House of Lords Journal Volume 12
22 April 1671

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1767-1830

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'House of Lords Journal Volume 12: 22 April 1671', Journal of the House of Lords: volume 12: 1666-1675 (1767-1830), pp. 509-516. URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=12802 Date accessed: 16 September 2014.


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DIE Sabbati, 22 die Aprilis.

REX.

Domini tam Spirituales quam Temporales præsentes fuerunt:

His Royal Highness the Duke of Yorke.
Arch. Cant.
Arch. Eborac.
Epus. London.
Epus. Winton.
Epus. Ely.
Epus. Sarum.
Epus. Petriburgh.
Epus. Carlile.
Epus. Oxon.
Epus. Lyncolne.
Epus. Chester.
Epus. St. Asaph.
Sir Orlando Bridgman, Miles et Bar. Ds. Custos Magni Sigilli.
Dux Bucks.
Dux Monmouth.
Marq. Worcester.
Marq. Dorchester.
Robertus Comes Lyndsey, Magnus Camerarius Angliæ.
Jacobus Comes Brecon, Senescallus Hospitii Domini Regis.
Edwardus Comes Manchester, Camerarius Hospitii Domini Regis.
Comes Oxon.
Comes Kent.
Comes Derby.
Comes Bedford.
Comes Dorsett.
Comes Bridgwater.
Comes North'ton.
Comes Clare.
Comes Berks.
Comes Dover.
Comes Chesterfeild.
Comes Strafford.
Comes St. Albans.
Comes Sandwich.
Comes Essex.
Comes Cardigan.
Comes Anglesey.
Comes Carlile.
Comes Craven.
Comes Aylisbury.
Comes Burlington.
Vicecomes Mountagu.
Vicecomes de Stafford.
Vicecomes Fauconberg.
Vicecomes Hallyfax.
Ds. Arlington, One of the Principal Secretaries of State.
Ds. Awdley.
Ds. Berkeley.
Ds. Eure.
Ds. Wharton.
Ds. Willoughby.
Ds. Chandos.
Ds. Petre.
Ds. Grey.
Ds. Lovelace.
Ds. Howard de Esc.
Ds. Mohun.
Ds. Powis.
Ds. Newport.
Ds. Hatton.
Ds. Widdrington.
Ds. Ward.
Ds. Colepeper.
Ds. Lucas.
Ds. Bellasis.
Ds. Gerrard.
Ds. Holles.
Ds. Delamer.
Ds. Townsend.
Ds. Ashley.
Ds. Freschevile.
Ds. Butler.
Ds. Howard de Castle Rysing.

PRAYERS.

King's Answer to the Address for encouraging English Manufactures.

The Lord Keeper reported His Majesty's gracious Answer to the humble Address of both Houses of Parliament, presented to His Majesty this Morning, concerning the wearing of English Manufactures, and discountenancing the wearing of Foreign Manufactures, to this Effect:

"That He had in His own Person as little used Foreign Manufactures as any; and that He would comply with their Desires, and would speak to the Queen and the Women in Court, not to use them; and that He would discountenance those that should."

Thanks to His Majesty.

ORDERED, That the Lord Steward of His Majesty's Household, the Lord Chamberlain of His Majesty's Household, the Earl of Bedford, Earl of Bridgwater, Earl of Berks, Earl of Peterborough, the Lord Bishop of Oxon, and the Lord Howard of Castle Rysing, do wait on His Majesty, to present the humble Thanks of this House, for His Majesty's gracious Answer to the Address presented this Day by both Houses of Parliament, for His Majesty's Encouragement of the constant Wearing of the Manufactures of this Kingdom.

Bill to prevent the Exportation of Wool

The Earl of Anglesey reported, "That the Committee, taking into their Consideration the Bill against transporting Wool, have made some Amendments therein, which they offer to the Consideration of the House."

The said Amendments were read Twice, and Agreed to.

Hodie 3a vice lecta est Billa, "An additional Act for the better preventing the Exportation of Wool."

The Question being put, "Whether this Bill, with the Amendments, shall pass?"

It was Resolved in the Affirmative.

Message to H. C. with it.

A Message was sent to the House of Commons, by Sir John Coell and Sir William Beversham:

To return the Bill against the Exportation of Wool, wherein their Lordships have made some Amendments; and desire their Concurrence thereunto.

Message from thence, with the Tobacco Bill; and the indigent Officers Bill.

A Message was brought from the House of Commons, by Sir John Bennet, &c.; who returned Two Bills:

One concerning Tobacco, sent down with Amendments; to which the Commons do agree.

Also the Bill concerning the loyal indigent Officers; wherein the Commons have made some Amendments to their Lordships Amendments, and desire their Lordships Concurrence thereunto.

The said Amendments were read Twice, and Agreed to; and then read the Third Time.

The Earl of Derby and the Lord Mohun are added to the Committee for the Journal Book.

Proceedings on Bills of Midd. Latitats, &c.

