House of Lords Journal Volume 17: 23 February 1703

DIE Martis, 23 Februarii.

Domini tam Spirituales quam Temporales præsentes fuerunt:

PRAYERS.

Subsidies Bill.

The House was adjourned during Pleasure, and put into a Committee upon the Bill, intituled, "An Act for granting to Her Majesty several Subsidies, for carrying on the War against France and Spain."

After some Time spent therein, the House was resumed.

And the Lord Herbert reported, "That the Committee had gone through the said Bill; and think it sit to pass, without any Amendment.

Roth to be heard, to the forfeited Estates in Ireland, Bill.

Upon reading the Petition of Jasper Roth of London, Merchant; praying to be heard, by his Counsel, to the Bill, intituled, "An Act for advancing the Sale of the forfeited Estates in Ireland; and for vesting such as remain unsold by the present Trustees in Her Majesty, Her Heirs and Successors, for such Uses as the same were before vested in the said Trustees; and for the more effectual selling and setting the said Estates to Protestants; and for explaining several Acts relating to the Lord Bophin and Sir Redmond Everard:"

It is ORDERED, by the Lords Spiritual and Temporal in Parliament assembled, That the Petitioner shall be heard, by his Counsel, as desired, To-morrow, at Eleven a Clock; as also One Counsel for Robert Leigh.

Observations of Commissioners of Accompts, Report of the Committee about.

The Duke of Somerset reported from the Lords Committees appointed to consider of the Observations delivered into this House, from the Commissioners for examining and stating the Public Accompts, "That the Committee have considered of the said Observations; and upon the First Paragraph, they have this farther to observe:

"They do find, by the Certificates delivered to them by Mr. Auditor Bridges, and by Mr. Moody Deputy to the late Auditor Done, N° 1, 2, 3, that divers Accomptants have not passed, or finished, their Accompts during the Three last Reigns; particularly the Accompts of the Navy are very far behind, no Treasurer of the Navy having perfected his Accompts since the Year One Thousand Six Hundred Sixty-seven, except the Earl of Danby, who was empowered, by Privy Seal, to pass his Accompt for the Time he was sole Treasurer of the Navy, (videlicet,) from the 14th of October 1671, to the Twelfth of July 1673, independent of former Accompts; by which Means the Imprests standing out upon Sir Thomas Littleton's Accompt were dropt, and have been since pardoned.

"Since that Time, no Treasurer of the Navy has passed a regular Accompt, not being duly charged with the Imprests standing out upon preceding Accompts, nor had a final Discharge.

"Sir Edward Seymour's Accompts are declared to the First of January 1680, on which he was indebted the Sum of £. 181, 241. 16s. 2¾d.; and he had an Allowance upon Bills of Imprests for the Sum of £. 1,446,090. 11s. 4¼d.; but his final Accompt, ending at Midsummer 1681, being not declared and transmitted to the Pipe, no Process could at this Time issue against the Persons who were accomptable for this Money; and if, in the Space of Twenty-two Years, any of them have failed, or become insolvent, the Sums that they ought to have re-paid are lost to the Public, by the unreasonable Delay in passing this Accompt.

"That, from Midsummer 1681 to the 8th of April 1689, the late Lord Falkland was Treasurer of the Navy; during which Time no Accompt has passed, nor any Money paid by him upon Bills of Imprest has been brought to Accompt.

"That, by reason the Two former Treasurers have not passed their Accompts, the Earl of Orford was obliged to have a Privy Seal, to empower him to pass his First Accompt, without being charged with the Imprests made by Sir Edward Seymour and the Lord Falkland.

"That the said Earl's Accompts are declared to the last of March 1695; and his Accompts to the last of December 1698 are delivered to the Auditors, and will be ready for Declaration in a short Time; but his final Accompt is not yet passed the Navy-board.

"That, by a new Method of accompting in the Navy, the Earl of Orford has had no Allowance of such Money as he had paid to divers Persons upon Bills of Imprests and otherwise; which Method seems a very great Hardship to the Accomptant, and too great an Indulgence to the said Persons, no Proceedings at Law being to be had against them; and the Treasurer appearing to be indebted in great Sums, which he has paid.

