Affairs of the East India Company: Minutes of evidence, 01 July 1830

Die Jovis, 1 Julii 1830.

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The Lord President in the Chair.

Mr. Richard Shaw is called in, and examined as follows:

You are a Manufacturer of Bombasins and Camlets at Norwich, are you not?

I am, of both.

What is the Difference between them?

A Bombasin is made of Silk and Worsted, a Camlet of all Worsted.

Which Articles have you chiefly supplied The East India Company with?

They buy principally Camlets.

Has there been an Increase or a Decrease in the Quantity purchased by The East India Company during the last Twenty or Twenty-five Years?

I believe that there is a smaller Quantity ordered now than there was Twenty Years back; I can speak to the Trade for Eighteen or Nineteen Years, during which I have been in it for the Company.

To what Extent has there been a Decrease during that Period?

I think from Three to Five thousand Pieces a Year. Formerly the Company's Order was from Fifteen to Eighteen thousand Pieces a Year; for the last Eight or Ten Years, there has been only Twelve thousand each Year, except One Year, when there were Fifteen thousand.

Is the Manner of Purchase by Tender?

Yes.

Is the lowest Tender invariably accepted?

That I am not able to say; we very seldom know each others Tenders. They are not bound to take the lowest Offer. I can shew One of the Circulars if it is desired.

The Witness produces the same, and it is read, and is as follows:

CAMLETS for CHINA, 1830-31.

East India House, 28th Oct. 1829.

Sir,

I AM ordered by the Committee of Buying and Warehouses of The East India Company to acquaint you, that the Committee will be ready on Wednesday the 18th November 1829, at Eleven o'Clock precisely, to consider Tenders (sealed up) for supplying the Company with Twelve thousand Pieces of Camlets, upon the following Conditions and Stipulations, viz.

2. The Camlets are to be of the following Rates, Weights and Dimensions; viz.

3. Every Camlet must measure 55 Yards in Length, of 37 Inches to the Yard, and be full 30 Inches in Width; the Selvages are to be without Stripes, and every Piece must have Two Roses at each End, with the Manufacturer's Name or Mark inserted at One End.

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4. The Goods are to be boiled, so as to render them soft and pliable; and they are to be well finished in every respect. The Threads of the Camlets must be round and even, and the Texture of the Weaving close. The Colours must be sound and brilliant, free from Cloudiness, and correctly match the Company's Patterns, to which the most scrupulous Conformity will be required.

5. The Camlets are to be forwarded made up on Boards exactly 16 Inches wide; the Boards must be free from Turpentine, well planed and papered all over; all Folds in the Goods must be avoided, and they are to have the Ends slightly tacked, in order to keep them smooth.

6. The Tenders must express a separate Price for Camlets of each Quality and Colour, as the Committee will not engage to take the whole Quantity which any Manufacturer may offer at an Aggregate or Average Price, but will buy such respective Colours and Quantities as may be tendered at the cheapest Rates. Every Manufacturer must consequently offer so many Blacks, so many Purples, &c., at a separate Price for each; the Committee having the Option of taking all or any Portion of the Colours.

7. The Deliveries are to commence on the 1st of March 1830, and end on the 31st of December 1830, in Ten equal Monthly Proportions. No Charge to be made for Carriage to London, nor for Cartage to the Warehouse.

8. The Opinion of the Company's Overlookers as to the Quality and Colour of the Goods shall be final; and the Overlookers shall be at liberty, should they see it proper, to cut off One of the Roses of any of the Camlets which they may reject, in order to prevent such Camlets from being again sent into the Company's Warehouse for Re-inspection; and the Committee desire it to be most distinctly understood, that they will not enter into any Discussion upon the Merits of Camlets which the Overlookers may reject or may pass at Abatements.

9. An Abatement of Five or Ten Shillings will be made upon any Piece which may be found slightly defective in Quality, Colour or in any other Particular; but any Camlets which in the Opinion of the Overlookers are unfit to be passed will be peremptorily rejected, and must be immediately replaced with approved Goods; but in case of a large Proportion being objectionable, it shall be at the Option of the Company to return the whole Parcel, nor will they be received at the End of the Season at a reduced Price, as has sometimes been the Practice.

