Die Veneris, 26 Martii 1830.
The Lord President in the Chair.
The Honourable Mount Stuart Elphinstone is called in, and
further examined as follows:
You stated in your Evidence Yesterday, that the Grants of Land
called Jaghires are resumable by the Government, at Pleasure,
at the Death of the Occupier; are they in general so resumed?
Under the Native Government they are not in general so
resumed, because the same Motive for keeping the Troops up
continues to exist that existed at the Time they were granted.
Have they been resumed under your Government where Occasion
All the Jaghires in the Mahratta Country which were for the
Maintenance of Troops were resumed at the Conquest, that Portion
only being left which was for the Maintenance of the Chief himself
and his immediate Followers. When the Chief was not a Member
of a Family of Consequence, or where there was no other Motive
for keeping up the Allowance, the Jaghire was resumed at his
Death. The Native Governments frequently resumed, even
during the Life of a Jaghiredar, when they were offended with
Are the Committee to understand that there has been no Resumption under the Government of the Company during the Life
of the Occupant?
I do not recollect any Resumption since the first Conquest from
Is there any regular Principle laid down as to the Resumption
of Grants when Opportunity is afforded for it, or is each Case left
to be considered on its own Merits?
In the old Territories I think each Case is left to be considered
on its own Merits. In the Deccan, when I quitted that Part of
the Country to go to Bombay, I sent in a List of all the Jaghiredars
with a Recommendation specifying which should be perpetual and
which should be resumed, and on what Occasions.
Can you state generally the Principle on which you made the
I think all granted from The Great Mogul or the Mahratta
Rajahs, and all which belonged to very old Families under the
Peishwas, were to be perpetual.
Was that with a view to the Maintenance, in the Country,
of that Class of Society which we should describe as the
Partly that, and partly to conciliate the Feelings of the
Where the Jaghires are resumed, and no fresh Grants made to
Individuals, in what Manner are they disposed of?
There exists no Rule for their Disposal at present. I strongly
recommended that they should form a Fund from whence to
afford the Rewards for meritorious Native Servants of the
What Extent of Interest is given to the Native Servants when
those Grants are made to them as Rewards?
They are sometimes granted for Life, sometimes for more than
one Life, and sometimes perpetually. It will probably be best
that the Grant should frequently be perpetual.
Do you conceive that the Prospect of acquiring Land under
such Circumstances operates as a strong Stimulus to the Exertions
I should conceive that it certainly would.
You stated in your Evidence Yesterday, that considerable Grants
were enjoyed by particular Families, naming the Putwurdens particularly, and very advantageously managed by them; will you
describe more particularly what those Families are?
It is one single Family of that Name. They have branched into
several Divisions. The Lands which they originally held have
been divided among them, and they have obtained new ones, so
that they possess a considerable Tract of Country. Though not
of very old Standing (probably the Third Generation), they were
Military Chiefs under the Peishwa, and their Lands were granted
them for the Maintenance of Troops in his Service.
Can you state what their System of Management is?
I am not acquainted particularly with the Details of their
Management; but I have heard their Success ascribed to their not
farming their Lands; to their Moderation in Assessment; to their
always employing the same Servants; and to the Advantage they
derive from the Emigration of numerous Cultivators from the
worse managed Districts of the Peishwa in their Neighbourhood.
Have the Lands under those Circumstances materially improved
in productive Value?
They have improved considerably in productive Value.
You are of Opinion then that there is a Disposition in the Natives
of India to emigrate freely into Districts in which they find themselves liable to be moderately assessed, and where they find the
Security of Person and Property?
I think there certainly is such a Disposition, though it may be
limited by Distance and other Obstacles.
Are the Persons to whom Jaghires have generally been granted
of the Hindoo or the Mohamedan Faith?
Generally the Hindoo; though those of the Moguls are perhaps
more frequently Mohamedan; but those form but a small Part of
Have you observed any Difference in the System of Management
between those of the one and the other Persuasion?
Generally speaking, the Mohamedans are more careless and
more rapacious than the Hindoos; but some of the Hindoos are
quite as bad as any Mohamedans.
Which of the Two Descriptions have the greatest Disposition to
I should think the Hindoos, decidedly.
In Cases where Capital has been so accumulated, in what Way
is it generally applied?
A good deal is hoarded by the Chiefs that have a Disposition
to save, and it is spent by their Successors who have another
Turn. Great Sums are expended on Marriages and on other
Is there any Disposition to apply it in Commercial Speculations?
The great Native Chiefs often lend out Money at high Interest,
which is employed in Commerce; and they sometimes employ
Banking Houses to carry on Commercial Business on their
Account; but this is seldom avowed, and is not the general
In those Cases is it lent to Native or to European Merchants?
To Native Merchants.
Do the Natives acquiesce willingly in the great Powers which are
understood to be exercised by the Jaghiredars?
With as much Willingness as in the Sentences of other
Quite as much, unless in Cases where the Proceedings of the
Jaghiredars are evidently tyrannical, which sometimes they are,
owing to individual Character.
Do you conceive considerable Attachment to exist towards the
Jaghiredars where they conduct themselves with Leniency towards
the Population under them?
