DIE Lunæ, 12 die Maii.
Domini tam Spirituales quam Temporales præsentes
L. Chief Justice of the Common Pleas, Speaker this Day.
Epus. Bath et Wells.
Epus. St. Asaph.
Epus. St. David's.
Epus. Cov. et Lich.
|Ds. Thesaurarius Angl.
Ds. Custos Privati Sigilli.
L. Great Chamberlain.
Comes St. Albans.
Viscount de Stafford.
Ds. Howard de Ch.
Ds. Howard de Esc.
Message from H. C. for a Conference about the Bill for Money for Officers who served the King.
A Message was brought from the House of Commons,
by the Lord Bruce and others:
To desire a Conference, concerning the Amendments
in the Bill for Distribution of Three Score Thousand
Pounds to the loyal Commissioned Officers.
The Answer returned was:
That this House will give a present Conference, in
the Painted Chamber.
Bill to prevent the Exportatation of Sheep, Wool, &c.
ORDERED, That the Committee for Wool and Woolfels do meet this Afternoon.
The Lord Treasurer, the Lord Privy Seal, the Earl
of Portland, and the Lord Mohun, are appointed to report the Conference with the House of Commons.
The House was adjourned during Pleasure, and the
Lords went to the Conference; which being ended, the
House was resumed.
Report of the Conference, concerning the Militia Bill.
Then the Lord Privy Seal reported the Effect of the
Conference lately had with the House of Commons, concerning the Act for regulating the Forces of this Kingdom.
He said, "That Mr. Serjeant Charlton did, in the
Name of the House of Commons, acquaint their
Lordships, that this Conference was desired by that
House, upon certain Amendments made by the Lords
unto a Bill sent up from that House to their Lordships,
for the settling of the Militia of this Realm: The
First Amendment was in the 18th and 29th Lines;
which, he said, was in Part agreed: The Difference
was Noble (fn. *) ; only in the Word ["Lord"] added to
the Word ["Lieutenant"]; and their Reason was, that
divers Acts of Parliament were extant, wherein the
Word ["Lord"] was not added to "Lieutenant",
as, the Second of Edward the Sixth, the First of
Queen Mary, and the Fourth and Fifth of Phillip and
Mary, Cap. 3. the 35th of Eliz. and the Third of
King James, and also the Petition of Right.
"He added, The very Act of this Parliament, which
was temporary, concerning the Militia, giveth not
the Title of "Lord" to "Lieutenant"; and it will
seem hard in the same Parliament to vary.
"Secondly, The Stile of "Lord Lieutenant" is
not used in the King's Commission for Lieutenancy;
neither in that Commission which includeth the whole
Kingdom, where the Lieutenant is called "Locum
tenens", and not "Dominus Locum tenens".
"Thirdly, Some Inconvenience might flow from such
an Expression, especially coming from their Lordships: It might possibly be taken as some Restraint to
the King's Power, if He could not make a Lieutenant
unless he were first a Peer.
"Fourthly, It was very usual to call Men in great
Places ["Lords"], though Acts of Parliament do
not. And this seemed a little to justle with his other
Reasons; whilst he allowed the customary Speech,
yet denied to have that recorded.
"The next Amendment was in the 30th and 32
Lines, which they agreed to in Part; leaving out,
after the Words ["to be"] in the Second Line of
the Amendment, these Words ["Colonels, Lieutenant Colonels, Majors, Captains, and other Commission Officers"], and instead thereof inserting "Lieutenants of Companies and Troops, and all other inferior Officers".
The Commons sent it up thus, that the respective
Lieutenants shall have Power and Authority to present to His Majesty, His Heirs and Successors, the
Name of such Person and Persons as they shall think
fit to be Deputy Lieutenants, and also the Names of
such as they shall think fit to be Colonels, Lieutenant
Colonels, Majors, Captains, and other Commission
"Their Lordships have altered it, by making the
Power absolute in the Lieutenants, in commissionating
all Officers without the King's Consent either precedent or subsequent. Yet thus far the Commons
agree; that any under the Degree of a Captain may
be made by the Lieutenant, so as these Words in
their Lordships Amendment be left out; videlicet,
["Colonels, Lieutenant Colonels, and Captains"].