10. The Wrappers and Packing Materials of every Description (except the Boards upon which the Camlets are made up) will be returned direct to the Manufacturers, unless used up in packing the returned Camlets, for which the Overlookers are to receive Sixpence, and no more, for each Camlet.

11. Payment for the March Delivery will be made on the first Thursday in May 1830, provided the Goods shall have been duly delivered within the Time fixed, and so on for each Monthly Delivery; but all Payments will be withheld from Persons who may be in arrear with their Monthly Deliveries, until such Arrears shall be made good. The usual Office Fee of One Shilling upon each Camlet passed to Account will be deducted from the Amount of each Bill of Parcels.

12. All Tenders must be delivered at the Office of the Committee of Buying and Warehouses, in The East India House, before Eleven of the Clock on Wednesday the 18th November 1829. Many Persons not having been careful to send in their Offers at or before the Time appointed, it is positively ordered that no Tender be received after the above-mentioned Day and Hour; and this will be strictly observed by the Committee.

13. All Goods which may be delivered in consequence of the present Circular will lie at the Company's Risk in case of the Calamity of Fire.

14. The Committee reserve to themselves the Right to reject any Proposals which they may deem to be unreasonable, although such Proposals may appear to be the lowest and most advantageous which may be offered.

15. The accompanying Form must be adhered to, for which Purpose you will please to copy the printed Letter, and fill up the Blanks, and sign the same, and by no means substitute any other Form of Tender. You will please to write on the Cover of your Letter "Tender for Camlets."

16. The Camlets now wanted, provided the Prices required shall be approved by the Committee, are as follows:

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I am, Sir, Your humble Servant,

Wm SIMONS.

All Persons making Tenders are required to insert their Place of Residence at length; if in London, the Street must be named; and if in the Country, the next Post Town must be also specified, unless the Place, itself be a Post Town, in which Case the Parties will notice that Particular.

To the Honourable Committee of Buying and Warehouses of The East India Company.

Honourable Sirs,

We hereby offer to supply The East India Company with the under-mentioned Camlets, or any Part thereof, at the Prices set against the same; to be subject to the Conditions and Stipulations contained in your Letter dated the 28th October 1829.

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We are, Honourable Sirs, Your humble Servants,

Dated at this November 1829.

13 Q

Is the Quantity of Goods that is rejected by the Company considerable?

Very considerable.

What is the Nature of the Inspection to which the Goods are subjected on Delivery-is that Inspection carried on with Fairness and with Discrimination?

Certainly not; I offered to prove that last Year, but the Committee would not hear me.

What Committee?

The Committee for Buying at The East India House.

In what Particular do you consider their Mode of Inspection defective?

I have had many Hundreds of Pieces returned which were from Five to Ten per Cent. better than the Patterns given me to work by.

Have you known any Instances in which Goods have been returned by the Company without any obvious Fault?

Yes, many Instances of it.

Have you ever known those same Goods at a subsequent Period passed?

Yes; about last May and June I received back a great Quantity of Goods which I knew had never been taken off the Boards, nor ever examined; I dressed them again, and sent them back without any Alteration, and a great many of them passed, and at the full Prices.

Have they always the same Examiner?

There are Three Gentlemen overlook them.

The Goods the second Time may have been before a different Examiner?

That I cannot speak to.

Have you had any Opportunity of knowing whether those Examiners, who have rejected the Goods in the first instance, have been long in the Employment of The East India Company?

Two of them a considerable Time longer than I have been a Manufacturer for them; the other has been appointed since-I think some Seven or Eight Years since. One of them, I think, has been there these Forty Years.

Are Camlets always delivered to the Company in a dyed State.

Yes; in a dyed State; different Colours, according to their Order.

Is there any Demand for Camlets for the Private Trade?

There is a Demand for what we call a Private Trade-a Trade conducted by the Americans chiefly.

Is that Demand on the Increase or the Decline?

I think on the Increase very much.

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During what Period has it been so?

In 1821 the Increase began to be very much; and from that Time I believe it has increased yearly.

What is the comparative Quality, Length, Breadth, Fineness and Weight of the Camlets that are intended for the last-named Trade, compared with The East India Company's Camlets?