"Upon these Observations, the Committee conceive, there must have been some great Delays in passing the Accompts of the Navy; which ought to be found out, and prevented for the future: And as one Means to forward the Accompts, they offer it as their Opinion, That the Comptroller of the Treasurer of the Navy's Accompts, and some others of the Commissioners of the Navy, should be excused from any other Business of the Navy-board, and employed only to examine and sign the Ledgers, and dispatch the Accompts of the Navy, till such Time as they have brought up the Accompts that have been so long in Arrear, to the great Loss of the Public.

"And also, that the respective Persons who have had Money imprested to them by Orders of the Commissioners of the Navy, may be set insuper, from Time to Time, in the proper Accompts of the said Treasurer, that so it may appear who is answerable to the Public for those Sums.

"The Committee do find, that anciently, and before the Restoration, by the Course of the Exchequer, Process did issue, by Directions from the Lord Treasurer, minuted upon the general Imprest Rolls, the King's Remembrancer then attending him with the said Rolls; but, ever since the Year 1663, that Method has been disused, and Process has issued by Warrants from the Treasury, upon Certificates from the Auditors of Imprest, setting forth how far each Accomptant was behind in his Accompts.

"They find, that the Orders made about issuing Process by the Earl of Rochester, when he was Treasurer (which seems to be the Foundation of this Observation made by the Commissioners) were never observed by the Rememberancer; there being no Entry of these Orders in his Office, nor do any of the Senior Clerks remember that any such Orders were ever transmitted to them. And if Process should go out every issuable Term, it would be extremely vexatious to those Persons who are to accompt annually, and no Advantage to the Crown; because thereby they would be under Process before it could be practicable for them to come upon their Accompts.

"And whereas it is represented, that the Auditor of the Exchequer's Neglect, in not making out the general Imprest Rolls Half-yearly, has been the Occasion of the great Prejudice to the Public, by Persons not accompting in due Time; the Committee cannot but observe, That as for Forty Years past no Process has issued upon these Rolls, so neither is it practicable to accompt by them; every Accomptant having a particular Imprest Roll, expressing the Sums he is chargeable with at the Exchequer (during the Time for which he then accompts), without which the Auditors of Imprest cannot give him a proper Charge.

"But the Committee are of Opinion, that some more effectual Method than is already in Practice should be found out, as well for the Safety of the Public, as for the Dispatch of the Accompts in general.

"The Committee do agree with the Commissioners in their Observation in the Second Paragraph, "That the voluntary Charge of the Paymaster of the Army is under no Check;" and they think it would be of Use, if some proper Person were appointed, to comptroll the Accompts of the Paymaster of the Army, and to examine and sign his voluntary Charge; and that the said Comptroller should, from Time to Time, certify to the Secretary at War, all Deductions that are to be made from the established Pay of the Forces; to the End that the same may be specified and deducted in every Debenture and Warrant for Clearings.

"As to the Third Paragraph; the Committee sent to the Commissioners, to explain their Observation in relation to Tallies alledged by them to have been unnecessarily struck; and received in Answer the Papers marked 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6; which not giving Satisfaction to the Committee, they desired a farther Explanation of these Papers; whereupon the said Commissioners transmitted Two other Papers, the One dated the 16th, the other the 18th Instant: Upon Consideration of all which, it appears to the Committee, that this Observation is not well grounded.

"For, First, The Commissioners conclude, that Interest might have been saved on the Tallies struck upon the First Part of the Land Taxes; because the Produce of the said Aids was paid into the Exchequer within Four or Five Months after the said Tallies were struck: But it appears to this Committee, by a Paper, marked N° 1, that the First Part of all Land Taxes, from the Year 1692, have been charged with large Sums, as well for repaying the Deficiencies of former Years, as to repay what was necessarily borrowed to carry on the current Service, before the Acts passed; so that the First Tallies levied after the Acts passed were postponed by these Transferences, and placed in a very remote Course of Payment; and the First Money paid in on the Acts was applied to discharge Tallies that had been struck many Months before.

"And, Secondly, it is well known that Credit in those Years was at so low an Ebb, that, besides the Interest then running on Tallies, there wanted considerable Premiums to raise Money on them for the Use of the Public.

