither their own
Judgement or Interest, nor the Good of the Government and People, can admit.
"7. If positive Assertion can introduce a Right, what
Security have the Lords, that the House of Commons shall not in other Bills (pretended to be
for the general Good of the Commons, whereof
they will conceive themselves the fittest Judges)
claim the same peculiar Privilege, in Exclusion of
any Deliberation or Alteration of the Lords,
when they shall judge it necessary or expedient.
"8. And whereas you say, "This is the only poor
Thing which you can value yourselves upon to
the King;" their Lordships have commanded us
to tell you, that they rather desire to increase,
than any Ways to diminish, the Value and Esteem
of the House of Commons, not only with His
Majesty, but with the whole Kingdom; but they
cannot give Way that it should be raised by the
Undervaluing of the House of Peers, and an Endeavour to render that House unuseful to the
King and Kingdom, by denying unto it those just
Powers which the Constitution of this Government and the Law of the Land hath lodged in it,
for the Service and Benefit of both.
"9. You did at the Conference tell us, "That we
did agree a Book of Rates, without so much as
seeing it; and that never Book of Rates was read
in the Lords House; and that the said Book of
Rates was signed by Sir Harbottle Grimston, then
Speaker of the House of Commons, and not sent
up, lest the Lords Speaker might sign it too."
The Book of Rates instanced in by the House of
Commons was made in a Way different from all
former Books of Rates, and by an Assembly
called without the King's Writs, and which wanted
so much the Authority of Parliament, that the
Act they made was no Act till confirmed by this
Parliament: Though the Work which happily
succeeded in their Hands, for Restoration of
the ancient Government of the Kingdom, will
ever be mentioned to their Honour, yet no
Measure for Parliamentary Proceedings is to be
taken from this One Instance, to the Prejudice
of the Right of the Crown in making Books of
Rates, and of the Lords in having their due Consideration thereof when they shall be enacted in
Parliament; which was so far from being according to former Usage, that the Lords, considering the Necessity and Condition of that Time,
and there being no Complaint, passed that Bill
upon Three Readings in One Day, without so
much as a Commitment, little imagining the Forwardness of their Zeal to the King's Service in
such a Time would have created an Argument
in the future against their Power; and if the
Lords never did read Books of Rates in their
House, it is as true that the House of Commons
do not pretend, nor did shew, that ever any was
read there but this."
Next, the Precedents were reported.
"Introduce the Precedents thus:
"Though, where a Right is so clear, and Reasons so
irrefragable, it is not to be required of those who are
possessed of the Right, to give Precedents to confirm
it, but those who dispute the Right ought to shew
Precedents or Judgements to the contrary (not passed
sub Silentio, but) upon the Point controverted; yet
the Lords have commanded us to offer and leave with
you these following Precedents:
"By Records both ancient and modern it doth appear,
"1. That the Lords and Commons have consulted
together, and conferred one with another, upon the
Subject of Supply to the King, and of the Manner
how the same may be levied; as, 14 E. III. N. 5.
Apres grand Tret & Parleance entre les Grandz et les
ditz Chivaliers et autres des Communes esteans eńdit Parliament, est accordes et assentus par tous les Grandz &
Communes, &c. That they grant to the King the Ninth
of Corn and Wool.
"29 E. III. N. 11. 51 E. III. N. 18. certain Lords
there named, from Time to Time, to confer with the
Commons, for their better Help in consulting for the
Raising of Money; and this sometimes by the King's
Command, as, 22 E. III. N. 3; sometimes by Motion
and Appointment of the Lords, as 5°
E. III. N. 8. and
in the Case of the great Contract for Tenures and
Jacobi, 14 Feb. 1609; sometimes by
the Desire of the Commons; as, 47 E. III. N. 6. and
4 R. II. N. 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, upon a great
Sum demanded for the King, the Commons come to
the Lords, and desire a Moderation of the Sum, and
their Consideration how it should be levied; and hereupon was granted, by Lords and Commons, Twelve
Pence of every Man, &c. It is observable that N.