I conceive that the People are attached to them, but it is not so
strong as a Clannish Attachment.
You stated that the Survey of the Country, intended with a
view to a new System of Leases, was not yet completed?
No Leases have been made under the particular Plan you
described Yesterday, namely, that for a limited Term, not to be
None have been made in furtherance of that particular Plan;
but Leases have been ordered in the whole of the District of
Guzzerat for Seven Years, no immediate Alteration in the Assessment being considered necessary there. Most of Guzzerat is not
heavily assessed at present; it is the most flourishing Country in
What are the comparative Advantages which Guzzerat possesses?
It is very difficult to answer that Question. Probably that it is a
Country into which the Mahrattas were never able completely to
introduce their Authority; or at least that People discontented with
their Government have very great Facilities in retiring beyond the
Reach of its Power.
Under what Authority then was Guzzerat administered?
It was administered under the Authority of the Mahratta Government; but it is full of Forests and Ravines, and Places that are
very difficult of Access, and into which their Cavalry could never
penetrate, and where they could never perfectly establish their
Dominion. The Inhabitants of the most accessible Parts had always
those Retreats to retire to in case they were oppressed by the Native
Do you conceive then the Prevalence of the ancient Usages of
the Country to have been more favourable to its Prosperity than
any regular Native Government?
I am not sure that it is so much owing to particular Usages of
that Country, as to the Limit which was placed to the Exactions of
the Government by the Means which the Natives possessed of
Can you state generally the degree of Variation in the Amount
of Produce throughout the Country arising from the Variety of
I cannot state it very precisely; but it sometimes amounts to a
total Failure of all Revenue.
You mean to the Failure of Produce to such an Extent as to
make it impossible to extract a Revenue?
In comparing the Lands leased to Zemindars with those leased
to Ryots, have you found it more easy to deal with the one Description than with the other?
Lands are leased to Zemindars (though not bearing that Name)
in one Part only of the Bombay Territory. It has not been found
easy to manage, owing to the Difficulty of protecting the Ryots
from the Exactions of the Zemindars.
With respect to the Payments due to the Government, and in
his other Relations with them, is the Zemindar, or the Person
answering to that Appellation, more punctual and more to be
depended on than the Ryot?
I should think there would probably be less Fluctuation in the
Revenue where the Payment was by the Proprietor of a considerable Tract of Country than where it was by individual Ryots.
Is the Existence of a Class of Persons under the Description of
Zemindars an Advantage to the Government in other respects?
In that Part of the Country it is by no means an Advantage to
the Government. The People are particularly oppressed; and
from particular Circumstances I do not conceive that the Zemindars
are attached to the Government. The principal Circumstance is,
that they are chiefly Dependents of the Peishwa's Government,
recently elevated by its Favour.
Is there any Difference in the Moral Character or Education of
the Zemindars, as compared with the Ryots, to the Advantage of
There is a considerable Difference. The whole of the Zemindars
in the Part of the Country alluded to are Brahmins, and consequently of the educated Class; they are generally People that have
been connected with the Government, or with farming the
You do not conceive then that any of the beneficial Effects to
Society, and the Existence of a better Class, or an Aristocracy, is
attained by the Maintenance of the Zemindar Class?
Certainly not in that Instance; but I beg to observe that
this Class is entirely dissimilar to that which bears the same Name
You consider then that the same Circumstances, affecting the
Gradations of Society, do not apply in the same degree to the
different Parts of India?
I do not conceive that they do.
Can you state whether the Zemindars in Bengal are Brahmins
of the same Description as you have stated the Zemindars under the
Bombay Government to be?
No; they are quite a different Description of People; they are
seldom Persons that have been employed in the Public Service.
Will you state upon what Circumstances of Difference in their
Condition you found the more favourable Opinion you appear to
have of the Zemindars of Bengal, as compared with those under the
I have had very little Opportunity of judging of the Zemindars
of Bengal, especially in Bengal Proper, where they principally
exist; but I know that the Administration of the correspondent
Class in Bombay is attended with very bad Effects, which I do not
hear to be observed to an equal Extent in Bengal.
You stated in your Evidence Yesterday, that none of the higher
Ranks are employed as Native Judges; does that arise from their
Indisposition to undertake that Office, or from their supposed
Unfitness for it?
From their Indisposition.
How do you account for that Indisposition to hold Offices
necessarily connected with the Exercise of great Authority?
Most of them have been accustomed to great arbitrary Authority
under the former Government, and would not be contented with
so limited a Share of Power as they would possess under our
Supposing the Salaries of the Native Judges to be increased,
would that produce a Desire to hold those Offices?
I make no doubt it would in some degree; but I am not certain
that it would improve the Administration of Justice, as it is probable
that those great Chiefs would be less attentive than Persons of
From what Class of Persons are the Judges now selected?
The Question is not easy to be answered, from the great
Difference in the Grades of Society in India and in this Country;
but they are generally Persons who have been employed in the
middle Ranks of Offices under the former Government.