"But the Committee find, that the Treasury, when it was in their Power, did take the Opportunity of saving Interest to the Public, particularly in the Case of the Two Millions subscribed for the East India Trade, upon which the Whole might have been taken up at an Interest of £. 8. per Centum: Yet the Treasury levied Tallies of Anticipation, without Interest upon it; and the Public was put to no other Charge of Interest than for the Sum of £. 62,000. struck in Tallies for a very pressing Service of the Navy, at an Interest of £. 6. per Centum only; as appears by the Paper marked N° 2.

"They also find, that some of the Loans, which were obtained before the Land Taxes passed, and transferred thereunto, have been of great Service to the Public, by being applied to paying off Seamen, and saving the Charge of them during the Winter; and it particularly appears, that, out of Loans procured on Credit of the Exchequer, in the Year 1697, upon the Conclusion of the Peace, there were 51,000 Men of the Forces then in the King's Pay discharged or disbanded before the Parliament gave any Supply; as appears by the Papers marked N° 1, 2; and several Ships were, in like Manner, put out of Pay; whereby there was a very great Sum saved to the Nation.

"As to the particular Instances given by the said Commissioners, of Tallies struck unnecessarily, the Committee observe:

"First, That the said Commissioners, by their Paper N° 1, do charge the 2^d 4s. Aid with more than was actually lent thereupon by £. 118,969. 6s. 11¾d. as appears by the Accompt marked (A.)

"Secondly, As to the Sum of £. 622,096. 13 s. transferred to the Third Four Shillings Aid, mentioned in their Paper N° 2; it was all applied to the Use of the Navy and Army; and there was that Necessity for borrowing it before any Supply could be granted, that the King was contented to pay the Interest thereof (amounting to £. 4840. 13s. 10 d.) out of His own Revenue; and the Public was not charged with any Interest, but from the Time it was transferred to the Aid; as appears by the Papers marked (B. C.)

"Thirdly, As to the £. 300,000. borrowed on the Customs mentioned in their Paper N° 3, the same was all lent by the Bank, at £. 5. per Centum; and it was thought at that Time a very great Service, to procure any Money upon a public Fund at that Rate.

"Fourthly, The Commissioners Paper, N° 4, differs from their own Explanation thereof £. 80,000.; and the Accompt they give of the Application of the Tallies therein mentioned seems to be an entire Mistake; as appears by the Paper marked (D.)

"Fifthly, As to the £. 200,000. Loans on Malt, mentioned in the Paper N° 5; they appear to have been chiefly applied to the Service of His Majesty's Family at the Time He was going Abroad; and the Interest on them was so far from being unnecessary, that it did not hinder the Tallies struck thereupon from going at a large Discount.

"Sixthly, The Committee find an Error of £. 11,760. in the Commissioner's Paper N° 6, as appears by the Accompt marked (E.) The Committee observing that no great Debt has been brought upon the Nation by striking Tallies unnecessarily, as is suggested by the said Commissioners; they sent an Order to the Treasury, for an Accompt of the Supplies that had been given from the 5th of November 1688 to the End of the Year 1697, that they might know how far the same have answered the public Occasions, or proved deficient of the Sums that the Parliament intended to give: And they do find, by the Accompts marked A. B. C. D E. F. G. H. that the Supplies given in the respective Years have fallen short, and been deficient of answering the Sums voted and intended to be granted, the Sum of £. 5,717,225. 10 s. 0¼d. And the Committee conceive, that these Deficiencies have been the great Occasion of the Debts owing to the Army, Navy, and other public Offices.

"Besides these Deficiencies of the Supplies, which have occasioned the great Arrears that are due in several Offices; the Committee take Notice, that there have been great Deficiencies in the Produce of the Funds, which have fallen very much short of answering so much Money as it was estimated they would produce, whereby the Tallies authorized to be struck thereupon have not been paid off within the Time for which they were first granted; which has occasioned the long Continuance of many Taxes and Supplies, to make good the Deficiencies of others: These Deficiencies, in the Year 1697, amounted to the Sum of £. 5,160,459. 14s. 9¼d.; and were provided for by an Act passed 8° & 9° Gulielmi, intituled, "An Act for making good Deficiencies, &c." And in the last Year, there were more of the same Nature, amounting to very near Three Millions, provided for by an Act passed Primo Annæ, intituled, "An Act for making good Deficiencies, &c." And these Deficiencies, (videlicet,) of the Supplies (whereby the Money actually given each Year, fell short of the Expence in that Year, as it was settled and agreed in Parliament); and the Deficiencies of the Funds (whereby the Money actually paid in on the Aids fell short of the Sums allowed to be borrowed thereupon) seem to have been the real Occasion of the great Debt the Nation at present labours under.

