Affairs of the East India Company: Minutes of evidence, 06 July 1830

Die Martis, 6 Julii 1830.

[709]

The Lord President in the Chair.

Captain Richard Alsager is called in, and examined as follows:

What is your Profession?

A Sailor. I have been Nine Voyages as an Officer in the Company's Service, and Five as a Commander.

You have been Fourteen Voyages in all?

Yes; and One as a Midshipman also.

Were those Voyages all to China?

No; only Nine; Five as an Officer, and Four in command of the Waterloo, a Company's Ship of 1,325 Tons.

Did you rise to the Command of a Ship after Nine Voyages?

Yes, I did.

What are the Rules of Promotion in the Company's Merchant Service?

One entire Voyage to India before a Person can be sworn in as Fourth Mate, Two Voyages before he can be Third Officer, and One as Chief or Second, in all Four Voyages; that is the most rapid Rise which can take place in the Company's Freighted Service previous to obtaining a Command.

Is that what is called a Seniority Service?

No; the Company's own Service is a Seniority Service; not the Freighted.

In that Service you rose in Nine Voyages to the Situation of Commander?

I did.

What is your Remuneration as Commander?

The Allowance from the Company is 10l. a Month, and we are allowed 56 Tons of Privilege, and an Indulgence on what is called the Victualling Bill; that is, Room for Stores for the Commander's Table. The Commander victuals the Chief and Second Officers, the Surgeon and the Purser.

Do you mean 56 Tons out and Home?

Yes.

That is merely an Accommodation, not convertible into Money?

It is considered by the Company as an Indulgence, and supposed to remunerate the Commander for the Expence of victualling the Four Officers, which are ordered to be accommodated at his Table.

If you desired to sell your Tonnage out and home, what could you have got for it?

Within these Two Voyages a very small Sum; I can hardly say how much. I have merely heard of 30l. a Ton all round for the Commander's Privilege; but I never had any thing offered to myself, and I never knew of a Commander's Privilege being sold, except from Hearsay.

[710]

The inferior Officers sell their Privilege Tonnage, do they not?

As a Commander I have bought it, that they might pay more Attention to the Duties of the Ship, and I have given them a Sum that I did not expect to gain by, but that they should not be Losers for not trading.

What have you given?

I have given 40l. a Ton to India, China, and including the Voyage Home; but I have never made any thing by it myself.

What Outward Investment have you carried to China?

I have had the good Fortune to obtain Double Voyages the last Four as a Commander.

By Double, you mean a circuitous Voyage?

Yes.

What was your Investment to India?

It was a Variety of Staple Articles and Manufactured Piece Goods, and such a Variety I can hardly enumerate them.

What was your Investment from India to China?

Cotton chiefly.

Have you ever gone direct to China?

No, I have not, as a Commander.

Was the Cotton from India to China a profitable Investment?

One Voyage I lost Money, and a second it was not very profitable; the last Voyage it was profitable; the Cotton bore a good Price in the China Market.

What are your Homeward Investments?

Tea, Raw Silk and Nankeen.

In what Proportions did you invest in those Three Articles?

Tea is a bulky Article; we can invest only about 6,000l. in the Commander's Privilege, if he fills it entirely with Tea.

You prefer the less bulky and more valuable Article?

Yes; when our Funds are large in China, we are obliged to have recourse to them to get our Remittances home.

Did you invest largely in Silk?

About 7,000l;. the last Voyage.

How many Tons did that occupy?

About Seven Tons.

Was it a profitable Investment?

I made a very good Remittance; about 4s. 10d.

In what Year was that?

1826.

You mean that the Dollar was remitted at 4s. 10d.?

Yes; I reckoned it as 5s. in China; but 4s. 10d. was considered a good Remittance.

Was the Investment in Tea profitable?

After deducting the Expences and 25 per Cent. upon the gross Amount of Sales, it gave a Profit of about 1,500l. on 6,500l.

Was that greater than the Profit on the Silk?

Yes, greater.

Notwithstanding the Taxation of the 25 per Cent.?

Yes.

In order to compare that Profit with the Profit which could be made by an Individual, you would have to deduct the Charges of Freight both Ways?