This Day being appointed to hear Counsel upon the Matter reported from the Lords Committees appointed to consider of the Manner of Proceedings in the Courts in Westm. Hall, upon Bills of Midd. Latitats, and Ac Etiams, &c.; and the House wanting Time in this Session to conclude and judge that whole Matter:

The Lords Spiritual and Temporal in Parliament assembled do order, That the Lord Keeper of the Great Seal of England for the Time being (upon Complaint made by any particular Person or Persons, and Desire of a Supersedeas upon the Writs having the Clause of Ac Etiam in them, commonly called Ac Etiam Writs, and the Execution thereof) is hereby authorized, and shall grant Supersedeas upon such Complaint, as the respective Cases shall require.

Message from H. C. for a Conference on the Bill to prevent Exportation of Wool.

A Message was brought from the House of Commons, by the Lord St. Johns and others:

To desire a Conference, concerning their Lordships Amendments in the Bill against exporting of Wool.

The Answer was:

Answer.

That the Lords have considered their Message, and will send an Answer by Messengers of their own.

Message from thence, for a Conference on the Bill for additional Impositions, Money Bills, &c.

A Message was brought from the House of Commons, by Sir Robert Carr, &c.:

To desire a Conference, upon the Matter delivered in Writing at the Conference on Thursday last.

The Answer returned was:

Answer.

That their Lordships do agree to the Conference, as is desired; and appoint the same to be presently, in the Painted Chamber.

The same Lords as were appointed Managers for this Business are to report this Conference.

The House was adjourned during Pleasure, and the Lords went to the Conference; which being ended, the House was resumed.

Report of the Conference on the Bill for an additional Imposition on Foreign Commodities, and about the Lords making Amendments in Money Bills.

Then the Earl of Anglesey began the Report of this Conference; who said, "That Mr. Attorney told them, That, because the Matter is of Moment, the House of Commons have trusted none to give their Words but themselves; therefore have ordered it to be in Writing, as followeth:

"The Commons have desired this Conference, to preserve a good Correspondence with the House of Peers, and to prevent the ill Consequences of those Misunderstandings which may possibly interrupt the happy Conclusion of this Session, and of all future Parliaments too, if they be not very speedily removed: Wherein the Commons are not without Hopes of giving your Lordships full Satisfaction in the Point in Question, and that without shaking any Foundations, unless it be such as no Man should lay, much less build upon, the Foundations of a perpetual Dissention between the Two Houses.

"Three Things did surprize the Commons at the former Conference concerning the Bill for an additional Imposition on several Foreign Commodities:

"First, That where they expected a Discourse upon some Amendments to that Bill, they met with nothing but a Debate of the Liberties of their House, in the Matter, Measure, and Time, of Rates upon Merchandize, with a Kind of a Demand, that these Liberties might be delivered up to your Lordships by our public Acknowledgement before there should be any further Discourse upon that Bill.

"Secondly, That your Lordships should declare so fixed and settled a Resolution in this Point, before you had so much as heard what could be replied in Defence of the Commons.

"Thirdly and lastly, That your Lordships should be so easily induced to take this Resolution, if there be no other Motives for it than those Precedents and Reasons which your Lordships have been pleased to impart to us.

"The Commons confess, that the best Rule for deciding Questions of Right between the Two Houses, is the Law, and Usage of Parliament; and that the best Evidences of that Usage and Custom of Parliament are, the most frequent and authentic Precedents: Therefore the Commons will first examine the Precedents your Lordships seem to rely upon; then they will produce those by which their Right is asserted; and in the last Place, they will consider the Reasons upon which your Lordships ground yourselves.

"By the Nature of the Precedents which your Lordships produce, there is an evident Departure from the Question as the former Conference left it. There the Doubt was narrowed to this single Point, Whether your Lordships could retrench or abate any Part of the Rates which the Commons had granted upon Merchandize? Here the Precedents do go to a joint Power of imposing and beginning of Taxes, which is a Point we have not yet heard your Lordships to pretend to, though this present Difference prepares Way for it: Therefore either these Precedents prove too much, by proving a Power of imposing; or they prove nothing at all, by not proving a Power of lessening. And yet they do not prove a Power of imposing neither; for those Words ["the Lords and Commons grant"] must either be understood reddendo singula, singulis; that is, The Lords grant for themselves, and the Commons grant for the Counties, Cities, and Boroughs, whom they represent; or else the Word ["grant"] must be understood only of the Lords Assent to what the Commons grant, because the Form of Law requires, that both join in One Bill to give it the Force of a Law.

"This answers the Statute of Magna Charta, Cap. 37, and those few Instances wherein it is said, "The Lords and Commons grant;" videlicet, the 47 E. III. N. 10, 4R. II. N. 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 6R. II. N. 14. But what Answer can be given to those ancient and modern Precedents and Acts, where the Grant moves, and is acknowledged to come from the Commons alone; of which a Multitude shall be herein after mentioned?

"The Case of the 14 E. III. N. 5, Apres grand Trete et Parlance entre lez Grantz et Chevaliers et Communs, fuit assentus, &c. is no Grant of the 9th Sheaf, as your Lordships cited it to be; but an Agreement that the Nones granted in a former Parliament should now be sold, because the Money came not in fast enough.

"22 E. III. N. 3, which your Lordships cite to prove that the King did sometimes command the Lords to consult with the Commons about raising Money, proves little of that; but it proves expressly, that the Commons granted Three Fifteenths; and as the Grant runs wholly in their Name, so the Record is full of many Reasons why they could grant no more, and upon what Conditions they granted so much.