I know of no Difference; I have always made them alike; the same for the Private Trade as for the Company's Trade; and indeed, when I made the Camlets, I did not know whether they would be for the Company's or the Private Trade. They are always made in a White State; and I make a Stock ready; and if I take an Order for the Company, I dye them for the Company. The Goods are quite equal.

Have you Reason to think that in point of fact the Goods purchased by the Private Merchants are chiefly such as have been rejected by the Company?

Certainly not; not One Tenth of what the Private Trade take have been rejected by the Company.

Do you receive exactly the same Price from the Private Merchant and the Company for the same Goods?

We make the best Bargain we can; provided we have a few Returns in the House, we sell them somewhat cheaper; and I had rather always take an Order from the Private Trade than for the Company, we are subject to so many Deductions and Returns.

What does the Difference amount to?

From Five to Seven and a Half per Cent.

On the whole Account?

Yes; the Deductions last Year from my Order for the Company were £1,231 10s. or thereabouts; the Expences upon the Returns, meaning Carriage, &c. from London to Norwich, £366; the Fees that I paid the Company were £542.

Of what Nature are the Fees?

There is a Shilling a Piece deducted for Office Fee, and we pay Sixpence per Piece for the rejected Camlets, for the packing for returning.

Is that Sum of £542 the Fee you paid for the whole you furnished?

Yes.

How many Pieces were rejected?

I am not able to say that exactly; I should think from 4,500 to 5,000 Pieces - better than 4,000 Pieces, certainly.

Although the rejected Pieces form but a small Proportion of the Quantity that is supplied to the Private Traders, in point of fact have such Pieces been frequently sold to the Private Merchants, and have they been exported by them to Advantage?

Certainly.

Is there any Variation in the Colour of the Goods that are ordered by the Private Merchants and those that are ordered by the Company?

Very little indeed; there is one Colour which the Company order, what they call Light Blues; the Private Trade order Middle Blues, meaning a little darker in the Colour only.

Do you think, from the degree in which the Manufacturers are exposed to Loss and Vexation by the Rejection of their Goods by the Company, that the Private Merchant might buy on equally favourable or more advantageous Terms than the Company?

Certainly.

When you ask that additional Price of Five or Seven and a Half per Cent. from the Company, in consequence of the Power of Rejection which is stipulated for, do you calculate likewise on what you pay in Fees to them?

We calculate every thing; we are obliged to do so.

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That covers the probable Difference between selling to them and to others?

Yes.

What is the Value of a Piece of Camlet at the present Moment?

According to the different Colours; I should think the Blacks are 76s. or 78s. per Piece.

Upon that you pay 1s. as Office Fee?

Yes, we do; then the Overlookers have the Liberty, if they think a Piece a little inferior in Quality, of deducting Five or Ten Shillings from the Price agreed by the Company. If I make my Contract at 76s. or 78s. for Blacks, if the Overlookers consider a Piece inferior in Quality Five or Ten Shillings, they will deduct Five or Ten Shillings from that Piece.

They tell you you must take it back again, unless you deduct that Amount?

No; they have the Authority of deducting it themselves.

If the Pieces are still worse, they then reject them?

Yes.

Do you furnish other Goods instead of them?

In many Instances the same Pieces again, and they will pass.

Do you pay the same Fee upon them again?

No; there is no Fee unless they pass, and Sixpence for the repacking of those which are returned.

Are there any Instances of the Company defacing or marking Goods that have been offered to them, in a way which shews they have been offered to them, and rejected?

Every Piece of Goods which is dyed for the Company have what is called Two Roses marked at each End; the Company, from their Circular and the Contract they make, have the Liberty of cutting One of those Marks off, which never can be put on again, which injures the Piece very much.

Do they often do that?

I had many Hundreds lost last Year.

Have you found that always makes the Piece very unsaleable, except at a great Diminution of Price?

Certainly.

Have you found that such Goods have been purchased by the Americans?

Yes, and others.

What Proportion do you conceive such Pieces bear to the whole Number that are supplied to the Americans?

Not One Tenth Part.

Have you yourself been much in the habit of selling Manufactured Articles to the Americans?

I think from 1821 up to 1828 I did Nine Tenths of all the Private Trade which went from England. It was in 1821 the Private Trade began to increase very much; and from that Time up to 1828 I think I may say I did Nine Tenths of all the Private Trade in that Article for the American Trade to China.