[711]

In reckoning the Profit upon my Tea, I made no Charge for my own Privilege Tonnage, but only on that which I purchased from my Officers, and which I considered a fair Charge of Merchandize.

What was your Profit on that Portion of the Investment which was in the Tonnage of the Officers which you purchased?

None at all; I did not look for a Profit.

Upon the whole Speculation, what should you consider the Profit?

Taking the Voyage round, and paying all Expences 'till I came clear Home, about 5,000l. is, I think, a very fair Average Voyage; sometimes more, sometimes less.

What Per-centage would that make on the Capital invested?

My Capital was very large; 50,000 i.

In what Manner do you calculate your Profit made on the Two Transactions, that of the Outward Cargo and that of the Homeward Cargo; how do you compare your original Purchase Money in England with the Produce of your Investment when you arrive again in England?

We reckon the Voyage round, from the first Investment 'till it returns Home again, and is paid in as Cash in England.

You consider the whole as One Transaction?

Yes; because when we arrive in India we sell our Investments, reckoning the Rupee at 2s. 6d., (or Eight to the Pound Sterling,) and the Dollar at 5s. (or Four to the Pound Sterling;) they are not worth so much, but it simplifies the Transaction; consequently we stand with a larger nominal Capital in India and China than we really possess; therefore the net Profit can only be ascertained when the Capital is realized at the End of the Voyage in England.

With whom did you transact Business at Canton?

With Howqua, the first of the Security Merchants. He is a Man of large Property, and I have always been anxious to deal with him. The Commander whom I sailed under dealt with him, and Howqua considered me as an old Friend; he has always taken my Investment, so that I have had no Trouble.

Have any other Captains experienced any Trouble?

I have heard that several of them, to obtain a higher Profit, sold to the Outside Merchants; and they have had bad Teas in their Investments to England, and also found Difficulty in getting their Money for the Goods they sold.

Did you ever export to China British Manufactures?

In going circuitously I endeavoured to sell them in India as the first Market.

Did you ever purchase any at Sincapore, and take them on?

Never.

Was it the habit of any Captain to do so?

Not those I have known.

Were you enabled, during your Residence at Canton, to ascertain whether the Sale of British Manufactures there by individual Merchants was productive of Profit?

The Market lately, I think, has been a great deal glutted; and although English Goods have fallen in England, they have not produced an equivalent Profit in China, but have fallen in proportion in China to what they have done in England.

Have they fallen in the same Proportion?

[712]

I should think rather more; we are in China a very short Period, and we have no sooner delivered our Outward Cargo than we are under the Company's Orders to take in our Homeward Cargo; and we have not the Power which those in the Free Trade have of staying as long as suits them: we seldom stay in Port more than Four, Five, or Six Weeks.

Did you ever take Bills on the Company in England?

Latterly the Company's Treasury was opened so very low, that I preferred taking Home an Investment of Goods to Bills drawn at the Rate of 4s. 3d. and 4s. 4d. a Dollar, and lately 4s.

What Quality of Tea have you generally brought Home in your Investment on your own Account?

That depends entirely on the Fancy of the Individual; my Purser, who is a Man of Business, had a great Fancy for Pekoe Tea, which is a scented Black Tea; Four Fifths of Pekoe and One Fifth of Hyson or Gunpowder is what I have generally brought Home.

Has it been generally a better or an inferior Quality as compared with the Company's Teas?

The Staple Teas of the Company's are certainly better; but those I purchased are Fancy Teas which the Company would not meddle with; they are beneath their Notice; they are in small Quantities in the Market.

It was your Interest, having but a limited Amount of Tonnage, to purchase those Teas which were of higher Value?

I purchased those that I thought would give me the best Profit.

Have you found, in the Course of your Experience, any Change in the Taste of the Public here as to Teas, which has induced you to make any Change in your Investment?

In the Four Voyages I have been a Commander I have generally dealt in the fine Green and scented Black Teas; others have fallen into my Steps during the last Voyage, and the Price of those Teas rose very much in Canton; it is merely a Speculation.

You say that that Part of the Investment which consisted of English Manufactures you disposed of in the Ports of India in preference to China?

I thought I could make a better Sale in India, compared with China; and besides which, there was another Opportunity of turning the Capital between India and China.