"The next Amendment was in the 32 Line: Agreed
thus; inserting, before the Word ["upon"] in the
2d Line of the said Amendment, these Words ["to
be Colonels, Lieutenants, Majors, and Captains, of
the said Persons, so to be armed, arrayed, and weaponed as aforesaid"]; and adding between the Words
["Deputations"], and in the 3d Line ["and Commissions"], and after ["accordingly"] adding ["to
continue during His Majesty's Pleasure"]; and after
the Word ["said"] leaving out the Word ["Lord"];
and after the Word ["Directions"] inserting ["when
they are not absent"].
"He said, The Powers that were granted in this Act
were such as never were granted by Parliament. He
instanced in Two Particulars:
"1. In having Power to lead Men out of their
"2. In raising of Money.
"And therefore he conceived this Amendment necessary, that such great Powers might be limited during His Majesty's Pleasure; and that the greater Officers under the Command of any Lieutenant should
be consined to His Majesty's Approbation; for, he
said, it was a very great Power to be trusted in any
One Subject, to make Officers, and conduct Men out
of their Counties. Such great Powers, he said, had
need of sweetening, to make it grateful. And he
thought the Consequence of taking away the Deputy
Lieutenants Commission might be of ill Consequence,
by leaving a Power in the Lieutenants to take away
their Deputations in this Particular.
"The next was in the 47th Line. Some other
Amendments might come under the same Head. He
said, They did agree with their Lordships in the conducting Part, but differed with them in the charging
Part. They had Reason, he said, to insist upon it,
because probably the Lieutenant might be a Peer, and
therefore not fit to charge the Commons. And as
their Lordships were unwilling the Lords should be
charged by the Commons, so he thought it unequal
the Commons should be charged by any Lord. And
therefore the Commons had amended it, so as the Deputy Lieutenants, on the charging Part, might have
a Co-ordination with the Lieutenant.
"He added a further Reason: That hereby the
Charge would be borne more willingly by the Subject, when it is imposed by the Gentlemen of the
Country that are present there; and probably it
would by such be more equally assessed, and so consequently be more grateful to the People.
"The next Alteration was in the 44th Line, which
he conceived was only Vitium Scriptoris; and insert
instead of ["pay"] "paying", and instead of ["as"]
"Then he came to the 52 Line: Agreed; inserting,
after the Word ["Directions"] in the 4th Line of
the Amendments, these Words ["concerning their
Meetings"], and leaving out the Word ["Lord"] in
the 5th Line of the said Amendment.
"After this, he came to the 5th Line in the Fourth
Skin, which concerneth the searching of Houses for
Arms; unto which they agreed, with some Alterations; videlicet,
"After the Word ["Cities"] in the 3d Line, insert
these Words ["and their Suburbs"]; and after the
Words ["Town Corporate"] insert these Words
["Market Towns and Houses within the Bills of
Mortality, where it shall and may be lawful to search
in the Night Time by Warrant as aforesaid, if the
Warrant shall so direct, and, in Case of Resistance,
to enter by Force"]; and inserting, after the Word
["no"] in the First Line of the 4 Page of the said
Amendment, the Word ["Dwelling"]; and after the
Word ["Search"] in the 2d Line of the same Page,
these Words ["by virtue of this Act"]; and after
the Word ["Manual"] in the 3d Line of the same
Page, insert these Words ["or in the Presence of
the Lieutenant, or One of the Deputy Lieutenants,
of the same County, or Riding; and that in all
Places and Houses whatsoever, where Search is to be
made as aforesaid, it shall and may be lawful, in case
of Resistance, to enter by Force"]; and leaving out
the Word ["Lord"] in the 4th Line of the said
"He said, The Commons thought the Suburbs
equally dangerous as Cities and Market Towns, and
Houses within the Bills of Mortality as Towns Corporate. And as to the searching of the House of
any Peer, they paid so much Respect, as to have it
done in the Presence of Lieutenant or Deputy Lieutenant, being the chief Men in the Country. The
Reason, he said, was, That the Houses of Commoners were their Castles as well as the Lords Houses,
and could not be broken open. But they were willing to part with their Privilege, though they had not
many left, for the Public Safety.
"The Lords, he said, had greater Estates, and more
to lose, than the Commons; and therefore were more
concerned in the Public Safety; so as, if Arms were
laid up in a House of a Peer, to stay till the King's
Sign Manual cometh, might lose the Opportunity of
taking the Arms, or preventing of a Design.
