House of Lords Journal Volume 16: 10 April 1700

DIE Mercurii, 10 Aprilis.

Domini tam Spirituales quam Temporales præsentes fuerunt:

PRAYERS.

John Earl of Bridgewater sat Speaker.

Army and Navy, &c. Accompts, Bill for Commissioners to take, &c.

Hodie 1^a & 2^a vice lecta est Billa, intituled, "An Act for the appointing Commissioners to take, examine, and determine, the Debts due to the Army, Navy, and for Transport Service; and also an Account of the Prizes taken during the late War."

ORDERED, That the said Bill be committed to a Committee of the whole House, presently.

Then the House was adjourned during Pleasure, and put into a Committee thereupon.

After some Time, the House was resumed.

And the Lord Herbert reported, "That they had made some Progress in the Bill; and desire another Time may be appointed, for them to proceed therein."

ORDERED, That the House be put into a Committee again, on the said Bill, To-morrow, at Eleven of the Clock.

Land-tax in England, and forfeited Estates in Ireland, Bill, Lords Reasons for adhering to their Amendments to it.

The Lord President reported, from the Managers of the Conference, the Reasons drawn by them for their Lordships insisting on their Amendments to the Bill, intituled, "An Act for granting an Aid to His Majesty, by Sale of forfeited and other Estates and Interests in Ireland, and by a Land-tax in England, for the several Purposes therein mentioned."

Which were read, and agreed to, as followeth; (videlicet,)

"The Lords insist on their Amendments to the Bill for granting an Aid to His Majesty, by Sale of the forfeited and other Estates and Interests in Ireland, and by a Land-tax in England, for the several Purposes therein mentioned.

"1. Because the Reasons given by the Commons against their Lordships Amendments do no Ways relate to the Matter contained in the said Amendments.

"2. Because, though there be nothing in the said Amendments relating to Aids or Supplies granted to His Majesty in Parliament; yet the Commons have thought fit to take Occasion thereupon to assert a Claim to their sole and entire Right, not only the granting all Aids in Parliament, but that such Aids are to be raised by such Methods, and with such Provisions, as the Commons only think proper: If the said Assertions were exactly true (which their Lordships cannot allow), yet it could not with good Reason follow from thence, that the Lords may not alter or leave out, according to their Amendments, when the saving the Estates of innocent Persons, and of such as have been outlawed after their Death, makes such Amendments necessary.

"And the Lords think it unreasonable and unjust, to vest in the Trustees any greater or other Estate than was in the forfeiting Person, or than the King may legally have; since thereby not only many innocent Persons, who come in by Descent or Purchase, or other valuable Considerations, might suffer equally as Criminals; but 'tis possible that Men, who, with the utmost Hazard of their Lives, have been defending the Government, may forfeit as Traitors; and they cannot apprehend, that, by any Law of this Land, or by any Rule of Reason or Justice, any Person ought to be outlawed after his Death, since 'tis condemning a Man unheard, and allowing him no Opportunity of making his Innocence appear.

"The Lords admit the Resumption of the forfeited Estates in Ireland to be a Thing necessary, by reason of the great Debt due to the Army and others, which they earnestly desire to see discharged; and are therefore very willing and desirous to give their Consents to any reasonable Bill the Commons shall send them up to that Purpose: But the Lords can by no means consent, that the Commons shall take upon them to dispose of any of the said Forfeitures to any private Persons; it being the sole and undoubted Right of the Crown, to be the Distributor of all Bounties; and being contrary to all the Laws and Course of Parliaments to give Aids, Supplies, or Grants, to any but the King only; and as the contrary Practice is totally new and unprecedented, so, in Process of Time, it may become of the last ill Consequence to the Public.

"The Lords cannot agree to the Clauses that create an Incapacity in the Commissioners or Managers of the Excise for sitting in this Parliament, because the Qualification of Members to serve in Parliament is a Thing (if proper to be meddled with at all) that hath been thought fit by the Commons to be in a Bill by itself; and the joining together, in a Money Bill, Things so totally foreign to the Methods of raising Money, and to the Quantity or Qualification of the Sums to be raised, is wholly destructive of the Freedom of Debates, dangerous to the Privileges of the Lords, and to the Prerogative of the Crown; for by this Means Things of the last ill Consequence to the Nation may be brought into Money Bills, and yet neither the Lords nor the Crown be able to give their Negative to them, without hazarding the Public Peace and Security: And it seems a great Hardship to the Counties and Places who chose such Members, to deprive them of their Services, since they knew them to be Commissioners of Excise at the Time they chose them; and since the Commons admit them to be proper Persons to serve either in Excise or Parliament, though not at the same Time; so that there seems to be no other Reason of distinguishing these Commissioners but what is common to all other Officers of the Crown; and the Question, "Whether such an Alteration may be convenient," must needs be a Doubt with the Lords, since the Commons have not been able this very Session to satisfy themselves with the Bill, and the Considerations they have entertained upon that Subject.