Have you found them in general as attentive to the Quality of the Goods which they purchased as The East India Company?

I never sent any in or completed an Order without their being inspected by some Overlooker in London.

They purchase through English Agents, do they not?

One or Two of them; there are One or Two American Gentlemen give me Orders, and they order the Goods to be sent to their Packers to be overlooked.

Are there any other Circumstances besides those you have mentioned, which lead you to think that The East India Company purchased their Goods at a much dearer Rate than the Private Merchants?

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No, I do not know any other Circumstances than those I have stated; we are always obliged to guard against Deductions, Five and Ten Shillings a Piece, which we are subject to, and for the Returns for which we are obliged to make our Prices to the Company higher than they otherwise would be.

You stated that there had been a Diminution in the Demand of The East India Company of late Years; have you ever received from them any Complaint as to the Quality of Goods which you have supplied, which could at all account for that Diminution?

Never.

The Company rejecting so many Pieces, and the Private Merchants rejecting very few, do you apprehend that what remain to the Company would sell at a higher Price than those purchased by the Private Merchant; that they are really better?

So trifling, that none but a good Judge can know; for a Camlet is an Article which has been made such a Number of Years, and we have such specific Directions how many Threads to the Inch, and how many Shoots across, and so on; if One Piece is not so good as another, it is by a Journeyman not making it so well.

What has been the Reduction in the Price of Camlets during the last Ten Years?

I have had 140 Shillings for the Double Camlets, and now we are making them at 78, and as low as 76.

To what Circumstances do you attribute the Reduction of Price?

The better Methods of making the Yarns, Twenty Years ago we were obliged to use Handspun Yarns; now the Mills will spin the Yarns with greater Facility, and much cheaper than they were then.

Is that the sole Cause of the Reduction of Price?

No; I believe Wool is much cheaper.

How far does the Reduction in the Price of Wool enter into the Reduction in the Price of Camlets?

It all depends on the Difference of the Price of Wools; if it is Three-pence a Pound, it makes a Difference of Five Shillings on a Piece of Camlets; but every thing is cheaper; we formerly paid Double the Price for dyeing which we now do. The Price of dyeing Materials and the Labour of dyeing is all down.

Can you specify the Portion of the Reduction of Price which is to be attributed to each of the several Circumstances you have mentioned, and to any others you have not yet adverted to; can you say how much is to be attributed to the Introduction of Machinery, how much to the Fall in the Price of Wool, how much to the Fall in the Price of dyeing Materials, and so on?

I am not able to say that exactly.

Can you make out such an Account?

The dyeing, I think, makes a Difference of Ten Shillings a Piece less than it was Ten Years back, in some Colours; not in Blacks.

How far does any Diminution in the Price of Labour enter into the Comparison?

The Labour is now as high as it was; it has never been lessened at all for weaving.

Do you look forward to any further Diminution in the Price of Camlets?

I do not think it likely at the present Moment; the Price must be increased, for Wool is getting up. Wool has risen within this last Two or Three Months.

How much?

I think about Five per Cent.

Are they made upon Long or Short Wool?

Long Wool.

Do you consider the Quality of the Camlet equal to that it was Ten Years ago?

Better.

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So that a better Article is furnished at a much lower Price?

Yes; at a little more than Half the Price.

At what do you reckon the Improvement in the intrinsic Value of the Article?

I think more than Five per Cent. but where there is a Quantity of Pieces made, there will be Five per Cent. Difference only in Workmanship of different Weavers.

Do you use nothing but Long Wool in the Manufacture?

Nothing but Long Wool; we cannot use Short Wool.

Have not you found that the decreased Price has led to an increased Demand for Goods?

I should think it has; in the Case of Bombasins and other Articles it has been so. I cannot account for the increased Demand for Camlets otherwise; it may be from the Difference in the Price.

How do you reconcile the Diminution of Demand on the Part of The East India Company with the increased Demand on the Part of the Americans?

I am not able to answer that Question; I suppose the Company find Things that pay them better than Camlets, or they would send more of them.

Have you any Opportunity of knowing whether the Diminution of Demand on the Part of The East India Company is owing to the Manufacture of Woollen Articles on the Continent for that Market?