"And yet all these Records, wherein the Lords advised with the Commons about raising Money, though they seem to make a Shew in your Lordships Paper, yet they prove Two Things of great Importance to the Commons:

"First, That all Aids must begin with the Commons; else the Lords needed not to have conferred about the Aids, but might have sent down a Bill.

"Secondly, That when they are begun, the Lords can neither add nor diminish; else it was in vain to adjust the Matter by private Conference beforehand, if the Lords could have reformed it afterwards; which shews how little Service the Records of 29 E. III. N. 11, 51 E. III. N. 18, can do your Lordships in the present Question.

"From the Time of R. II. your Lordships come to 7° Jacobi, to tell us of the Treaty between the Lords and Commons touching the Contract for Tenures in Capite, wherein, the Lords and Commons being to be Purchasers, it was less subject to Objection, to confer both of the Method and Manner how the Price agreed might be paid for the Satisfaction of the King: But this Matter hath so little Affinity with the present Question of lessening Rates upon Merchandizes, given by the Commons, that nothing but a Scarcity of Precedents could ever have persuaded your Lordships to make Use of this Instance.

"As for the Precedent of 3 E. I. cited by your Lordships, the Commons have most Reason to rely upon that Case.

"Your Lordships say, in the Beginning of Impositions, when 40 s. upon a Sack of Wool was granted to E. I. and His Heirs, the Lords joined in the Grant; for the Words are, Magnates, Prelati, & tota Communitas concesserunt, wherein there are these Mistakes: First, That Record was not a Grant of 40 s. upon the Sack of Wool, as your Lordships suppose, but a Reducing of 40 s. upon a Sack, which E. I. took before Magna Charta was confirmed, to Half a Mark, videlicet, 6 s. per Sack; and it was at the Prayer of the Commons, as some Books say, and cite for it 3 E. I. M. 24. Secondly, The Record which your Lordships cite is Twice printed, Once in the 2d Part of the Institutes, Page 531, and again in the 4th Part of the Institutes, Page 29; and by both those Places it is evident that the concesserunt is to be applied only to the tota Communitas, and not to the Magnates; for this was a Grant of the Commons only, and not a Grant of the Lords; and, to demonstrate this beyond all Possibility of Scruple, the printed Books do refer us to the Statute of 25 E. I. C. 7, called Confirmationes Chartarum, wherein it is expressly so declared by Act of Parliament; for, by the last Statute, it appears that the Maletot of 40 s. upon a Sack was again demanded by E. I. and was therefore now abrogated, saving to the King and His Heirs the Demy-mark upon a Sack of Wool granted by the Commonalty, which is the very same Grant of 3 E. I. cited by your Lordships in the present Question; but this is also a convincing Evidence that those Words ["The Lords and Commons grant"] are Words of Form, and made Use of in such Cases where the Grant did certainly proceed from the Commons alone. And to clear this Point yet more fully by a modern Precedent, we pray your Lordships to take Notice of the Statute of the 2d and 3d of Ed. VI. Cap. 36, where a Relief is given to the King by Parliament; and the Title of the Act, as also in the Body of it, it is still called all along "The Grant of the Lords and Commons;" yet in 3° & 4° Ed. VI. Cap. 23, this former Act is recited, and there it is acknowledged to be only a Grant of the Commons.

"And as for the Case of 9° H. IV. called "The Indemnity of the Lords and Commons," these Things are evidently proved by it: First, That it was a Grievance to the Commons, and a Breach of their Liberties, for the Lords to demand a Committee to confer with about Aids. 2. That the Lords ought to consider by themselves apart. 3. That no Report should be made to the King of what the Commons have granted, and the Lords assented to, till the Matter be perfected; To that a plain Declaration is made, that the Commons grant, and the Lords assent. 4. That the Gift ought to be presented by the Speaker of the Commons.

"The Book Case of 33 H. VI. 17, is the weakest of all; for the Words are, Si les Comm'es grant Tonage p' 4 Ann. & S'n'rs grant mes pur deux Anns, ceo ne sera reliver aux Commoners; mes via versâ, si Co'ones grant p' 2 Ans et S'n'rs p' 4, ceo sera reliver.

Now, First, This was no Opinion of any Judge, but only of Kirkby, Cl. de Parliament. 2. This was a Case put by the Bye, and not pertinent to the Matter in Hand. 3. 'Tis impossible to be Law, being against the constant Practice and Usage of Parliament; for then your Lordships may not only lessen the Rates and Time, but you may choose whether you will send us the Bill or no back again, with Amendment, which was never heard of; and if that may be, why was it not done so now? 4. That Clerk says, your Lordships may increase Impositions too, which Part of the Case you thought not fit to cite, because you pretend not to it. 5. Brooke, Parliament. 7, puts a Query upon the Case, as it deserved. But if the Law Books are to be heard in this Matter, 30 H. VIII. Dyer 43, is a Judicial Authority, where Subsidy is defined to be, a Tax, assess par Parliament, et grant al Roy par les Co'ones durant Vyde chesc. Roy, tantum pour le Defence des Merchants sur le Mere.