"As to the Fourth Paragraph; the Committee do find, that the Duty of £. 25. per Centum on French Goods was granted to His late Majesty, His Heirs and Successors, for One and Twenty Years; and was intended rather as a Prohibition, than an Aid; and they conceive His Majesty might make Use thereof, for the Uses of the Civil Government, till the same was particularly appropriated by Parliament: The same may be said of the 22d. per Pound on East-India Silks, and the Seizures mentioned in the next Paragraph; especially since His Majesty had been graciously pleased to apply near Three Millions out of His Revenues to the Occasions of the War; as appears per Paper N° (6.)

"But the Committee cannot forbear taking Notice of the Manner of Expression used by the Commissioners in the Fifth Paragraph. They say, the whole Produce of the First of these (videlicet, 22 d. per Pound on East-India Silks) to the Time it was appropriated, was applied to Secret Service, and to the Discharge of a Pension: The whole Produce was £. 784. 8s. 7d. whereof £. 750 was paid to the Dutchess of Grafton, on her Pension; and £. 34. 8 s. 7 d. to Mr. Lowndes for Secret Service.

"The Committee find, there has been such Allowances made as are mentioned in the Sixth Paragraph; and they think it very unreasonable, that the Charges of Law Suits for determining the Rights of Officers should be placed to the King's Accompt.

"The Committee sent a Copy of the 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th, and 11th Paragraphs, to the late Agents for Taxes; and have received their Answers, in Writing; by which it appears, that of about Twenty-four Millions, under their Care and Inspection, there is the Sum of £. 64,284. 2s. 7¾d. now in Arrear; and they say, it is hardly possible so much as £. 15,000 should be lost.

"The Committee do not agree with the Commissioners in the Twelfth Paragraph: They think the Cash of the Pay-masters may be as safely lodged in the Bank, as kept in their private Houses, and may be more convenient for making their Payments.

"As to the 13th and 14th Paragraphs, relating to the Auditor of the Exchequer; the Committee have examined divers Officers of the Exchequer, upon Oath; and do find, that no Auditor of the Exchequer, except the Lord Halifax, has, for above Forty Years last past, examined the Tellers Vouchers; that neither Sir Robert Pye, Sir Robert Long, or Sir Robert Howard, did ever do it, either since the Orders made by the Earl of Rochester in 1685, or since the late Act of Parliament.

"It appeared to the Committee, that an Examination of the Vouchers Once in Three Months, as is prescribed by the said Orders, or by the Act, would be ineffectual, and no Security to the Public; the Tellers having an Allowance in the Weekly Certificates of all Payments directed by the Auditor upon them, whether the Parties have come for their Money or not: And the Sum so directed being discharged out of the Certificate, and made liable to the Demand of the Party, it was presumed there was no Failure in the Payment; but there happening to be some Stop in the Payments, upon the re-coining of the Money, the Treasury appointed Two Persons, at the Salary of Five Hundred Pounds per Annum, to examine the Tellers Payments, who continued to examine them Once a Week, till the Lord Halifax came to be Auditor; and then the Treasury, to save this Five Hundred Pounds per Annum to the King, put this Business upon him; since that Time, he has been more than ordinary careful and diligent in examining the Tellers Vouchers, and securing the Out-cash, which is a Name used in the Exchequer for the Money remaining in the Hands of the Teller, after it is directed by the Auditor, and not paid away by the Teller: This formerly was an inconsiderable Sum; but, by Increase of Business in the Exchequer, has been, of late Years, generally Forty or Fifty Thousand Pounds at a Time remaining in the Hands of each Teller's Clerk, without any Control.

"But the present Auditor, thinking this was too great a Sum to be trusted in that Manner, made a new Regulation, to prevent any Loss that might happen thereby to the Public; and has constantly employed a Clerk, to examine the Vouchers of the Tellers every Day; and all the Money that is not paid away that Day is locked up in Chests with Three Locks, whereof the Clerk of the Pells and the Deputy Chamberlain keep Two Keys, and the Teller a Third; and the Committee are of Opinion, this has been a great Security to the public Treasure.