"Besides, the Lords had divers Houses where they
did not reside. And if there were any Sanctuary
known exempted from searching, it is probable such
Places might be made dangerous Repositories: And
yet they pay so much Respect to the Lords, as to have
such Places searched in the Presence of such unto
whom the Safety of the County is committed.
"The next Amendment was in the 30 Line: Leave
out the Words ["and not otherwise"], whereby he
would involve their Lordships to pay not only for
what they had, but for what they might have; for,
he said, in Old Rents, there might be Fines, Heriots, and other real Profits; and therefore they leave
out those Words, which might discharge their Lordships from that Burden.
"Then he came to the Fifth Skin, where the First
Line is to be left out ["not being Peers; and that
the Deputy Lieutenants, &c."]. The Reason of this
Amendment is, in case the Deputy Lieutenant should
be a Peer, it would contradict the former Clause.
In the 4th Line, they do not agree to the Alterations in the Proviso for Purbeck, the Lieutenant there
being a Commoner, and he giving his Consent that it
"Then he came to the Amendments in the Seventh
Skin; leaving out the Word ["Lord"] in both, and
inserting, after the Word ["Direction"] in the Amendment to the 22th Line, ["when they are not Absent"].
"This was but a temporary Clause; and therefore
they insisted on it.
"Then he came to the Amendments in the Eighth
Skin, which concerned the Warden of the Stanneries;
which they agreed to, with this Addition, That the
former Qualification mentioned in the Bill might be
annexed to this concerning the Stanneries, in the 49th
Line of the same Skin; and it goeth thus, inserting
after the Word ["him"] in the 5th Line of the
Amendment these Words ["according to the Rules
and Directions before mentioned in this Act"], and
concluding the Amendment with these Words ["observing the Rules and Proportions appointed by this
"The next Amendment was in the 47th Line of the
Eighth Skin, concerning Tenants; that every Tenant
should perform his Agreement.
"It would be hard that every Foreign Charge should
be put upon the Tenants; which, he said, would be
in their Lordships Words; being so general, and so
might extend further than was intended: Therefore
the Commons were willing to take no more from the
Tenants than was necessary.
"Concerning the Monthly Tax in the 45th Line in
the Fifth Skin, adding the like Monthly Payment, to
that after the Word ["said"]; which they do to
avoid doubtful Expositions which would follow, and
therefore have added the (fn. *) Words ["every other,
"Then he came to their Lordships Provisos; which,
he said, were Three: The Two First they did not
agree to; the last Proviso they agreed to, with some
"The Reasons he gave against their Lordships First
"First, Though the Ten Pounds mentioned were voluntary, yet it bordered too near upon raising of
Money; which, he said, ought to have his Rise from
the House of Commons.
"Secondly, It did change a Duty into a Pecuniary
"Thirdly, It might prove too great a Temptation to
turn all the Horse of England into Money; and such
as would not, may, by Occasion thereof, be hardly
used. He said, It might give Occasion of Jealousy,
as looking toward a Standing Force: Not that, he said,
the Commons have any Jealousy of this Age; but,
in making of Laws, that ought to be looked after
what might be.
"He added, That there was no Clause in their Lordships Amendment to punish Disobedience, and regulate the Horse. It might happen (he said) that Horse
might be assessed, and yet no Horse provided; which
was too light to leave in a Law, and such a Law which
was to be perpetual.
"Then he came to their Lordships Second Proviso,
concerning the Clerk of the Council; concerning
which he said, That the Act takes nothing from
him; and therefore there needs no Saving for him.
He said, The Commons did not know how his Title
stood; but, at the best, a Saving was superfluous.