You stated Yesterday your Doubts as to the beneficial Effects of
the Introduction of the Jury System into the Native Courts in
India; does that apply equally to what we term the Grand and the
I think it applies equally; the Power of the Grand Jury being
smaller, the Inconvenience would be less, but I think the Advantage
would be proportionably so. The Object in India is not to prevent
innocent Persons being brought to Trial, so much as to obtain the
Assistance of Natives to sift the Evidence brought forward against
Persons who are accused.
Do you conceive any Advantage would result from a Combination of the Supreme Court with the Court of Sudder Adawlut, for
the Purpose of administering Justice to the Natives?
I do not think any Advantage would result from it. It would
have a Tendency to introduce the Technicalities of the English
Law into the Administration of Justice in the lower Courts.
Should you, for the same Reason, consider that the Establishment
of Circuits by the Supreme Court would be objectionable?
Supposing it was thought expedient to form a new Code or
System of Legal Regulations for the Natives, would it be necessary,
in your Opinion, to have a different Code or System in the
different Parts of India, owing to the Variety of Laws and Usages
Yes, I conceive it certainly would.
Do you think it would be found quite impracticable to apply
One common Code to the whole of the Indian Territories?
I think it would. There might be a general Correspondence,
such as may be found in Countries in Europe the Laws of which
are founded on the Roman Law; but there must also be very great
Points of Difference.
Subject to those Differences, do you think that such a Regulation
might be attended with Advantage?
Perhaps at some remote Period it might; but in the present
State of our Knowledge of India I think it is desirable to abstain
from all Attempts to introduce Uniformity.
Do you conceive it necessary to maintain in India Two distinct
Systems of Law for the Europeans and for the Natives?
I think it is. The Europeans would never be contented with
the System of Law that suits the Natives; and the probability is,
that great Alterations might be made to accommodate them that
would not be equally suitable or even acceptable to the Natives.
Do you conceive that any Dissatisfaction exists in the Minds of
the Natives, from the Idea that there is one Law for the Europeans
and another for them?
I should not think there was, as they are accustomed, even
amongst themselves, to see different Classes living under different
Laws. There may be some Dissatisfaction from the Courts to which
the Europeans are subject not being equally accessible with those to
which the Natives are subject.
Having filled different Official Situations in various Parts of India,
have you formed any Opinion, as to the Native Race, which is most
capable of Improvement; or do you consider them all in the same
Light in that respect?
I do not conceive that the Difference is very great. Some are
more tied down by Religious Prejudices than others, and consequently less accessible to Improvement.
Do you conceive that upon the whole those Religious Prejudices
are in any degree diminishing under the present System of
Amongst some few of the educated Classes only, I think
Do you see any probability of that Diminution of Prejudice
extending itself further among the other Classes of Society, either
from the Effect of Education or any other Circumstances?
A very great probability, from the Effect of Education.
How does it appear to you that the Objects of Education can be
most extensively and usefully effected?
By the Encouragement to the greatest Extent of Village Schools;
by the printing of Books for the Use of those Schools, and of
Books of Entertainment and Instruction for the lower Class of
People; by the Foundation of Colleges for higher Branches of
Knowledge, and by the Publication of Books in those Departments of Instruction. Probably more by a systematic Education
of the Natives for Office than by any other Means that can be
Are the Brahmins or other Persons who possess Authority
among the Natives favourably or unfavourably disposed to the
Extension of Education amongst them?
In general I should think they are rather unfavourable, though
some Individuals have exerted themselves to promote it.
But you do not apprehend such a degree of Resistance from
them as would ultimately defeat the Object?
I do not; as long as they do not perceive the inseparable Connection between the Diffusion of Education and the Destruction of
the Superstition on which their Power is founded.
In reference to the Education of the Company's Servants at
Home, you have stated Objections to exist to a separate System of
Education; do you conceive that the Knowledge usually acquired
at our Schools and Colleges is a sufficient Preparation for young
Men to go out to India, and to exercise the Functions which are
there allotted to them soon after their Arrival?
I should think they were. They might perhaps with Advantage
also be instructed in the Grammars of the Native Languages; and
those who chose, in Sanscrit and Arabic, which are dead
Languages in India as well as here. But all other Knowledge
peculiar to India is better acquired on the Spot; while much
Knowledge is attainable in England which can never afterwards be
obtained in India.
Would it not be necessary to establish a Preparatory System of
Education, then, after their arriving in India?
Some Attention would be necessary to provide Native Instructors
for them; but I think their Studies might be left to their own
Conduct, provided they were subjected to strict Examinations before
Is there any thing that occurs to you beyond what you have
already stated, calculated to effect an Improvement in the Condition
of the Native Subjects of The East India Company?
I have stated the principal Means of improving their Condition;
which are, light Assessment, clear Laws, Education, and Employment. No other Means of improving their Condition occur to me;
but I might perhaps lay more Stress on Education expressly for
Employment, as contributing so much to promote the Fitness of
the Natives for taking a Share in the Administration of the
Country, and also as affording a Stimulus to Education, by
the Connection which it establishes between Instruction and
Would there be any Difficulty in finding Persons in India
calculated to carry on the Education of Natives with the particular
view you have described?