"They likewise find, it has been the constant Practice amongst the Tellers, since the first granting the Annuities, to issue all the Money directed on them to Robert Squibb, who, together with Three other Persons, were intrusted by the Tellers, under good Security, to pay it to the respective Proprietors.

"That the Tellers kept a Book on purpose, in which the Receipts of the said Squibb were entered; that, upon the Auditor's Examination of the Vouchers for the Payments upon the Annuities, the Tellers produced the Receipt of Squibb, as had always been done, to vouch their having paid, by the Hands of those intrusted by them, so much upon the Annuities, as was allowed them in the Weekly Certificates: And the Committee conceive, the Auditor has discharged his Trust, if he sees that the Sum of the Receipts produced agree with the Payments allowed to the Teller; it being, in most Cases, impossible for him to know whether the Voucher, which the Teller shews him, be a true and legal Voucher.

"It is the Duty of the Tellers, not to part with any of the King's Treasure, without taking a Receipt, to discharge the King; and therefore their Vouchers, after Examination, remain in their own Hands, because they are to be answerable for them, both to the Parties concerned, and the Public.

"They likewise find, that, in the Year 1693, the Salaries mentioned in this Observation were given to the respective Officers, for themselves and their Clerks, which have been paid out of the Surplus of the Duties at the End of each Year, which was granted to His Majesty, His Heirs and Successors; and the same have been paid to all the present Officers of the Exchequer to Christmas last.

"As to the remaining Paragraphs, relating to the Commissioners of the Stamp-office and the Commissioners of the Customs; the Committee desire to be referred to the Answers, in Writing, delivered in by the respective Commissioners, not having had Time to enter into a particular Examination of them: But, as far as the Committee can judge, upon reading over the Answer of the Commissioners of the Customs, no material Observations made by the Commissioners of Accompts seem to be well examined, and rightly grounded."

Then, the Report being read, it was proposed, "To agree with the Committee."

And Debate thereupon:

The Question was put, "Whether this House shall proceed upon the Consideration of this Report the First Business To-morrow?"

It was Resolved in the Affirmative.

ORDERED, That this Report be taken into Consideration the First Business To-morrow.

Subsidies Bill.

ORDERED, by the Lords Spiritual and Temporal in Parliament assembled, That the Bill, intituled, "An Act for granting to Her Majesty several Subsidies, for carrying on the War against France and Spain," shall be read the Third Time on Friday next.

Message from H. C. with a Bill.

A Message from the House of Commons, by Mr. Conyers and others:

Who brought up a Bill, intituled, "An Act for preventing Frauds in Her Majesty's Duties upon stampt Vellum, Parchment, and Paper;" to which they desire the Concurrence of this House.

Stamp Duties, to prevent Frauds in, Bill.

Hodie 1^a vice lecta est Billa, intituled, "An Act for preventing Frauds in Her Majesty's Duties upon stampt Vellum, Parchment, and Paper."

Message from H. C. to remind the Lords of Whitaker's Bill.

A Message from the House of Commons, by Mr. Lownds and others:

To put this House in Mind of the Bill, intituled, "An Act to oblige Edward Whitaker to accompt for all such Sums of Public Money as have been received by him."

Militia Bill.

Then the House was adjourned during Pleasure, and put into a Committee upon the Bill, intituled, "An Act for raising the Militia of this Kingdom for the Year One Thousand Seven Hundred and Three, notwithstanding the Month's Pay formerly advanced be not re-paid."

After some Time, the House was resumed.

And the Lord Herbert reported, "That the Committee had gone through the said Bill; and think it sit to pass, without any Amendment."

Hodie 3^a vice lecta est Billa, intituled, "An Act for raising the Militia of this Kingdom for the Year One Thousand Seven Hundred and Three, notwithstanding the Month's Pay formerly advanced be not re-paid."

The Question was put, "Whether this Bill shall pass?"

It was Resolved in the Affirmative.

ORDERED, The Commons have Notice, that the Lords have agreed to the said Bill, without any Amendment.

Adjourn.

Dominus Custos Magni Sigilli declaravit præsens Parliamentum continuandum esse usque ad et in diem Mercurii, vicesimum quartum diem instantis Februarii, hora undecima Auroræ, Dominis sic decernentibus.