Have you ever carried any English Manufactures to China?

A very small Quantity.

When you did so, did you find it easy to dispose of them?

They were some I could not get rid of in Bengal, or in the short Time I stopped at Sincapore; so I took them as a forlorn Hope to China.

What did they consist of?

It was a few Bales of coloured Handkerchiefs.

Did you dispose of them to a Profit in China?

No; reckoning the Dollar at 4s. there was no Profit; I did not get Prime Cost.

Did you ever take any Woollens?

No.

In respect to that you disposed of in India, was it a Description of Articles for the Use of the Europeans or of the Natives?

The Piece Goods were chiefly for the Native Consumption; it was Manufactured Cottons.

The rest of the Investment consisted of Articles for the Europeans?

Yes; in a Variety of Cloths, and a Variety of Shop Articles.

Do you know of any other Officers of your Ship, or Commanders, who have taken out any Woollen Goods to China?

[713]

I have heard of several; but we keep our own Transactions a good deal to ourselves; I think there is not much open Communication between us as to what we are doing. I am aware that they have done it, but I cannot say what Profit they have made by it.

The Ship in which you sailed, the Waterloo, was of 1,300 Tons?

Yes, it was.

What was the Rate of Freight of your Ship?

She is one of the Company's own Ships; they put a nominal Freight upon her; I believe the Average of the Season in which she was built; I have but little Knowledge of the Freight and Charges; my Duty is to sail the Ship as economically as I can, and obey the Company's Orders.

Are the Company's own Ships equipped in the same Way as those they hire?

Yes.

Is that Equipment more complete than that of a Man-of-War, going on so long a Voyage?

I should think not. The Ships are well found, but not more amply than necessary. I have only had the Command of a Ship since the Peace, and I have been fortunate enough to make very good Passages, and there has been a Surplus of Provisions left at the End of it; but considering the length of the Voyage, and the Uncertainty of Wind and Weather, there were no more than were requisite for the Voyage.

What is the Number of the Men?

One hundred and thirty-five Men; that is, One hundred and thirty, and Five to cover Casualties; and Five Marine Boys.

What is the Number of Guns?

Twenty-six Guns.

Of what Calibre were they?

Twenty Eighteen-pounders; not long Eighteens; they are about Six Feet Six Inches long; what we call the Middle Class Gun— the Ship Gun; and Six Thirty-two Pound Carronades.

With that Number of Men, could you have fought both Sides of that Ship in Action?

I am afraid not.

Could you have fought One Side if it had been blowing fresh?

I hope we could.

To what sized Privateer or Man-of-War should you have considered yourself equal in point of Strength?

I should hope we should have been able to compete with a Privateer of equal Number of Guns, being higher up in the Water than they are.

In a heavy Sea?

Yes, I should think so.

Would not a Privateer have had Guns of much smaller Calibre if she had Twenty-six Guns?

I think several of the French Privateers in the late War had One or Two long Guns, and they had an Advantage over our Ships on that Account.

Do you know of any Privateer of Twenty-six Guns carrying Eighteen-pounders?

I think the Blonde was probably Twenty-six, or she might carry Thirty; she had Eighteen-pounders. I think they would prefer a long Gun or Two, that they might disable a Ship at a long Distance, without coming to close Action.

If any Privateer with which you have been engaged had had Guns of a very much smaller Calibre than you had, would not you have a very great Advantage over her from your Height in the Water?

Yes, if she came within Reach of us.

[714]

What are the Duties paid upon a Ship of 1,300 Tons at Canton?

Rather more than 4,000 Ounces of Silver; about One Pound a Ton, I think it is, in round Numbers.

What Proportion of that Sum of 4,000 Ounces of Silver is paid for the Ship, without reference to her Size?

Nineteen hundred and fifty Tales; that is what is called Cumshaw, which is given generally for all Ships, without any Allusion to her Size.

That is the same on all Ships?

I believe it is the same on all Ships.

With that Exception, the Duty is according to the Measurement?

Yes; it is a peculiar Mode of Measurement.

As regards that Mode of Measurement, do you apprehend that the Portion of Duty which is paid upon the Size of the Ship is greater in proportion upon a smaller Ship than it is upon a larger one?