Very great Difficulty in procuring Persons capable of teaching
the European Branches of it; that is one of the principal Obstacles
which is felt to the Promotion of the higher Branches of Native
Education. The only Remedy would be, to provide young Men
properly qualified in this Country, who should proceed to India at
a sufficiently early Age to admit of their learning the Languages of
Have you any doubt, that supposing such a Supply were provided from this Country in the first instance, a sufficient Number
of Natives might ultimately become qualified to carry on the
Business of Education, in the Sense you have described?
I have no doubt of it.
Is there any Willingness on the Part of the Natives to learn the
There is no Unwillingness; but there is no great Disposition
among them to learn it, except where they are likely to be employed
in Offices where a Knowledge of English is necessary.
Is the Condition of those Lands that are granted as Jaghires
superior to the Condition of those for which a regular Rent is
Generally speaking, I should say not, though there are Instances
in which Jaghire Lands may be superior to any of those which pay
a Revenue; but of this Fact I am not positive.
How is it with respect to those Lands that are held at a small
Quit Rent, or those that are held without paying any Rent at all?
The Difference between them and the Lands which pay Rent
is by no means so great as might be expected.
Are the Sea Customs ad valorem or rated Duties?
There was an Alteration of the System going on when I left
India. I rather think a Tariff was to be established, according to
which all Duties were to be paid; or rather they were paid
according to certain Rates, and the Value was to be fixed by the
Has the Rate of the Sea Customs been recently diminished?
I think not, under the Bombay Presidency.
Do you know what Proportion the Transit Duties bear to the
whole Amount of that levied under the Head of Customs?
I think the Sea Customs of the Bombay Presidency are about
Twenty Lacs of Rupees, and the Transit Duties from Ten to
Fifteen, or thereabouts.
Do you conceive that the Transit Duties affect the Price of the
Articles upon which they are levied to a degree beyond the
Amount of the Duty itself?
Some Increase of Price must be occasioned by the Loss of Time
occasioned by Detention.
Are the Transit Duties collected within our own Territories, or
merely on the Passage through our Territories to the Territories
of the Native Princes?
Are the Sea Customs charged on every Species of Produce and
Manufacture, whether British or Foreign; is it an universal
The Charges are different, I believe. Those on British Produce
are regulated by Act of Parliament, and those on other Produce
by the Regulations of the local Government.
Do the Transit Duties apply to the same Articles exactly?
They apply to many Articles not imported by Sea. I rather
think the Payment of Sea Duties exempts the Goods from the
subsequent Payment of Transit Duties; but I am not positive.
Do you conceive, that if the Transit Duty was commuted for
an Addition to the Sea Duty the Articles would come to the
Consumer at as a low a Rate as they do now under the Two
The Articles imported by Sea would not; but many Articles
which now pay Transit Duty would, no doubt.
What is the general Proportion of the Land Assessment to the
That is extremely uncertain; but it is generally reckoned at
from One Third to One Half; seldom, I believe, so much in reality
as One Half.
Would the Condition of the People in general be improved if
the Land Assessment were substantially reduced to a lower Proportion?
It certainly would.
Would such an Improvement in their Condition give them
increased Means of purchasing such Articles as those upon which
the Sea Customs are now levied?
It no doubt would give them the Means; but I doubt whether
those are the Articles on which they would first expend any
Addition to their Incomes which they acquired.
Upon what Articles do you think they would expend those
More probably on the domestic Productions which they are now
in the habit of consuming than on Foreign Imports. The Benefit
would chiefly be derived by the Poor, who would consume more
Grain and wear more Clothes than they do at present.
Would not that general Improvement of the Country tend
ultimately to a greater Consumption of Articles imported from
No doubt it would.
Would not in that Case the Sea Customs bear a moderate
Increase of Duty?
They clearly would bear an Increase in case of such an Improvement as is supposed.
You stated that you conceived it would be advantageous if
greater Facilities were given to the Residence in India of Persons
possessing Capital, provided the Power of Removal were still
I think too much Facility cannot be given to the Settlement of
Capitalists in India.
What are the Rules by which the Grant of such Facilities is
I have not the Means of answering that Question. They are
granted in England by the Court of Directors and the Board of
You think that an Extension of the Facility is desirable?
I am not aware what Facilities are at present afforded, or
whether the Number of the Capitalists who go to India is limited
by the Difficulty of obtaining Permission.
Does it require the Permission of the Governor of the Presidency
to enable such a Person to reside at any Distance from the
I believe it does. My Difficulty in answering the Question is
occasioned by my not being able to distinguish in my Memory
between the Cases of Persons who have obtained the Permission of
the Court of Directors to reside in India, and those who have not.
Persons that have not the Permission of the Court of Directors are
frequently allowed to reside at the Presidencies without being
questioned; but the greatest Difficulty is made in permitting them
to go into the Interior. There are however but few Europeans
residing in the Interior of the Provinces under Bombay.
What particular Articles of Produce might be extended by a
greater Application of Capital?
I am not very capable of answering that Question; but Sugar
and Cotton occur to me.