"Then he came to the last Proviso, concerning charging the Peers by Five of the Council being Peers:
To which they agree in Part, with this Alteration;
insert, in the 33th Line, after the Word ["Horse"],
the Word ["Horseman"]; and Line 34, inserting
after the Word ["Arms"] these Words ["or Foot
Soldiers and Arms"]; and leaving out, Line 35, these
Words ["being Peers of this Realm, and not otherwise"], and inserting instead thereof these Words following ["for their Houses and Lands in their respective actual Possession and Occupation for the Time
being, the true Value whereof being certified to the
King's Majesty and His Privy Council by the respective Lieutenants and their Deputies, or any Three or
more of them, who are hereby required to make the
same before the First Day of November, 1662, so as
such Assessment and Charge be made as aforesaid within Six Months next after the First Day of August,
1662, or within Three Months next after such Certificate, which shall first happen, under the Hands of
Three of the said Privy Council, to the respective
Lieutenants and Deputies, or any Three of them,
within One Month after such Assessment and Charge,
which Lieutenants and Deputies, or any Three of
them, shall in all Cases proceed upon such Assessments
and Charge, by inflicting of Penalties and otherwise,
according to the Powers, Rules, and Directions of
this Act, as if such Assessments and Charge had been
made by such Lieutenants and Deputies, or any
Three of them; and in Default of such Assessment
and Charge, or of Certificate of such Assessment and
Charge to be made in Manner aforesaid, then such
Peers so not assessed and charged, or not procuring
such Certificate, shall be assessed and charged for such
Houses and Lands, in such Manner, according to such
Rules and Proportions, as he for the Residue of his
Estate, or any other Person for his whole Estate,
by virtue of this Act, is to be assessed and charged"].
"This, he said, was the Alteration; wherein they
endeavour to agree with their Lordships so far as they
"The Reasons of Dissent from their Lordships were,
First, That their Lordships were not assessed in this
Act as Peers, but for their Lands.
"In the Poll Bill, the Commons yielded their Lordships to be assessed by Peers, because they were assessed there for their Honours: But this being a Land
Tax, and common to all, their Lordships are not
charged as Peers; and therefore the Commons in this
Case took the surest Way for the effecting of the
"He added, That in this they did not innovate; but
went the Old Way of Subsidies, in which there was
no Distinction, nor any Way of Difference of Commoners from the Lords.
"He said, Their Lordships in the Monthly Assessment were equally assessed with the Commons, without any such Distinction of Commissioners being Peers,
to assess their Lordships.
"He added (forgetting it seems what he had said
before for the Co-ordination of the Deputy Lieutenants with the Lord Lieutenants in charging), That
this was not an Assessing by the Lieutenants or Deputy Lieutenants, but by the Parliament; and so
their Power was but exemptive, and indeed a Ministerial Work; so as it will rather be a Diminution to
their Lordships in that Point, than an Advantage.
"He closed with this, That, in so extraordinary a
Matter, the People of the Nation should see the same
Rule extended to all, in that which so much concerned the Public Safety."
After this Report made, it being late, it is ORDERED,
That this Report shall be taken into Consideration
To-morrow Morning, at Nine of the Clock, the First
Bill to prevent Stoppages in the Streets of Westminster.
ORDERED, That the Committee for the Bill against
Stoppage of the Streets with Carts shall meet this Afternoon.
Vavasor, Mawe, & al. Delinquents, concerning Hatfield Level.
Whereas Thomas Vavasor, Edmond Mawe, and others,
are now in the Custody of the Serjeant at Arms attending this House, by virtue of an Order of the Tenth of
March last past, upon some Misdemeanors then complained against them concerning the Level of Hatfield
Chace: but, by reason of the great and public Affairs
of the Kingdom, and Straitness of Time, their Causes
cannot come to Hearing at this Bar, as was intended:
It is ORDERED, by the Lords Spiritual and Temporal in Parliament assembled, That the said Persons, and
every of them, are to be released of their Restraint or
Imprisonment, upon paying their Fees, and giving such
reasonable Bail as they are able, unto the said Serjeant
at Arms, to appear before the Lords in Parliament within Ten Days next after they shall be served with an
Order of this House, to answer such Matters as now
are charged upon them; and likewise that they in the
mean Time demean themselves peaceably and quietly in
relation to the said Level, according to former Orders
of this House; and the Sheriffs and Justices of Peace
near the said Level are to take Care for keeping of the
Peace, according to Law, as several Orders of this
House have enjoined in that Behalf: And hereunto all
Persons concerned are to yield Obedience, as the contrary will be answered at their Perils.
Dominus Capitalis Justiciarius de Com. Placit. declaravit præsens Parliamentum continuandum esse usque in
diem crastinum, videlicet, 13um diem instantis Maii,
hora nona Aurora, Dominis sic decernentibus.