The Returns shew that it is; on a Ship of 1,300 Tons it amounts to 1l. a Ton, on a 500 Ton Ship about 2l. a Ton, the entire Port Charges.

The Question refers to that Portion of the Port Charges which depends upon the Measurement of the Ship?

I suppose it would come to Double.

That would be in proportion to the Size of the respective Vessels?

It is partly in proportion to the Number of Tons, for there is a greater Space unmeasured in a large than a small.

Is that Proportion unmeasured in proportion to the Size of the Ship?

The Distance from our Fore-mast to the Bows, which is unmeasured, and from the Mizen-mast to the Taffrail, is Double what it is in a small Ship; then the Depth of the Hold is Seventeen Feet instead of Twelve, that is not measured; which makes the Charges on a small Ship Double.

If the one is 500 Tons, and the other 1,000 Tons, they would be the same per Ton?

The Company's Ships of 1,300 Tons bring Home on an Average, including Private Trade, 1,500 Tons of Tea; Average Charge for Measurement in China, 2,300 Tales; Cumshaw, 1,950 Tales; Total Charge, 4,250 Tales; not quite 1l. per Ton (3 Tales). The Surrey of 443 Tons:—Charge for Measurement, 1,253 Tales; Cumshaw, 1,950 Tales; Total, 3,203 Tales; about 7¼ Tales or 2l. 10s. per Ton. The Earl Spencer of 521 Tons:—Charge for Measurement, 1,511 Tales, and 1,950 Tales Cumshaw, making 3,461 Tales, (6²/3 Tales) 2l. 4s. per Ton.

In making that Calculation you include the Cumshaw?

Yes; every thing.

What is the Difference in Freight between a Ship of 500 Tons and a Ship of 1,200 Tons?

There are Three Ships which have performed their Six Voyages with nearly a full Equipment, at 18l. 19s. per Ton.

What would be the Freight of a Ship of 500 Tons?

The last Tender for Four Ships was 13l 18s.

Was that Tender for the circuitous or the direct Voyage?

The direct Voyage.

The Difference therefore is 5l. between a Ship of 500 Tons and that of 1,200 Tons?

Yes.

Deduct the 1l. for the Difference of Duties, and the Difference would still be 4l. between the large and the small Ship?

Yes.

[715]

As an Indian Merchant, should you prefer sending your Goods to China by a small or a large Ship?

I am afraid, in a pecuniary point of view, I must yield in favour of the small; but there are Advantages in favour of the large Ship which I think may counterbalance whatever Difference there may be in a pecuniary point of view; they are more roomy, healthy, and are good Sea Boats, easily manageable, and imposing in their Appearance; they carry a Surgeon and a Surgeon's Assistant: the Company's Instructions, and the Mode of victualling, all shew an Attention to the Comforts of the Seamen that a small Ship does not possess, and worthy a great Commercial Nation.

All those Circumstances would induce a Person to go to China in a large Ship rather than a small one; but would that induce a Merchant to send his Goods in a large Ship rather than a small one?

I am afraid that the Merchants now are obliged to cut very close, and certainly the small Ship is the lowest in Expence.

Are the large China Ships Frigate-built, or are they built for the Purpose of carrying Tea?

They are built with a Poop; but in the Model of the Ship it is intended to carry a very large Cargo.

In point of sailing, would they compete with a Vessel built for War?

The Waterloo is a very fast-sailing Ship. I have been in Company with Vessels of War, and we made a very good Figure; we like a good strong Breeze. I came Home in Twenty-one Days from the Line, and we averaged 200 Miles, and I have run 260 Miles by Observation; it is not a bad-sailing Ship which can do that.

Are the large China Ships under masted in consequence of the small Number of Men on board?

We are fully masted.

Are your Masts as large as they would be if the Vessel was wanted for War?

I think as large as the Vessel would bear; as large as she ought to have.

Do you apprehend there are great Advantages in the Shipment of Tea in a large Vessel over a small one?

The Tea is taken in with Quickness, and stowed at once without being moved. After forming the Level of the Hold, which is called the Ground Tier, it is then all simple, and will take near Fifteen hundred Chests in One Level; it is very quickly done, for it is only placing them and screwing them close. The upper Part of the Hold requires more Time; Two Chops one Day, and One Chop another, are what is considered fair Work, doing Justice to the Ship, and taking as much as we can; we could take more, perhaps, but with Risk of losing Stowage.