There is not much Silk produced under Bombay at present, but
I think that it might. Some was produced in the Southern Mahratta
Country, owing to the Exertions of the Gentleman who was
One of your Answers seemed to imply that Redress of Injuries
by one Native against another was more easy than by a Native
against a European; is that the Meaning you wish to express?
Will you state to what Extent and in what Manner a Protection
exists to a European that does not to a Native?
In serious Matters no Redress can be obtained from a European
by a Native, except by Application to the Supreme Court at the
To what degree are Proceedings in such Cases more tedious or
They are more tedious and expensive, in the first place, owing
to the Distance. I am not able to speak precisely to the additional
Expence or Delay, from the different Nature of the Proceedings,
but I should think it was considerable.
To a Native residing at a Distance from the Presidency, is such
It is certainly not unattainable if he has the Means of proceeding
to the Presidency, or of employing some Person there; but to a
poor Man it is.
Where in any Case the Government has Reason, from Information it has received, to believe that any European Functionary has
misconducted himself to any Native, is it not the Practice to institute a Commission of Inquiry, for the Purpose of ascertaining the
And in the event of the Fact being proved, would not the Person
so convicted be punished by Deprivation of Office or Dismissal
from the Service?
Yes, he certainly would; and probably be prosecuted in the
Supreme Court also.
This Partiality of the Law, if it may be so called, applies not to
Functionaries only, but to European Residents?
Yes, it does.
Is Redress more easy to a European against a Native than to a
Native against a European?
It certainly is. None of the Difficulties to which I have referred
exist in the case of a Native. There is more Facility, as far as
mere Regulation goes, in complaining against a Functionary than
against a private European.
Will you state the different Circumstances under which they are
placed by the Regulation?
There are particular Tribunals established throughout the Country to which Complaints may be addressed against Functionaries;
and in those Cases, as well as in case of Crimes by Europeans, the
Tribunals in the Country have the Means of forwarding a Notification of them to the Presidency; but I am not aware that there is
any such Provision for punishing Complaints in Civil Matters.
Would there be any Objection to making Europeans residing
in a distant Part of the Provinces, who were not in the Service of
the Company, subject to the Jurisdiction of the European Magistrates?
I think there would be an Objection to their being entirely subjected to the local Tribunals, because the Law which is administered
in the Provinces would not be always suitable to them, and the
Complaints which they would in consequence make would probably
lead in Time to the Alteration of that Law in a Manner not suited
to the Natives. For example, it might be considered oppressive to
try a European in a Capital Case without a Jury; while it might
not be reckoned expedient that the Use of Juries should be extended
in such Cases to Natives. There must be many similar Points in
which a Prejudice would be created by applying the Laws in the
Provinces to Europeans.
Is not that contingent Inconvenience a less Evil than that which
subsists at present, which appears to be in many Instances a Denial
of Justice to the Natives?
I do not think it is. The Europeans are subjected, to a certain
Extent, to the local Tribunals; and their Number is not at present
so considerable as to create any considerable Inconvenience from
the Cases in which they are not.
Upon what Articles are the Transit Duties taken?
On a great Variety of Articles. I am not able to specify them.
Have Licences that have been granted to Europeans to reside at
a Distance from the Presidency been in many Instances revoked or
I do not recollect any Instance under Bombay where they have
been revoked. They have frequently been refused to Europeans
residing at the Presidency, without a Licence from the Court of
Is there any Principle by which you are guided in refusing or
I do not at this Moment recollect any being refused, except to
Persons who had not Permission from the Court of Directors to
Have they ever been granted to Persons of that Description?
They have in One or Two Instances been granted, on another
Person becoming reponsible for their receiving Permission within a
The Principle is not to give Permission unless they have that
Is it a Matter of Course to grant such Licence on their being
able to obtain a Person to be so responsible?
By no means a Matter of Course; the Government departs from
its strict Line of Duty in granting a Permission at all to a Person
who has not the Permission of the Court of Directors to reside in
It reports immediately to the Court of Directors every such Permission as soon as it is granted?
Have many Applications been made for such Licences?
There have not; the Number of Europeans residing in the Provinces under Bombay is very small.
Is the Governor's Licence to a particular Place, or merely for
Permission to reside at a Distance from the Presidency?
I believe for a particular Place; but I should think there would
be no Difficulty in a Person who had a Licence for one Place obtaining a Passport for another.
What is the Description of Europeans who have been at Bombay
without the Licence of The East India Company?
All Descriptions of Persons.
Have there been any Persons of Capital?
I should not think there have.
Any Persons connected with any Mercantile Concerns?
I really cannot answer. At the Presidency little Distinction is
made between those who have and those who have not a Licence;
but I should think that few would be there without a Licence,
except Persons who had made up their Minds on the Voyage to
remain, or Deserters from Ships, or Persons that knew it would be
impossible to get a Licence in England.
How are the Half caste Persons considered in Bombay; are they
considered to be Natives?
They are Natives in the Eye of the Law; Europeans in the Eyes
Are they employed in any Offices under the Government?
They are very much employed as Clerks in all the Public
Do they hold the Rank of Non-commissioned Officers in the
No; I do not know any Instance.
Or in the Marine Department?