13. 'tis said, "The Lords sent for the Commons
several Times before them, and proposed to them the
Manner of levying the Money; and afterwards it was
given." And again 6°
R. II. N. 14. And in the
Case of the great Contract before mentioned, 7°
Jacobi, 18 June, 1610, the Commons, at a Conference,
desire to know what Project their Lordships will propound for levying that which shall be given, other
than upon Land. And afterwards, at another Conference, by the Commons, Answer was made to the
Lords Proposal; agreed, that the Manner of levying it
may be in the most easeful and contentful Sort that by
both Houses can be devised. See the whole Proceedings of this intended Contract, which doth in several remarkable Instances shew that the House of Commons
themselves did allow the House of Peers their Part
in treating and debating on the Subject of Money to
be levied for His Majesty.
"2. That, in Aids and Subsidies, the Lords have
anciently been expressly joined with the Commons in
the Gift, as in the First we can meet with in our
Statutes, that in the Body of Magna Charta, Cap. 37.
"The Archbishops, Bishops, Abbots, Priors, Earls,
Barons, Knights, Freeholders, and other Our Subjects,
have given unto Us the 15th Part of all their Moveables" (which must include Merchandizes). This
Style the ancient Grants of Subsidies and the modern
Ones too do retain (the troublesome Time of the
Wars between the Houses of Yorke and Lancaster
only excepted, and even then 'twas, "The Commons, by Advice and Assent of the Lords, do give
and grant,)" till the Beginning of King Charles the
First. By the Words, "We Your Majesty's loyal
Subjects in Parliament assembled," implicitly; or by
the Words, "We the Lords Spiritual and Temporal
and Commons in Parliament assembled," expressly;
the Lords are joined in the Grant, as by Perusal of
the Statutes will appear.
"3. That, in Subsidies of this Nature, videlicet,
Customs, the Lords have joined with the Commons
in the Grant of them; and that at the very Beginning of these Impositions, as when Forty Shillings on
every Sack of Wool (a Home Native Commodity)
was granted to E. 1st, in the 3d Year of His Reign,
to Him and His Heirs, the Grant is, Magnates, Prelati, & tota Communitas concesserunt. See Pat. Roll.
3 E. I. M. 1. N. 1. And other ancient Rolls do
also shew that the Lords joined with the Commons in
the Gift of Monies; as, Close Roll, 3 E. I. M. 12.
in Dorso 3. Grant of a Fifteenth, and Pat. Roll.
3 E. 1. M. 6.
"4. And more particularly in Impositions of this
very Species, Tonnage and Poundage, the Lords were
even at the First Beginning joined with the Commons
in the Grant, as the Parliament Roll in the 47 E.
III. N. 10. the First Establishment of it by Act doth
declare, where it is expressly, "The Lords and
Commons do grant." And this Stile did continue in
Acts of this Nature till the End of R. II. After
which, in those troublesome Times, the Stile was
various till King Hen. VIIIth's Time; and then the
Stile of Acts of Tonnage and Poundage was, "We
the Commons, by Advice and Consent of the Lords
Spiritual and Temporal, do give and grant." This
Form of Gift in Tonnage and Poundage lasted E. VI.
Queen Mary, Queen Elizabeth, and King James's
Time, as the Statutes themselves do declare.
"5. And to prove most undeniably that the Lords
have their Share in the Gift of Aids and Supplies to
the King, see the Act of 9°
H. IV. commonly
called, "The Indemnity of the Lords and Commons;" which provides, "That the Lords shall commune apart by themselves, and the Commons by themselves;" and at the latter End enacts expressly, "That
the King shall thank both the Lords and Commons
for Subsidies given to Him."
"6. That the Lords may make Amendments and
Alterations in Bills which grant Tonnage and Poundage (the very Question now between us), appears
in an eminent Book, Case 33 H. VI. Fol. 17. (which
was a Consultation of all the Judges of England, and
the Master of the Rolls and Clerk of the Parliament,
called to inform them of the Manner of Proceedings
of Bills in Parliament), where it is said, "That if
the Commons grant Tonnage and Poundage to endure
for Four Years, and the Lords grant it but for Two
Years, it shall not be carried back to the Commons,
because it may stand with their Grant, but must be
so enrolled." And that the Lords have made Amendments and Alterations in Bills granting Tonnage and
Poundage, appears by the Stat. of 1 E. VI. and 1° of
Queen Eliz. even in the very Point now in Dispute,
such Amendments as do lessen the Sum to the King,
as the 1st of Hen. VIII. read the Proviso, &c.