Can you embark your Cargo in a large Ship quicker than a small one?

I think we could.

Could you fill a Vessel of 1,200 Tons as quickly as one of 500?

No, I think not in the same Time; but I think we can do it in a less Time proportionably.

Sooner than Two Ships of 500 Tons?

Yes.

You could load a 1,200 Ton Ship in the same Time as a 500 Ton Ship nearly?

I have no doubt of that.

What Time does it take to load your Ship?

We could do it in a Fortnight; the forming the Level takes the greatest Time; after that is complete, the Chests of Tea being of the same Size, they are soon placed.

[716]

If you were to bring Home Tea from China as a Merchant, should you prefer bringing it in a large to bringing it in a small one?

Yes, certainly, at nearly the same Freight.

You think that the Tea would come Home in a better State?

I think probably it would; I should prefer it myself; but Tea is a Cargo which does not damage much.

You have stated that the Company take a Duty of 25 per Cent. on the Sale Price of Teas sold at their Sales; what Duty do they take on the Sale Price of Silks and other Chinese Articles?

It is a very small Per-centage on Silk; I am not exactly aware what it is; the net Amount of Sale is given to us at the India House after those Charges are deducted.

Not more, probably, than to cover the Expences of the Warehousing and Sale?

No, I think not; and the Expence of repacking, and so on.

Are you aware that a considerable Quantity of the Privilege Tea has been refused by the Buyers at the recent Sales at the India House?

That is the Tea, I suppose, which has been bought from the Outside Merchants; Men of not very good Capital; needy Men, who have given a higher Price for the Outward Investment; some of them require much Caution as to what you take in Return, or they will sell you a bad Article.

Then you conceive that to be rejected on account of its being of bad Quality?

Yes; or not Tea at all, some of it, I believe.

Are you aware that the Quantity rejected has increased very much of late Years?

No, I was not aware of that; I have never had any rejected.

What do you consider it to be, if it was not Tea?

Sloe Leaves and other Leaves; not Leaves of the Tea. I understood some of it was so bad it was not permitted to be sold.

It appears that in the Year 1823–4 8,347 lbs only of Private Trade Tea were refused by the Buyers; that the following Year 184,640 lbs. of Tea was refused by the Buyers of the Private Trade Tea; your Inference is, that that must have been in consequence of the inferior Quality of the Tea?

I have no doubt of that.

Are you acquainted with the Manner in which the Americans conduct their Trade at Canton?

We see them at Canton, but we have not any great Intercourse with them.

Do you know whether they purchase of the Outside Merchants?

I believe they purchase indiscriminately.

What is the general Class and Size of their Vessels?

They are very handy Vessels, from 400 to 500 Tons.

What Number of Men would a Ship of 500 Tons require?

About Six Men to the Hundred.

Are the American Ships built with reference to the Cargo?

They are generally built handier than the English; their Mode of measuring in America, I believe, is different. Depth is not reckoned in an English Ship; consequently our Ships are built deeper. I think they take Length, Breadth and Depth. In England it is Length, Breadth and Half the Breadth.

Are they more or less convenient for loading a Cargo than ours?

They are quite as convenient, and they are a very fine Class of Ships.

In what Part of the Ship do they take the Depth?

[717]

I suppose the extreme Depth. I do not know whether they take it to the Bottom of the Keel or to the Floor Timber; we take it to the Floor Timber in our Builder's Measurement, but it is not entered into the Registered Tonnage.

Had you any Opportunity of ascertaining the comparative Rate of sailing between our Vessels and the Americans?

I have been in company with them, and have beat them; but I think in light Winds their Vessels would sail better than mine would do.

You have spoken of some bad Tea being included in the Investment of some of the Private Trade; is there much of that adulterated Tea in the Markets of Canton?

I have had so little Intercourse with the Outside Merchants, dealing always with Howqua, that I cannot say; I have heard of a great deal of deteriorated Tea, but it has not come under my own Observation.

Are the Ships engaged in the Country Trade of India fine Ships?