I rather think there are in the Marine Department. They are
eligible to all Employments held by Natives; but I do not know
that they are much employed in them. The Government would
probably be very jealous of a general Employment of them, from a
Fear of supplanting the Natives.
That would exclude them from the Army and Navy?
They are excluded from the Situation of Officers in the Army or
May they serve as Privates?
I presume they may. I must observe, the Half-castes in Bombay
are so very few, that they probably would not occupy many more
of the Offices than they do if there were no Restrictions. I do not
think there are more than One or Two Thousand.
Is the Education of Half-castes particularly attended to?
There is no public Establishment for educating them. There are
many Schools where they are educated at the Expence of their
Parents; but at Bombay there is no Public Establishment. There
is a very considerable Establishment at Bombay for the Education
of Half-castes, but it is carried on by a Subscription, and only
assisted by Government.
Are the Half-castes a superior Race to the Natives in point of
Intelligence or any other Quality?
They partake partly of the Native and partly of the European
Are they not principally of Portuguese Blood?
I do not mean to include them under the Term of Half-castes.
Are the Portuguese numerous?
They may amount to about 50,000. They are partly Descendants of Portuguese, and partly Converts from the Religions of
the Country, who have assumed Portuguese Names, but retain in
fact the Manners, and in a great measure the Religion, of their
Are they a very debased Race?
Those about the Towns are very little esteemed. In the Country,
probably, they more resemble the Hindoo Ryots.
Are there any considerable Mercantile Houses carried on by
There are One or Two.
Are the other Half-castes you have alluded to respected by the
As far as they make a Distinction between them and Europeans,
I should think it was certainly to the Disadvantage of the Halfcaste.
As far as they make a Distinction between themselves and the
Half-caste, how is it?
I should think it was to the Disadvantage of the Half-castes, and
even of the lower Orders of Europeans, in many respects.
Are you aware that The East India Company have made great
Efforts to diminish the Charges of their Government in Bombay?
They have to my Knowledge made very great Efforts to diminish
the Charges of their Government.
Have those Exertions been attended with a Success corresponding
to their Wishes?
Very great Reductions were made.
Is not the Collection of the Revenue in India unavoidably a very
It is certainly very expensive; but I do not know how far it is
expensive, as compared with the Collection of the Revenue in
Does not the Nature of the Land Assessment make the Employment of a very great Variety of Officers peculiarly necessary?
A great Number of Officers are certainly necessary to collect
the Land Revenue; but I have not the Means of comparing it with
the Number of Officers employed in this Country, in collecting the
Excise, or the Revenue derived from any other Source.
Have the East India Directors also made great Exertions to
improve their Revenue?
They have, and in former Periods perhaps more than was advisable. Of late I think the Disposition has been very strong to
moderate the Revenue, as far as was compatible with the necessary
Expenditure of the Government.
Do you think the Revenue arising from a Land Assessment susceptible of much Improvement, under the existing System of
I conceive that it would be a very great Improvement if it were
fixed, or a Limit put to the Increase of it.
Do you conceive that the Ryots are in a Situation to lay out
much Capital in the Improvement of the Land?
The Ryots are generally not possessed of much Capital.
Do you think the System of Cultivation of the Land by them,
and under the Zemindars, has been much improved since the
Territory of Bombay came into the Possession of The East India
There are very few People under Bombay that can be called
Zemindars. The general Cultivation, even in the short Period
that most of the Territory has been under Bombay, has been very
greatly extended; but it has latterly received a severe Check from
the Fall of Prices arising from that rapid Extension of Cultivation
itself, as well as from other Causes.
Does the Amount of Land Assessment leave to the Cultivator
much Surplus of Income for the Maintenance of himself and his
Family in ordinary Seasons?
I think it was conjectured in the Deccan, which is more heavily
assessed than most of the Provinces under Bombay, that it left
about Sixty in the Hundred for the Expences of Cultivation and
the Maintenance of himself and Family.
Do you conceive that the Cultivators are now subject to heavy
Exactions on the Part of the Officers of the Revenue?
I do not conceive that they are; though there must be many
Instances, no doubt, of Corruption and Embezzlement on the Part
of the Native Officers of Government.
Do you think that any attainable degree of Vigilance could
check those Abuses under such a System of Cultivation, under
poor Occupiers, as is now pursued?
I think if the Revenue were once fixed there would be very little
Opening for Corruption or Abuse; if every Man knew what he
had to pay every Year, and that it was neither subject to Increase
Have you not Reason to think that now, in many Instances, the
slender Means of the Ryot render him unable to resist the unjust
Demands of the Revenue Officers, or to carry an Appeal to a
Court of Justice?
I conceive that to be less the Case in Bombay than in any other
Part of India. The Districts are small there, and the Provision
for the Administration of Justice is very ample. In new and unsettled Districts, where great Power is still left in the Hands of the
Collector and his Establishment, there must be a greater Opening
to Abuses of that Nature than in those into which the usual Checks
have been more fully introduced.
Are you of Opinion that the Ryot System, accompanied as it is
with so heavy a Land Assessment, has had a Tendency to keep the
Mass of the Population in a degraded State?