"We have seriously consulted our Judgements and
Reasons, to find Objections, if it were possible, against this
Power of the Lords; and are so far from finding any,
that we are fixed in Opinion that the Want of it would
be destructive to the Government and Peace of the
Kingdom, and the Right of the Crown, in the balancing and regulating of Trade, and the making
and preserving Leagues and Treaties with Foreign
Princes and States; and the Exercise of it cannot but
be for the Security of all, and for the Ease, Benefit,
and Satisfaction of the Subject.
"Their Lordships are very far from desiring to
obstruct this Gift, no not for a Moment of Time, much
less for ever, as was hinted to them at the last Conference: And therefore they desire the House of
Commons to lay it to Heart, and consider, if it should
so happen (which they heartily wish it may not) that
there should be an Obstruction upon Occasion of this
Difference, at whose Door it must lie; those that
assume to themselves more than belongs to them, to
the Prejudice and Diminution of the others Right,
or theirs that do only exercise that just and lawful
Power which by the very Nature and constant Practice of Parliament is, and for many Ages hath been,
vested in both Houses.
"Their Lordships had under their Consideration and
Debate the desiring a Free Conference with your
House, upon the Reasons of the Amendments in Difference between the Houses; but when they found
that you had interwoven your general Position with
every Reason you had offered upon Particulars, it
seemed to them that your Judgements were prepossessed; and they hold it vain and below the Wisdom
of Parliament to reason or argue against fixed Resolutions, and upon Terms of Impossibility to persuade;
and have therefore applied themselves only to that
Point which yet remains an Impediment in the Way
of Free and Parliamentary Debates and Conferences,
which must necessarily be first removed, that so we
may come to a Free Conference upon the Bill itself,
and part with a fair Correspondence between the Two
The House agreed to this Report; and directed the same
should be delivered to the House of Commons at the
Conference in Writing.
Amendments in the Bill for additional Impositions on Foreign Commodities.
After this, the Lords took into Consideration that other
Part of the Conference with the House of Commons, concerning the Amendments made by the Lords in the Bill
for an additional Imposition upon Foreign Commodities,
&c. and not agreed to by the House of Commons.
The First was, the reducing 1d. upon Sugars to ½d.
Which being read, and the Reasons of the Commons
for their not agreeing, and also the Reasons of this House
in Answer to them being read; the Lords are not satisfied
with the Reasons of the House of Commons, but approve
of the Reasons prepared by the Committee.
As to the Clause concerning Silk (from Turky), the
Lords agree with the House of Commons to leave it as it
stands in the Bill.
Concerning the Amendment concerning Salt of Berwick. The Lords insist on that Amendment.
The Amendment concerning the Isle of Man. The
Lords insist on it.
The Amendment for changing the Month of May into
June. The Lords insist on it.
The Amendment concerning Brandy. The Lords insist
The Amendment concerning French wrought Stuffs.
The Lords wave that Amendment.
The Proviso marked A, concerning East India Cabinets. The Lords insist upon it.
The Lords agree to let the Clause concerning the exporting of Corn stand in the Bill, to the 20th Line of
the 14th Skin; and insist upon the rest of their Amendment, leaving out the Proviso marked B, concerning the
Discharge of Goods by Two Justices of the Peace.
The Amendment concerning Corn. Agreed to stand
as in the Bill.
The Clause concerning Coals was debated, and the
Reasons of the House of Commons read.
And the Question being put, "Whether to agree
with the House of Commons in the Clause
It was Resolved in the Negative.
The Amendment changing May into June. The Lords
insist upon it.
That Part of the Bill concerning Brandy. The Lords
insist to leave it out.
The Committee are to prepare Reasons for these
Alterations, and offer them to this House.
Dominus Custos Magni Sigilli declaravit præsens Parliamentum continuandum esse usque in diem Jovis, 20um
diem instantis Aprilis, hora nona Aurora, Dominis sic