Some of them are very fine Ships, and have been turned over to The East India Company afterwards; some of them taken into His Majesty's Service as Frigates.

Of what Size are the largest?

Twelve hundred Tons.

Are they built at Bombay?

Yes; the Scaleby Castle was built at Bombay.

Do you know at what Rate per Ton they build at Bombay?

No.

Are they as well built as English Ships?

I think they have the Advantage of crooked Timber; I should say they are stronger built.

They are not inferior in any respect?

No; the finest Merchant Ship in the World is the Earl of Balcarras, in the Company's Service, built at Bombay, of Fourteen hundred Tons.

Was she built of Teak?

Yes.

Have you had Occasion to observe the Manner in which those large Ships are managed by Native Sailors?

In warm Weather there is no Sailor more active than the Clashee (the Native Sailor of India); they are not good Helmsmen, and they are not fit for cold Weather; but for the Purpose of Navigation in warm Climates they are as smart and active as any People; they have not the Stamina of a British Sailor, and they require more of them, for their Strength is not equal.

Could they rig as well as the British?

Yes; I have tried them. I have had Main-top Men of one sort, and Fore-top Men of another; and they have taken in the Sail quicker and set it quicker; they are more active and light, and run out on the Yard lighter; a British Sailor carries more Weight with him; One British Sailor would be equal to Two, as far as Weight goes.

How many Men should there be on board a Country Ship of 1,400 Tons?

The Ship's Company of a Country Ship is not encumbered with such a String of Officers as we have in our Company's Ships. There would be Three or Four Officers in one of the large Ships, and One Commander; all the rest would be effective Men; but there should be, I think, about 180 Men; that would be equal to nearly Double our Ship's Company in Number, but not in effective Strength. In the War Time, when the Navy used to press our Men, and we were obliged to take Native Seamen to make up our Complement, we reckoned Two Natives to One European.

Upon the whole, should you consider that a Native Country Ship sails at a cheaper Rate than a British Ship?

[718]

I should think they would while they remained in India, but not when they come to England; the Lascars are not equal to encountering the Cold; they require warm Clothing and better Fare, but in India they live on Rice and a little Fish.

Are the Sails all made in India?

There is an extensive Canvass Manufactory in Bengal; but I have seen some made of European Canvass.

Does that Canvass bear a hard Gale?

It does; but it must be taken great Care of, or it will rot.

What are the comparative Qualities of the English and the Indian Rope?

English Rope is better for all Services, and Indian Rope for some Services. Indian Rope is very good for Tackle-falls, and where it runs through Blocks; it is a light Rope; the English Rope is clogged with Tar, and that oozes out in hot Weather; then there is the Manilla Rope, which is very good if it is kept out of the Rain.

Are the Cables of Indian Rope?

Yes.

Do they keep perfectly well?

Yes; but it requires great Caution; they must be kept dry; they must be often hauled up and exposed to the Sun; they require sprinkling with Salt, and a Variety of Precautions which they are used to in Country Ships.

That Care being taken, is their Canvass and is their Rope so good as our own?

I think not quite.

If you were fitting out a Ship at Bombay for a Voyage to China, should you purchase English or Native Stores?

For the running Rigging, perhaps, from being cheaper, I might have recourse to Country Materials, because it would answer my Purpose for standing Rigging, if I could be certain of its being quite new; but that sent out to India, if left in Store, is apt to get rotten before it comes into Use.

Would you purchase Indian Canvass for your Sails?

No; I think the English would make up in Durability any Difference there might be in Price.

The English Rope is the strongest?

Yes, certainly.

Did it appear to you that a material Improvement could be introduced into the Manufacture of Canvass and Rope in India?

I cannot say, indeed; I have never entered into the Formation of them.

Are they made of Indian Hemp?

Yes.

Are Iron Cables much used?

I had an Iron Cable in the Waterloo the Four Voyages, and scarcely ever let go an Hempen one; I always preferred the Iron one.

You are obliged to have a certain Portion of Europeans on board?

We must have Three Fifths of European British Subjects on board.

Do you imagine it would be essential for the Safety of the Ship in the Time of Peace, that she should be armed in the Manner you have stated?