I do not perceive that in Places where the Collection is made
from the individual Ryots the People are in a more degraded
Situation than in the other Parts of the Country.
Is it not usual under the Hindoo Law to subdivide the Possessions
of Families among the Children?
It is usual.
Do not you think that has a direct Tendency to increase the
Poverty of the Mass of the Population?
It must prevent the Accumulation of Property.
Do not you therefore think that the Land Assessment operating
upon such a System as now exists in India has a Tendency to
reduce the Mass of the Natives to that Level which, in your
Evidence of Yesterday, you conceived to be one of the bad Effects
which have resulted from Foreign Dominion?
I do not conceive that the Land Assessment has that Effect.
The Land Assessment may be laid on great Proprietors as well as
Does it not actually fall, in a very great Number of Cases, on
very small Proprietors?
The Number of large Landed Proprietors under Bombay is
certainly small, but it frequently falls on the Heads of Villages,
who are comparatively Persons of Property; and even in Cases
where it falls on an individual Ryot, I am by no means certain that
it prevents the Accumulation of Property by the Ryots.
Does not it fall on a considerable Number who are unable, from
the large Amount of Assessment to which they are subject, to
improve the Cultivation of their Lands, and therefore to improve
When the Assessment is too heavy, it must no doubt prevent
the Improvement of the Country and the Condition of the People,
whether it is levied from great Proprietors or from individual
Ryots; but no doubt, where there are large Properties in the
Hands of great Proprietors, there is more likely to be an Accumulation of Capital with which further Improvements may be carried
Have you Reason to think that such Improvements have
been made in Cases where large Estates are possessed by
No, I cannot say that I have. The Part of the Bombay Territory which is in the Hands of great Proprietors is the least
prosperous of the whole Establishment.
In what Situations are the Native Officers generally employed
now in Bombay?
They are employed in all the subordinate Offices of the Judicial
and Revenue Departments.
In those Situations, do you not think, that from the Nature
of the Financial System now pursued they are subject to great
Temptations to commit Fraud and to be guilty of Exactions?
The System which is now pursued is designed as much as possible
to prevent their being exposed to such Temptation.
Do you not think, notwithstanding that, that they are very much
subject to such Temptations; and that considerable Abuses of
that kind do still exist?
Their Morality is rather loose, especially in Matters connected
with Public Money; but I do not conceive that the Abuses which
exist are by any means to be ascribed to the System.
Are you not of Opinion that the Diffusion of a Foreign Capital,
under such Restrictions as you alluded to Yesterday, would, by
leading to an improved Cultivation of Land, very much facilitate
the Collection of Revenue?
All extensive Improvements must facilitate the Collection of
Do you not think that an increased Employment of European
Capital upon the Improvement of Land would unavoidably lead
to the Creation of Employments in which the Natives might be
The Employment of European Capital is extremely likely to
lead to such a Result; not perhaps the Employment on Land so
much as on any other Object.
Do you not therefore think that such Employment would produce very considerable Advantage to the Native Character, by
affording to them Opportunities of arriving at Situations of Confidence and of Trust?
A greater Variety of Employments, and consequently a greater
Competition for Labour, would no doubt improve the Situation
of the Natives, and ultimately their Character; but I am by no
Means prepared to say that such an Influx of European Capital is
likely to occur as would produce such an Effect. I have all along
spoken under the Supposition of an actual Influx of European
Are you not of Opinion that the Private Trader has a direct
Interest in acting in a kind and conciliatory Manner towards the
If he consults his true Interest, I have no doubt he has; but
I question whether any Trader, unless he is one of a superior
Description, would look beyond the Advantage of his present
Do you not think that a Person who from his Situation was
more dependent on such Conduct, in order to recommend himself
to the Natives, than a Person who was armed with the Power of
the Company, would feel it to be more his immediate Interest to
consult the Feelings and Dispositions of the Inhabitants?
The more a Person felt himself dependent on the Good-will of
the Inhabitants, the more likely he would no doubt be to conciliate
Would not such be unavoidably the Situation of a Private
Merchant, as compared with the Situation of a Servant or Agent
of the Company?
I do not immediately perceive that it would. A Public Servant
has many Motives for conciliating the Good-will of the People
that are placed under him, which I do not conceive any individual
Trader would have.
Are not the Wishes of the Company usually received by the
People as a sort of Law?
The Wishes of the Company are never made known to the
People, except in the Form of Laws.
There is not therefore the same Opportunity, or the same
Inducement, to consult the individual Feelings of the Inhabitants,
in the case of Agents of the Company, as in the Case of Private
Your Lordship perhaps speaks of the Commercial Agents of
the Company. The Commercial Agents of the Company have no
Authority whatever beyond that of a Private Trader.
Have you Reason to think that the Attachment to Caste, that
prevails amongst the Hindoos, is as strong in Commercial Towns
as in the Country Districts?
I should think it was.
You do not observe any Difference in that respect from increased
Intercourse with Europeans?
An increased Intercourse with Europeans has a Tendency
to weaken the Prejudices of Natives, but I cannot say that I
saw it had any Effect in diminishing their Attachment for
Are you aware that the Excess of Charge above the Revenue
in Bombay is greater than in any of the other Presidencies?