"The Lords do seriously consider the Dangers and Inconveniencies that are likely to happen by the Loss of this Bill, and by the Difference betwixt the Two Houses; and are heartily sorry for them, and desirous to avoid them by all the Means they can, as does manifestly appear by their having complied, and overlooked the Irregularities of Bills of the like Nature; and, at the same Time, by entering in their Books, to be seen by every body, their just Sense of the Wrong, and their Resolutions of asserting that fundamental Right, of the Exercise of which there are many Precedents extant in their Books: But since they find that such their kind Intentions of maintaining a good Correspondence with the Commons has had no other Effect but to introduce greater Impositions upon them, and such as will certainly prove destructive of the ancient and excellent Constitution of our Government, since the Lords have no Objection to the Resumption, nor no Design to invade the least Right of the Commons, but only to defend their own, that they may transmit the Government and their own Rights and Privileges to their Posterity, in the same State and Condition that they were derived down to them from their Ancestors; they think themselves wholly discharged from being in the least accessary to any such Dangers or Inconveniencies; and conceive they are sufficiently justified, before God and Man, in withstanding such Innovations and Invasions upon our (fn. 1) and our Laws as must necessarily prove the Destruction of them."

Message to H. C. for a Conference about them.

A Message was sent to the House of Commons, by Sir Richard Holford and Mr. Meredith:

To desire a present Conference, in the Painted Chamber, upon the Subject-matter of the last Conference.

Answer.

The Messengers sent to the House of Commons return Answer:

That the Commons agree to a Conference, as desired.

ORDERED, That the same Managers do attend at the Conference as before.

Conference.

Then the Commons being come to the Conference; the House was adjourned during Pleasure, and the Lords went to the Conference.

Which being ended, the House was resumed.

And the Lord President reported, "That they had attended the Conference; and delivered the Bill, with their Lordships Reasons, to the Commons."

Books relative to Trade delivered to the Board of Trade.

Whereas there have been several Books sent to this House (as ordered) from the Commissioners of the Customs relating to Trade, which may be useful to the Commissioners of Trade:

It is ORDERED, by the Lords Spiritual and Temporal in Parliament assembled, That the Clerk of the Parliaments, or his Deputy, may deliver the said Books, or any of them, to the Commissioners of Trade, by a List; and that they be returned to the Clerk of the Parliaments before the next Sitting of the Parliament.

Message from H. C. for a Conference about the Lords Amendment to the Bill for a Land Tax, &c.

A Message was brought from the House of Commons, by Mr. Boyle and others:

To desire a Free Conference, upon the Subjectmatter of the last Two Conferences.

After Debate;

The Question was put, "Whether the Free Conference shall be appointed presently ?"

It was Resolved in the Affirmative.

Answer.

Then the Commons were called in; and told, "That the Lords agree to a Free Conference, as desired; and appoint it presently, in the Painted Chamber."

ORDERED, That the same Managers as before be Managers of this Free Conference.

Conference reported.

The Commons being come to the Free Conference; the House was adjourned during Pleasure, and the Lords went to the Free Conference.

Which being ended, the House was resumed.

And the Lord President reported, "That they had attended the Free Conference; and that the Commons had used no Reasons at the said Free Conference; but said, they had Orders to return the Bill, and leave it with the Lords."

Lords do not adhere to their Amendments.

It being moved, "To adhere to the Amendments made to the Bill:"

After Debate thereupon;

This Question was put, "Whether this House will adhere to their Amendments made to this Bill ?"

It was Resolved in the Negative.

Then the Question was put, "Whether this House will agree to the said Bill, without any Amendment ?"

It was Resolved in the Affirmative.

Protest against not adhering:

"We do dissent, for the Reasons given this Day to the Commons at a Conference:

"Dissentientibus,
Norfolke, E. M.
R. Ferrers.
Pembroke.
Richmond.
Lonsdale, C.P.S.
J. Bridgewater.
Raby.
Stamford.
Bolton.
Bergevenny.
Mohun.
Anglesey.
North & Grey.
Culpeper.
Herbert.
Audley.
Sandwich.
Say & Seale.
Haversham.
Southampton.
Howard."

Message to H. C. that the Lords agree to the Bill, without Amendments.

A Message was sent to the House of Commons, by Sir Richard Holford and Mr. Meredith:

To let them know, that the Lords have agreed to the said Bill, without any Amendments.

Adjourn.

Joh'es Comes Bridgewater, Orator Procerum, declaravit præsens Parliamentum continuandum esse usque ad et in diem Jovis, (videlicet,) undecimum diem instantis Aprilis, hora undecima Auroræ, Dominis sic decernentibus.