I am not able to say a Word, except as to my own Manufactures. I have no Knowledge of any thing else.

As your Dealings with the Americans have been free from some of the Inconveniences to which you have been subject in your Contracts with The East India Directors, do you upon the whole prefer them as Purchasers to The East India Company?

Certainly.

Are there more Camlet Weavers now than you can find Employment for in the City of Norwich?

Yes, many more; there are a great many out of Employment at this present Moment.

Can you state at all what Proportion those out of Employment bear to those now in Employment?

I should think that One Third of the Camlet Weavers are out of Employment.

And yet the Wages of those in Employment are the same as they were Ten Years ago, the Price of Provision being so much cheaper?

Yes; the Prices have not been lowered, and I should think that they cannot be much lowered; it is a very laborious Employment.

What is the Average of their Earnings?

I should take the Average of their Earnings to be from Twelve to Fourteen Shillings a Week, from which there are some little Expences to pay.

Were there a great Number of them out of Employment Ten Years ago?

Yes.

Was there about the same Proportion?

Yes, I believe so; the Camlet has been chiefly made at Norwich this Year; the Yorkshire Manufacturers have got a Part of the Company's Order; they had a Part of the Order in 1826; they were not able to get through with it; and I completed the Order for them.

In what Part of Yorkshire?

I think it is at Halifax, or near.

In what Year had the Camlet Weavers full Employment?

In 1822. I was then obliged to teach a Number of Men; there were not Camlet Hands enough to complete the Company's Orders, and the Private Orders I then had, which were very large.

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Has there always been a Number of Manufacturers out of Employment except at that Time?

It is only a certain Number of Hands that can weave the Camlet; there are many Weavers in Norwich who cannot weave the Camlet. They must be strong Men; it is hard Work.

When they were in full Employment in 1822, what were their Wages?

They did not earn more Money; such Men as are at work can earn that I have stated, but there are a great many now who have no Work.

Have you any Reason to suppose that a Free Trade to China and the East Indies would increase the Trade in Camlets?

I cannot speak to that, except that the Private Trade has been increasing for some Years, and that if the English Gentlemen were enabled to go there I think there would be more Goods sent; I know some English Gentlemen who would be willing to send, but who are now obliged to send to Sincapore.

Have you sold many that you knew were going to Sincapore?

Yes, a great many Thousands.

Is that Trade increasing?

I think it is; it has increased within the last Year very much.

Do you know whether any Foreign Merchants, Dutch or others, export British Manufactures?

I believe they do. I have had One or Two Orders to go to Germany, which I understood were for the China Market.

Have you ever heard whether any Chinese Merchants themselves have sent any Orders to this Country for Goods?

I am not able altogether to speak to that Point further than this, that a Gentleman was in England some Four Months back, who gave me an Order for Two thousand Pieces of Camlets. It is for us to see how the Goods are to be paid for; he proposed to give me a Letter of Credit on a respectable House in London from one of the Hong Merchants, in Part Payment, and I understood from a Gentleman who ordered them, that the Camlets were for this Hong Merchant; I took that in Part Payment, and took the Acceptance of the Gentleman who gave me the Order at Eighteen Months, with a Lien on the Goods 'till the Money was paid.

Do you suppose that Order from the Hong Merchant to be the only one which has reached this Country?

I never heard of one before, nor never saw a Letter of Credit from a Hong Merchant before.

You satisfied yourself that that Letter of Credit was such as it was prudent to accept?

Yes, it would have been so here, but that the Exchange was against it.

Do you recollect the Name of the Hong Merchant?

I believe it was one of those that failed afterwards; but it was before his Failure, and I had a Lien on the Goods.

When was this Order given you?

I think in February last, and I completed it on the 10th of April; the Goods are gone.

You consider the Transaction as a perfectly safe one for yourself?

Certainly; I sent out the Letter of Credit through my Agent in London.

Were the Camlets you were desired to make for the Hong Merchant on his Account, directed to be of the same Quality and Appearance as those made for The East India Company?

My Contract was exactly the same for Quality, equal to The East India Company's tendered Patterns.

Are the Goods you manufacture for the Private Trade of the same Quality and Marks as The East India Company's Goods?

Exactly so, imitated in every respect.