It used to be very much greater.
In fact, the whole Deficiency of Income of our Territories
in India is almost entirely referrable to the Presidency of
I was not aware of that. But at one Period almost the whole
of the Expenditure at Bombay formed a Deficit; there was hardly
any Revenue; there never was any Proportion between the Revenue
and Expenditure of Bombay.
Can you state to what Causes it is to be referred that the
Excess of Charge above Income in the Years 1825, 1826 and
1827 is much greater than it was in the Years immediately
Partly to a Diminution of the Revenue, and partly to Increase
Do you ascribe the Diminution of Revenue to permanent Causes,
or only to those which are temporary?
Except in the Cessation of the Profits from Opium, I consider
the Diminution of Revenue to be temporary. The Expence I
conceive to be partly permanent and partly temporary.
Can you state what Parts are temporary and what permanent?
There was an Addition made to the Allowances of the Civil
Servants by Orders from Home, which, although it did not bring
them to a Level with the other Establishments, considerably
increased the Expence. Some Addition was made to the Military
Force during the same Period, which I believe is permanent; and
several Expeditions were undertaken or projected, which must
be considered as temporary. But I speak without a very distinct
Recollection of the Causes that affected the particular Years in
question; I do not recollect the Circumstances of those particular
Years. But on our taking Possession of the Deccan in 1819 a
great Encouragement was held out to Agriculture, and many
other Employments were closed against the People of the Country;
a great Increase of Cultivation took place in consequence. At
the same Time the Destruction of the Power of the Pindarrees
also increased the Cultivation of the Country under the Native
Princes in the Neighbourhood. This was followed by a great Fall
of Prices, and, ultimately, by a great Diminution of Revenue.
There was one Year a Failure of the Rains in most of the Provinces under Bombay, which almost threatened a Famine, and must
have occasioned a great Reduction of Revenue, I conceive, though
I do not recollect that it did.
Can you hold out a Prospect at any future Period, and at no
great Distance, of the Amount of the Revenue approaching more
nearly to the Amount of the Charge?
As the Country improves it will probably approach more near
to it; but there never was any sort of Proportion between the
Amount of Revenue and the Amount of Charge. The Charges of
Bombay were incurred for general Purposes, and bore a considerable Proportion to what they are now when we had little
beyond the Island of Bombay.
Are you aware of a great Increase of Deficiency having occurred
unexpectedly in the course of the last Year?
I have heard that a Deficiency has occurred; I can hardly say
To what Cause is that to be attributed?
I speak entirely in the Dark; but a Survey was in progress for
the Purpose of reducing the Assessment, and perhaps a Reduction
may have been made in consequence of the Survey, or from Considerations such as would have influenced the Survey.
When you left Bombay, had you Reason to anticipate a still
further Decrease of Revenue?
No further Decrease of Revenue than was intended to be made
by the Survey.
The greatest Part of the Marine Charge of India is borne by
the Presidency of Bombay, is it not?
I believe the whole.
The Army of Bombay is necessarily proportioned, not to the
Population of the Bombay Territory which it may be necessary to
controul, but to the Circumstances of the Native States by which
the Bombay Territory is surrounded, and to the Circumstance of
its being a Frontier?
Certainly. I think the Additions made to the Bombay Army,
since the great Extension of our Territory in that Quarter, have
not borne any Proportion to that Extension.
Can you state what Proportion the Military and Marine
Expences of Bombay bear to the Total Revenue?
From the Accounts on the Table, the Proportion they appear to
bear is from Seven Eighths to Eight Ninths.
Can you state what Proportion the same Expences bear to the
whole Revenue of Bengal?
From the same Paper I see that it is between One Third and
One Fourth. But I speak entirely from the Paper on the Table;
I have no personal Knowledge.
Was not a considerable Reduction of the Charges made before
you quitted the Government?
A very considerable Reduction.
Amongst the Resources of the Government which you enumerated
Yesterday, you mentioned the Town Duties; how are the Town
Duties usually applied in the Presidency of Bombay?
They are not, as is I believe the Case in Bengal, applied to
local Improvements; they are mixed up with the rest of the
Revenue of the Country.
Can you state whether any considerable Number of Weavers or
Manufacturers have been thrown out of Employment since the
Extension of Commercial Intercourse with India; since the Renewal
of the Charter in 1813?
I cannot say from my own Observation that they have, as the
Provinces under Bombay were not remarkable for that Description
of Manufactures; but I have no doubt, from the Extension of the
Use of European Manufactures among the middle Classes, that a
Number of Weavers must have been thrown out of Employment.
You stated Yesterday, that if any resident Europeans were
guilty of Oppression they might be sent out of the Country, or
transferred to some other District; might it not be dangerous to
allow a Person who had shewn a Disposition to Oppression to
remain any where in the Country?
That would depend on the degree of Oppression, and whether
it appeared to arise from any occasional Cause, or from one likely
to have a permanent Operation.
The Witness is directed to withdraw.
Ordered, That this Committee be adjourned to Tuesday next,