"The Provisos in the Bill of 1° H. VIII. which your Lordships seem mainly to rely upon, we conceive to be of no Force at all, unless it be against your Lordships; for, by your Lordships Journals, the Case was this : The Bill itself did not pass till the 3d of Hen. VIII.; and upon the 43 Day of the Parliament, the Lords assented to it. Afterwards, upon the 45 Day, Two Provisos came in touching the Merchants of The Hans Townes, another touching the Merchants of the Staple of Calais; both were signed by the King; and the Chancellor and Bishop of Winchester did declare that the Signing of those Provisos by the King's own Hand was enough, without the Consent of either House; so that the Addition of those Provisos prove nothing for which your Lordships cited them; because, 1. They were signed by the King: 2. They were brought in, against all Course of Parliament, after the Bill passed: 3. The Provisos were nothing but a Saving of former Rights, usually considered in former Acts of that Nature: 4. Your Lordships Journal declares, that the King, without these Provisos, might have done the same Thing by His Prerogative.

"Only this may be fit to be observed by the Way, That as the Bill was a Grant of the Commons alone, so the Thanks for that Bill was given to the Commons alone; and so appears upon the Indorsement of that Record.

"The Precedents for the Commons, which on the sudden we find, for we have had but few Hours to search, are all these following:

"11 E. I. Walsingham 471, Populus dedit Regi Tricesimam Partem Bonorum.

"25 E. I. Walsingham 486, Populus dedit Regi Denarium Novum.

"7 H. IV. Walsingham 566, Postquam Milites Parliamentares diu distulissent, concedere Regi Subsidium in Fine tamen fracti concessere.

"6 H. IV. Walsingham 564, Subsidium denegatum fuit Proceribus remittentibus. So hitherto, when granted, the Commons give it; when denied, the whole Bill rejected, never abated.

"1 E. III. Stat. 2, Cap. 6, The Commons grieved, that when they granted an Aid, and paid it, the Taxes were reviewed.

"18 E. III. Cap. 1, Stat. at large, The Commons grant Two Fifteenths; the Great Men grant nothing, but to go in Person with the King.

"36 E. III. Cap. II, The King, having Regard to the Grant made by the Commons for Three Years of Wool and Leather, grants that no Aid be levied, but by Consent of Parliament.

"21 R. II. N. 75, is the First Grant of Tonnage and Poundage for Life; and it was given by the Commons alone.

"2 H. VI. N. 14, The Commons grant Tonnage and Poundage for Two Years.

"31 H. VI. N. 7, 8, 9, 10, The Commons grant Tonnage, &c. for Life.

"8 E. IV. N°. 30, The Commons grant Two Tenths and Two Fifteenths.

"12 E. IV. C. 3, The Grant for Tonnage and Poundage for Life is recited to be by the Commons, and most of the Rates mentioned in the Bill.

"The Wars of Yorke and Lancaster are so far from weakening these Precedents, it strengthens them rather; for no Man can think the Lords were then in less Power, or less careful of their Rights, than your Lordships are now; wherefore, if in those Days those Forms were approved by those mighty Men, it is a Sign the Right is clear.

"1 H. VIII. The Commons, by Assent of the Lords, grant Tonnage.

"15 H. VII. In Ireland was the First Grant of Tonnage and Poundage; but it is said, at the Prayer of the Commons it is enacted; which, in a Kingdom where they are not tied to Forms, shews the clear Right.

1 E. VI. Cap. 13, "We Your poor Commons
by Advice, &c. grant:" And
also avers the Right, Time
out of Mind, to be in the
Commons in like Manner.
1 M. Cap. 8,
1 Eliz. Cap. 19,

Wednesday, Feb. 15, This Statute of the 1st of Eliz. Cap. 19, gives us Occasion to put your Lordships in Mind of another Precedent which appears in your own Journals; for, while this Bill was passing, the Inhabitants of Cheshire and Wales petition the Lords, upon the Second Reading, That forasmuch as they were subject to pay the Queen a certain Duty called Mises, that therefore they might be excused of the Subsidy, and abated their Parts of it.

"The Lords, who then knew they had no Power to diminish any Part of the Aid granted by the Commons, did therefore address themselves to the Queen in their Behalfs.

"The Queen commands an Entry to be made in the Journal of the House of Lords, That She was pleased that the Cheshire Men and the Welch Men should be respited the Mises when they pay Subsides, and respited the Subsidies when they pay Mises; which is a strong Proof, that as the Commons alone grant, so nobody can diminish their Grant; else what Need had the Lords to apply themselves to the Queen for it?

"17 Car. I. Tonnage and Poundage was granted Once for a Month, then again for Three Months; but still the Grant was by the Commons: In those Days, how tumultuous soever, the Commons did not rise against the Lords; they agreed well enough.

"And the Preamble of this very Bill now in Question.

"All Grants of the Commons; yet none of these Bills were ever varied by your Lordships or your Predecessors; which, if there had been such a Right, would some Time or other have been exercised, though in very small Values, purposely to preserve that Right.

Thus an uninterrupted Possession of this Privilege ever since 9° H. IV. confirmed by a Multitude of Precedents both before and after, not shaken by One Precedent for these Three Hundred Years, is now required to be delivered up, or an End put to all further Discourse; which Opinion, if it be adhered to, is, as much as in your Lordships lies, to put an End to all further Transactions between the Houses in Matter of Money, which we pray your Lordships to consider.