It is a long Voyage to look forward to, and we can scarcely know what Changes may take place; the Company, in their Wisdom, have said that the Ship shall be effective for whatever may take place; and the Ship could be made equal to warlike Purposes immediately, if necessary.

Putting aside any Purposes of War, as connected with National Disputes, is it necessary for her Safety against Pirates, and so forth, that a Ship should be armed in the Way in which she is?

I think when we consider the Value of her Cargo, and the Company being their own Underwriters, that their Equipment is not greater than might be required to cope with the Pirates we have heard of as cruizing in various Directions.

[719]

Are there any other Particulars in the Equipment of those Ships which in your Opinion might be altered so as to produce more economical sailing?

I can scarcely say; with their present Equipment they are more than well formed; we have been reducing the Stores by degrees, and at present there is no more than they ought to have. The great Objection has been with respect to Two new Cables every Voyage; but when a Cable has been Two Years on the former Voyage, it is not unpleasant to have a new one to stand by in case of a Gale of Wind.

Do you know any Instances in which the small Vessels employed by the Americans have suffered by not having the same Warlike Equipment?

I have merely heard of Instances; I go merely by public Reports; there are several of them have been attacked by Privateers and plundered lately.

Are they not armed?

They have had Two or Four small Guns.

You do know of Instances in which they have been attacked by Privateers and plundered?

Individually I do not; I go by Hearsay. The Saint Helena Schooner was attacked, and her Crew murdered, except some of her Men which stowed themselves away, and who have reported it.

Are there not Dangers of that sort in the Indian Archipelago?

Not of Pirate Ships; they are chiefly Boats. I think there is no Danger to be apprehended from them unless by Surprise, or being obliged to have recourse to Boats. Where the Alceste was lost there was a Portuguese Ship; we sent Boats to see what she was, and the Pirates attacked us in the Boats, but they did not attempt to attack the Ship; they beat us off the Ground once, but on our coming back with a Reinforcement they run away.

Is it your Opinion that those Ships might be navigated with a smaller Number of Officers than they are at present?

I think they might; we have Eight Midshipmen; I do not think they are necessary; but it is a Nursery for young Officers.

How many Officers have you altogether?

A Commander and Six Officers, that is, Six Mates; and Eight Midshipmen, a Surgeon, a Surgeon's Assistant, and a Purser. I think there are almost Forty on the List before we come to the Fore-mast Men; that is, reckoning Caulker, Caulker's Mates, Sail Maker, Cooper, Baker, Butcher and Poulterer, &c.

Do you know how far down in the List you would go in a Manof-War with a Complement of 130 Men, before you come to the Fore-mast Men?

I think about the same.

How do you divide your Watches?

The Officers are divided into Three Watches when we get out of the Channel.

Do you know of any Country Trade Ships having visited any Ports North of Canton?

I have heard of their trying it with Opium; the first that tried it answered, I understand.

Supposing you had no warlike Equipment on board those Vessels, how many Men would be necessary to navigate?

I think, with the Exception of some of her Officers, she requires her whole Crew; the Masts and Yards are large, and she requires a large Number of Men to navigate her.

In Time of Peace, do you conceive that the Danger of Attack from Pirates is considerable in any Ship trading to China?

I think not great. We have lately found the South American Ports sending out Ships well armed; and our Instructions from the Company are to keep our Guns clear, and to exercise Twice a Week.

[720]

Have you ever fallen in with any who could have taken your Ship but for those warlike Preparations?

I think some of them have Ten, Fifteen, and some of them Twenty Guns, with a Number of Men on board, and Desperadoes the whole of them, I believe.

In Time of War, should you conceive that the Ships you have commanded would be able to escape from or contend with any Man-of-War mounting Twenty Guns, well managed and well fought?

A Man-of-War's Equipment will be always superior to that of a Merchant Ship; but I should hope, with proper Attention to training the Ship's Company, we should be able to defend ourselves against nearly an equal Force.

Putting out of the Question that warlike Equipment, you are not of Opinion that any Saving could be made in the Equipment of your Vessels beyond some Reduction in the Number of your Officers?

I think not; I am not aware of any.

The Witness is directed to withdraw.

Ordered, That this Committee be adjourned to this Day Se'nnight, Two o'Clock.