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Do the Company and Private Merchants pay ready Money, or by Bills at a certain Date?

That depends on the Agreement; if we make an Agreement to take Bills, and I have taken many on respectable Houses in England, they add the Interest on the Bills. There are One or Two Houses I take a great deal of Money from, who will not permit a Bill to be drawn; if we cash it, we agree for the Credit, and discount it at once.

How do the Company pay?

We deliver the Goods monthly to the Company, which are looked over in March, and paid for in May.

Have you Reason to suppose that any other Hong or Chinese Merchants at Canton are likely to follow the Example of the Individual you have referred to?

I am not able to answer that Question.

Have you heard of any considerable Manufactories of Camlets on the Continent of Europe?

No; there is a Manufactory at or near Dresden, I believe, but they are a different kind of Manufacture; they are called Camlets, but they are what we call Mohair; they make about 7,000 Pieces a Year. The Mohair is purchased in England, and sent to Holland to be manufactured there.

Is there any Manufactory in Saxony of Camlet made of a finer Species of Wool than is manufactured at Norwich?

No; I have made the finest that ever were made, to be sent out as Presents to the Hong Merchants.

Do you happen to know whether there is much Interest felt at Norwich about opening the East India and China Trade?

I believe they would like to have it opened; I speak from the Opinion of a good many of them.

Has there been any Petition to Parliament from the Camlet Weavers on the Subject?

No.

How do you account for that?

I am not able to say, except that the Masters have not taken it up, and that the Journeymen dare not take it up without their Masters set the Example.

Do you think it is in part owing to the Masters being generally employed by The East India Company?

Certainly.

You think that, if they had not received Orders for manufactured Articles from the East India Directors, they would have petitioned?

I am not able to say that; but if the Masters had taken it up, there would have been the Signatures of all the Men.

Do you know whether, within the last Two Years, those Orders have been more distributed among all the Manufacturers than they were formerly?

It depended on the Tender; last Year I had an Order for 10,848 Pieces out of 12,000 myself; this Year it is distributed amongst them all.

Had it been usual before to distribute it among them all?

In 1824 I had 10,800 of them, and since that it has been distributed among the different Manufacturers 'till last Year, when I had the greatest Part of them again.

You have stated that there is a Manufactory at Dresden of Camlets; are they manufactured of Wool from this Country?

One Half is of Wool, I do not suppose from this Country, and the other Half of Mohair.

You stated that a Part of the Saxon Manufacture is of very fine Wool; that is the Wool of the Growth of that Country?

Yes.

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Have you used any New South Wales Wool in your Manufactures?

No, I never use Foreign Articles, except that sometimes we use the Merinos in making very fine Bombasins for Spain; it is chiefly Lincoln and Leicester for the Camlets.

Do you know any thing of the Manufacture of Shawls at Norwich?

Yes.

Has there been any large Number of them sent out to China?

Not a large Quantity; I should think there have been some sent out for the last Five or Six Years.

Do you think the Demand for them has increased of late Years?

I think it has.

That is, comparatively speaking, a new Manufacture at Norwich, is it not?

No; Fifteen Years back I did a great deal in the Shawl Trade; it has been going to Glasgow; the Scotch have got it principally now, but there are some still making at Norwich.

Are there any other Woollen Goods beside Camlets for which there is an increasing Demand at Norwich for the American Trade?

Yes; there is a Plaid made called the Scotch Plaid; there is occasionally a very great Demand for them in America.

Are there any other Woollen Goods manufactured at Norwich?

No, not of any Consequence.

Are Crapes Woollens?

Crapes are Wool one way, and Silk another.

Have any new Colours been introduced, or any new Combination of Colours, into the Manufacture of Camlets of late Years?

No, I think not; there are no more Colours now than there were. There have not been any Rose Pinks in the Company's Orders of late.

Do you ever adopt new Colours or Combinations of Colours on Speculation, or do you wait for an Order?

We always wait for an Order.

You never receive any Patterns of Foreign Camlets?

Never but once in my Life; that was a Colour they called the Esterhazy; they wished me to make Two or Three Pieces as Presents for the Hong Merchants.

The Witness is directed to withdraw.

Ordered, That this Committee be adjourned to Tuesday next, One o'Clock.