"The Reasons offered by the House of Commons were these:

"Because it appears not to the Commons, any Colour from the Precedents cited by your Lordships, why your Opinions should be so fixed in this Point. We suppose the main Defence is in the Reasons have been given for it.

"That Paper begins with an Observation, "That your Lordships have neither Reason nor Precedent offered by the Commons to back their Resolution;" and yet concludes with an Answer to a Precedent then cited by the House of Commons, videlicet, the Act of Tonnage and Poundage now in Force.

"And if your Lordships heard but One Precedent then, you have now a great Number, besides those of 3 Ed. I. and 1 H. VIII. and 9 H. IV. and divers others your Lordships furnished us with.

"Before the Commons answer to your Lordships Reasons in particular, they desire to say, First, in general, That it is a very unsafe Thing, in any settled Government, to argue the Reasons of the fundamental Constitutions; for that can tend to nothing that is profitable for the Whole.

"And this will more sensibly appear to your Lordships, if the Grounds and Foundations of Judicature be examined; for there are several Precedents in Parliament, and some in Book Cases, which prove that the Judicature is not to be exercised by all the Lords, but only such as the King is pleased to appoint. So is the Book Case of 22 E. III. 3. a. b. and so is the Parliament Roll, 25 E. III. N. 4.

Several other Precedents, where the Commons by the King's good Pleasure have been let into a Share of the very Judicature, are 42 E. III. N. 20, 21. 31 H. VI. N. 10, 8 E. IV. Hugh Brice's C. in the Rolls of Parliament.

"Some Precedents there are, where it was assigned for Error in the House of Peers, "That the Lords gave Judgement without Petition or Assent of the Commons." So is the 2 H. V. N. 13.

"Would your Lordships think it safe, that a Dispute should now be made of the very Rights of Judicature, because we have such Precedents?

If Usage for so long a Time have silenced all Disputes touching your Lordships Judicature, shall that Usage be of no Force to preserve the Privileges of the Commons from all further Question?

"Also, there is a Precedent of an Act of Parliament passed by the King and Commons alone, without the Lords, videlicet, 1 E. VI. C. 5, and that Twice approved, videlicet, 1 Eliz. C. 7, and 5 Eliz. C. 19, which both allow and commend this Act.

Shall we therefore argue the Foundations of the Legislature, because we have such Precedents?

"But to come to Particulars:

"Your Lordships First Reason is, from the Happiness of the Constitution, That the Two Houses are mutual Checks upon each other.

"Answer. So they are still; for your Lordships have a Negative to the Whole. But, on the other Side, it would be a Double Check upon His Majesty's Affairs, if the King may not rely upon the Quantum, when once His People have given it; therefore the Privilege now contended for by your Lordships is not of Use to the Crown, but much the contrary.

"2. Your Lordships Reason, drawn from the Writ of Summons, is as little concluding; for, though the Writ do not exclude you from any Affairs, yet it is only de quibusdam arduis Negotiis, and must be understood of such as by Course of Parliament are proper, else the Commons upon the like Ground may entitle themselves to Judicature; for they are also called to treat de quibusdam arduis.

"3. Your Lordships proceed to demand, "Where is that Record or Contract in Parliament to be found, where the Lords appropriate this Right to the Commons in Exclusion of themselves?"

"Answer. To this Rhetorical Question the Commons pray they may answer by another Question; "Where is that Record or Contract, by which the Commons submitted that Judicature should be appropriated to the Lords in Exclusion of themselves?"

"Wherever your Lordships find the last Record, they will shew the First endorsed upon the Back of the same Roll.

"Truth is, Precedents there are where both Sides do exercise these several Rights, but none how either Side came by them.

"4. If the Lords may deny the Whole, why not a Part? Else the Commons may at last pretend against the Lords Negative Voice.

"Answer. The King must deny the Whole of every Bill, or pass it; yet this takes not away His Negative Voice: The Lords and Commons must accept the whole General Pardon, or deny it; yet this takes not away their Negative.

"The Clergy have a Right to tax themselves, and 'tis a Part of the Privilege of their Estate: Doth the Upper Convocation House alter what the Lower grant? or do the Lords or Commons ever abate any Part of their Gift? Yet they have a Power to reject the Whole. But, if Abatement should be made, it would insensibly go to a Raising, and deprive the Clergy of their ancient Right to tax themselves.

"5. Your Lordships say, "Judicature is undoubtedly ours; yet in Bills of Judicature we allow the Commons to amend and alter: Why should not the Commons allow to us the same Privilege in Bills of Money?"

"Answer. If Contracts were now to be made for Privileges, the Offer might seem fair: But yet the Commons should profit little by it; for your Lordships do now industriously avoid all Bills of that Nature, and choose to do many Things by your own Power, which ought to be done by the Legislative; of which we forbear the Instances, because your Lordships, we hope, will reform them; and we desire not to create new Differences, but to compose the old.

"6. Your Lordships say, You are put to an ignoble Choice, either to refuse the King's Supplies when they are most necessary, or to consent to such Ways and Proportions which neither your own Judgement nor Good of the Government or People can admit.

"Answer. We pray your Lordships to observe, That this Reason, First, makes your Lordships Judgement to be the Measure of the Welfare of the Commons of England. 2. It gives you Power to raise and increase Taxes, as well as to abate, for it may some, times, in your Lordships Judgements, be for Interest of Trade to raise and increase a Rate; and then still you are brought to the same ignoble Choice, unless you may raise the Tax.

"But it is a very ignoble Choice put upon the King and His People, That either His Majesty must demand, and the Commons give, so small an Aid as can never be diminished, or else run the Hazard of your Lordships Re-examination of the Rates, whose Proportions in all Taxes, in Comparison to what the Commonalty pay, is very inconsiderable.

"7. If positive Assertions can introduce Right, the Lords have no Security; but the Commons may extend their Rights, as they judge it necessary or expedient.

"Answer. We hope no Assertions or Denials, though never so positive, shall give or take away a Right; but we rely upon Usage of our Side, and Non-usage on your Lordships Part, as the best Evidences by which your Lordships or we can claim any Privilege.

"8. Your Lordships prosess a Desire to raise our Esteem with His Majesty and the whole Kingdom, but not by the Under-valuation of the House of Peers.

"Answer. We have great Confidence in His Majesty's Goodness, that nothing can lessen His Esteem of our dutiful Affections to Him; and we hope we have deserved so well of our Country, by our Deportment towards His Majesty, that we shall not need your Lordships Recommendations to any who wish well to His Majesty or the present Government. But we are so far from wishing to raise an Esteem by any Diminution of your Lordships Honour or Privileges, that there never was any House of Commons who had a more just and true Respect of that noble Constitution of a House of Peers; of which your Lordships have had frequent Instances, by our consenting to several Clauses in Bills for securing and improving your Lordships Privileges.

"We are sorry to see your Lordships under-value the Procedent of this last Act of Tonnage and Poundage; because, though it were an Act of the last Convention, 'twas confirmed in this.

"And because the Right of the Commons there asserted was pursuant to a former Precedent in 1642, and possibly had not passed so, if the younger Members of that Convention had not learned from some of these great and noble Lords who now manage the Conference for your Lordships, and were then Commoners, that this was the undoubted Right of the Commons.

"To conclude: The Commons have examined themselves and their Proceedings, and find no Cause why your Lordships should put them in Mind of that Modesty by which their Ancestors shewed a great Deference to the Wisdom of the Lords; for they resolve ever to observe the Modesty of their Ancestors, and doubt not but your Lordships will also follow the Wisdom of yours."

Lords Resolution upon this Report.

Resolved, by the Lords Spiritual and Temporal in Parliament assembled, nemine contradicente, upon serious Debate and Consideration, That this House is not satisfied with the Reasons and Precedents given by the House of Commons at the last Conference; and do much dislike the unusual Expressions of the Commons, in what they delivered at the Conference.

Committee to prepare Reasons for strengthening the Lords Resolutions on this Subject.

ORDERED, That the Lords who were the Reporters of the last Conference are to meet this Afternoon, to consider of further Reasons and Precedents to fortify the Votes of this House in this Matter, and prepare Answers to the Reasons and Precedents offered by the House of Commons; and what else by their Lordships shall be thought fit to offer as Heads and Grounds for a Free Conference with the House of Commons, concerning the Subject-matter of the said Conference.

Message to H. C. for the Conference on the Bill against exporting Wool; and about the indigent Officers Bill.

A Message was sent to the House of Commons, by Sir John Coell and Sir William Beversham:

That the Lords will give a Conference, as is desired, upon the Bill against exporting of Wool, and appoint it to be at Four of the Clock this Afternoon, in the Painted Chamber: Also to let them know, the Lords have agreed to the Amendments made by the Commons to the Proviso marked (B), added by the Lords to the Bill for Sixty Thousand Pounds to loyal and indigent Officers.

Adjourn.

Dominus Custos Magni Sigilli declaravit præsens Parliamentum continuandum esse usque in post meridiem hujus instantis diei, hora quarta, Dominis sic decernentibus.

Hitherto examined by us,

Derby.
J. Bridgewater.
Northampton.
Dover.
Anglesey.
Craven.
Stafford.
Edw. Carliol.
Geo. Eure.
Holles.

Post meridiem.

REX.

Domini tam Spirituales quam Temporales præsentes fuerunt:

His Royal Highness the Duke of Yorke.
Arch. Cant.
Arch. Eborac.
Epus. London.
Epus. Winton.
Epus. Ely.
Epus. Sarum.
Epus. Petriburgh.
Epus. Carlile.
Epus. Oxon.
Epus. Lyncolne.
Epus. Chester.
Sir Orlando Bridgman, Mil. et Bar.
Dux Bucks.
Dux Monmouth.
Marq. Worcester.
Robertus Comes Lyndsey, Magnus Camerarius Angliæ.
Jacobus Comes Brecon, Senescallus Hospitii Domini Regis.
Edwardus Comes Manchester, Camerarius Hospitii Domini Regis.
Comes Oxon.
Comes Kent.
Comes Derby.
Comes Bedford.
Comes Dorsett.
Comes Bridgwater.
Comes North'ton.
Comes Clare.
Comes Dover.
Comes Petriburgh.
Comes Chesterfeild.
Comes Strafford.
Comes St. Albans.
Comes Sandwich.
Comes Essex.
Comes Cardigan.
Comes Anglesey.
Comes Carlile.
Comes Craven.
Comes Aylisbury.
Comes Burlington.
Vicecomes Mountagu.
Vicecomes de Stafford.
Vicecomes Fauconberg.
Vicecomes Hallyfax.
Ds. Arlington, One of the Principal Secretaries of State.
Ds. Awdley.
Ds. Berkeley de Berkeley.
Ds. Eure.
Ds. Willoughby.
Ds. Chandos.
Ds. Petre.
Ds. Grey.
Ds. Lovelace.
Ds. Mohun.
Ds. Powis.
Ds. Newport.
Ds. Hatton.
Ds. Ward.
Ds. Colepeper.
Ds. Lucas.
Ds. Bellasis.
Ds. Gerrard.
Ds. Crofts.
Ds. Holles.
Ds. Delamer.
Ds. Townsend.
Ds. Ashley.
Ds. Freschevile.
Ds. Butler.
Ds. Howard de Castle Rysing.

PRAYERS.

Message from H.C. to return the Seamen and Navy Stores Bill.

A Message was brought from the House of Commons, by Sir Charles Harboard and others:

To return the Bill concerning the Prevention of Disturbances of Seamen, to which they have agreed with some Amendments.

The said Amendments were read Twice, and Agreed to, and then read the Third Time; and the Bill was Agreed to with these Amendments.

Message to them, that the Lords agree to it.

A Message was sent to the House of Commons, by Sir John Coell and Sir William Beversham:

To let them know, that this House agrees to the Amendments and Proviso made in the Bill for preventing the Disturbances of Seamen.

Lords Committees Report concerning the Conference about the Bill of Impositions, that they had not Time to prepare Reasons.

The Lords Committees who were this Morning appointed to prepare Answers to the Reasons and Precedents offered by the House of Commons at the Conference in the Morning reported, "That they have made some Entrance into the Business; but, finding the King was come to prorogue the Parliament, they could make no further Progress in that Business."

The House of Commons being ready for the Conference about the Bill concerning Wool; the Earl of Essex, Earl of Anglesey, Earl of Carlile, Bishop of Sarum, and the Lord Ashley, were appointed to report this Conference.

The House was adjourned during Pleasure, and the Lords went to the Conference; which being ended, the House was resumed.

Report of the Conference concerning the Bill against exporting Wool.

Then the Lord Ashley reported the Effect of this Conference concerning the Bill against exporting of Wool, wherein their Lordships have made some Amendments for leaving out Ireland; "to which, the House of Commons say, they cannot agree, because it cannot stand with the Good of this Kingdom:

"1. Because there is more Wool exported out of Ireland than out of England; and if this were made into Cloth, it would increase Navigation.

"2. Former Laws included Ireland.

"3. The Laws of Ireland for Felony concerning this Offence have not been put in due Execution, because Informers have wanted Encouragement.

"4. The greatest Frauds in this Kind have been in Ireland:

"1. In using Double Names in Entries.

"2. In taking insolvent Security.

"3. In using Fraud in Certificates."

Memorandum, That the Lords proceeded no further in Consideration of this Bill for Want of Time; the King being come to prorogue this Session of Parliament.

King present.

His Majesty sitting in His Royal Throne, adorned with His Regal Crown and Robes (the Peers sitting in their Robes), the Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod was commanded by His Majesty to let the House of Commons know, "That it was His Majesty's Pleasure that they presently attend His Majesty."

The Commons being come, the Speaker spake to this Effect:

Speaker of H. C. Speech.

"That His Majesty was pleased in October last (when the Parliament then met), to acquaint them how His Revenue was clogged with Debts; and that the Commons, taking the same into Consideration, resolved to supply His Majesty accordingly; and that, on the 6th Day of March last, he presented His Majesty, from the House of Commons, with the Subsidy and Excise Bills; and now, by their Command, he presented His Majesty with the Bill for laying Impositions on Proceedings at Law: That he was commanded humbly to beseech His Majesty, that the Revenue thereof might be effectually applied to the Payment of His Debts: And that he had further in Command from them, to let His Majesty know, That they had enlarged the Time for the Impositions on Proceedings at Law to Nine Years, that thereby His Majesty might be the better enabled to satisfy His Debt owing to the Prince of Orange; he begged His Pardon, that he called it His Debt, it being contracted for Supplies afforded to His Royal Father and Himself in Their unhappy Necessities, and therefore not to be forgotten. He said, That Geographers write of some Islands called Insulæ Fortunatæ, whose Harvest is said to be in March and April; he hoped, that England might be accounted one of those Islands, having afforded His Majesty such a Crop in March last and this April, which he humbly besought His Majesty to accept as a Pledge of their dutiful Affection to Him."

Bills passed.

After this, these Public and Private Bills following received the Royal Assent:

"An Act for laying Impositions on Proceedings at Law."

To which the Clerk of the Parliaments pronounced the Royal Assent in these Words,

"Le Roy, remerciant Ses bons Subjects, accepte leur Benevolence, et ainsi le veult."

"An Act for the better and more certain Recovery of Fines and Forfeitures due to His Majesty."

"An Act for vesting certain Fee-farm Rents and other small Rents in Trustees."

"An Act to prevent the Delivery-up of Merchants Ships, and for the Increase of good and serviceable Shipping."

"An Act to revive an Act, intituled, An Act to prevent the Disturbances of Seamen and others, and to preserve the Stores belonging to His Majesty's Navy Royal, with some Alterations and Additions."

"An Act for Exportation of Beer, Ale, and Mum."

"An Act for the better settling of Intestates Estates."

"An Act for the better Settlement of the Maintenance of the Parsons, Vicars, and Curates, in the Parishes of the City of London burnt by the late dreadful Fire there."

"An Act for the better paving and cleansing the Streets and Sewers in and about the City of London."

"An Act for the Discovery of such as have defrauded the Poor of the City of London of the Monies given for their Relief at the Times of the late Plague and Fire, and for Recovery of the Arrears thereof."

"An Act for the better regulating of Workhouses, for setting the Poor on Work."

"An Act for Determination of Differences touching Houses burnt or demolished within Four Years since the late dreadful Fire in London."

"An Act to prevent the planting of Tobacco in England, and for regulating the Plantation Trade."

"An additional Act for ascertaining the Measures of Corn and Salt."

"An Act to prevent Frauds in the buying and selling of Cattle in Smithfeild and elsewhere."

"An Act for the Relief and Release of poor distressed Prisoners for Debt."

"An Act for taking the Accompts of Threescore Thousand Pounds, and other Monies, given to the loyal and indigent Officers."

"An Act for the better Preservation of the Game, and for securing Warrens not enclosed, and the several Fishings of this Realm."

To these Bills severally the Royal Assent was pronounced, in these Words:

"Le Roy le veult."

Private Bills.

"An Act for vesting and settling the Fee Simple of certain Lands on His Majesty, His Heirs and Successors, which have been taken into, and spoiled by making New Fortifications about, the Town of Portsmouth.

"An Act for explaining a Proviso contained in an Act, intituled, An Act for settling the Profits of the Post-office; and Power of granting Wine Licenses, on his Royal Highness the Duke of Yorke, and the Heirs Males of his Body."

"An Act for building Arundell House, and Tenements thereunto belonging."

"An Act to enable Charles Howard Esquire and Mary his Wife to levy a Fine, and suffer a Recovery, of their Estate in the Manor of Darking."

"An Act to enable Sir Andrewe Hackett Knight to settle a Portion of Money on Mary Hackett his Daughter."

"An Act for settling the Manor of Shabbington, for Payment of the Debts of Sir William Clarke Baronet."

"An Act to enable Henry Booth Esquire to levy Fines, and suffer Recoveries."

"An Act to enable Trustees to sell the Manors, Lands, and Leases, of Sir Thomas Ogle Knight, deceased, for raising a Portion and present Maintenance for his Daughter and Heir, and Payment of his Debts."

"An Act for improving the Navigation between the Town of Boston and the River Trent."

"An Act for settling and preserving the Navigation of the River Wey, in the County of Surrey."

"An Act for uniting the Vicarage and Parsonage of Rosse, in the County of Hereford."

"An Act for making the Manor of Paris Garden a Parish, and to enable the Parishioners of St. Saviour's Southwarke to raise a Maintenance for Ministers, and for Repair of their Church."

"An Act for Sale of Part of the Estate of Thomas Herlackenden Esquire, for Satisfaction of a Debt due to His Majesty."

"An Act for settling Lands intended by John Sams for charitable Uses."

To these Bills severally the Royal Assent was pronounced in these Words,

"Soit fait come il est desiré."

Then His Majesty began His Speech with these Words:

King's Speech.

"My Lords and Gentlemen,

"I give you very hearty Thanks, for the Supply you have now given Me."

His Majesty also proceeded further to thank them for what they had further intended Him; and assured them, "That what they had given Him should be employed toward the Payment of His Debts, and His Expences for this Year : That it was now Time for them to go into their Countries; and He desired them to take Care that in the laying and collecting of the Subsidy they had given Him, it might be improved to what they intended." He said further, "That He intended the Parliament should be prorogued, not to meet again for almost a Year; but hoped that when they do meet, they would come again with the same Affections to His Service as formerly; and what He had further to say to them, they should understand by the Lord Keeper."

Then the Lord Keeper spake to this Effect:

May the 16th, 1671.

Hitherto examined by us,

Dorsett.
J. Bridgewater.
Dover.
Anglesey.
Craven.
Joh. Roffen.
Geo. Eure.
Holles.
My Lords and Gentlemen,

Lord Keeper's Speech.

His Majesty hath told you with how great Satisfaction He hath accepted your Supplies, as real Testimonies of the Constancy of your good Affections."

His Lordship further told them, "That many of them being Commissioners in the Country for the new Subsidy; His Majesty desired them to use their Endeavours to make it effectual, and suitable to their Intentions; and wished them to assure their Neighbours, That He would employ the Monies entirely towards the Payment of His Debts."

Parliament prorogued.

And then having declared His Majesty's Pleasure and Command, "That the Parliament be prorogued to the Sixteenth Day of April next," he did accordingly prorogue the Parliament to the Sixteenth Day of April next.